Do Hymns have any revelancy?

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DNB

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My point was never to try to tackle the rationalization of the rapture dream. I know that is too ingrained to resist. My intent was to point out that the early church obviously felt ALL the world would one day worship God, instead of 80% - 90% of Earth's population going to war with Him.
Hi WT, if I am following you correctly, and for the sake of brevity, it sounds like you're professing a post-millennial eschatology? And, if so, I would profoundly disagree. Especially since you were 'required' to go to the works of uninspired men to make your point? i.e. whatever the viewpoint of these men were, whatever doctrinal or denominational background that they held, does not necessarily hold weight in a Biblical discussion. Unless their views are nothing more than supplementing a Biblical testimony. Which, for the moment, you didn't provide. Your argument seems to stem from the fact that since these men, seemingly, appeared to have hope in the current world's move toward a majority Christian populace, therefore it must be the will of God? But, I would think that either the hymn writers were just wrong in their doctrine, or your interpretation of their lyrics are misconstrued. ie They may well have been referring to the time after Christ's return, which I believe that the psalmist clearly was.
In other words, the first scriptural thoughts that come to my mind, especially the minute that you said that your are anticipating 80%-90% of the earth's population to conform to the Gospel of Christ, would be (top of my head);
  • The earth is under a curse since the fall. It needs a complete transformation before it can exemplify the will of God.
  • Many are called, few are chosen. I expect no more that 25% of the world, at any given time, to be the real Church (and my number is probably high, ...consider the remnant of Israel, basically 1 tribe left)
  • Friends with the world, is enemies with Christ. Their is a governing principle that controls and rules the paradigms of this world, and they are antithetical to the laws of Christ. That's why they killed him, and all the other martyrs.
  • Our hope is not in this world. It will soon be destroyed as the stars fall from the sky, the bodies of water turn to blood, the plagues and earthquakes come.
  • Don't lay up your treasures on earth where they suffer decay, corrosion and theft. Our home is in heaven where peace and righteousness reigns.
The only hope that I have in this world, is that God will consider me worthy to suffer for him, and if i'm really blessed, die for him. Excuse the pessimism, and what may appear to be masochism, but that is the Biblical sentiment of all the saints, ...despite what the hymn writers may allegedly feel about the issue. The world is a cesspool, and outside of God's patience in desiring to save as many as he can, the sooner that Christ comes back and destroys it, the less the wickedness will abound. According to the Bible, things will only get worse, not better, right up until the anti-Christ professes himself to be God and leads many astray.

PS. musical instruments are definitely part of praise to God, eg; the psalmist determined what instruments were to be used, David was a harpist, many of the doxologies in the OT were sung while tambourines and horns were played.,
It is not the instrument that determines the acceptability of its inclusion in music to God, but if it is played with reverence or not.
 
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farouk

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Thanks for this post!!! I'm calling my mother right now and asking her to grab one of the old Hymnals, which I think my childhood church is still using. Before they get tossed (hopefully never), I'm going to ask her to give me one for Christmas. ;)


The Lord Jesus Christ ONLY, is Worthy of all our Praise and Worship!
Eternity is a Very long Time!
Hymn lyrics stay with one for a lifetime, right? good to have them memorized...:)
 

Stan B

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Do you feel a person with their guitar cannot know the same closeness?
I don’t know. I have only heard a very few people who could actually play a guitar. Chet Aitkens used to play a guitar, but that was 50 years ago! Just about everyone I have heard can’t play the instrument; they just strum away on it.

Learning to play a musical instrument takes a lot of discipline and hard work. When you consider the world of classical music, of all the great composers, I don’t know of any who wrote anything for a guitar! There is a world of difference between strumming a guitar, and playing something like and organ which you play with both hands and both feet!
 

Willie T

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I don’t know. I have only heard a very few people who could actually play a guitar. Chet Aitkens used to play a guitar, but that was 50 years ago! Just about everyone I have heard can’t play the instrument; they just strum away on it.

Learning to play a musical instrument takes a lot of discipline and hard work. When you consider the world of classical music, of all the great composers, I don’t know of any who wrote anything for a guitar! There is a world of difference between strumming a guitar, and playing something like and organ which you play with both hands and both feet!
So, technical proficiency dictates one's closeness to God? The Pharisees must have been really attuned to God.

Humm…. I seem to recall something being written about simply having the faith of a little child...….

I think we pretty well know where each other is coming from on this subject.
 

Yehren

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the West has been transformed by Christianity

The world has been transformed by Christianity. There is now, except for a few small pockets of hunter-gatherers here an there, a world based on Western Civilization. And that was affected by the rise of a renewed Christian Europe in the late 1300s. People in China live their lives based on the technology, society, and government functions that came out of Christian Europe. Even Marxism would be unthinkable, absent a Christian society for Marx to have lived in. Marxism is essentially a Christian heresy. Ironically, even those who would rebel against Christianity, must do so in a Christian context.

"Vicisti, Galilaee" Reported last words of Julian the Apostate, last non-Christian Roman emperor. ("Galilean, you have won")
 
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Stan B

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So, technical proficiency dictates one's closeness to God? The Pharisees must have been really attuned to God.

Humm…. I seem to recall something being written about simply having the faith of a little child...….

I think we pretty well know where each other is coming from on this subject.

Well, I know where you are coming from: Laodicean Apathy and mediocrity; anything ole' thing is good enough for God. God hates apathy and mediocrity! Scripture says of the church in Laodicea: "I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth." Rev 3:15

I believe that if one really wants to serve God, they will hone their skills as much as possible in the area God has called them to serve.

If you want to remain as a little child instead of growing up, that's your choice. The Apostle Paul tells us about people like that: "I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,"
1 Corinthians 3:2
 

Willie T

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Well, I know where you are coming from: Laodicean Apathy and mediocrity; anything ole' thing is good enough for God. God hates apathy and mediocrity! Scripture says of the church in Laodicea: "I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth." Rev 3:15

I believe that if one really wants to serve God, they will hone their skills as much as possible in the area God has called them to serve.

If you want to remain as a little child instead of growing up, that's your choice. The Apostle Paul tells us about people like that: "I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,"
1 Corinthians 3:2
Your defensiveness is a hoot! That is so pitiful. In your prideful arrogance you sit and shame anyone who cannot attain the perfection you think they should?
 

Stan B

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Your defensiveness is a hoot! That is so pitiful. In your prideful arrogance you sit and shame anyone who cannot attain the perfection you think they should?

I am not at all defensive. I am merely presenting what the Bible says on a subject you broached, and the Bible covers this quite clearly. Since when did quoting Scripture become prideful arrogance?? We have to study to show ourselves approved by God:

"For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15
 

Yehren

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Let me be the first to say that I don't have any problems with a capella hymns. For a very long time, the Church depended on just voices in songs of praise. Gregorian chants make my hair stand up with emotion for the power and goodness of God.


On the other hand, I think that William Booth, founder of the Salvation Army had a good point, when he was criticized for using musical instruments and modern music in worship.

"Why should the devil get all the best tunes?"

Indeed.
 
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Yehren

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I don't think there's a better hymn of love, praise, and innocence than this one:

"Mine is the sunlight, mine is the morning
born of the one light Eden saw play.
Praise with elation, praise every morning
God's re-creation of the new day."
 
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Yehren

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Of course, there are other opinions:

Stryper - "Take it to the Cross"

Not my cup of tea, but whatever leads to Jesus, is a good path.
 

Ezra

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I think one of the themes of the Bible is that God wants nothing to do with worship that He has to beat out of people.
of it has to be beat out of you then its not worship we worship in truth and spirit any thing out side that is flesh.. on a side note. many big churches .has better rock band than CCR :eek:
 
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Earburner

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You have a groupie in me.
I have always been convinced of the anointing on so many of the great old hymns...being Methodist a long while ago ...all Wesley's Hymns bless me ...I can feel the anointing coming upon me by just reading the titles.
View attachment 8060 I believe so many of the great old hymns were birthed through great travail and searching of the soul. Hence the anointing upon them to this day.
Amen Helen!
I wonder if there are any today that are being led by God's Spirit, that can top the work that came through Charles Wesley?
As a UM myself, I immediately recognize the Word of God in Wesley's Hymns, and I am ALWAYS blessed by the Lord's Spirit.

Charles Wesley is best known for his prolific hymn writing, his poetry and for being one of the founding fathers of the Methodist denomination of Christianity. He wrote more than six thousand hymns, of which a handful remain in modern day worship.Aug 6, 2009
upload_2019-12-13_21-26-35.png
BBC - Home › people › ch...
Religions - Christianity: Charles Wesley - BBC
 
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Soverign Grace

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Do you think the songs we sing in church mean much in the way we think about Christianity?
This is a small excerpt from a book none of you will probably ever read:

The whole rise of Western Civilization — science and technology, medicine, the arts, constitutionalism, the jury system, free enterprise, literacy, increasing productivity, a rising standard of living, the high status of women — is attributable to one major fact: the West has been transformed by Christianity. True, the transformation is not yet complete. There are many battles ahead. But the point is that, even in what is still largely an early Christian civilization, God has showered us with blessings.

Many Christians do not realize it, but the Hope is the basis for many of the great old hymns of the faith, written before the modern era of evangelical despair and pessimism. Think about that the next time you sing Martin Luther's "A mighty Fortress is our God," Isaac Watts's "Jesus shall reign where'er the sun doth his successive journeys run," or George Duffield's "Stand up, stand up for Jesus." Do you really believe that Jesus is now leading us "from victory unto victory... till every foe is vanquished, and Christ is Lord indeed"? That is what the Church has historically believed. That is what they sang in their hymns. This can be seen most clearly in the traditional Christmas carols, which, like Athanasius' reflections on the Incarnation, are unabashed expectations of Christ's triumph over the world through the gospel. Carols such as "Come, thou long-expected Jesus," "O come, O come, Emmanuel," "Hark! the herald angels sing," "God rest you merry, gentlemen," and many others are written from the same basic perspective as the present book. The conviction that — as a result of His first advent — Christ is now reigning from heaven and conquering the earth underlies the message of "Joy to the world!":
No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make his blessings flow
Far as the curse is found.
He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of his righteousness
And wonders of his love.

The same is true of that great victory-oriented carol, "It came upon the midnight clear":

For lo, the days are hast'ning on,
By prophet bards foretold,
When with the ever-circling years
Comes round the age of gold;
When peace shall over all the earth
Its ancient splendors fling,
And the whole world give back the song
Which now the angels sing.

The Psalms: Our Hymnbook of Dominion
There is a very important connection between the Church's worldview and the Church's hymns. If your heart and mouth are filled with songs of victory, you will tend to have an eschatology of dominion; if, instead, your songs are fearful, expressing a longing for escape — or if they are weak, childish ditties — your worldview and expectations will be escapist and childish.

Historically, the basic hymnbook for the Church has been the Book of Psalms. The largest book of the Bible is the Book of Psalms, and God providentially placed it right in the middle of the Bible, so that we couldn't miss it! Yet how many churches use the Psalms in musical worship? It is noteworthy that the Church's abandonment of dominion eschatology coincided with the Church's abandonment of the Psalms.


The Psalms are inescapably Kingdom-oriented. They are full of conquest, victory, and the dominion of the saints. They remind us constantly of the warfare between God and Satan, they incessantly call us to do battle against the forces of evil, and they promise us that we shall inherit the earth. When the Church sang the Psalms — not just little snatches of them, but comprehensively, through the whole Psalter — she was strong, healthy, aggressive, and could not be stopped. That is why the devil has sought to keep us from singing the Psalms, to rob us of our inheritance. If we are to recapture the eschatology of dominion, we must reform the Church; and a crucial aspect of that reformation should be a return to the singing of Psalms. Listen to the historic hymns of the victorious Church:

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before Thee. (Ps. 22:27)


For evildoers will be cut off,
But those who wait for the LORD, they will inherit the earth.
Yet a little while, and the wicked man will be no more;
And you will look carefully for his place, and he will not be.
But the meek will inherit the earth,
And will delight themselves in abundant prosperity.(Ps. 37:9-11)

Come, behold the works of the LORD,
Who has wrought desolations in the earth.
He makes wars to cease to the end of the earth;
He breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two;
He burns the chariots with fire.
Cease striving and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth. (Ps. 46:8-10)

0 clap your hands, all peoples;
Shout to God with the voice of joy.
For the LORD Most High is to be feared,
A great King over all the earth.
He subdues peoples under us,
And nations under our feet. (Ps. 47:1-3)

All the earth will worship Thee,
And will sing praises to Thee;
They will sing praises to Thy name. (Ps. 66:4)

He will rule from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.
The nomads of the desert will bow before Him;
And His enemies will lick the dust.
The kings of Tarshish and of the islands will bring presents;
The kings of Sheba and Seba will offer gifts.
All kings will bow down before Him;
All nations will serve Him. (Ps. 72:8-11)

All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, 0 LORD;
And they shall glorify Thy name. (Ps. 86:9)

All the kings of the earth will give thanks to Thee, 0 LORD, When they have heard the words of Thy mouth. And they will sing of the ways of the LORD; For great is the glory of the LORD. (Ps. 138:4-5)

Let the godly ones exult in glory;
Let them sing for joy on their beds.
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
And a two-edged sword in their hand,
To execute vengeance on the nations,
And punishment on the peoples;
To bind their kings with chains,
And their nobles with fetters of iron;
To execute on them the judgment written;
This is an honor for all His godly ones.
Praise the LORD! (Ps. 149:5-9)

There have been times throughout my Christian walk when I've been grateful for the hymns. I remember reading "Amazing Grace" early on and how true it was in my own life. "I once was blind but now I see" held a lot of spiritual meaning for me because it tells of our pre and post saved condition and the truth of the verse:

2 Corinthians 4:4

“In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

So I have been grateful for those saints of old who had the wisdom to put thoughts to paper.
 
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Windmillcharge

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Do you think the songs we sing in church mean much in the way we think about Christianity?

They should as they are a large part of our worship.

Most of the songs we sing should be theologically accurate and the music should be played sensitivly according to the need of the service.

If your church doesn't do this ask why and if no answer is supplied think about leaving.
 

3rdAngel

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Do you think the songs we sing in church mean much in the way we think about Christianity?
This is a small excerpt from a book none of you will probably ever read:

The whole rise of Western Civilization — science and technology, medicine, the arts, constitutionalism, the jury system, free enterprise, literacy, increasing productivity, a rising standard of living, the high status of women — is attributable to one major fact: the West has been transformed by Christianity. True, the transformation is not yet complete. There are many battles ahead. But the point is that, even in what is still largely an early Christian civilization, God has showered us with blessings.

Many Christians do not realize it, but the Hope is the basis for many of the great old hymns of the faith, written before the modern era of evangelical despair and pessimism. Think about that the next time you sing Martin Luther's "A mighty Fortress is our God," Isaac Watts's "Jesus shall reign where'er the sun doth his successive journeys run," or George Duffield's "Stand up, stand up for Jesus." Do you really believe that Jesus is now leading us "from victory unto victory... till every foe is vanquished, and Christ is Lord indeed"? That is what the Church has historically believed. That is what they sang in their hymns. This can be seen most clearly in the traditional Christmas carols, which, like Athanasius' reflections on the Incarnation, are unabashed expectations of Christ's triumph over the world through the gospel. Carols such as "Come, thou long-expected Jesus," "O come, O come, Emmanuel," "Hark! the herald angels sing," "God rest you merry, gentlemen," and many others are written from the same basic perspective as the present book. The conviction that — as a result of His first advent — Christ is now reigning from heaven and conquering the earth underlies the message of "Joy to the world!":
No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make his blessings flow
Far as the curse is found.
He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of his righteousness
And wonders of his love.

The same is true of that great victory-oriented carol, "It came upon the midnight clear":

For lo, the days are hast'ning on,
By prophet bards foretold,
When with the ever-circling years
Comes round the age of gold;
When peace shall over all the earth
Its ancient splendors fling,
And the whole world give back the song
Which now the angels sing.

The Psalms: Our Hymnbook of Dominion
There is a very important connection between the Church's worldview and the Church's hymns. If your heart and mouth are filled with songs of victory, you will tend to have an eschatology of dominion; if, instead, your songs are fearful, expressing a longing for escape — or if they are weak, childish ditties — your worldview and expectations will be escapist and childish.

Historically, the basic hymnbook for the Church has been the Book of Psalms. The largest book of the Bible is the Book of Psalms, and God providentially placed it right in the middle of the Bible, so that we couldn't miss it! Yet how many churches use the Psalms in musical worship? It is noteworthy that the Church's abandonment of dominion eschatology coincided with the Church's abandonment of the Psalms.


The Psalms are inescapably Kingdom-oriented. They are full of conquest, victory, and the dominion of the saints. They remind us constantly of the warfare between God and Satan, they incessantly call us to do battle against the forces of evil, and they promise us that we shall inherit the earth. When the Church sang the Psalms — not just little snatches of them, but comprehensively, through the whole Psalter — she was strong, healthy, aggressive, and could not be stopped. That is why the devil has sought to keep us from singing the Psalms, to rob us of our inheritance. If we are to recapture the eschatology of dominion, we must reform the Church; and a crucial aspect of that reformation should be a return to the singing of Psalms. Listen to the historic hymns of the victorious Church:

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before Thee. (Ps. 22:27)


For evildoers will be cut off,
But those who wait for the LORD, they will inherit the earth.
Yet a little while, and the wicked man will be no more;
And you will look carefully for his place, and he will not be.
But the meek will inherit the earth,
And will delight themselves in abundant prosperity.(Ps. 37:9-11)

Come, behold the works of the LORD,
Who has wrought desolations in the earth.
He makes wars to cease to the end of the earth;
He breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two;
He burns the chariots with fire.
Cease striving and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth. (Ps. 46:8-10)

0 clap your hands, all peoples;
Shout to God with the voice of joy.
For the LORD Most High is to be feared,
A great King over all the earth.
He subdues peoples under us,
And nations under our feet. (Ps. 47:1-3)

All the earth will worship Thee,
And will sing praises to Thee;
They will sing praises to Thy name. (Ps. 66:4)

He will rule from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.
The nomads of the desert will bow before Him;
And His enemies will lick the dust.
The kings of Tarshish and of the islands will bring presents;
The kings of Sheba and Seba will offer gifts.
All kings will bow down before Him;
All nations will serve Him. (Ps. 72:8-11)

All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, 0 LORD;
And they shall glorify Thy name. (Ps. 86:9)

All the kings of the earth will give thanks to Thee, 0 LORD, When they have heard the words of Thy mouth. And they will sing of the ways of the LORD; For great is the glory of the LORD. (Ps. 138:4-5)

Let the godly ones exult in glory;
Let them sing for joy on their beds.
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
And a two-edged sword in their hand,
To execute vengeance on the nations,
And punishment on the peoples;
To bind their kings with chains,
And their nobles with fetters of iron;
To execute on them the judgment written;
This is an honor for all His godly ones.
Praise the LORD! (Ps. 149:5-9)

Hi Will, I think for me the Hymns are great, especially if we believe the words of some of the Hymns they are like a prayer of praise to God. I am not saying every Hymn is like this and there are some better than others in my view. I am sure you have some you like best right?
 
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quietthinker

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Then I am certain that you must agree that has to pertain to ANY instrument..... wailing electric guitar, included?
I can use a knife to cut my carrots or to kill a man. I can use my tongue to praise God or to curse him.
Musical instruments are no different.
Music and songs are to be elevating, to raise us above the secular. To transport us to realms of hope with the vision of the beauty of righteousness.
 
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Stan B

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Amen Helen!
I wonder if there are any today that are being led by God's Spirit, that can top the work that came through Charles Wesley?
These days, about all we have left are the Gaithers, and their magnificent hymns.

My family has a great affinity with Charles' brother John, who in 1750 visited our Palatine family colony while they temporarily resided in Ireland. Having accepted the message of John Wesely, went on to build the first Methodist Church in America, on John Street, New York in 1786. And then migrating to Canada, built the first Methodist churches in Canada