The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

Philip James · Dec 12, 2019

Taken said:
The New Heart and New spirit of a man IS a Gift.

Hello Taken,

And do you think God would refuse this gift to the children of His children when they ask for it in Faith?

Our Father hears the prayers of His children, and will not leave our children in darkness..

For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.

Peace be with you!

Bill Sterling · Dec 12, 2019

Berserk said:
Please initially respond to these 13 question on the basis of your best instincts rather than from what you perceive the Bible to teach. Subsequently, I will address all 13 questions from a biblical perspective and then you will be encouraged to respond to the cited biblical texts. The questions are relevant to the debate over universal salvation, but this thread is only intended to apply them to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and, more broadly, to the question of ultimate release from Hell. And no, I'm not a Catholic; I'm an Evangelical.

13 PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE POST-MORTEM STATE OF THE DAMMED:

(1) At the moment of postmortem survival, do we retain the same basic moral character that we developed in this life?
(2) Would many carnal Christians be unable to live in a sin-free heavenly realm?
(3) Does Jesus' principle that like attracts like in the afterlife make many professing Christians unsuitable company for the saints in Heaven?
(4) Might not Hell be a realm of both reformative justice and retributive justice?
(5) Because of their secular upbringing or negative life experience, millions of people have heard the Gospel with no conviction that it is true. Is it just to send them to eternal conscious torment because their spiritual intuition is fatally flawed?
(6) Can anyone do enough in our brief sojourn on Earth to merit eternal conscious torment with no chance of postmortem redemption?
(7) If there are multiple Heavens and Hells with different levels, might not continual progress be made from one level to another?
(8) How does the concept of pure unconditional divine love apply to those in eternal conscious postmortem torment?
(9) If denizens of Hell sincerely wanted to repent, rise into God's loving presence, and be spiritually transformed, would a loving God deny them that opportunity?
(10) What keeps sinners in Hell--God, Satan, or the sinners themselves?
(11) Shall the will of an omnipotent God to save everyone be eternally thwarted?
(12) Is it reasonable to assume that no soul retrievals from Hell would ever be attempted?
(13) Could Heaven truly be a realm of bliss for the redeemed if they knew that close family members and other loved ones were confined to eternal conscious torment?

Bill Sterling · Dec 12, 2019

Berserk said:
Please initially respond to these 13 question on the basis of your best instincts rather than from what you perceive the Bible to teach. Subsequently, I will address all 13 questions from a biblical perspective and then you will be encouraged to respond to the cited biblical texts. The questions are relevant to the debate over universal salvation, but this thread is only intended to apply them to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and, more broadly, to the question of ultimate release from Hell. And no, I'm not a Catholic; I'm an Evangelical.

13 PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE POST-MORTEM STATE OF THE DAMMED:

(1) At the moment of postmortem survival, do we retain the same basic moral character that we developed in this life?
(2) Would many carnal Christians be unable to live in a sin-free heavenly realm?
(3) Does Jesus' principle that like attracts like in the afterlife make many professing Christians unsuitable company for the saints in Heaven?
(4) Might not Hell be a realm of both reformative justice and retributive justice?
(5) Because of their secular upbringing or negative life experience, millions of people have heard the Gospel with no conviction that it is true. Is it just to send them to eternal conscious torment because their spiritual intuition is fatally flawed?
(6) Can anyone do enough in our brief sojourn on Earth to merit eternal conscious torment with no chance of postmortem redemption?
(7) If there are multiple Heavens and Hells with different levels, might not continual progress be made from one level to another?
(8) How does the concept of pure unconditional divine love apply to those in eternal conscious postmortem torment?
(9) If denizens of Hell sincerely wanted to repent, rise into God's loving presence, and be spiritually transformed, would a loving God deny them that opportunity?
(10) What keeps sinners in Hell--God, Satan, or the sinners themselves?
(11) Shall the will of an omnipotent God to save everyone be eternally thwarted?
(12) Is it reasonable to assume that no soul retrievals from Hell would ever be attempted?
(13) Could Heaven truly be a realm of bliss for the redeemed if they knew that close family members and other loved ones were confined to eternal conscious torment?

Bill Sterling · Dec 13, 2019

In Matthew 28, Jesus says "All authority is given to me in Heaven and in earth."
He gave many authoritative statements about heaven, hell, and the outer darkness.
But THE relevant scripture is the final conditions of Lazarus and of the rich man, in Luke 16.

Taken · Dec 13, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
According to BOTH passages of Scripture I presented - you're dead wrong.
Neithe passage mentions YOUR imposed prerequisite of age OR repentance.

STUDY your Bible . . .

LOL...

God Does Require Heartful Belief BEFORE a humans spirit is Born Again.

Repent...is to be sorry FOR having NOT believed.

Belief...in ones heart is WHAT a person CONFESSES.

I did not mention AGE. I mentioned a BABY,
Who neither has the Knowledge or Reasoning to Repent or Confess Belief.

You testified YOU, neither Repented or Confessed Belief WHEN YOU CLAIMED YOUR "parents" had you BAPTIZED with water and Further, THAT is WHEN YOU claimed YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT "as" a BABY.

You are dead Wrong...AS USUAL.

As a baby...
You did not Repent. You did not Confess,
You already testified You were Completely UNAWARE of your supposed water baptism.

You were taught a lie and you repeat the lie you were taught...about yourself, about Mary as well.

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · Dec 13, 2019

Philip James said:
Hello Taken,

And do you think God would refuse this gift to the children of His children when they ask for it in Faith?

THEY...being the parents, asking for the Lords 'gift' of salvation FOR the parents children...

The Lord 'OFFERS' His Gift of Salvation "TO" individuals.

Why do you EXPAND individuals to Include a "3rd" party?

What Scripture taught you, a 3rd party (ie in this case the Parent) is "included" for an "offering" and "receiving" of a Gift from the Lord to an individual ?

Our Father hears the prayers of His children,

Sure God hears the prayers of Believers.

So what are you implying, your prayer to God IS...?
That:
1) He will cause your child to be interested to hear His Word? Choose to Follow Him? Elect to Confess belief IN Him?
OR
2) That He will instantly give your child Salvation, whether or not they Believe and they Confess?

Can you answer?

and will not leave our children in darkness..

Darkness? What Darkness specific?
Scripture you reference please?

For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call

Click to expand...

.

The Promise? Which Promise? Scripture please?

Peace be with you!

Thank you, and to you also.

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · Dec 13, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
Sooooooo, where is the "implied" evidence of the Ethiopian Eunuch's repentance, hmmmm?
Acts 8:36-38
As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

Nice try . . .

Scripture Reveals FACTS:
...Apostles Preached about Jesus IN Jerusalem.
...the Eunuch from Ethiopia went to Jerusalem to Worship.
...Jerusalem is WHERE men went to WORSHIP God.
...the Eunuch could READ.
...the Eunuch HAD a copy of Scripture.
...the Eunuch was Reading the Scripture of Isaiah

The IMPLICATION is:
...the Eunuch became AWARE that Salvation was a gift to men FROM GOD, FOR belief IN Jesus the Christ, THROUGH Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The FACT is:
...Philip encountered the Eunuch.
...The Eunuch inquired of Philip HOW HE COULD BECOME Baptized.

The IMPLICATION is:
...the Eunuch WANTED to be Baptized.

The Fact is;
...The Lord God Knows a mans Heart...of Regret, Repentance, Confession, Joy

The Fact is:
...The Eunuch Confessed His Belief To Philip.

The Fact is:
...Philip Baptized the Eunuch with Water.

The Implication is:
...The Eunuch Received the indwelling Gift of the Holy Spirit.

No one SEES a person Receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit....
But Based ON THE FACTS, of a person...it is IMPLIED a person HAS received the Holy Spirit...

YOU, make up implications, when there are NONE.
YOU, make up facts, when there are NONE.

IF YOU try really hard, you might be able to comprehend the differences between;
Fact, Implication & Fiction.

The True Facts concering Mary are...
She was naturally born in SIN...as Scripture teaches APPLIES to all born out of the Earth.
She was IN NEED of a Savior...as Scripture teaches APPLIES to all born out of the Earth.
She was OFFERED the Gift of Salvation...as Scripture teaches APPLIES to all born out of the Earth.
AFTER Jesus Bodily Ascended BACK UP to Heaven...

According to THE "FACTS" in Scripture...
At a Gathering ... the Apostles, many disciples and including Mary...

Mary ACCEPTED Jesus as Her Savior.
Mary ACCEPTED the Gift of Salvation.
Mary RECEIVED the Gift(S) "OF" the Holy Spirit AND the indwelling "OF" the Holy Spirit.

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · Dec 13, 2019

Bill Sterling said:
In Matthew 28, Jesus says "All authority is given to me in Heaven and in earth."
He gave many authoritative statements about heaven, hell, and the outer darkness.
But THE relevant scripture is the final conditions of Lazarus and of the rich man, in Luke 16.

Hi Bill. Welcome.

Will agree...Luke 16 has a powerful revelation.

Glory to God,
Taken

epostle · Dec 13, 2019

shnarkle said:
Would you, or the Catholic church then conclude that Mary is in no way in need of salvation?

We don't. Mary needed salvation as much as any body else. She even said so herself. "My spirit rejoices in God my Savior". We can quibble about WHEN she was saved until the cows come. God didn't NEED to make Mary sinless, He CHOSE to. That is Catholic teaching that you have deliberately CHOSEN to reject, or you do so out of ignorance or blind prejudice.

If she is sinless, Christ's sacrifice is of no use to her whatsoever, correc t?

This is a lie from the pit of hell. Simeon's prophecy that a sword will pierce her soul means more to Catholics than text.

She is saved simply by divine fiat from God.

Wrong again. A "fiat" comes from humans. Mary's fiat starts in Luke 1:38. God's divine words were DELIVERED by a high ranking angel. Words that come to us from eternity into temporal time. God doesn't say "YES" to himself, that's absurd, and your avatar nauseates me.

This poses a dilemma in that if that's all God had to do, then why not do that with everyone?

Because not everyone gives physical birth to a divine Messiah. If you deny the Incarnation, you have no business being here.

A pro-abort Christian is a contradiction in terms.

reformed1689 · Dec 13, 2019

epostle said:
We don't. Mary needed salvation as much as any body else. She even said so herself. "My spirit rejoices in God my Savior". We can quibble about WHEN she was saved until the cows come. God didn't NEED to make Mary sinless, He CHOSE to. That is Catholic teaching that you have deliberately CHOSE to reject, or you so out of ignorance or blind prejudice.

If she was sinless, what did she need salvation from?

BreadOfLife · Dec 13, 2019

David Taylor said:
I've already shown you, you dismiss it, that's your choice, but I have shown you it is there.

No, you haven't.
Show me the verse that shows he repented.

Just because you claim he did doesn't make it so. You must show the Scriptural evidence.

BreadOfLife · Dec 13, 2019

Taken said:
That's your deflective claim, you identify the chapter and verse.

LOL

Glory To God,
Taken

I'm not the one who is claiming that the Ethiopian Eunuch repented. @David Taylor is.

Pay attention . . .

reformed1689 · Dec 13, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
No, you haven't.
Show me the verse that shows he repented.

Just because you claim he did doesn't make it so. You must show the Scriptural evidence.

I already have....twice.....

shnarkle · Dec 13, 2019

epostle said:
We don't. Mary needed salvation as much as any body else. She even said so herself. "My spirit rejoices in God my Savior".

Good point! So what is this subtle distinction you are making between Mary being sinless, yet still needing salvation? Christ was also sinless, yet he didn't need to save himself, did he? What's the difference?

We can quibble about WHEN she was saved until the cows come.

Perhaps you can. I doubt you will get anyone who really thinks it's much of a point to begin with. So this seems to suggest that Mary wasn't born sinless, or it doesn't matter if she was born sinless, she was still in need of salvation for some other reason?

God didn't NEED to make Mary sinless, He CHOSE to.

Yeah, we got that already. The question is why not choose to make everyone sinless?

That is Catholic teaching that you have deliberately CHOSEN to reject, or you do so out of ignorance or blind prejudice.

It is Catholic teaching that you have refused to defend. You do so out of ignorance or blind prejudice.

This is a lie from the pit of hell.

If there's anyone who would know, it would have to be you.

Simeon's prophecy that a sword will pierce her soul means more to Catholics than text.

Given that Simeon's prophecy is also recorded text, I would only ask why one passage of text suggests to Catholics that other passages are less relevant?

A "fiat" comes from humans.

Not divine fiat.

Mary's fiat starts in Luke 1:38. God's divine words were DELIVERED by a high ranking angel. Words that come to us from eternity into temporal time.

Are you going to make a point?

God doesn't say "YES" to himself, that's absurd,

Again, is there some sort of point you think you're making here?

and your avatar nauseates me.

You're nausea is self induced, and undoubtedly due to your own inability to comprehend a simple meme defending a woman's right to defend herself.

Because not everyone gives physical birth to a divine Messiah.

And even Mary wouldn't have to if God simply chose to create people sinless.

If you deny the Incarnation, you have no business being here.

You seem to have an affinity for Strawman arguments. Where did I deny the incarnation?

A pro-abort Christian is a contradiction in terms.

No doubt about it. You can't understand a simple meme. Why doesn't that surprise me? Let me give you a piece of advice. Try to respond to what is actually posted instead of what your wildly irrelevant imagination fabricates.

BreadOfLife · Dec 13, 2019

Taken said:
LOL...

God Does Require Heartful Belief BEFORE a humans spirit is Born Again.

Repent...is to be sorry FOR having NOT believed.

Belief...in ones heart is WHAT a person CONFESSES.

I did not mention AGE. I mentioned a BABY,
Who neither has the Knowledge or Reasoning to Repent or Confess Belief.

You testified YOU, neither Repented or Confessed Belief WHEN YOU CLAIMED YOUR "parents" had you BAPTIZED with water and Further, THAT is WHEN YOU claimed YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT "as" a BABY.

You are dead Wrong...AS USUAL.

As a baby...
You did not Repent. You did not Confess,
You already testified You were Completely UNAWARE of your supposed water baptism.

You were taught a lie and you repeat the lie you were taught...about yourself, about Mary as well.

Glory to God,
Taken

Sooooooo, let me get this straight.

You anti-Catholics constantly deny Mary’s sinlessness based on Rom. 3:10, which says:
“There is NONE righteous”.

The Catholic position on this verse ALL along on has been that it is not talking about “everybody” because babies cannot sin.

You anti-Catholic, however, reject this idea and say that they are included because they DO sin.
NOW, you’re telling me that they can’t have faith – but they CAN sin??

This is the kind of contradictory nonsense that makes it so easy to SINK your arguments . . .

reformed1689 · Dec 13, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
The Catholic position on this verse ALL along on has been that it is not talking about “everybody” because babies cannot sin.

Yeah where is that in Scripture?

BreadOfLife · Dec 13, 2019

Taken said:
Scripture Reveals FACTS:
...Apostles Preached about Jesus IN Jerusalem.
...the Eunuch from Ethiopia went to Jerusalem to Worship.
...Jerusalem is WHERE men went to WORSHIP God.
...the Eunuch could READ.
...the Eunuch HAD a copy of Scripture.
...the Eunuch was Reading the Scripture of Isaiah

The IMPLICATION is:
...the Eunuch became AWARE that Salvation was a gift to men FROM GOD, FOR belief IN Jesus the Christ, THROUGH Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The FACT is:
...Philip encountered the Eunuch.
...The Eunuch inquired of Philip HOW HE COULD BECOME Baptized.

The IMPLICATION is:
...the Eunuch WANTED to be Baptized.

The Fact is;
...The Lord God Knows a mans Heart...of Regret, Repentance, Confession, Joy

The Fact is:
...The Eunuch Confessed His Belief To Philip.

The Fact is:
...Philip Baptized the Eunuch with Water.

The Implication is:
...The Eunuch Received the indwelling Gift of the Holy Spirit.

No one SEES a person Receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit....
But Based ON THE FACTS, of a person...it is IMPLIED a person HAS received the Holy Spirit...

YOU, make up implications, when there are NONE.
YOU, make up facts, when there are NONE.

IF YOU try really hard, you might be able to comprehend the differences between;
Fact, Implication & Fiction.

The True Facts concering Mary are...
She was naturally born in SIN...as Scripture teaches APPLIES to all born out of the Earth.
She was IN NEED of a Savior...as Scripture teaches APPLIES to all born out of the Earth.
She was OFFERED the Gift of Salvation...as Scripture teaches APPLIES to all born out of the Earth.
AFTER Jesus Bodily Ascended BACK UP to Heaven...

According to THE "FACTS" in Scripture...
At a Gathering ... the Apostles, many disciples and including Mary...

Mary ACCEPTED Jesus as Her Savior.
Mary ACCEPTED the Gift of Salvation.
Mary RECEIVED the Gift(S) "OF" the Holy Spirit AND the indwelling "OF" the Holy Spirit.

Glory to God,
Taken

Wrong.
The Eunuch had NO idea how to interpret Scripture before Philip told him.

Sooooo, by the same type of “implication”, Mary’s status as “Kecharitomene” makes her sinless – correct??

By the same type of “implication”, Mary’s question to the Angel in Luke 1:34 makes her a perpetual virgin – right??

OR – is it just the implicit teachings from Scripture that YOU approve that count??
You're a living, breathing contradiction . . .

BreadOfLife · Dec 13, 2019

David Taylor said:
Yeah where is that in Scripture?

I’ve already explained this to you on a few occasions, so your question is dishonest.
I’ll explain it again for those reading . . .

Paul is using inclusive language here in Rom. 3:10. It is similar to say, “Everybody in town came out to see the President’s motorcade”.
It’s not talking about every SINGLE person.

In Matt. 2:3, it says that “Herod was greatly troubled – and ALL of Jerusalem with him.”

Really??
“ALL” of Jerusalem knew about the birth of Jesus and was upset??
“ALL” of Jerusalem, including babies and those with dementia??
This is another case of inclusive language.

Finally – Rom. 10:3 is referencing Psalm 14, where it says:
Psalm 14:1
The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.

This Psalm is talking about the WICKED – not “”All”.
Later in verse 5, it says that God keeps company with the “RIGHTEOUS”.

Gee – and I thought Protestants said there were NONE righteous . . .

reformed1689 · Dec 13, 2019

BreadOfLife said:
I’ve already explained this to you on a few occasions, so your question is dishonest.
I’ll explain it again for those reading . . .

Paul is using inclusive language here in Rom. 3:10. It is similar to say, “Everybody in town came out to see the President’s motorcade”.
It’s not talking about every SINGLE person.

In Matt. 2:3, it says that “Herod was greatly troubled – and ALL of Jerusalem with him.”

Really??
“ALL” of Jerusalem knew about the birth of Jesus and was upset??
“ALL” of Jerusalem, including babies and those with dementia??
This is another case of inclusive language.

Finally – Rom. 10:3 is referencing Psalm 14, where it says:
Psalm 14:1
The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.

This Psalm is talking about the WICKED – not “”All”.
Later in verse 5, it says that God keeps company with the “RIGHTEOUS”.

Gee – and I thought Protestants said there were NONE righteous . . .

First, a question can't be dishonest. That's stupid. A question is just that. And you didn't answer the question because you can't.

BreadOfLife · Dec 13, 2019

David Taylor said:
I already have....twice.....

Then, please point me to the post.
What post number is it??

The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

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