Interpreting Romans 6:23 In Context

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brakelite

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Man has the strength, the ability within him to serve obedience unto righteousness
A slave may have the desire to change, to seek freedom, but has not the power to do so. We are born, all of us, into a kingdom wherein all subjects are enslaved by a cruel task master. Only by being born again do we have the freedom to escape and serve another. Such power does not come from within, but from above.
 
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marks

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Grace has been offered to all men Titus 2:11 but only those that conditionally obey receive it.
It seems to me that this makes grace the reward for "conditional obedience". If you mean "obedience to the Gospel", which is to believe in Jesus - think John 1 - then I agree, we receive this grace to salvation only when we believe.

But otherwise, it's grace in return for works, is it not?

Then, as it is written, by faith in Him we have access into the grace in which we stand, doesn't it stand to reason that if we stand in grace, without grace we fall.

In Galatians God teaches that a returning to thinking that your standing with God is based on your obedience to some keeping of works, you've fallen from grace, and if you want to do this outside of grace, you have to be completely obedient to the entire law.

But we are not under Law, but under Grace. Law provokes the flesh to sin, while grace works God's righteousness into our lives.

Much love!
 

marks

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Man has the strength, the ability within him to serve sin or serve obedience unto righteousness and man will serve who he chooses to serve.
I don't think that's right.

Romans 3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Much love!
 

Ernest T. Bass

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I don't think that's right.

Romans 3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Much love!
Paul points out that accountable men sin, he does not say men do not have the ability to obey. Men serve whom they choose to serve either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. Nor does Paul say men are born totally depraved and therefore unable to obey. Paul says men are "gone out of the way" and not born out of the way. Paul says men "become unprofitable" not born unprofitable.
 

Hidden In Him

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Paul points out that accountable men sin, he does not say men do not have the ability to obey. Men serve whom they choose to serve either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. Nor does Paul say men are born totally depraved and therefore unable to obey. Paul says men are "gone out of the way" and not born out of the way. Paul says men "become unprofitable" not born unprofitable.

I actually agree with this, only the ultimate power to obey His highest will is attained only by receiving the outpouring of the Spirit. One can certainly obey many of the commandments through normal willpower, but obeying things like the command, "Do not think what you shall say beforehand, for in that hour the Spirit will give you what words you are to speak"... that's different.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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It seems to me that this makes grace the reward for "conditional obedience". If you mean "obedience to the Gospel", which is to believe in Jesus - think John 1 - then I agree, we receive this grace to salvation only when we believe.

But otherwise, it's grace in return for works, is it not?

Then, as it is written, by faith in Him we have access into the grace in which we stand, doesn't it stand to reason that if we stand in grace, without grace we fall.

In Galatians God teaches that a returning to thinking that your standing with God is based on your obedience to some keeping of works, you've fallen from grace, and if you want to do this outside of grace, you have to be completely obedient to the entire law.

But we are not under Law, but under Grace. Law provokes the flesh to sin, while grace works God's righteousness into our lives.

Much love!
Obedience is a condition God has put on His free gift of grace. Therefore obedience cannot, does not earn grace. Out of all the obedient men in the BIble not one of them is said to have earned grace by their obedience. There is a difference between meting the condition place on a free gift as obedience and working to earn some thing.

There were some Christians i Galatia that had allowed Judiazing teachers to lead them away form the NT gospel that teaches justification by faithful obedience back the the OT law that required perfect, flawless law keeping of the entire. whole OT law to be justified. When he says they had fallen from grace means they had left the NT system of grace by faithful obedience for justification back to a OT law that required flawless perfection to be justified.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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A slave may have the desire to change, to seek freedom, but has not the power to do so. We are born, all of us, into a kingdom wherein all subjects are enslaved by a cruel task master. Only by being born again do we have the freedom to escape and serve another. Such power does not come from within, but from above.
Men have free will to chose whom they will serve. If a man chooses to serve sin unto death then he has no excuses for what he chose for himself to serve. Men are not beon totally depraved for such would give man an excuse for his sinning when man is without excuse Romans 1:20.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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I actually agree with this, only the ultimate power to obey His highest will is attained only by receiving the outpouring of the Spirit. One can certainly obey many of the commandments through normal willpower, but obeying things like the command, "Do not think what you shall say beforehand, for in that hour the Spirit will give you what words you are to speak"... that's different.


Yes, man does have the ability within himself to obey. John 7:17.

Someone may say how can man will himself to obey Matthew 5:48 that says "be ye perfect"? Man cannot will himself to be perfect in obedience for men will sin. Yet what God requires (perfection) Christ provides a way. For those who are obedient and are baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Gal 3:27) and being in Christ they are covered by Christ's perfect righteousness therefore seen as perfect by God through Christ. But it still takes obedience on the part of man, not sinless perfect obedience, but a faithful obedience in striving to do the will of God and be in Christ.
 
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brakelite

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Men have free will to chose whom they will serve. If a man chooses to serve sin unto death then he has no excuses for what he chose for himself to serve. Men are not beon totally depraved for such would give man an excuse for his sinning when man is without excuse Romans 1:20.
I agree...yet Jesus Himself said without Me ye can do nothing.
 

Zachary

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"Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,
you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death,
or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?"


We were once slaves to sin. We are now slaves to righteousness.
Paul repeats the red several times
because they are habitually sinning
because they continue to be slaves of sin!

They are now slaves of righteousness ...
only technically, theoretically, potentially, etc.
Perhaps spiritually.

They are still slaves of sin practically, i.e. in practice.
And this is what counts!
Continue, and it's eternal death!
.
 

Zachary

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Since these believers are slaves of sin,
how could they possibly be slaves of righteousness (v.17)?
Since these believers are slaves of sin,
how could they possibly be slaves of God (v.22)?
Greetings, Zachary. I was skimming your posts and this part confused me.
V.17 says they were slaves of sin but had become slaves of righteousness, yes?
If you can, clear this up for me. I don't quite follow what you were saying here.
Greetings, HIH ... please refer to post #270.
.
 

Bill Sterling

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C'mon, man ... I've gone over every verse years ago!
And what's important is NOT exegisis, but what the Spirit reveals to us!

FYI, Paul was trained by Jesus Himself for 17 years in the desert places
before he began his ministry to the Gentiles (Galatians 1:18, 2:1).
IOW, he was told HOW to deal with the churches.

Throughout his epistles ...
Paul mixes his dire warnings about losing salvation ... in with ...
MANY copious edifications, exhortations, encouragements, etc.
Almost to the extent that the warnings MUST be revealed by the Spirit.
IOW, the warnings are "almost hidden" in amongst everything else!

E.G. Romans 6 ... most believers are so brainwashed with Satan's false doctrines
that they IGNORE verses that are contrary to what they've been deceived with.

6:18 Believers who are slaves of sin are also slaves of righteousness?
6:22 Believers who are slaves of sin are also slaves of God?
C'mon, give me a break.

The red mixed in with the blue ... which are you going to believe?
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Bill Sterling

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You give way too many years for his training.
Paul started as a Pharisee.
Jesus placed that new heart in him.
Then, he was ready to go.
 

Bill Sterling

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15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves slaves to obey, his slaves you are to whom you obey; whether [as a slave] of sin unto death, or [as a slave] of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that you were the slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the slaves of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the weakness of your flesh: for as you have yielded your members slaves to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members slaves to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when you were the slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit then did you have in those things whereof you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Greetings all! Seems like the debate over if works are necessary for salvation has been the topic of choice lately, so I thought maybe we could focus on a particular passage and take it apart together and analyze it. Actually dealing with the scriptures is better than just disagreeing back and forth, so please give me your interpretations of this entire passage, verse by verse, in its context.

I've seen both sides cite the last verse in this passage as supporting their position, so if you respond, please make sure to give your interpretation of what that verse means also.

Blessings in Christ! And may we all be edified from studying this passage in-depth together!
Hidden In Him : )
 

Bill Sterling

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22 But now being made free from sin,
and having become slaves to God,
you have your fruit unto holiness,
and the end everlasting life.

This is Paul's summary statement, vs 22.
After explaining righteousness by faith in chs. 4 and 5,
he goes on to explain how we are "changed into the image of Christ"
in ch 6, and how "dying with Christ" rescues us from the Law, in ch 7
how that "walking in the Spirit," from baptism, directs us onward,
to now live out the life of Christ in our own bodies, ch 8.
 

epostle

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23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Calvin often confuses physical death with spiritual death, he uses them interchangeably leading millions astray.
 

Naomi25

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Paul repeats the red several times
because they are habitually sinning
because they continue to be slaves of sin!

They are now slaves of righteousness ...
only technically, theoretically, potentially, etc.
Perhaps spiritually.

They are still slaves of sin practically, i.e. in practice.
And this is what counts!
Continue, and it's eternal death!
.

There are, I think, clearly people out there who try to 'presume' upon grace. They see it as not such a big deal if they sin. In fact, they don't strive against it at all. "It's all good," they think, "I'm free in Christ, his grace has got it".
And that, clearly, is not what the bible teaches, even as it does teach we have freedom in grace. When they live like that, they totally miss the point that Paul is making and grace has given.
Do I think these people are saved or unsaved? Honestly, I don't feel right making that call, not knowing them or their hearts. I think all we can do when we come across them is, like Paul, stress correct doctrine and help them find what true freedom in Christ is really about. Cause pretending we can find freedom in our sins is a bit like choosing to holiday in a mud hole rather than a five star resort.
 
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brakelite

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23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Calvin often confuses physical death with spiritual death, he uses them interchangeably leading millions astray.
Death is death... The final irrevocable sentence upon sinners is the second death from which there is no resurrection... No hope of life... No hope of anything.