The "mastery" Of Our Faith

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GeneralJ

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More than Conquerors Recently I came across a sermon given by Spurgeon called “The Battle of Life.” QUOTE
A Sermon(No. 3511) Published on Thursday, May 11th, 1916. Delivered by C. H. SPURGEON, At the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington.http://www.spurgeon.org/index/rindex.htm
As I read the text I took note of the “basic ideas” given by Spurgeon concerning our struggle as Christians in this life and the various points he touched on which he deemed important considerations for the “Christian Soldier” in this battle.In the body of the text I came across a few ideas, that I will paste here as quotes, that spurned another avenue of thought in me and I would like to expound as I am made able by the Holy Spirit. The first of these quotes is this; QUOTE
“I like my text all the better, because it implies a hostile engagement, and speaks of warfare. For me the battlefield has no charms. With host encountering host, and carnage left behind, I have no sympathy, but spiritually my soul seems enamored of the idea; I buckle on my armor at the very thought that life is to be a conflict and a strife, in which it behaves me to get the mastery.”
By my own experience of battlefields I can attest to the validity of the statement “the battlefield holds no charms,” indeed it is a place of violence, death and dying. However, before my own enlistment I believed Warfare to be a picture of “sacrificial romance” and that idea feed my desire to be a part of that elite group who would shed their blood for the sake of many. I do not wish to waste too much time expounding on the stark realization of that error-full thought. If you will take note of the underlined portion of the quote above you will see the very heart of the message I would like to share. In particular; “behaves me to get the Mastery.” It is evident in today’s secular culture that the mentality of just “getting by” is becoming the only standard people feel motivated to achieve. Truly some pursue wealth with great fervor but will take any shortcut or moral compromise to gain it sooner. However this leads to great falls for those who don’t rightly earn what they have crookedly achieved, take for instance the once great leaders in our economy.In the mean time you have those who don’t have great hopes for wealth and achievement simply resigning themselves to whatever they think that fate has designed for them and lack motivation, competitiveness, and no desire to master any office. They are barely willing to put forth just enough effort to get by. All are quite content to blame outside influences for the lack of opportunity in their lives and careers, so they just labor to exist.If we consider the modern Christians motivations we can see a similar frame of mind in that we obtain our “fire insurance” and do the least bit of necessary work to clear the Pearly Gates by the “skin of our teeth.” Too often do we frame our Faith by the idea we Christians should be more deficient than unbelievers even in the light of the abundant promises to us in scripture. Certainly we know to abstain from the secular pursuit of wealth and false platforms of social achievement; however, we fall far short through the idea of “gratuitous self-debasement” and deny even the smallest of our inheritance given by our Heavenly Father. Somewhere along the lines we have chosen to adopt secular definitions of what God has ordained “fruits of the Spirit.” Take for example “meekness,” by any definition of mortal man we understand this to be a characteristic exhibited by “prey.” But in light of the truth we see that when we resolve to put off our fleshly aggression and humble ourselves Gods character stands in its place. In our “weakness he is made strong.” 2 Corinthians 12:9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. James 4:10Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.Paul says “that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” That, in my opinion is a good, exchange. But Paul was not empowered to just make it through by the skin of his teeth, but to be “More than a conqueror;” Romans 8:37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.All through the Scriptures we see phrases like “abundant life,” “to him who overcomes” and “more than conquerors,” this leads me to believe we are to master our offices in the Body of Christ, not just maintain. At one point Paul even reveals that he labored harder than those he was addressing, and we should grasp that idea to excel. Not to the effect we would be “holier than thou” Christians but by producing the fruit of the Spirit in our lives and allowing the power of Christ to work in us and through us, to the mastery of our faith. In apathy we cling tightly to the least of what our responsibility is to our faith. We see it as a great burden of rules and regulations, do this, don’t do that, as if it were to rob us of the material simplicities we already possess. But it truth in obedience is gives us greater freedom and a much more rich reward. What we do here has eternal implications for us and others, so would we resign ourselves to the smallest measure of obedience, and miss a greater reward? Would we miss what is given to us by God in this life as well as eternity?In the military a soldier is trained not only to survive but to excel, to be better. Not only must he survive but also be trained as an effective tool to subdue the enemy. We don’t fight only to survive but to win. By our mastery we are effective in survival and in our brother’s survival as well, and to the accomplishment of total victory and not a stalemate. And to those who excel are given more responsibility as leaders and authorities in such matters. An apathetic approach to warfare is a detrimental influence to your survival and others in the same fight. We must be aggressive in Spiritual warfare and rise to the fight with the intention of a total victory, and not just for the sake of self preservation. QUOTE
“Unless we deny ourselves and lay violent hands upon the impulses of our nature, are shall never come to the place where the crowns are distributed to the conquerors.”
We are soldiers and that by its very definition rules out any passive posture against the enemy.
 

RichardBurger

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I'm sorry but isn't this just another post about the work we must do to be saved and to keep ourselves saved?Isn't it just another post that says our salvation is in our hands and is obtained by our will and efforts to do something or other?Richard
 

GeneralJ

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QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 12 2009, 03:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69092
I'm sorry but isn't this just another post about the work we must do to be saved and to keep ourselves saved?Isn't it just another post that says our salvation is in our hands and is obtained by our will and efforts to do something or other?Richard
Absolutely not. We cannot "save" ourselves, neither can we find any good in us as Paul claimed of himself. However if we are saved by faith, there is works of faith, our labor, that which we are enabled by the Spirit to perform. The fact that there are a gross many people that believe that once we are saved we have no labors, work or duty to perform has resulted in the immaturity of a great many Christians. Surviving soely on and becoming "fat" off of the "milk" of the Word instead of maturing to eat of the "meat." There are "duties" we perform by the enabeling of the Spirit in order to grow and mature in Christ, and also produce righteous fruit.Sittin on our "bupkis" doesn't produce anything.So your saved....now what? Do you believe the Spirit compels you to.....what? Sit? Or labor to produce fruit? And in that labor mature and master that office.
 

Letsgofishing

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QUOTE (GeneralJ @ Feb 12 2009, 04:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69093
Absolutely not. We cannot "save" ourselves, neither can we find any good in us as Paul claimed of himself. However if we are saved by faith, there is works of faith, our labor, that which we are enabled by the Spirit to perform. The fact that there are a gross many people that believe that once we are saved we have no labors, work or duty to perform has resulted in the immaturity of a great many Christians. Surviving soely on and becoming "fat" off of the "milk" of the Word instead of maturing to eat of the "meat." There are "duties" we perform by the enabeling of the Spirit in order to grow and mature in Christ, and also produce righteous fruit.Sittin on our "bupkis" doesn't produce anything.So your saved....now what? Do you believe the Spirit compels you to.....what? Sit? Or labor to produce fruit? And in that labor mature and master that office.
exactlyWorks are obviously very important, Jesus spent more time preaching about good works than any other subjecu, even Faith.So when talking about good works, non one is implying that we are saved by them. But it is crucial to have those good works in the christian life.
 

RichardBurger

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Since some seem to believe we must do good works since we are children of God then what are those works? Are they depending on God's grace as shown in the gospel of Grace and telling others about His work on the cross? Is it building more faith and trust in what He did on the cross? Or are they works so that others can see we are such good people.I get tired of those that seem to think they do so many good works that they can make posts telling others that they must do good works, as they are doing them, when in fact they aren't doing any more good works than anyone else. They just want it to appear that they are.The good works we are to show the world is the good works performed by Jesus on the cross. We are only fruitful when we teach the gospel of grace so that others can become children of God. In other words it isn't about us, it is about God and spreading the gospel of grace. Not the gospel of good works.Some seem to think that to be totally dependant on God is a crime and yet that is exactly what God wants. The children of God are totally dependant on the work that God performed on the cross. If he/she in not totally dependant on Jesus' work on the cross then, IMHO, they are not children of God. They are just religious people doing what religious people do to appease the god of their making.I am not saying that the children of God will not do good works, I am saying they don't do them to be seen by others so they can come on forums and make works posts as if they do good works. Perhaps it is ego building and make them feel they are closer to God than the others are; but the children of God won't do it.
 

GeneralJ

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QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 13 2009, 07:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69121
Since some seem to believe we must do good works since we are children of God then what are those works? Are they depending on God's grace as shown in the gospel of Grace and telling others about His work on the cross? Is it building more faith and trust in what He did on the cross? Or are they works so that others can see we are such good people.I get tired of those that seem to think they do so many good works that they can make posts telling others that they must do good works, as they are doing them, when in fact they aren't doing any more good works than anyone else. They just want it to appear that they are.The good works we are to show the world is the good works performed by Jesus on the cross. We are only fruitful when we teach the gospel of grace so that others can become children of God. In other words it isn't about us, it is about God and spreading the gospel of grace. Not the gospel of good works.Some seem to think that to be totally dependant on God is a crime and yet that is exactly what God wants. The children of God are totally dependant on the work that God performed on the cross. If he/she in not totally dependant on Jesus' work on the cross then, IMHO, they are not children of God. They are just religious people doing what religious people do to appease the god of their making.I am not saying that the children of God will not do good works, I am saying they don't do them to be seen by others so they can come on forums and make works posts as if they do good works. Perhaps it is ego building and make them feel they are closer to God than the others are; but the children of God won't do it.
The “duty” or “reasonable service” of our faith is that we “abide” steadfast in Christ and perform the commandments given for Christian living. As we understand this “duty” it is defined as what we are “expected” to perform in light of our salvation and redemption in Christ Jesus and the “works of faith and righteousness.”Both the “Babes in Christ” and the “mature” can understand this “reasonable service” or “duty” as the guidelines for daily walking and living for those of Christ.The point or purpose of these “duties” is to insure that we are, on a daily basis, “abiding in Christ Jesus” and by this “abiding” are enabled to successfully produce acceptable spiritual “fruit,” and be counted “obedient.”Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.Ec 12:13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Read the rest of Romans chapter 12 for an idea of what "our reasonable service" includes.Without work we cannot produce fruit. Trusting in the work that Christ accomplished is not all he commanded us to observe.Because of our salvation, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we are "compelled" to labor in righteousness.
 

Letsgofishing

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QUOTE (GeneralJ @ Feb 13 2009, 08:50 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69122
The “duty” or “reasonable service” of our faith is that we “abide” steadfast in Christ and perform the commandments given for Christian living. As we understand this “duty” it is defined as what we are “expected” to perform in light of our salvation and redemption in Christ Jesus and the “works of faith and righteousness.”Both the “Babes in Christ” and the “mature” can understand this “reasonable service” or “duty” as the guidelines for daily walking and living for those of Christ.The point or purpose of these “duties” is to insure that we are, on a daily basis, “abiding in Christ Jesus” and by this “abiding” are enabled to successfully produce acceptable spiritual “fruit,” and be counted “obedient.”Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.Ec 12:13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Read the rest of Romans chapter 12 for an idea of what "our reasonable service" includes.Without work we cannot produce fruit. Trusting in the work that Christ accomplished is not all he commanded us to observe.Because of our salvation, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we are "compelled" to labor in righteousness.
completley agree again
smile.gif
 

Jordan

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QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 13 2009, 06:59 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69121
Since some seem to believe we must do good works since we are children of God then what are those works? Are they depending on God's grace as shown in the gospel of Grace and telling others about His work on the cross? Is it building more faith and trust in what He did on the cross? Or are they works so that others can see we are such good people.I get tired of those that seem to think they do so many good works that they can make posts telling others that they must do good works, as they are doing them, when in fact they aren't doing any more good works than anyone else. They just want it to appear that they are.The good works we are to show the world is the good works performed by Jesus on the cross. We are only fruitful when we teach the gospel of grace so that others can become children of God. In other words it isn't about us, it is about God and spreading the gospel of grace. Not the gospel of good works.Some seem to think that to be totally dependant on God is a crime and yet that is exactly what God wants. The children of God are totally dependant on the work that God performed on the cross. If he/she in not totally dependant on Jesus' work on the cross then, IMHO, they are not children of God. They are just religious people doing what religious people do to appease the god of their making.I am not saying that the children of God will not do good works, I am saying they don't do them to be seen by others so they can come on forums and make works posts as if they do good works. Perhaps it is ego building and make them feel they are closer to God than the others are; but the children of God won't do it.
Nobody on this forum is saying that works saves us. Works is our clothes... But it is your Free Will to go to God naked or clothes. Works is our extention of our faith. And knowing the Truth and keeping it is a work.
 

RichardBurger

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QUOTE (GeneralJ @ Feb 13 2009, 08:50 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69122
The “duty” or “reasonable service” of our faith is that we “abide” steadfast in Christ and perform the commandments given for Christian living. As we understand this “duty” it is defined as what we are “expected” to perform in light of our salvation and redemption in Christ Jesus and the “works of faith and righteousness.”Both the “Babes in Christ” and the “mature” can understand this “reasonable service” or “duty” as the guidelines for daily walking and living for those of Christ.The point or purpose of these “duties” is to insure that we are, on a daily basis, “abiding in Christ Jesus” and by this “abiding” are enabled to successfully produce acceptable spiritual “fruit,” and be counted “obedient.”Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.Ec 12:13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Read the rest of Romans chapter 12 for an idea of what "our reasonable service" includes.Without work we cannot produce fruit. Trusting in the work that Christ accomplished is not all he commanded us to observe.Because of our salvation, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we are "compelled" to labor in righteousness.
This thread is just another works thread by those that think they are doing enough works and feel compelled to make others feel that they don't.There is no righteousness outside of Christ. We, in the flesh, have no righteousness, nor are we Holy in the flesh.Seems to me that Paul said things in Romans 7 that most just want to ignore. Paul never said that the things he wanted to do are the things he did. But here on this thread are those that say they can and they must in order to be children of God.Perhaps they don't realize that Jesus came to save us from ourselves (our sinful flesh nature). All those that are "in Christ" are saved, righteous, santified and justified by the Holy Spirit. But that does not mean our sinful flesh has changed and is no longer sinful.All threads about our works are made by those that think they are no longer sinful in the flesh.Romans 12:1-31 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.But the religious think highly of themselves. Being conformed to this world is being conformed to the idea that you can, by your own efforts and will, stop sinning in the flesh.I also have another thing people should read. Rom 14:1-41 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. NKJVQUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 13 2009, 02:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69131
Nobody on this forum is saying that works saves us. Works is our clothes... But it is your Free Will to go to God naked or clothes. Works is our extention of our faith. And knowing the Truth and keeping it is a work.
That is the problem, your works are youre clothes.My clothes are the works of Jesus Christ on the cross. I will never be naked before God because I am "in Christ". My work is to keep my faith, trust, confidence, and hope in Jesus' work on the cross while all those religious posters want be to do otherwise.But those that post works threads want the children of God to place theitr fiath, trust, confidence and hope in what they can do in the flesh to save them and keep them saved. It is the same problem the Pharisees had.Rom 10:1-410 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. NKJVPaul wrote this about them the works gospel.Gal 3:1-41 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain? NKJV
 

GeneralJ

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QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 13 2009, 02:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69133
This thread is just another works thread by those that think they are doing enough works and feel compelled to make others feel that they don't.There is no righteousness outside of Christ. We, in the flesh, have no righteousness, nor are we Holy in the flesh.Seems to me that Paul said things in Romans 7 that most just want to ignore. Paul never said that the things he wanted to do are the things he did. But here on this thread are those that say they can and they must in order to be children of God.Perhaps they don't realize that Jesus came to save us from ourselves (our sinful flesh nature). All those that are "in Christ" are saved, righteous, santified and justified by the Holy Spirit. But that does not mean our sinful flesh has changed and is no longer sinful.All threads about our works are made by those that think they are no longer sinful in the flesh.Romans 12:1-31 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.But the religious think highly of themselves. Being conformed to this world is being conformed to the idea that you can, by your own efforts and will, stop sinning in the flesh.I also have another thing people should read. Rom 14:1-41 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. NKJVThat is the problem, your works are youre clothes.My clothes are the works of Jesus Christ on the cross. I will never be naked before God because I am "in Christ". My work is to keep my faith, trust, confidence, and hope in Jesus' work on the cross while all those religious posters want be to do otherwise.But those that post works threads want the children of God to place theitr fiath, trust, confidence and hope in what they can do in the flesh to save them and keep them saved. It is the same problem the Pharisees had.Rom 10:1-410 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. NKJVPaul wrote this about them the works gospel.Gal 3:1-41 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain? NKJV
I have already explained what my post concerns. You just have a chip deeply embeded with your "calvinism."Again no one here is saying that we are saved by our works, but you keep insisting so Ill do the same. Answer my previous question concerning what the Spirit enables and compels you to do. But dont forget...it's you who keeps saying, even though we have explained otherwise, that we are professing works before Christ. So if you say that the Spirit compels you to work that which God has ordained I guess your accusation would apply to you as well. So, Either you are not compelled in any way by the Spirit, i.e. unsaved. Or you are just wanting to create strife...could still question whether or not saved.Another question I would be interested in seeing an answer for since you believe there are no labors since we are elect, what is the fruit of the Spirit and how does one produce this fruit in their life, and who is the fruit for?
 

RichardBurger

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QUOTE (GeneralJ @ Feb 14 2009, 08:13 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69160
I have already explained what my post concerns. You just have a chip deeply embeded with your "calvinism."Again no one here is saying that we are saved by our works, but you keep insisting so Ill do the same. Answer my previous question concerning what the Spirit enables and compels you to do. But dont forget...it's you who keeps saying, even though we have explained otherwise, that we are professing works before Christ. So if you say that the Spirit compels you to work that which God has ordained I guess your accusation would apply to you as well. So, Either you are not compelled in any way by the Spirit, i.e. unsaved. Or you are just wanting to create strife...could still question whether or not saved.Another question I would be interested in seeing an answer for since you believe there are no labors since we are elect, what is the fruit of the Spirit and how does one produce this fruit in their life, and who is the fruit for?
Your whole assumption is that a person has to, by their own will and effort, do good works. So tell me, how is that being lead by the Spirit to do good works?I have NEVER said that a child of God will not do good works but that is what some will accuse me of.There is a very big difference between being led by the Spirit to do good works and taking it on yourselve to do good works. But religious people want to do good works by their own will and effort so that they can claim they are doing something to elevate themselves over others. They feel that if others are not doing the same good works then they have to come on forums and put a guilt trip on them. Perhaps it is jealousy.Every child of God walks with God and that relationship is not to be judged by others. You want me to answer your question, you answer mine, the good works you think you do, are they from God or are they the ones you want to do so that you can come on this forum and make yourselve seem so religious and righteous?
 

GeneralJ

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QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 14 2009, 09:48 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69162
Your whole assumption is that a person has to, by their own will and effort, do good works. So tell me, how is that being lead by the Spirit to do good works?I have NEVER said that a child of God will not do good works but that is what some will accuse me of.There is a very big difference between being led by the Spirit to do good works and taking it on yourselve to do good works. But religious people want to do good works by their own will and effort so that they can claim they are doing something to elevate themselves over others. They feel that if others are not doing the same good works then they have to come on forums and put a guilt trip on them. Perhaps it is jealousy.Every child of God walks with God and that relationship is not to be judged by others. You want me to answer your question, you answer mine, the good works you think you do, are they from God or are they the ones you want to do so that you can come on this forum and make yourselve seem so religious and righteous?
I would suggest you re-read my posts again and take notice that I claim no power or ability to do any good work by my own strength. It is only through the Spirit that we can do anything that glorifies God.I see the evidence in your post to "accuse" because of a "calvinistic viewpoint" in that those that are only aware of the tulip doctrine would have us all believe that there is no works of righteousness. Every time I post that there is a "duty" that we are to perform according to the Word of God, calvinists like to descend and twist it out of context. Again never in any of these posts have I given any reason or clue that these works are performed by our righteousness, or that we are able to do good to obtain salvation. Just for clarification, again....the Elect, does have a "duty" to perform. The Spirit of Christ in us "enabels us and encourages us" to perform these "duties." If we do not perform this work we do not grow or mature, and are only living off of the "milk" of the Word. Now maybe there is no more accusation that I intended to make someone believe that our "filthy rags" (own righteousness) will accomplish anything. We live and move and have our being by the Spirit. As for the other accusation that I may possably be here to toot my own horn and proclaim that I "saved myself" by my "righteousness," not sure how you came to that conclusion without any evidence at all in any of my post....Where have I attributed glory to myself or my achievements?QUOTE
All threads about our works are made by those that think they are no longer sinful in the flesh.
You seem to have some problems discerning the Body of Christ.....Is that your first assumption? That everyone who post concerning works is not of God? You draw some far fetched conclusions and are hasty to accuse....what does that tell me about your disposition to any man, sinner or saint?
 

RichardBurger

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QUOTE (GeneralJ @ Feb 14 2009, 10:24 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69163
I would suggest you re-read my posts again and take notice that I claim no power or ability to do any good work by my own strength. It is only through the Spirit that we can do anything that glorifies God.I see the evidence in your post to "accuse" because of a "calvinistic viewpoint" in that those that are only aware of the tulip doctrine would have us all believe that there is no works of righteousness. Every time I post that there is a "duty" that we are to perform according to the Word of God, calvinists like to descend and twist it out of context. Again never in any of these posts have I given any reason or clue that these works are performed by our righteousness, or that we are able to do good to obtain salvation. Just for clarification, again....the Elect, does have a "duty" to perform. The Spirit of Christ in us "enabels us and encourages us" to perform these "duties." If we do not perform this work we do not grow or mature, and are only living off of the "milk" of the Word. Now maybe there is no more accusation that I intended to make someone believe that our "filthy rags" (own righteousness) will accomplish anything. We live and move and have our being by the Spirit. As for the other accusation that I may possably be here to toot my own horn and proclaim that I "saved myself" by my "righteousness," not sure how you came to that conclusion without any evidence at all in any of my post....Where have I attributed glory to myself or my achievements?You seem to have some problems discerning the Body of Christ.....Is that your first assumption? That everyone who post concerning works is not of God? You draw some far fetched conclusions and are hasty to accuse....what does that tell me about your disposition to any man, sinner or saint?
First of all I don't have any problems.You said: "I would suggest you re-read my posts again and take notice that I claim no power or ability to do any good work by my own strength. It is only through the Spirit that we can do anything that glorifies God."Then way are you posting about works? And how do our works focus on His works?
 

GeneralJ

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QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Feb 14 2009, 11:17 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69167
First of all I don't have any problems.You said: "I would suggest you re-read my posts again and take notice that I claim no power or ability to do any good work by my own strength. It is only through the Spirit that we can do anything that glorifies God."Then way are you posting about works? And how do our works focus on His works?
Do we have a work to do after our conversion?Jas 2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.Jesus states that there is more than just direct obedience to a direct order.Lu 17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? Lu 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? Lu 17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. Lu 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.So what is the “profit” that we don’t see in just performing our “duty?”Just believing is not the full operation of our faith. Without action “enabled and directed by the Spirit” these “duties” are not performed. If they are not performed we are not obedient to commands we are given. Even so, just the simple performance when commanded to do so does not “profit” us other than in a simple “childlike manner.”For instance; if I were to give my child three “duties” that they were to perform every day such as, picking up their room, brushing their teeth, and taking out the trash. Firstly, I would explain to my child the necessity and the good effect that each duty, if it were performed correctly, would accomplish. Namely, they would promote good health and cleanliness. Also I would award the child liberties for being obedient and performing these duties faithfully as an initial incentive. At the outset I would expect to have to command my child to perform the duty and supervise them in the correct manner to achieve the desired results. If I were to continue each day giving these three commands to my child and they obeyed when the command was given, we could rightly claim that my child was an obedient child, for they obeyed when I gave each command. However, if this same necessity to give the commands each and every day continued for a number of years without change we begin to see a few problems. Although the child obeys the commands when given each and every time, they have not exercised any initiative of their own to perform these three “expected duties,” without first being commanded to. We can see that regardless of the “good results” performing these duties accomplish and their “proven benefits” over the last few years, my child has not developed any “self-discipline” to perform these duties without my command. Can I still claim that I have an obedient child?If my child obeys my commands they are indeed obedient, but if they don’t develop “self-discipline” they remain children, immature. We can literally mark their growth in maturity by their “self-discipline.” The child was given the good purpose for the duties, and the initiative to will or want to accomplish them yet they did not learn to measure the profit of performing the “expected duty” without being commanded to each and every time. So they are obedient in that they obey when I command, but their obedience by command alone is unprofitable for them and me, for there has been no evidence of maturity by “self-discipline” and continual command grieves both the child and me. Furthermore there is no ability of the child to take on additional “duties,” additional in the sense that they are necessary labors that someone has to perform for an expected result to “maintain a specific standard.” What could we attribute as the reason for the child to not “measure the profit” of performing the duties without first having been commanded to do so? Most likely and true would be to say that the child has found some other activity that is more desirable than the results of their “expected duties.” And truthfully these “other activities” would be some form of recreation or entertainment. The fact that we have labeled those works we ordain necessary as “duties” is that it implies a labor meant to “maintain” a standard and produce an expected result. If the child is unable to “mature” in self-discipline to perform these three “basic duties” there is no responsibility in the child and therefore they cannot be trusted to gain additional “duties.” Instead the child has exercised a selfish desire for “recreation and entertainment” over necessary welfare, because “duty” requires labor in the maintenance that does not serve pleasures of the flesh. Clean and healthy teeth do not give pleasure; a kitchen free of garbage does not entertain, but they are necessary in order to “maintain” health and cleanliness. So “spiritually speaking” we can see the “child” has not produced fruit, but that there is a constant “re-laying” of the simple fundamental rules without any increase.If the Child were to grow and mature to obey without us constantly having to walk them through every “duty” we see growth. In this they are able to take on more Duties, responsibilities, and in that produce a greater amount of “fruit” or profit from their increased maturity and responsibility.Just in case there is confusion…God gives the increase! We are given the Spirit that enables us, compels us, and teaches us et.al. For without the Spirit we are unable to grasp even the most basic principles or accomplish anything whatsoever. I do not speak of the works that are not of God. But in salvation and receiving the Holy Spirit we are enabled to produce righteous fruit. That requires labor. By the Spirit.Lu 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Lu 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Lu 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. Lu 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; Lu 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. Lu 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Lu 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
 

RichardBurger

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QUOTE (GeneralJ @ Feb 14 2009, 12:15 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69172
Do we have a work to do after our conversion?Jas 2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.Jesus states that there is more than just direct obedience to a direct order.Lu 17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? Lu 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? Lu 17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. Lu 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.So what is the “profit” that we don’t see in just performing our “duty?”Just believing is not the full operation of our faith. Without action “enabled and directed by the Spirit” these “duties” are not performed. If they are not performed we are not obedient to commands we are given. Even so, just the simple performance when commanded to do so does not “profit” us other than in a simple “childlike manner.”For instance; if I were to give my child three “duties” that they were to perform every day such as, picking up their room, brushing their teeth, and taking out the trash. Firstly, I would explain to my child the necessity and the good effect that each duty, if it were performed correctly, would accomplish. Namely, they would promote good health and cleanliness. Also I would award the child liberties for being obedient and performing these duties faithfully as an initial incentive. At the outset I would expect to have to command my child to perform the duty and supervise them in the correct manner to achieve the desired results. If I were to continue each day giving these three commands to my child and they obeyed when the command was given, we could rightly claim that my child was an obedient child, for they obeyed when I gave each command. However, if this same necessity to give the commands each and every day continued for a number of years without change we begin to see a few problems. Although the child obeys the commands when given each and every time, they have not exercised any initiative of their own to perform these three “expected duties,” without first being commanded to. We can see that regardless of the “good results” performing these duties accomplish and their “proven benefits” over the last few years, my child has not developed any “self-discipline” to perform these duties without my command. Can I still claim that I have an obedient child?If my child obeys my commands they are indeed obedient, but if they don’t develop “self-discipline” they remain children, immature. We can literally mark their growth in maturity by their “self-discipline.” The child was given the good purpose for the duties, and the initiative to will or want to accomplish them yet they did not learn to measure the profit of performing the “expected duty” without being commanded to each and every time. So they are obedient in that they obey when I command, but their obedience by command alone is unprofitable for them and me, for there has been no evidence of maturity by “self-discipline” and continual command grieves both the child and me. Furthermore there is no ability of the child to take on additional “duties,” additional in the sense that they are necessary labors that someone has to perform for an expected result to “maintain a specific standard.” What could we attribute as the reason for the child to not “measure the profit” of performing the duties without first having been commanded to do so? Most likely and true would be to say that the child has found some other activity that is more desirable than the results of their “expected duties.” And truthfully these “other activities” would be some form of recreation or entertainment. The fact that we have labeled those works we ordain necessary as “duties” is that it implies a labor meant to “maintain” a standard and produce an expected result. If the child is unable to “mature” in self-discipline to perform these three “basic duties” there is no responsibility in the child and therefore they cannot be trusted to gain additional “duties.” Instead the child has exercised a selfish desire for “recreation and entertainment” over necessary welfare, because “duty” requires labor in the maintenance that does not serve pleasures of the flesh. Clean and healthy teeth do not give pleasure; a kitchen free of garbage does not entertain, but they are necessary in order to “maintain” health and cleanliness. So “spiritually speaking” we can see the “child” has not produced fruit, but that there is a constant “re-laying” of the simple fundamental rules without any increase.If the Child were to grow and mature to obey without us constantly having to walk them through every “duty” we see growth. In this they are able to take on more Duties, responsibilities, and in that produce a greater amount of “fruit” or profit from their increased maturity and responsibility.Just in case there is confusion…God gives the increase! We are given the Spirit that enables us, compels us, and teaches us et.al. For without the Spirit we are unable to grasp even the most basic principles or accomplish anything whatsoever. I do not speak of the works that are not of God. But in salvation and receiving the Holy Spirit we are enabled to produce righteous fruit. That requires labor. By the Spirit.Lu 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Lu 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Lu 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. Lu 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; Lu 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. Lu 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Lu 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
No matter how you want to claim your thread is not about works it is obvious that it is. You are hear telling others that they must work to bear fruit and then you say that the children of God will do those works but it seems not unless persons, like you, tell them to.That is the whole purpose of a works thread; to tell others what they must do. As if the writer does those things. In every case it is putting a works burden on others that you do carry yourself. I say that because you know you are not doing all those things you want others to do.By the way, are you claiming that Jesus was telling the Jews (and to some those under grace) that they have to be perfect in the flesh. I certainly don't think so. What He was doing is showing them that it is impossible for sinful man to be perfect.No matter how some wish to lay burdens on others, that they do not carry themselves, A child of God already has the victory over sins in the flesh. Not by what they do in the flesh but what they do in the Spirit. Religious people cannot see any difference in the Spirit and the flesh.
 

GeneralJ

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QUOTE
-No matter how you want to claim your thread is not about works it is obvious that it is. You are hear telling others that they must work to bear fruit and then you say that the children of God will do those works but it seems not unless persons, like you, tell them to.
Bearing fruit is scriptural. In my posts I have not commanded these bear fruit but God has commanded it.Read again my post that states “we are to abide in Christ.” Is that me giving the command or Christ?Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.QUOTE
-That is the whole purpose of a works thread; to tell others what they must do. As if the writer does those things. In every case it is putting a works burden on others that you do carry yourself. I say that because you know you are not doing all those things you want others to do.
Teaching is one of the purposes of scripture. Are you proposing that God only calls those that are already perfected to teach his Word? Does Christ put a burden on us? Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Mt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. Mt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.QUOTE
-By the way, are you claiming that Jesus was telling the Jews (and to some those under grace) that they have to be perfect in the flesh. I certainly don't think so. What He was doing is showing them that it is impossible for sinful man to be perfect.
You’re going to have to be a little more specific concerning this question. I am not sure how you mined that out of my posts. I have already stated numerous times that it must be by the Spirit that we operate. QUOTE
-No matter how some wish to lay burdens on others, that they do not carry themselves, A child of God already has the victory over sins in the flesh. Not by what they do in the flesh but what they do in the Spirit. Religious people cannot see any difference in the Spirit and the flesh.
Firstly that is a judgment against someone you don’t even know. I’ve assumed no burden to any man other than what the Scriptures have taught us. You seem to be rejecting this work God has called us to with your redundant posts without evidence. You would assume we are to ignore our flesh. Wrong, how would we fare if we were to ignore our enemy when he comes against us? Ps 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:As far as the flesh is concerned it must be subdued, not ignored, but you would assume that work is already perfected in you? Do tell.Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.Problem is every post that talks of works you assume we speak of the works of the LAW. That is incorrect as I have shown time and time again in my post. When you are saved you do have “duties.” Not of former things or of flesh and self-exaltation. If we are “servants” how can you be considered “faithful” if you do not perform what you are commanded in obedience?Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.Tit 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.So, no work no fruit. Two of my most grievous concerns with “Calvinism” is that those that have swallowed the doctrine whole have somehow been encouraged by it to put off “the fear of God” in that they “believe” that the whole work (of Calvin) is without error, and palpable for “Spiritual consumption.” No man is without error, and no man knows all the “mysteries of God.”The second is that because there are some that have swallowed “Calvinism” whole without first tasting, believe that their faith and perfection is complete. No labor remains. This is contradictory to a great deal of Scripture. Our hearts are established with Grace, not another’s doctrine or “meat.” Some have completely thrown out the entirety of the NT teachings and replaced it with “Calvin’s” doctrines. Only the Word of God, Scripture, holds ALL the TRUTH. Too many lean too heavily on another’s doctrine without trying all things by the Word.Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.QUOTE
- A child of God already has the victory over sins in the flesh. Not by what they do in the flesh but what they do in the Spirit. Religious people cannot see any difference in the Spirit and the flesh.
This statement looks good; however, “by the Spirit we mortify the deeds of the flesh.” We bring our flesh to subjection; we do not “ignore it.” It is indeed a crafty statement to quietly remove our responsibility to labor in hope of perfection.Do we still sin? As the “elect” we do not sin willfully as Paul stated;Ro 7:14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. Ro 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. Ro 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Ro 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Ro 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.So there remains work to be done because we still wrestle against the corruption of our flesh. What is this “work?” Take a look at this scripture;Mt 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:Ac 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.These “works/ fruits” are a witness of our true repentance. The “elect” are compelled to resist temptation and refrain from sin by the Spirit. These “temptations” are the many “afflictions” of the righteous, the “trying of their faith.” If one does not bear fruit there is no “evidence” of repentance.Again the “elect” are compelled to “work righteousness,” those that are not the “elect” will and have to sin, for they are still in bondage to sin and they are not compelled by the Spirit to true repentance with the evidence of righteous fruit. So the “elect” are kept…by what? Calvin doesn’t say. The elect are kept by Faith.1Pe 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.And “FAITH” without “works” is dead, and is not faith at all.Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.So our “work” is the evidence of our “faith,” and our “fruit” is the evidence of our true “repentance,” and election.2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.2Pe 1:5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: