The Influence of Islam on Christendom

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

B

brakelite

Guest
Now I think we all realize that Islam is a totalitarian system. I don't say just religion since Islam covers a lot more than just religious ideas. Islam also ventures into the political sphere...seeking to control every aspect of a person's life.

On a religious level...the world is seen by these as either being in submission to God (as in Islam) or else to be seen as an infidel. Fidelity is seen as being embodied only in exclusivity to it's own worldview. All else is to be converted or destroyed. This is totalitarianism in a nutshell.

Judaism on the other hand is a two tiered religion. There is the holy nation...and they who are the righteous among the nations. We know that Jews actually dissuade people from converting to Judaism...instead citing salvation by following the Noahide laws...based on a universal righteousness. And besides the Jews see their nation as the light to the other nations. Jews do NOT impose the weight of the 613 laws of Judaism on non-Jews. That is both the prerogative and responsibility that goes with being a Jew in the world.

So then Judaism is NOT totalitarian in it's out look.

So which world-view have we adopted in modern Christendom?

The totalitarian one.
WADR I find your theory that Islam infected Christendom with a totalitarian mindset to be not only rather simplistic, but historically inaccurate. Here is link to a paper I think you would do well to consider... And good reading for anyone interested in the emergence of modern political thought and the decline of ecclesiastical power in the political realm.
The Two Swords Theory: Papacy and Empire in the Middle Ages
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009
B

brakelite

Guest
WADR I find your theory that Islam infected Christendom with a totalitarian mindset to be not only rather simplistic, but historically inaccurate. Here is link to a paper I think you would do well to consider... And good reading for anyone interested in the emergence of modern political thought and the decline of ecclesiastical power in the political realm.
The Two Swords Theory: Papacy and Empire in the Middle Ages
With the above in consideration I do not want anyone to think that I believe there to be no longer any religious influence in politics... Far from it. The goal of Catholicism that prominently inspired the so called "Holy Roman Empire" in Europe, is still alive and very very well thankyou, and is now making itself felt on a global political scale scarcely dreamed of by popes in past centuries. Islam is not the bogey man you need to fear... The re-emergence of Rome in political circles is far more dangerous than any raving Ayatollah in Iran... And more potentially deadly than the numerous false flags designed to disarm Americans and Australians and others of their independence and power to choose their own leaders... If that hasn't been lost already.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
yeh, easy to imagine the world going to hell, huh? But as history will witness imo, the "pendulum" will always swing back the other way imo
WADR I find your theory that Islam infected Christendom with a totalitarian mindset to be not only rather simplistic, but historically inaccurate. Here is link to a paper I think you would do well to consider... And good reading for anyone interested in the emergence of modern political thought and the decline of ecclesiastical power in the political realm.
The Two Swords Theory: Papacy and Empire in the Middle Ages
https://cupola.gettysburg.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&context=contemporary_sec3
prolly easier to scan here, really just a redux of the "logical" thought thing imo? Which the terms arent coming to me right now, need to up my mct lol, but "thing, counter-thing," position or theory or whatever, "struggle (war, iow)" as opposed to eastern? Ill bring up the relevant snip in "dialectics"
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Logical and Dialectical Reasoning in Scripture
ok well i was looking for the "Hegelian dialectic" deal, but its in here somewhere i guess, anyway we call it several diff things i guess, western v eastern thought, Platonic v...Aristotlean? Socratic? one of those, etc
Hegel’s Dialectics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

"satan's" dialectic imo, any way you slice it
With the above in consideration I do not want anyone to think that I believe there to be no longer any religious influence in politics... Far from it. The goal of Catholicism that prominently inspired the so called "Holy Roman Empire" in Europe, is still alive and very very well thankyou, and is now making itself felt on a global political scale scarcely dreamed of by popes in past centuries. Islam is not the bogey man you need to fear... The re-emergence of Rome in political circles is far more dangerous than any raving Ayatollah in Iran... And more potentially deadly than the numerous false flags designed to disarm Americans and Australians and others of their independence and power to choose their own leaders... If that hasn't been lost already.
The Pope Sides With Muslims Over Israel’s Claim to Jerusalem
title says it all there i guess
 
Last edited:

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
WADR I find your theory that Islam infected Christendom with a totalitarian mindset to be not only rather simplistic, but historically inaccurate. Here is link to a paper I think you would do well to consider... And good reading for anyone interested in the emergence of modern political thought and the decline of ecclesiastical power in the political realm.
The Two Swords Theory: Papacy and Empire in the Middle Ages

I don't believe Epi meant to say Islam invented the totalitarian view. After all, when Jesus said the world's leaders lord it over their people/subjects, He was talking about totalitarianism and that was long before Islam. And if I'm remembering correctly, epi did not use the word (or the spirit often behind the word) "infected," but rather used the word "adopted."

Furthermore, Epi wasn't writing a paper about the totalitarianism of Islam, or even a paper about every totalitarian structure the earlier church encountered. His main thrust was that the church adopted totalitarian ideology in their parry against a totalitarian structure (Islam), and that the seeds of that adoption still remain in today's church.

By the way, I tried to read that paper you gave a link to but it was unbearable. I rolled my eyes at "indubitably," got a bit of a chuckle at the author putting on airs of what he believes intelligence sounds like, almost gave up when he used a Latin phrase that he then felt he must translate into English for his well educated professor/audience and finally chucked it in at about page 3 or 4.
 
Last edited:
B

brakelite

Guest
Logical and Dialectical Reasoning in Scripture
ok well i was looking for the "Hegelian dialectic" deal, but its in here somewhere i guess, anyway we call it several diff things i guess, western v eastern thought, Platonic v...Aristotlean? Socratic? one of those, etc
Hegel’s Dialectics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

"satan's" dialectic imo, any way you slice it

The Pope Sides With Muslims Over Israel’s Claim to Jerusalem
title says it all there i guess
Which at least to my way of thinking, makes it utterly perplexing why a Christian thinks that he can through politics make people morally presentable. Or even knows who it is he is voting for considering all applicants are potential mystery boxes and you cannot know what is inside until after they explode.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Which at least to my way of thinking, makes it utterly perplexing why a Christian thinks that he can through politics make people morally presentable

And if you change the word "politics" in the above, with the words "war and bloodshed," you will get closer to what Epi was meaning to say, in my opinion.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Furthermore, Epi wasn't writing a paper about the totalitarianism of Islam, or even a paper about every totalitarian structure the earlier church encountered. His main thrust was that the church adopted totalitarian ideology in their parry against a totalitarian structure (Islam), and that the seeds of that adoption still remain in today's church.
I think that the church's battles using totalitarianism began a long time before Islam came on the scene... The wars against the Arians springs to mind...
And if you change the word "politics" in the above, with the words "war and bloodshed," you will get closer to what Epi was meaning to say, in my opinion.
Ummmm, I don't see a lot of difference to be honest. Legislation intended to Christianise people demand punishment which inevitably results in bloodshed... The two sword theory encapsulates that.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think that the church's battles using totalitarianism began a long time before Islam came on the scene... The wars against the Arians springs to mind...

Yes, I got that. This was why I said I don't think epi meant to aver that Islam was the inventor of totalitarianism. He chose to make his point WITH a certain point in history and WITH a certain structure in history. If he had been writing a scholarly paper, I'm sure he would have examined even earlier examples of the churches penchant to adoption of worldly ideologies/structures. I am glad he didn't post that paper. I am able to follow his model/point without him going to scholarly excess or an attempt to trace back to where what Jesus spoke of originated. I agree that it originated with Satan and continues with Satan.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ummmm, I don't see a lot of difference to be honest. Legislation intended to Christianise people demand punishment which inevitably results in bloodshed...

I agree. Epi agrees. The church should never have adopted and should not continue. Which puzzles me as to what your argument might be (aside from an objection to epi's simplified and inexhaustive outline...?)
 
Last edited:

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But I get a chuckle at you Brakelite, because you remind me of me. I often find myself objecting to what someone didn't include, but then I stop myself, realizing I agree with what the person said, and giving the person a break from trying to meet my demand of covering everything on earth at once. :D
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is nothing new under the sun. A totalitarian regime threw the three men into the oven in the OT because they refused to adopt.

Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name. But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But what I got from epi is that just because the church ceased to wield swords and shed blood does not mean they didn't keep a totalitarian model. In fact, they insert that model into Jesus' words. How insanely and inconceivably subtle Satan is...

And all together now: I once was blind but now I see and you're going to hell.
 
Last edited:

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,800
19,243
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
WADR I find your theory that Islam infected Christendom with a totalitarian mindset to be not only rather simplistic, but historically inaccurate. Here is link to a paper I think you would do well to consider... And good reading for anyone interested in the emergence of modern political thought and the decline of ecclesiastical power in the political realm.
The Two Swords Theory: Papacy and Empire in the Middle Ages


I think you are trying to bog down the thread. Why don't you read it and post an argument or two that debunks the position I made in the OP.

The best way to counter an argument is not with a strawman position...but the opposite...trying to find the best argument to refute (the steel man)

Now how much influence has Christianity had on islam?

Well I see some influence there too. What causes a more moderate view of Islam if not the example of faithful believers? What of Sufism? There will always be cross-pollination of ideas...but also the reactive hardening of positions in whatever doesn't succeed in that influencing.

The point I was making (and still am) is that modern Christian doctrine is totalitarian...(crusades aside)..Convert or die!

Judaism doesn't say that. (try to see this point if you will) Being a Jew is seen as a responsibility from God to be a light to the world. Is that not more similar to the commission given to us by the Lord? I stated that in the thread. It is very easy to see which form of worldview the church has adopted by a simple comparison. The totalitarian stance did not originate in the early church. And it may also have been infiltrated into the church before Islam. But Islam gave the necessary reason for the church to fully adopt a totalitarian stance in a violation of everything Jesus stands for. And this continues to this day.

It is a war against what grace really is....by an imposition of law on all who have not yet accepted the totalitarian view of grace.

Our doctrinal stance indeed affects our behaviour. We see that behaviour on this very forum. And that stance is...grace for me...and law for you. Whereas Jesus said to forgive as you have been forgiven. Speak with grace as God has given you grace.

So I'm not interested in the historical details....that is a fool's errand. The victors write the history...but could the crusades have existed without the threat of Islam? Warrior monks?

Our job was never to convert the world. That is Islam. Our job was and is to be the light of the world and take on it's sins and sufferings sacrificially upon ourselves. To be like Christ in the world. But that was too hard. Islam gives us the excuse we needed to be as they are....rigid and totalitarian in our mindset.
 
Last edited:

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,800
19,243
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
What I haven't heard commentary on is how Judaism has a better more graceful approach to the problem of they who are not of the same faith. Judaism allows for righteousness outside their faith. This is huge. And this smacks of grace...rather than law. Could Christianity then just be the foil against Islam to preserve Judaism as the light of the world? By pitting these two against each other?

Well we sure are acting that way.

We should, rather, let the Jews be our example and doing at LEAST what they are doing. And this in the way of having our righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Could Christianity then just be the foil against Islam to preserve Judaism as the light of the world? By pitting these two against each other?

Yes...and oddly, what I think I perceive, is...some strange formations, a battle line being drawn where one side is "for" the Jews and the other side sympathizes with the Muslims. But the Jews don't trust the side that sympathizes with them because their history has made them smart in many respects. So what I think I might be seeing is a gradual drift over to the side of Islam that will become en masse at some point. But I have limited sight. I could be seeing something that won't coalesce.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,800
19,243
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Yes...and oddly, what I think I perceive, is...some strange formations, a battle line being drawn where one side is "for" the Jews and the other side sympathizes with the Muslims. But the Jews don't trust the side that sympathizes with them because their history has made them smart in many respects. So what I think I might be seeing is a gradual drift over to the side of Islam that will become en masse at some point. But I have limited sight. I could be seeing something that won't coalesce.


I think this shift has already happened "fundamentally"....pun intended. We become what we hate...we use the ways of our enemies to fight them...violence for violence...rather than loving them and preserving our ways.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think this shift has already happened "fundamentally"....pun intended. We become what we hate...we use the ways of our enemies to fight them...violence for violence...rather than loving them and preserving our ways.

Yes...I guess you could say it has already happened. In a hidden way. I think it might happen in an actual and visible way, though I can't see how.
 

JohnPaul

Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
Jun 10, 2019
3,274
2,567
113
New Jersey
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
With the above in consideration I do not want anyone to think that I believe there to be no longer any religious influence in politics... Far from it. The goal of Catholicism that prominently inspired the so called "Holy Roman Empire" in Europe, is still alive and very very well thankyou, and is now making itself felt on a global political scale scarcely dreamed of by popes in past centuries. Islam is not the bogey man you need to fear... The re-emergence of Rome in political circles is far more dangerous than any raving Ayatollah in Iran... And more potentially deadly than the numerous false flags designed to disarm Americans and Australians and others of their independence and power to choose their own leaders... If that hasn't been lost already.
I’d like to see you say that the next time a Muslim blows somebody up or plows their car into a mass crowd, the hatred for Catholics is big on this forum, no my friend Islam is way more dangerous than the Catholics.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reggie Belafonte