The Influence of Islam on Christendom

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Episkopos

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I’d like to see you say that the next time a Muslim blows somebody up or plows their car into a mass crowd, the hatred for Catholics is big on this forum, no my friend Islam is way more dangerous than the Catholics.


Islam says...believe or die. And that means now and some are very willing to kill you if you don't convert.

Christianity has the same attitude towards conversion...just not the same methods in that regard. Convert or die is still based upon the idea of conversion to what WE accept as the correct dogmatic stance.

I wonder at times if before the islamist cuts the head off the orange-clad victim being labeled an infidel (and therefore not worthy of any pity)...the would be victim would declare..."I see it now...you are just trying to show me how important it is to convert to Islam, so I want to be a convert" Would that be enough to stop the execution?

Making a decision for Allah? Much like the politically inspired "decision for Christ" that modern evangelists peddle (As if Jesus was running for president)
 
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brakelite

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I’d like to see you say that the next time a Muslim blows somebody up or plows their car into a mass crowd, the hatred for Catholics is big on this forum, no my friend Islam is way more dangerous than the Catholics.
I'm not talking about individual Catholics. Don't copy BoL and others and create issues where there are none... There is no hatred towards Catholics on this forum... That is nonsense. We are talking about ideologies... Catholicism ... And every ideology has its issues, including Protestantism. And ideologies are not what Jesus died for. He died for individuals... You and me... And those who accept his calling we call Christians... Individual people who can be found in every faith walk... And as Epi was saying and I agree with, there may be room even for people in glory outside of our limited man made paradigms... Yes, only through Jesus can anyone see the Father, but that does not necessarily mean everyone in glory was fully aware of who Jesus is. We are not judged by our knowledge, be it spiritual or otherwise, not by our profession, or denominational affiliation, but by our works... And there are people in this world who live up to the light they have showing their faith by their works who will be in glory ahead of many professing Christians... Catholic, Protestant, and otherwise.
 
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brakelite

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I’d like to see you say that the next time a Muslim blows somebody up or plows their car into a mass crowd, the hatred for Catholics is big on this forum, no my friend Islam is way more dangerous than the Catholics.
Both ideologies are dangerous.. One not bothered about current public opinion varies out its atrocities, boasts of them afterwards, and plans more. The other, seeking a more subtle approach and realising that past practices don't work in the modern world, is using the UN and ecumenism to Scheiber hegemony. My view is that the latter is far more dangerous because it is the one very few notice.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Both ideologies are dangerous.. One not bothered about current public opinion varies out its atrocities, boasts of them afterwards, and plans more. The other, seeking a more subtle approach and realising that past practices don't work in the modern world, is using the UN and ecumenism to Scheiber hegemony. My view is that the latter is far more dangerous because it is the one very few notice.

To clearly see an evil is one thing. To not see an evil because it has been cleverly hidden is another.
 

Enoch111

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...the hatred for Catholics is big on this forum...
You are mistaking hatred for false teachings as hatred for the people who have been deceived by the clerics of the RCC. Big difference. Why should Christians hate Catholics (who are generally very fine people) when they have simply been deceived? On the other hand, Christ hates deeds and doctrines which are false, and expects Christians to hate them also: But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate... So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.(Rev 2:6,15).

Getting back to Islam, there is no way that any right-minded person can put Islam on the same level as Catholicism. Radical Islam is pure hatred for the West, for Christians (including Catholics), and for Jews. And this is embedded in the Quran/Koran.
 

amadeus

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Can others here help marks to see what he is missing? I am asking in all sincerity.

I wish you could understand my answer....but I don't think you would be able to hear my explanation as to why you can't track what I'm saying. Your ego would get in the way...because you are looking for affirmation...not instruction.

We were brought out of darkness into Light, but how bright is our Light? John the Baptist did have Light, but he recognized that his own flesh was in the way of God and His Son. While our old man lives at all he is in the way of the work that God would do in us... if allowed to come in and work!

Consider what Jesus said about John the Baptist:

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Matt 11:11

Such a great man of God was the Baptist, but unless and until we are greater than he was, we are not even the least in the kingdom heaven. We are on the outside!

The Baptist himself said:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

John the Baptist said that He, Jesus, must increase, even while the man himself, the Baptist that is, would have to decrease.

From his childhood Jesus was increasing while he walked among men in the flesh 2000 years ago:


"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

Yes, Jesus increased and so when the new man is born in us [born again or from above] he, the new man, must also be increasing.

@Episkopos spoke of "truth in layers" and the verses I quoted above speak of this same thing. No one grows by standing still and never eating or drinking in the flesh. Similarly must it for the new man of us.

Are all of the parts of the Body of Christ, [whoever they are], now doing greater works than Jesus did? If not yet, according to Jesus they will! Is that you and me? Are we part of the Body of Christ?
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." John 14:12
How bright is the Light of God? How bright is the Light of the Lamb/Jesus?
"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Rev 21:23
What is darkness to God?

"If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee." Ps 139:11-12


And what saith it?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

Jesus said "... I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." John 8:12

But He also said: "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid." Matt 5:14

How bright is our Light? How bright will our Light be as we become like Him?

"Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound." Isaiah 30:26

As we penetrate each layer of Truth does not the face of Jesus becomes clearer until we are able see what Moses could not see?

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Ex 33:20

 
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amadeus

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As for the totalitarianism of what is commonly known as Christianity or Christendom consider the Crusades which @Episkopos also mentioned who chose to fight fire with fire instead of following the Way of Jesus.
"And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them... Luke 9:54-56
Someone is always telling you or me or that other guy to come to his church because his church is the best one and to believe his, or his church's, version of truth, for surely it is the correct one. That started long ago now with simpler even kindly words, but the pressure is increasing now for harsher words and ways against anyone not conforming to certain ecumenical and politically correct standards [rather than God's]. Who will choose to stand with Jesus then...?
Must we lose our heads? The Baptist did!
Must we be physically crucified? Jesus was!
Must we be stoned? Stephen was!
Is one of those choices going to be too hard for us to bear it? If it is, then is perhaps the fear of man in us greater than the Love God in us? Perhaps some of us are Not really then... born again or born from above?
The pressure is already being applied as we see with the rejection of the scriptures or the diminishing importance of the scriptures or the changing meaning of words we use regarding God and the things of God... to something more politically correct to replace the unchangeable Word of God... although they may still name it the Word of God!
People say they follow the Bible, but what most of them follow as we see from our societies are men who have bent or twisted Bible verses to fit their own programs and doctrines... instead of seeking God's kingdom and righteousness first so as to receive God's understanding of that which God anointed men to write.
People speak of the Holy Spirit, but in most church gatherings in most places the Holy Spirit is not allowed to lead and sometimes not even to abide. In the olden days the signs read, "Irish need not apply", but very soon or even now they might read "Holy Ghost manifestations not allowed.] In most "church" meetings man's programs prepared by men determine who is allowed to participate at any given time from the first 'hello' to the last 'goodbye' of each meeting. Who are these men who set the programs? Are any or all of them part of a totalitarian leadership hindering even God Himself with their programs and aimed against anyone who is not completely with them!
"And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Luke 9:49-50
But now even Jesus himself is not among them. He was forbidden long ago though they still may speak his name... as if they knew him.
If they are moving closer together, are they not most often moving away from God because God does not meet their membership requirements?
If they are moving farther apart is it not most often in an 'each to his own' direction which also is moving away from God who is Not the author of confusion?
Where is God?
Not in any totalitarian move where by following their leaders many [perhaps most] people are moving closer to each other in man's unity, which he names: ecumenism... but it is not God's unity. No, they, including undoubtedly some seen here on this forum, are often more concerned with attacking the non-conformist anyone already set apart as a "cultists" simply because they won't embrace the totalitarian [usually known as the Christian] way. God is not in that way!
No...to all of this say some honestly, who really love God! That "some" are likely included in the very few passing through the needle's eye or entering the strait and narrow gate, are they not?
Members of churches and their leaders call their ways Christianity, but too we ask seriously where Jesus is to found in it! They program God out of their 'worship' services; they program in only those pre-approved by the totalitarian leaders (kings as per Hosea 13:9-11 called now: ministers, pastors, evangelists, priests) who meet their own requirements as if they knew better than God how to lead. [They don't ever trust the Holy Spirit to actually lead!] Now anyone not with their program who opens his mouth is asked to leave. but to go where? Most real better alternative places, the truly better choices are diminishing as the supposed Christians who never had more than a façade covering them drop out of sight when any real obstacle appears before them... or they simply join the growing ecumenical crowd following the totalitarian ["Christian"?] way.
The secular government is with them in seeking to eliminate the opposition even though the opposition unbeknownst even to their ministers is quite often God, Himself.
"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them." Luke 17:20-23
 
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amadeus

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What I haven't heard commentary on is how Judaism has a better more graceful approach to the problem of they who are not of the same faith. Judaism allows for righteousness outside their faith. This is huge. And this smacks of grace...rather than law. Could Christianity then just be the foil against Islam to preserve Judaism as the light of the world? By pitting these two against each other?

Well we sure are acting that way.

We should, rather, let the Jews be our example and doing at LEAST what they are doing. And this in the way of having our righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees.
And as we know the way the Jews traveled did not work... yet as you say in this sense now, they have "a better more graceful approach to the problem of they who are not of the same faith" than the way that most describe as Christianity!
 

Reggie Belafonte

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What I haven't heard commentary on is how Judaism has a better more graceful approach to the problem of they who are not of the same faith. Judaism allows for righteousness outside their faith. This is huge. And this smacks of grace...rather than law. Could Christianity then just be the foil against Islam to preserve Judaism as the light of the world? By pitting these two against each other?

Well we sure are acting that way.

We should, rather, let the Jews be our example and doing at LEAST what they are doing. And this in the way of having our righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees.
The Judaism and Islam are what's called a Politically Correct point of view, mans works !
The Holy Sprit is not Politically Correct, thank God.
Judaism and Islam do not have Grace at all, for they are lost.
Judaism and Islam they are lost to God, for no one comes to the Father but through his only begotten Son.

Unless your righteousness exceed that of Political Correctness ? Pharisees are all about Political Correctness, such a thing is a works of man. you must exceed the works of man. One must possess the Holy Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God. other than that you are outside of Grace.
No one has Grace outside of the Holy Spirit.
 

Episkopos

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No one has Grace outside of the Holy Spirit.

This is not about having grace...but about extending grace. If we have received grace then we also need to extend it. And we can do this a lot better if we don't have a totalitarian doctrinal stance.

We can receive a righteous man in the name of a righteous man. And we can also ...on the higher plane...receive a prophet in the name of a prophet.

The idea that we place everyone on the same plane IS that error that causes a totalitarian worldview. What God calls me to do...He is not necessarily calling my neighbour to do, yet my love for him is not diminished for it.

Receive grace....extend grace. Freely you have received....freely give.
 

Episkopos

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I seek balance...because in the end the universe seeks balance. In the days of the development of the A bomb, some weren't sure if the spitting of the atom wouldn't destroy all life on earth. But the power of balance in the world is very strong. We would do well to keep a balanced view or else we will end up being swallowed up by that balance.
 
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brakelite

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Getting back to Islam, there is no way that any right-minded person can put Islam on the same level as Catholicism. Radical Islam is pure hatred for the West, for Christians (including Catholics), and for Jews.
you are correct. They are on entirely different levels. One you can see behaving badly, you know what to expect and you can prepare. The other doesn't tell anyone what she is doing, and what she allows you to see is mostly very agreeable and t reasonable while remaining quietly waiting in the background for her opportunity. Which do you think is more dangerous? The enemy charging at you raising dust and flailing wildly... Or the enemy hiding like a leopard ready to strike when you are not watching.
 
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brakelite

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As for the totalitarianism of what is commonly known as Christianity or Christendom consider the Crusades which @Episkopos also mentioned who chose to fight fire with fire instead of following the Way of Jesus.

"And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them... Luke 9:54-56


Someone is always telling you or me or that other guy to come to his church because his church is the best one and to believe his, or his church's, version of truth, for surely it is the correct one. That started long ago now with simpler even kindly words, but the pressure is increasing now for harsher words and ways against anyone not conforming to certain ecumenical and politically correct standards [rather than God's]. Who will choose to stand with Jesus then...?

Must we lose our heads? The Baptist did!
Must we be physically crucified? Jesus was!
Must we be stoned? Stephen was!


Is one of those choices going to be too hard for us to bear it? If it is, then is perhaps the fear of man in us greater than the Love God in us? Perhaps some of us are Not really then... born again or born from above?

The pressure is already being applied as we see with the rejection of the scriptures or the diminishing importance of the scriptures or the changing meaning of words we use regarding God and the things of God... to something more politically correct to replace the unchangeable Word of God... although they may still name it the Word of God!

People say they follow the Bible, but what most of them follow as we see from our societies are men who have bent or twisted Bible verses to fit their own programs and doctrines... instead of seeking God's kingdom and righteousness first so as to receive God's understanding of that which God anointed men to write.

People speak of the Holy Spirit, but in most church gatherings in most places the Holy Spirit is not allowed to lead and sometimes not even to abide. In the olden days the signs read, "Irish need not apply", but very soon or even now they might read "Holy Ghost manifestations not allowed.] In most "church" meetings man's programs prepared by men determine who is allowed to participate at any given time from the first 'hello' to the last 'goodbye' of each meeting. Who are these men who set the programs? Are any or all of them part of a totalitarian leadership hindering even God Himself with their programs and aimed against anyone who is not completely with them!

"And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Luke 9:49-50


But now even Jesus himself is not among them. He was forbidden long ago though they still may speak his name... as if they knew him.

If they are moving closer together, are they not most often moving away from God because God does not meet their membership requirements?
If they are moving farther apart is it not most often in an 'each to his own' direction which also is moving away from God who is Not the author of confusion?


Where is God?

Not in any totalitarian move where by following their leaders many [perhaps most] people are moving closer to each other in man's unity, which he names: ecumenism... but it is not God's unity. No, they, including undoubtedly some seen here on this forum, are often more concerned with attacking the non-conformist anyone already set apart as a "cultists" simply because they won't embrace the totalitarian [usually known as the Christian] way. God is not in that way!

No...to all of this say some honestly, who really love God! That "some" are likely included in the very few passing through the needle's eye or entering the strait and narrow gate, are they not?

Members of churches and their leaders call their ways Christianity, but too we ask seriously where Jesus is to found in it! They program God out of their 'worship' services; they program in only those pre-approved by the totalitarian leaders (kings as per Hosea 13:9-11 called now: ministers, pastors, evangelists, priests) who meet their own requirements as if they knew better than God how to lead. [They don't ever trust the Holy Spirit to actually lead!] Now anyone not with their program who opens his mouth is asked to leave. but to go where? Most real better alternative places, the truly better choices are diminishing as the supposed Christians who never had more than a façade covering them drop out of sight when any real obstacle appears before them... or they simply join the growing ecumenical crowd following the totalitarian ["Christian"?] way.

The secular government is with them in seeking to eliminate the opposition even though the opposition unbeknownst even to their ministers is quite often God, Himself.

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them." Luke 17:20-23
Would I be correct that the crusades were am attempt by the papacy to take over Jerusalem from Islam so that the Pope could rule from there rather than Rome? And that the majority of soldier's were mercenaries? I don't see much in that scenario of Christianity defending itself from Islam. It is no better than the US invading Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam. Among a few others.
In Europe today there is a cultural war, but interestingly enough or isn't against Catholicism, but it's in the Protestant countries that the Islamists have been making the most trouble. England... Germany.. Scandinavia, France. There are numerous historical connections between Rome and Mecca... Is Europe being set up by two powers working together? Perfect Hegelian dielectric... Create a conflict then step in with the solution.
In America the same culture war is going on against the same Protestant principles, but not so much by Islam by but socialism and fascism... Socialism, like Islam, in Europe, is the one front and centre in America, while fascism, like the papacy, hides in plain sight... And btw, the papacy is fascist..mmmm
 

amadeus

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Would I be correct that the crusades were am attempt by the papacy to take over Jerusalem from Islam so that the Pope could rule from there rather than Rome? And that the majority of soldier's were mercenaries? I don't see much in that scenario of Christianity defending itself from Islam. It is no better than the US invading Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam. Among a few others.
In Europe today there is a cultural war, but interestingly enough or isn't against Catholicism, but it's in the Protestant countries that the Islamists have been making the most trouble. England... Germany.. Scandinavia, France. There are numerous historical connections between Rome and Mecca... Is Europe being set up by two powers working together? Perfect Hegelian dielectric... Create a conflict then step in with the solution.
In America the same culture war is going on against the same Protestant principles, but not so much by Islam by but socialism and fascism... Socialism, like Islam, in Europe, is the one front and centre in America, while fascism, like the papacy, hides in plain sight... And btw, the papacy is fascist..mmmm


I don't really remember the details of all the crusades, but what I do remember is that they turned out to be more of an excuse for plunder on the part of the crusaders than to accomplish whatever the supposed goals were supposed to be. One of the crusades was composed of young children and ended in disaster for the children. They all, I believe, did occur during the times when there were no other large organized Christian groups besides the formal Catholic Church. So I would guess that the Pope was involved. Maybe if I see a book or article of interest I may read up on it, but I have more reading to be done in my future aside from scripture than probably I have time left to live. LOL

Lots of conflicts today, but even if I watched the news regularly, which I don't, who could I trust to provide an unbiased report? Much of what I know about current events are received on forums such as this one by various members. Even here I see sometimes very opposite views of what is happening shown. I have learned enough to know that it is more important to stay close to God than to be an expert current events around the world.

I know more about what is happening in America, but as you indicate not too much positive, and much of what does seem positive may not be from trustworthy persons. How can I know if I don't know the people and it is not something I witnessed myself?
 
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VictoryinJesus

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In those days Israel had no king; all the people did whatever seemed right in their own eyes.
Judges 17:6


Israel had no king...all the people did whatever seemed right in their own eyes. That is so significant, SbG. A excellent quote in considering the contrast of having no king to New Jerusalem above who has the King of Glory and the heart of NT teaching of being led by the Spirit of God. Proverbs 21:1-2 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. [2] Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts.

Galatians 6:14-16 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. [15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. [16] And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
 

bbyrd009

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Which at least to my way of thinking, makes it utterly perplexing why a Christian thinks that he can through politics make people morally presentable. Or even knows who it is he is voting for considering all applicants are potential mystery boxes and you cannot know what is inside until after they explode.
"herding cats"
 

Reggie Belafonte

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This is not about having grace...but about extending grace. If we have received grace then we also need to extend it. And we can do this a lot better if we don't have a totalitarian doctrinal stance.

We can receive a righteous man in the name of a righteous man. And we can also ...on the higher plane...receive a prophet in the name of a prophet.

The idea that we place everyone on the same plane IS that error that causes a totalitarian worldview. What God calls me to do...He is not necessarily calling my neighbour to do, yet my love for him is not diminished for it.

Receive grace....extend grace. Freely you have received....freely give.
Sure but one may be casting pearls before swine, I have made that mistake for 20 years and now understand when to extend and when not to bother now.
I do not bend to any such peoples attempts over me at all now and I do not care what such think. I know that they only glee if they think that they have involved you in any way of their exploit's. they shine with glee when they have thought they have corrupted you in any way into their grubby existence as this gives them power. remember such bastards they will keep tabs.

They sit back looking that you have got into the septic tank with them and say look he is just like one of us,( that's giving them power ) not to mention make out that they can make you dance to their tune as well. they will not give you anything but drag you down, it's a key to their power. they always attempt to bastardise you, it's their number one goal and they will play that game at all times.

Remember that they hated Jesus before they hated you, that's their nature. one may be willing to listen, but you must remember that you are playing with a fire, until they are born again and only then one is on the same page so to speak or willing to listen. anyone who looks down on Jesus forget them. you can not extend Grace as they know not what such is.
I am talking about Grace and not grace, one can see you have grace when you are dealing with them but they don't understand Grace ? for they hate Grace because that puts you beyond their reach of them leading you into the septic tank with them poor deluded bastards.

No ! I am not one of the mob. I do not stand with them, like they who killed Jesus. I will call them out for what game plays they do.