Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Evidence? When did you start using EVIDENCE, or even Scripture for that matter?!?
Bobby Jo
Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies
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Evidence? When did you start using EVIDENCE, or even Scripture for that matter?!?
Bobby Jo
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
I guess ignorance is contagious. Everyone is asking about the 2,300, -- is it years, days, half-days. blah, blah, blah.
Perhaps people should start with the TWO Kings of Media and Persia and then arrive to the rest of the Chapter. Because CYRUS NEVER HAD A DUAL MONARCHY. -- And Alexander's empire was broken up between his FIVE GENERALS, which lasted some 40 years until Lysimachus took Antipater's Macedonia and Greece.
Or POSSIBLY, the ANGEL was correct in that the prophecies are NOT ANCIENT. Whoda thunk ...
Bobby Jo
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
It is obvious BJ that when the RC system which you hold in such high esteem is exposed as a spurious system of worship no holds are barred to discredit any view that brings this to light.....even from a distance.
I am not denying AD 538 as a date (1,260 beginning). The point being addressed is the matter of the timing of the uprooting of the three and the how or what took place as fulfillment, not AD 538 (which is solid historically, even as Heiks proves from the primary sources). What happens is that many are attempting to hard-link the two things. Let me come back to this, and go back to the original questions and replies.
Ok, brother, in short, details as needful, so as not to clutter.
Daniel 8:13-14,26 refer to the 2,300 (Heb. evenings/mornings) (days, vs 26) time prophecy.
Daniel 8:14 specifically gives "unto two thousand and three hundred days" (KJB).
Daniel 8:14 is in the context of Daniel 8:13, which an angel ("one saint" (ie holy one)) asks the wonderful numberer (that 'certain' saint; the Son of the Father) a question, being, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily ..."
Daniel 8:13 and the angels question about "the vision", refers in context to Daniel 8:1-12, in which in vs 1, we read of "a vision" that appears unto Daniel in the 3rd year of the reign of King Belshazzar of Babylon, which comes after the "vision" that Daniel received that took place in Belshazzar's first year (Daniel 8:1 and Daniel 7:1 are connected contextually).
The "vision" of Daniel 8, begins with (vs 3) "a ram which had two horns".
The "ram which had two horns" (vs 3) is identified in Daniel 8:20, "The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia." Thus the "vision" begins in the Medo-Persian Empire. Thus the counting of the 2,300 must also begin there as per the question and answer given in Daniel 8:13-14 and also vs 26. While in Daniel 8, we are not given an exact 'date' to begin counting, we are given the general timeframe of the kingdom of Medo-Persia to look in, and then must look elsewhere in Daniel and the Bible for the more exact time in Medo-Persian reign.
The next part of the "vision" of Daniel 8 that followed the "ram which had two horns", is found in vs 5, in that a new beast is seen on the stage, "... he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.", which is specifically identified in vs 21, "And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king."
Just from an historical perspective, the Medo-Persian Empire, if we begin with Cyrus II (537/6 BC) and consider the number of years between him and Alexander the Great of Greece/Macedon (331 BC) with his defeat of Darius III Codomanus of the Persian empire, is just a little over 200 years. Yet, even here we cannot stop counting, for the "vision" doesn't end with the "first king" of "Grecia", but continues even into its division.
In Daniel 8:8, we read, "Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.", which is identified in vs 22, "Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.", which again is identified in Daniel 11:4, "And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled ..."
[1] Seleucus/Antiochus dynasty (Coele-Syria)
[2] Ptolemaic dynasty (Egypt)
[3] Cassander
[4] Lysimachus
[2] Ptolemaic dynasty (Egypt)
[3] Cassander
[4] Lysimachus
would be historically the 4 divisions of the Grecian empire (while others existed for awhile, such as Antigonus, etc, they all were defeated).
These lasted until the next empire, which in Daniel 2 & 7 and 11 is Pagan Rome, and also the same in Daniel 8. Thus, historically, Grecia from AD 331 unto 168 BC, and so add another 160ish years to our total counting of the "vision". So in dealing with the 2,300, we are not dealing with normal 24hr days or just a few short year, but rather prophetic symbolic time, or many, many 'years' that spanned all these Empires.
In Daniel 8:27, we read that Daniel did not "understand" the whole thing, but only parts. Thus in Daniel 9, we see that Daniel was still thinking upon the "vision" and attempting to study this through the lens of Jeremiah's prophecy of 70 years. In Daniel 9:24-27, we see the same angel come again and reveal to Daniel that there was to be a 70 x 7 time period that was not to last a few short years, but to span many kingdoms from the time of Medo-Persia unto Pagan Rome. We see this in Daniel 9:24 in that the 70 x 7 (490) is "determined" (sectioned from) a larger number, and the only number larger in the context was the 2,300 of Daniel 8's "vision", that was not yet "understood", but was now to be made to "understand".
In Daniel 9:25 we read of this, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be ...", and this "the commandment" was to be found given by God in the Medo-Persian empire as prophesied earlier in Daniel 8's "vision". We find this "the commandment" in the Medo-Persian empire given by God, in Ezra 6:14, finally fulfilled ultimately in Ezra 7:1-28. This was historically, astronomically fixed even, at 457 BC, the 7th year of Artaxexes I Longimanus/Machrocheir's reign. So while in Daniel 8 we did not receive an exact time to begin counting the 2,300, only a general era to look in, but now we have the specific date to calculate from.
457 BC + (70 x 7 (or 490)) = AD 34, remaining 1810 to be counted of the 2,300 (of which the 1,260; 1,290 and 1,335, etc form a part)
457 BC + (7 + 62 (69 or 483)) = AD 27, remaining 7 of (70 x 7) and remaining 1810, etc.
457 BC + (7 + 62 + 3 1/2 (1/2 of final 7)) = AD 31, remaining 3 1/2 (1/2 of final 7) of (70 x 7) and remaining 1810, etc.
So 457 BC + 2,300 = AD 1844
Other dates,
AD 508 + 1,335 = AD 1843/44 (Bible calendar overlap)
Other dates,
AD 538 + 1,260 = AD 1798
AD 508 + 1,290 = AD 1798
Two for a witness, on AD 1798 and AD 1844.
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As I see it, is not really relevant, at all. I simply refer you to Scripture and clear cut SoP/ToJ. In short:
1,290 of Daniel 12:11 = AD 508 unto AD 1798 (antitype in counterfeit to Jesus)
1,335 of Daniel 12:12 = AD 508 unto AD 1843/44
both of which are tied to timing of the removal of "the daily" (Daniel 8:11,12,13, 11:31, 12:11, etc) and coming to the 'yearly' (Revelation 9:13-15; Leviticus 16 & 23, etc), see:
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
These are not future, and not to be counted again. Notice the confirmation, by:
"... "And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And He said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days." {TM 115.1}
It was the Lion of the tribe of Judah who unsealed the book and gave to John the revelation of what should be in these last days. {TM 115.2}
Daniel stood in his lot to bear his testimony which was sealed until the time of the end, when the first angel's message should be proclaimed to our world. ..." - Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers (1923); pages 115.1 - 115.3
The first Angels message went forward in AD 1842, as is confirmed by.
The specific words “prophetic periods” deal with a very Biblical rule:
The AD 1798 date has two witnesses:
[1] Daniel 7:25, 12:7; Luke 21:24; Revelation 11:2,3, 12:6,14, 13:5 – the 1,260 [42 months or time, times, and half/dividing a time]
[2] Daniel 8:11, 11:31, 12:11 – the 1,290
As I prayed about this and thought on it, I was led back to the original 1843 and 1850 charts, of which replicas were given to me by my sisters. Once I studied more closely the 1843 chart, the true second witness leapt out at me, and it had been on the 1843 chart the whole time! As I considered this, I needed to confirm through the various pioneers which had gave rise to the chart.
The AD 1843/44 date has two, [even three] witnesses:
Please notice at the bottom of the 1843 Chart is the numbers:
Please notice at the top of the 1843 Chart, the other prophecy reaching to 1843:
Yet this was all before the disappointment before the Great Disappointment of AD 1844. Thus we have 2 true Prophetic Periods, which ended in AD 1844.
I can confirm this with many SoP/ToJ and pioneer quotations. I can give them in very brief or in full if you so desire.
PS - I will include the PDF study for you, see attachment. You can also Download it here - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/1335.pdf
It was the Lion of the tribe of Judah who unsealed the book and gave to John the revelation of what should be in these last days. {TM 115.2}
Daniel stood in his lot to bear his testimony which was sealed until the time of the end, when the first angel's message should be proclaimed to our world. ..." - Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers (1923); pages 115.1 - 115.3
The first Angels message went forward in AD 1842, as is confirmed by.
"... In these cities the message of the first angel went with great power in 1842 and 1843 ..." - Counsels on Health (1923), page 547.2
I have a lot more detail on this. A few more excepts from my studies, based upon questions that were asked of me as I ministered at AFmin:
"... the chart [1843] contains many prophetic periods – but which ones (plural) end in 1844?”
Evidence cited:
[1] Spiritual Gifts, pages 133-140.
[2] Early Writings, pages 232-237, 243-44.
[3] The Great Controversy (1888), pages 456-457."
[2] Early Writings, pages 232-237, 243-44.
[3] The Great Controversy (1888), pages 456-457."
The specific words “prophetic periods” deal with a very Biblical rule:
The AD 1798 date has two witnesses:
[1] Daniel 7:25, 12:7; Luke 21:24; Revelation 11:2,3, 12:6,14, 13:5 – the 1,260 [42 months or time, times, and half/dividing a time]
[2] Daniel 8:11, 11:31, 12:11 – the 1,290
The AD 1843/44 date has two, [even three] witnesses:
[1] Daniel 8:13-14,26 – the 2,300
[2] Daniel 12:11,12 – the 1,335
[3] Revelation 9:15, 10:6, 14:6-7; Leviticus 23:27-32; 1 Kings 8:2 KJB, the “hour”, “day”, “month” and “year”. The “hour” of His Judgment, the “day” of Atonement, aka the 10th “day”, of the “seventh” month, Ethanim; in the Year, when “time” would be no longer.
Herein is the answer to the statements and questions concerning the “prophetic periods” that ended in AD 1843/44:[2] Daniel 12:11,12 – the 1,335
[3] Revelation 9:15, 10:6, 14:6-7; Leviticus 23:27-32; 1 Kings 8:2 KJB, the “hour”, “day”, “month” and “year”. The “hour” of His Judgment, the “day” of Atonement, aka the 10th “day”, of the “seventh” month, Ethanim; in the Year, when “time” would be no longer.
[1] The 1,335 and the [2] 2,300 are the true “prophetic periods” [plural] that ended in AD 1843/1844 [7th month movement, which included both disappointments, and the re-adjustment of the dates].
See the Millerite 1843 Chart, and please take careful notice that the Chart reveals two prophetic periods [2,300 and the 1,335 [bottom of the chart] -
[1] - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Millerite_1843_chart.jpg
[2] - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Millerite_1843_chart_2.jpg
[1] - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Millerite_1843_chart.jpg
[2] - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Millerite_1843_chart_2.jpg
Please notice at the bottom of the 1843 Chart is the numbers:
[1]
508 [AD]
1335 [Day/Years]
---------------------
1843 [AD]
508 [AD]
1335 [Day/Years]
---------------------
1843 [AD]
Please notice at the top of the 1843 Chart, the other prophecy reaching to 1843:
[2]
2300 [Day/Years]
457 [BC]
---------------------
1843 [AD]
2300 [Day/Years]
457 [BC]
---------------------
1843 [AD]
Yet this was all before the disappointment before the Great Disappointment of AD 1844. Thus we have 2 true Prophetic Periods, which ended in AD 1844.
I can confirm this with many SoP/ToJ and pioneer quotations. I can give them in very brief or in full if you so desire.
PS - I will include the PDF study for you, see attachment. You can also Download it here - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/1335.pdf
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Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Ohhh BJ...you incriminate yourself with your cut and paste. May God open your eyes.... that when it comes to "blather", YOU WIN!
Now please go away,
Bobby Jo
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Thanks for both posts RC....appreciate you taking the time with the detail
You are most welcome brother. Anytime, really. If you have any more questions that we can look at together, I do not mind, as I love Bible study with my brothers/sisters, who love the word of God.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
I am only going to ask this once, and in charity (1 Cor. 13). Please refrain from such comments in this thread, as they are not germane to the OP topic. I am asking you, please. Please, stick to the OP topic. If you desire to show someone in error about anything pertaining to the OP, prove this from scripture.
Okay. I have an open mind regarding scripture, and I couldn't think of any event that was more significant than 538, except perhaps for 533-1793... The ratifying of the two laws.. Justinian and Napoleon.
So okay, we have traditional taught that the goods were the final of the three, but even they persisted I little and returned to Rome later...I have wondered about that, but never had the time to look for an alternative.
Hello Greetings
I am a newbie here, my name is Oseas (Hosea), I am from Joinville-Brazil-I like to study prophecies and to decipher the deep enigmas of the Word of God. I my understand we are living in the time of Apocalypse, we are living in the last times, and many prophecies are being fulfilled and many will be fulfilled in the presente time, like those written in Daniel 12 and Revelation 12, for instance, that are being commented here.
May the LORD God bless us
I am a newbie here, my name is Oseas (Hosea), I am from Joinville-Brazil-I like to study prophecies and to decipher the deep enigmas of the Word of God. I my understand we are living in the time of Apocalypse, we are living in the last times, and many prophecies are being fulfilled and many will be fulfilled in the presente time, like those written in Daniel 12 and Revelation 12, for instance, that are being commented here.
May the LORD God bless us
Which I wouldn't really take issue with (533 - 1793) except nowhere in the SoP/ToJ is that range specifically mentioned, as opposed to 538-1798.
As far as I am aware, not a single SoP/ToJ statement references AD "533" directly.
AD "533" is mentioned by others (pioneers), but always in connection to AD 538, for instance:
"... 7. The Rise of the Papacy - the Little Horn of Dan. 7th. - Mr. Miller claimed that the one thousand two hundred and sixty years of the Papacy were to be reckoned from A. D. 538, by virtue of the decree of Justinian. This decree, though issued A. D. 533, did not go into full effect until 538, when the enemies of the Catholics in Rome were subjugated by Belisarius, a general of Justinian. In this view, as to the rise of Papacy, he was sustained by Croly (see his work on Apoc., pp.113-117); G. T. Noel (see Prospects of Ch., p.100); Wm. Cunninghame, Esq. (Pol. Destiny of the Earth, p.28); Keith, vol. 1, p.93; Encyclopedia of Rel. Knowl., art. Antichrist; Edward King, Esq., and others. {1853 SB, MWM 197.4} ..." - Memoirs of William Miller, 197.4
"... But these provisions of the Justinian code [AD 533; context] could not go into effect in favor of the Bishop of Rome at the time they were issued, because Rome and Italy were then in possession of the Ostrogoths,-who, being strongly attached to the Arian faith, were as violently opposed to the religion of Justinian, as they were envious of his imperial wealth and power. It was not till the conquest of Rome, in March, 538, that the Catholic bishop could exercise the power with which he had been clothed by the Emperor. ..." - The Time, Times and Half a Time, 1,260 days, or Years, and 42 months, by Apollos Hale, page 89.1
"... To these extended, but important extracts, but one remark needs to be added. The efforts which resulted in the actual supremacy of the See of Rome by placing the haughty Vigilius in full possession, in 538, were commenced as early as 533: so, in its fall, the first shock of the earthquake which prostrated the Papal throne to the dust in 1798, was given in 1793, when the Republic of France "declared that death was an eternal sleep; that Christianity was an imposture; and that there was no God!" (Croly, p. 61.) {1843 ApH, TSAM 93.1}
The 1260 years must begin somewhere within the period of these transactions,-the writing of the letter of Justinian to the Pope, the issuing of the "Novellæ," and the conquest of the city of Rome. So their end must be dated within the period of the corresponding transactions, the laws of the republic which abolished Popery in France, and the captivity of the Pope in his ancient capital by the republican armies. Mr. Miller adopts the date in both cases when the events were completed. {1843 ApH, TSAM 93.2} ..." - The Time, Times and Half a Time, 1,260 days, or Years, and 42 months, by Apollos Hale, pages 93.1 - 93.2
The 1260 years must begin somewhere within the period of these transactions,-the writing of the letter of Justinian to the Pope, the issuing of the "Novellæ," and the conquest of the city of Rome. So their end must be dated within the period of the corresponding transactions, the laws of the republic which abolished Popery in France, and the captivity of the Pope in his ancient capital by the republican armies. Mr. Miller adopts the date in both cases when the events were completed. {1843 ApH, TSAM 93.2} ..." - The Time, Times and Half a Time, 1,260 days, or Years, and 42 months, by Apollos Hale, pages 93.1 - 93.2
"... At the time of the division of the empire the bishops were greedy for civil power, and in the time of national distress the church grasped the reins of government; the little horn had received power. This was a. d. 538, when the last of the three horns was plucked up and the decree Justinian made in 533 went into effect. ..." - The Story Of Daniel the Prophet, by S. N. Haskell, page 95.3
"... Now, in 533, this question was raised again, and Justinian became involved in the dispute. {1891 ATJ, TTR 548.1} ...
... Therefore, the year A. D. 538, which marks the conquest of Italy, the deliverance of Rome, and the destruction of the kingdom of the Ostrogoths, is the true date which marks the establishment of the temporal authority of the papacy, and the exercise of that authority as a world-power. ..." - The Two Republics, by A.T. Jones, pages 548.1, 553.1
... Therefore, the year A. D. 538, which marks the conquest of Italy, the deliverance of Rome, and the destruction of the kingdom of the Ostrogoths, is the true date which marks the establishment of the temporal authority of the papacy, and the exercise of that authority as a world-power. ..." - The Two Republics, by A.T. Jones, pages 548.1, 553.1
As for AD "1793", it is mentioned (see GC 1888/1911, page (1888/1911) 218.3, (1888) 230.1, (1911) 230.2, (1888/1911) 269.4, (1911) 276.3, (1888) 286.1, (1911) 287.1, (1888) 287.2), but it is tied to the passages of Revelation 11:9,11, and the 3 1/2 years, of 1793-1797/8, which is the beginning of the counting to the 50 years Jubilee (AD 1793 to AD 1843), with the 40 years (as Jesus stayed forty days after) taking place before it (1793 to 1833).
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The issue that H. Heiks (and S. Bohr, myself and others, etc) addresses, is this exactly. It is dealing with something specific, not so much the outward appearance of 'kingdom' (for instance the fact that vestiges of armies remain, doesn't mean that a functioning Kingdom still existed). If I may, have you considered these works (already mentioned)? If not, I might be able to hand type some of the material for you to consider.
Daniel 12:v.1-3 & 10-12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up (Revelation 12:v.1-2 & 5 & 7), the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake(resurrection-(1Thes.4:v.16), some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. - 1,290 days
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. - 1.335 days - 45 days after the end of Abomination of Desolation -
This day 1.335 - 45 days after the end of Abomination of Desolation - it is the most wonderfull day of the Christian Calendar in the history of mankind, except the day of Jesus's birth.
Matthew 24:v.15
JESUS warned: When ye therefore see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place - in Jerusalem - , (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Revelation 20:v.1-3
1 And I saw an angel - actually an archangel - come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the Dragon (the red Dragon), that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,...
I have read Steven Bohr's material yes. I am very comfortable with the 539-1798 time period...I am interested in your (correct) observation that it was but a presumption to
Insist that all 3 horns must be deposed by 538. Many years ago I had a very interesting discussion with a Pentecostal pastor in these issues, and he mentioned other tribal kingdoms that could have equally been included in the (10) which I had never considered. Those were they of the eastern Empire... Such as the Gepids and the Bulgars for example... The pastors point bring that eastern time was not conquered until the 15th century... His question being why should the prophetic focus be only on the western Empire?
Sorry about the spelling in my post you quoted... You seem to have understand it nevertheless. Well done.
@ReChoired I have also read Steven Haskell's work, and some of Jones The Two Republics... That was heavy going but deeply enlightening.
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