Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies

Bobby Jo · Dec 22, 2019

ReChoired said:
I am only going to ask this once, and in charity (1 Cor. 13). Please refrain from such comments in this thread, as they are not germane to the OP topic. I am asking you, please. Please, stick to the OP topic. If you desire to show someone in error about anything pertaining to the OP, prove this from scripture.

You're asking the wrong person. I only RESPOND to the nonsense. Did you think I would let it go unanswered? -- Yeah, not.

So back to the subject at hand, -- exactly who are the TWO KINGS of Media and Persia. Cyrus NEVER had a dual monarchy, so it couldn't apply to that ancient history. Perhaps if you started at the beginning of this prophecy, you could arrive to the end-time era in which the specifics are destined, exactly as the 12:4 & 9 angel DEMANDS.

Or maybe there is more than ONE BLIND MAN posting in this topic!

Bobby Jo

ReChoired · Dec 23, 2019

brakelite said:
@ReChoired I have also read Steven Haskell's work, and some of Jones The Two Republics... That was heavy going but deeply enlightening.

Yea, I read the entirety of Two Republics and its appendices (I find that the first 4 and last four chapters with appendices really sum it up well if ever recommending it to others). Haskell's work you would have to be more specific, but I have completely read Haskell's material on Daniel and Revelation, and Uriah's Smith's etc.

Bobby Jo · Dec 23, 2019

ReChoired said:
... and Uriah's Smith's etc.

LOL (a "phrase" I detest, but you actually made me LAUGH-OUT-LOUD). -- What a silly book, filled with False Scripture, False History, and False assertions.

Newton also laughed, and then failed in his own attempt and refused to publish BECAUSE HE HAD INTEGRITY. Perhaps the angel (12:4 & 9) should be obeyed. Or perhaps not ...

Silly people,
Bobby Jo

ReChoired · Dec 23, 2019

brakelite said:
I have read Steven Bohr's material yes. I am very comfortable with the 539-1798 time period...I am interested in your (correct) observation that it was but a presumption to
Insist that all 3 horns must be deposed by 538. Many years ago I had a very interesting discussion with a Pentecostal pastor in these issues, and he mentioned other tribal kingdoms that could have equally been included in the (10) which I had never considered. Those were they of the eastern Empire... Such as the Gepids and the Bulgars for example... The pastors point bring that eastern time was not conquered until the 15th century... His question being why should the prophetic focus be only on the western Empire?

It is more than interesting to note, that sister White, did not cite any specific listing of the "ten", nor of the "three", in any of her works. I take that as meaning, there was no specific listing, and that "ten" is as scripture says, representative of "whole" (all, however many there be), as seen in Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, and other places in scripture. She also never makes the mistake of equaling the 10 horns of Daniel 7 to the 10 horns of Revelation 17, as many do today. There are connections between Daniel 2 and Revelation 17 though. See for yourself - Ellen G. White Writings

When she mentions "plucked up by the roots" it is always in connection with the scriptural definition, which is to mean "twice dead" - Ellen G. White Writings

Well, for instance, the listing that H. Heiks gives for the 'western' Roman Empire, are as follows:

"... Alemanni, Basques, Belgi, Burgundians, Dacians, Franks, Gauls, Helvetii, Heruli, Iberians, Italians, Libyans, Lombards, Ostrogoths, Saxons, Slavic, Vandals, Visigoths. ..." - AD 508 Source Book, by Heidi Heiks, Chapter 2. The Ten Horns, page 27

"... Even those tribes that invaded the Western Roman Empire numbered more than ten:

Allemanni, Burgundians, Celts, Franks, Gauls, Germani, Heruli, Huns, Lombard, Moors, Ostrogoths, Quodi, Suevi, Vandals, Visigoths. ..." - AD 508 Source Book, by Heidi Heiks, Chapter 2. The Ten Horns, page 28

The focus of the action in Daniel 7 (and also 8), is with the 'western' aspect of the Roman empire, as it attacks Jerusalem, and whose power was centered in Italy (Rome). This natural power, then transitions to the spiritual power which was also centered in Italy (Rome). Revelation 17 identifies the city of seven mountains, as does Daniel 11, with the 'tax'. The focus is never removed toward the 'eastern' portion of the Roman empire or Constantinople. For instance, see - Ellen G. White Writings

Grotius stated, or cited as:

"... the ten horns, or kings, who rule with the beast one hour are the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Van dals, Gepidae, Lombards, Heruli, Burgundians, Huns, Franks, Anglo Saxons. ..." - Grotius, Commenfatio, pp. 33-47; Annotations, pp. 1205-1211, 1215, 1223., as cited in The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume II, page 523.3

William Burnett cited as:

"... He interprets the seven heads as forms of government and names the ten horns–Visigoths, Vandals, Francks, Burgundians, Hunns, Alans, Sueves, Herules, Ostrogoths, and Lombards. 21 The three horns plucked up were the Herules, Ostrogoths, and Lombards. ..." - William Burnet, An Essay on Scripture-Prophecy, p. 87-77, as cited in The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume III, page 171.1

Captain Maitland, as cited:

"... In his Brief and Connected View of Prophecy, Captain Maitland holds that the four beast-kingdoms of Daniel 7 are the "exact counterpart of the image in the first vision, 72 the ten horns being the same as the ten toes of the former prophecy. He gives the standard tabulation of the four beasts, 73 and names the ten horn-nations-Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Sueves and Alans, Vandals, Franks, Burgundians, Heruli and Thuringi, Saxons and Angles, Huns, and Lombards. 74 {1946 LEF, PFF3 362.2}..." - Charles David Maitland, A Brief and Connected View of Prophecy, p. 18, as cited in The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume III, page 362.2

William Cunninghame, as cited:

"... In concurrence he cites Mede, Newton, Faber, Alcazar, Cressener, and Daubuz. 28 He lists the ten horns as the Visigoths, Snevi, Heruli, Franks, Burgundians, Saxons, Huns, Ostrogoths, Lombards, and Vandals, 29 ..." - Wiliiam Cuninghame, Dissertation on the Seals and 7 trumpets of the Apocalypse, p. 181., as cited in The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume III, page 368.1

George Croly, as cited:

"... The ten horns are those named by Machiavelli and Bishop Lloyd-the Huns (356), Ostrogoths (377), Visigoths (378), Franks (407), Vandals (407), Sueves and Alans (107). Burgundians (407), Heruli and Turingi (476), Saxons and Angles (476), and Lombards (526), 77 ..." - George Croly, Apocalypse of St. John, Preface, p. 229,230, as cited in The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume III, page 547.1

Amzi Armstrong, as cited:

"... The ten horns are the ten kingdoms —Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Suevi and Alans, Burgundians, Heruli and Turingi, Anglo-Saxons, and Lombards-ten horn-nations ..." - Amzi Armstrong, A Syllabus of Lectures on the Visions of the Revelation, pp. 99-107, 114, 119-132, 137-140, as cited in The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume IV, page 196.4

Edward Winthrop, as cited:

"... Western Rome being divided into ten Romano-Gothic horn kingdoms—originally the Vandals, Suevi, Visigoths, Alans, Burgundians, Franks, Saxons, Ostrogoths, Lombards, and Heruli. ..." - Edward Winthrop, Letters on the Prophetic Scriptures, pp. 113-118, 122-128, 132, 133, 135, 139-141. He seems to make "Antichrist" embrace both beasts—civil rulers and ecclesiastical hierarchies. (Ibid., pp. 68, 84.), as cited in The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume IV, page 352.2

Goodloe Harper Bell, as cited:

"... The ten horns represent the ten kingdoms—the Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Suevi, Burgundians, Heruli, Anglo-Saxons, and Lombards. In his notes Bell cites Rollin, Joseph us, Scott, Clarke, Machiavelli, Lloyd, Hales, and others. {1954 LEF, PFF4 1133.1} ..." - Goodloe H. Bell, Progressive Bible Lessons for Youth, pp. 110-135, as cited in The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Volume IV, page 1133.1

ReChoired · Dec 23, 2019

brakelite said:
I have read Steven Bohr's material yes. I am very comfortable with the 539-1798 time period...I am interested in your (correct) observation that it was but a presumption to
Insist that all 3 horns must be deposed by 538. Many years ago I had a very interesting discussion with a Pentecostal pastor in these issues, and he mentioned other tribal kingdoms that could have equally been included in the (10) which I had never considered. Those were they of the eastern Empire... Such as the Gepids and the Bulgars for example... The pastors point bring that eastern time was not conquered until the 15th century... His question being why should the prophetic focus be only on the western Empire?

It is more than interesting to note, that sister White, did not cite any specific listing of the "ten", nor of the "three", in any of her works. I take that as meaning, there was no specific listing, and that "ten" is as scripture says, representative of "whole" (all, however many there be), as seen in Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, and other places in scripture. She also never makes the mistake of equalling the 10 horns of Daneil 7 to the 10 horns of Revelation 17, as many do today. There are connections between Daniel 2 and Revelation 17 though. See for yourself - Ellen G. White Writings

When she mentions "plucked up by the roots" it is always in connection with the scriptural definition, which is to mean "twice dead" - Ellen G. White Writings

G. I. Butler stated,

"... The ten horns, he also says, are "ten kings," or kingdoms, which are evidently the kingdoms of the Western empire, into which Rome was divided between the years 351 and 483 AD. These the commentators inform us were the Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Suevi, Burgundians, Heruli, Anglo-Saxons, and Lombards. {1904 GIB, CHS 167.1} ..." - The Change Of The Sabbath, by G. I. Butler, page 167.1

Josiah Litch gave,

"... Those ten kingdoms, as given by Machiavel the historian, and the time of their settlement, as given by Bishop Lloyd, I will here introduce. 1. The Huns in Hungary, [80] A. D. 356. 2. The Ostrogoths in Mysia, A. B. 377. 3. The Visigoths in Pannonia, A. D. 378. 4. The Franks in France, A. D. 407. 5. The Vandals in Africa, A. D. 407. 6. The Sueves and Alans in Gascoigne and Spain, A. D. 407. 7. The Burgundians in Burgundy, A. D. 407. 8. The Heruli and Rugii or Turingi in Italy, A. D. 476. 9. The Saxons and Angles in Britain, A. D. 476. 10. The Lombards on the Danube in Germany, A. D. 483. ..." - The Probability of the Second Coming of Christ, about AD 1843, by Josiah Litch, page 79.2

Josiah Litch and William Miller:

"... The ten kingdoms he [William Miller] considered to be "England, France, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Austria, Prussia, Ravenna, Lombardy, and Rome." 3 Josiah Litch felt, however, that the ten horns signified the Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Suevi and Alans, the Burgundians, the Heruli and "Rugii or Thuringi," the Saxons and Angles, and the Lombards. The little horn was interpreted by Miller, as was done by many other evangelical Protestants, as the papal power which arose among these ten kingdoms. Litch designated the three horns that were plucked up as the Heruli, Ostrogoths, and Vandals. According to Miller they represented Ravenna, Lombardy, and Rome and were called the "states of the Church" by the pope's authority. ..." - Foundations of the Seventh-day Adventist Message and Mission, page 23.1

Uriah Smith gives,

"... Rome was divided into ten kingdoms between the years A.D.356 and 483, as follows: Huns, A.D.356, Ostrogoths, 377, Visigoths, 378, Franks, 407, Vandals, 407, Suevi, 407, Burgundians, 407, Heruli, 476, Anglo-Saxons, 476, Lombards, 483. This enumeration of the ten kingdoms is given by Machiavel in his History of Florence, lib.1. The dates are furnished by Bishop Lloyd, and the whole is approved by Bishop Newton, Faber and Dr. Hales. {1878 UrS, TBI 42.1} ..." - The Biblical Institute, by Uriah Smith, page 42.1

"... As already noticed in chapter 2, Rome was divided into ten kingdoms, enumerated as follows: The Huns, the Ostrogoths, the Visigoths, the Franks, the Vandals, the Suevi, the Burgundians, the Heruli, the Anglo-Saxons, and the Lombards. These divisions have ever since been spoken of as the ten kingdoms of the Roman empire. See on chapter 2:41,42; also Appendix III. {1897 UrS, DAR 132.2} ..." - Daniel and the Revelation, by Uriah Smith, page 132.2

"... The ten kingdoms which rose out of the old Roman empire are enumerated as follows by Machiavel, indorsed by Bishop Newton, Faber, and Dr. [110] Hales: 1. The Huns; 2. The Ostrogoths; 3. The Visigoths; 4. The Franks; 5. The Vandals; 6. The Suevi; 7. The Burgundians; 8. The Heruli; 9. The Anglo-Saxons; and l0. The Lombards. ..." - The Marvel of Nations, by Uriah Smith, page 109.1

"... The fourth great and terrible beast had ten horns. These are declared to be ten kingdoms which should arise out of this empire. Dan.7:24. These correspond to the ten toes of the image. Rome was divided into ten kingdoms between the years A.D. 356 and 483, as follows: Huns, A.D. 356; Ostrogoths, 377; Visigoths, 378; Franks, 407; Vandals, 407; Suevi, 407; Burgundians, 407; Heruli, 476; Anglo-Saxon, 476; Lombards, 483. This enumeration of the ten kingdoms is given by Machiavel in his History of Florence, lib. 1. The dates are furnished by Bishop Lloyd, and the whole is approved by Bishop Newton, Faber, and Dr. Hales. {1884 UrS, SYNPT 13.2} ..." - Synopsis of the Present Truth, by Uriah Smith, page 13.2

"... The ten kingdoms which arose out of the old Roman Empire are enumerated as follows by Machiavel, indorsed by Bp. Newton, Faber, and Dr. Hales: 1. The Huns. 2. The Ostrogoths. 3. The Visigoths. 4. The Franks. 5. The Vandals. 6. The Suevi. 7. The Burgundians. 8. The Heruli. 9. The Anglo-Saxons, and 10. The Lombards. ..." - The United States in the Light of Prophecy, by Uriah Smith, page 36.1

James White stated:

"... The prophet considered the ten horns. These represent: 1. Huns. 2. The Ostrogoths. 3. The Visigoths. 4. The Franks. 5. The Vandals. 6. The Suevi. 7. The Burgundians. 8. The Heruli. 9. The Anglo-Saxons. 10. The Lombards. ..." - The Judgment, by James White, page 6.2

"... According to Marchiaval, the historian, (Hist. of Florence, book 1,) and Bishop Lloyd, an excellent chronologer, (in Lowth's Commentary on the Prophets, pp. 381-2,) and Dr. Hale's Analysis of Chronology, (Vol. 2,b.1, pp. 536-8,) the first ten kingdoms were as follows:- 1. The Huns, in Hungary, A. D. 356. 2. The Ostrogoths, in Mysia, A. D. 377. 3. The Visigoths, in Pannonia, A. D. 378. 4. The Franks, in France, A. D. 407. 5. The Vandals, in Africa, A. D. 407. 6. The Sueves and Alans, in Gascoigne and Spain, A. D. 407. 7. The Burgundians, in Burgundy, A. D. 407. 8. The Heruli and Rugii, or Thuringi, in Italy, A. D. 476. 9. The Saxons and Angles, in Britain, A. D. 476. 10. The Lombards, in Germany, A. D. 483. ..." - The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, by James White, June 20, 1854, page 161.28

"... The ten horns are usually enumerated as follows: 1. The Huns. 2. The Ostrogoths. 3. The Visigoths. 4. The Franks. 5. The Vandals. 6. The Suevi. 7. The Burgundians. 8. The Heruli and Rugli, or Thuringi. 9. The Anglo-Saxons, and 10. The Lombards. ..." - The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, April 15, 1862, page 157.12

"... the ten kingdoms that arose out of the Roman empire, namely, the Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Suevi, Burgundians, Heruli, Anglo-Saxons, and Lombards. ..." - The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, December 9, 1862, page 157.12

Joshua V. Himes (Signs of the Times):

"... its ten horns are the ten kingdoms of the Gothic nations, which, towards the fifth century, all at once (as if at the word of command, from the banks of the Vistula to the Roman frontiers,) invaded, with a view to retain, under a divided form, the vast empire of the Latins, namely:--the Visigoths, Herules Ostrogoths, Francks, Burgundians, Vandals, Alans, Sucoi, Gepides, and Lombards! {July 3, 1844 JVHe, HST 169.33} ..." - Signs of the Times, July 3, 1844; page 169.33

Stephen Nelson Haskell stated:

"... The ten tribes, namely, the Ostrogoths, the Lombards, the Heruli, the Vandals, the Visigoths, the Suevi, the Saxons, the Huns, the Burgundians, and the Franks, were by that time, or a few years later, settled within the borders of the Western Empire True, the Vandals, Heruli, and Ostrogoths were of short duration, having been, before the year 538, “plucked up” ..." - The Story of the Seer of Patmos, by S. N. Haskell, page 192.1

and so on.

ReChoired · Dec 23, 2019

Bobby Jo said:
LOL (a "phrase" I detest, but you actually made me LAUGH-OUT-LOUD). -- What a silly book, filled with False Scripture, False History, and False assertions. ...

If you refer to my comment on Uriah Smith's Daniel and the Revelation, I never stated I agree with everything in that book, and especially not the original printing, since it carries his semi-arian theology, which was later removed in subsequent printings. Even beyond Uriah Smith's heretical views on the nature of the Son of God, which is rightly removed, I also very much disagree with many other things in said book, such as his material on the 7 trumpets, and especially the trumpets 5-7, which are in complete error. However, there is great historical and spiritual material in said book, if one is mature enough to know how to weed out the erroneous materials in it.

Bobby Jo · Dec 23, 2019

ReChoired said:
... there is great historical and spiritual material in said book, ...

An account based upon a lie, and filled with lies ... is worth it's weight in lies.

Bobby Jo

Keraz · Dec 23, 2019

Making the invaders and conquerors of the Roman Empire, to be the ten kingdoms of Daniel 7:24 and Revelation 17:12, is just error.
It may be possible to make some parallels, but generally, and especially the results of their conquest; is far different from what the Bible says.

We still await the division of the whole world into 10 regions, as proposed by the One World Govt proponents now. It will happen, there is coming a natural disaster that will force the nations to give up their sovereignty.
Bible believers should not be in the dark about it.

brakelite · Dec 23, 2019

Keraz said:
there is coming a natural disaster

Or perhaps a man made natural disaster called climate change? The Bible tells us that the times of the end shall be characterised by deception... What greater deception than to convince the world they are about to die... It's happening now.

brakelite · Dec 23, 2019

Bobby Jo said:
You're asking the wrong person. I only RESPOND to the nonsense. Did you think I would let it go unanswered? -- Yeah, not.

So back to the subject at hand, -- exactly who are the TWO KINGS of Media and Persia. Cyrus NEVER had a dual monarchy, so it couldn't apply to that ancient history. Perhaps if you started at the beginning of this prophecy, you could arrive to the end-time era in which the specifics are destined, exactly as the 12:4 & 9 angel DEMANDS.

Or maybe there is more than ONE BLIND MAN posting in this topic!
Bobby Jo

As has been explained to you previously, the angel said 'time of the end', and even t he apostles said they were living in that time. The angel did not say 'the end of time'. There is a vast difference... After increasing revelation since the mid 19th century when godly men of differing faith persuasions and from different parts of the world, all agreed that the prophecies of Daniel and revelation were beginning to unfold in their lifetime and began to preach in earnest the second coming, that was when the time of the end arrived in its fullest and the prophecies of Daniel were opened to people's understanding.... Today, one could confidently say we are nearing the end of time... A time when we need that understanding, and God has not left us in ignorance. Except you maybe, and a few others with eyes wide shut.

ReChoired · Dec 23, 2019

Keraz said:
Making the invaders and conquerors of the Roman Empire, to be the ten kingdoms of Daniel 7:24 and Revelation 17:12, is just error.
It may be possible to make some parallels, but generally, and especially the results of their conquest; is far different from what the Bible says.

We still await the division of the whole world into 10 regions, as proposed by the One World Govt proponents now. It will happen, there is coming a natural disaster that will force the nations to give up their sovereignty.
Bible believers should not be in the dark about it.

Daniel 7 isn't the same as Revelation 17. That is the mistake. Daniel 2 is related to Revelation 17, as there are ten toes at the end (not 10, then 7, as in Daniel 7).

It is not that the invaders are the ten kingdoms. It is that those divisions of the Roman empire are the "ten", not the invaders (like Huns, etc).

ReChoired · Dec 23, 2019

Keraz said:
...We still await the division of the whole world into 10 regions, as proposed by the One World Govt proponents now. ...

No, the scripture relates the "ten horns" (Rev. 17) as equal to "the kings of the earth", and thus "ten" is symbolic (Ecc. 12:13-14, etc) of the whole world and their leaders (with their armies). It already exists to some extent (yet it has no real authority, yet), and sits upon the 7th Head, Apostate Protestant U.S.A., as the "United Nations", whose leaders represent the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, in opposition to Christ Jesus. So even if the world will be subdivided into 10 regions (several 'maps' exist to such extent), there is no king over each region. The number 10 refers to wholeness of the worlds kings (how ever many there are), and the whole political world will eventually turn upon the Papacy in each of their jurisdictions (Rev. 17:16) in the time to come, when all is unmasked. See the contrast of the "kings of the earth", with the "kings" under Christ. The devil is simply counterfeiting Jesus and His kingdom, for the Christians are the "kings" beneath Him (Jesus), and dwell in all parts of the earth. The "7" is simply the counterfeit of the 7 branch candlestick of the sanctuary, for as Jesus is the Tree, the Light of the World (as also Christians which make up that tree as branches), so too the devil is a corrupt "tree" (a false angel of light) with bad fruit and 'branches" (Mal. 4:1). Each of the 7, in the kingdom of satan, represents a form of his government, spiritually speaking, from the time of Babylon (mystical religion), for as the serpent in the Garden only had 1 head, by the end of Revelation the fullness of his false government (7, then resurrected, an 8th (#5 with aid of #7)) will have been displayed for what it is and unmasked. The "ten" is also connected as "horns" to "power" or "authority" or "command", and so the devil counterfeit the Ten Commandments (Ten Authorities) in global government.

Keraz · Dec 23, 2019

brakelite said:
Or perhaps a man made natural disaster called climate change? The Bible tells us that the times of the end shall be characterised by deception... What greater deception than to convince the world they are about to die... It's happening now.

Why not believe what the Bible prophets say will happen?
'Climate change' is a crock, promoted by those with the agenda of transferring wealth to the 3rd world nations and believed by the gullible.
About to die? From using your car or throwing away a plastic cup?

Our climate is entirely driven by the sun. It has a cyclical nature and we are currently in a warmer period.
But it will be the sun that will cause the dramatic event, which will set the scene for the establishment of a One World Govt.

Keraz · Dec 23, 2019

ReChoired said:
Daniel 7 isn't the same as Revelation 17. That is the mistake. Daniel 2 is related to Revelation 17, as there are ten toes at the end (not 10, then 7, as in Daniel 7).

It is not that the invaders are the ten kingdoms. It is that those divisions of the Roman empire are the "ten", not the invaders (like Huns, etc).

Daniel 7:24 The ten 'horns' represent the ten kings [Presidents] who will be appointed to rule the 'beast' kingdom. Soon after this, another powerful man will arise and he will take over 3 of the ten kingdoms.
We see in Daniel 11:21-31, how that one man will take over dictatorial control of all the world. Paralleled by Revelation 13:1-4 and Revelation 17:11-13

I reject all of your post #312, as being preterist and speculative nonsense.

ReChoired · Dec 23, 2019

Keraz said:
...We see in Daniel 11:21-31 ...

Already past. It was the transition from pagan Rome to Papal (vile person; aka the man of sin). Daniel 11:31 the Franks gave the Pope an army. It is why the French are called the eldest son of the (Roman) church, and the eldest daughter. The "many days" were the dark ages unto the Reformation (little help).

The "daily" was already removed a long time ago. See - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/The-Daily-Daily-With-No-Pictures.pdf

ReChoired · Dec 23, 2019

Keraz said:
...I reject all of your post #312, as being preterist and speculative nonsense.

Of course you do, and try to place "historicism" (which we teach) as Jesuit "preterism", while you believe Jesuit futurism. All you did was merely strawman-ed the Seventh-day Adventist position.

Oseas · Dec 23, 2019

Keraz said:
Daniel 7:24 The ten 'horns' represent the ten kings [Presidents] who will be appointed to rule the 'beast' kingdom. Soon after this, another powerful man will arise and he will take over 3 of the ten kingdoms.
We see in Daniel 11:21-31, how that one man will take over dictatorial control of all the world. Paralleled by Revelation 13:1-4 and Revelation 17:11-13

IN ACCORD REVELATION, THERE WILL BE TWO BEASTS REIGNING IN WHOLE EARTH IN THIS TIME OF APOCALYPSE
The FIRST Beast - the ancient Beast which did rise up out of the Sea.

We are living in the time of Apocalypse. Let us believe in JESUS. What JESUS revealed by His angel(Rev.1.v.1), the FIRST Beast did rise up out of the Sea(waters) as is written in Rev.17:v.3&9-10&15 combined with Rev.13:1-10, i.e. this ancient Beast did rise up out from the middle of the Gentile nations(waters), precisely in Italy-Rome-Vatican City, whose Beast has 7 heads and 10 horns (Rev.13:1-10). This is a Gentile Beast.
Identifying the 7 heads revealed by our Lord JESUS. In accord to our Lord, the seven heads are two things:
(1) 7 mountains
(2) and 7 kings (Rev.17:v.9-10).

Then, 7 heads signify two things: kings and mountains, right?
Our Lord says (Rev.1:1) that the 7 mountains and 7 kings are linked or connected to the FIRST ancient Beast Rev. 13:v.1 & 17:v.7).

IDENTIFYING THE 7 HEADS OF THE FIRST BEAST, WHICH ROSE UP OUT OF THE SEA - REVELATION 13:v.1-10
Many students and theologians think that 7 heads are the 7 hills of Vatican City, it is not correct, it is not true, because the power of the Beast of sea -that is the FIRST Beast - is not restricted to only the 7 hills of Rome, it has a much greater extent than the 7 hills of Rome. In fact, our Planet Earth is divided in 7 parts, or 7 continents, or yet 7 regions.

The 7 heads of the Beast (Rev.17:7&9&15), upon which rides the Great Whore, are not ONLY the 7 hills of Rome, absolutely, the 7 heads are Europe, Asia, Africa, Oceania, North America, South America and Central America; where is sat the woman, the Roman Catholic Church, which rides upon the Beast of sea, the Papacy, through a monstruous religious structures among the Gentile peoples, with headquater in the Vatican City,Rome-Italy.

IDENTIFYING THE 7 KINGS LINKED TO THE BEAST, WHICH ROSE UP OUT OF THE SEA - REVELATION 13:v.1-10
Knowing what are the 7 heads of the Beast, as showed above, let's go now to interpret and know who are the 7 kings.
The ancient Gentile Beast, upon which rides the Great Whore(Rev.17:v.3), since the beginning of its existence have elected 265 Popes. As all may know, each elected Pope used a specific nickname, like John XXIII, Francis I, Pio XII, and so on.
The 7 kings are a specific lineage of Popes nicknamed Paul. Paul I,II,III,IV,V,VI and VII. Paul VII is not yet come, and when he comes, he must continue a short space. He must be the last Pope. Things like this is hidding in profound mystery, my brothers. Who has ears,let him hears what the Spirit says to the churches.

IDENTIFYING THE 10 HORNS LINKED TO THE FIRST BEAST - THE ANCIENT RELIGIOUS BEAST LOCALIZED IN EUROPE, PRECISELY IN ROME
How to identify the 10 horns of the Beast which did rise up out of the Sea? The 10 horns are linked with ANOTHER Beast which manifested not yet before the mankind, this Beast is that that will come up out the earth (Rev.13:v.11-18), the Beast like a lamb, but speaks as a Dragon, a false lamb, a false messiah of the Jews, AN IMPOSTER, whose Beast is linked with the tribe of Dan, one of the 10 tribes of Israel, which rebelled against the house of David unto this Day - check it out in 1Kings 12:v.19.

JESUS is of the David's house, He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. Though JESUS be the true Messiah of the Jews, they refused JESUS until this day. This ANOTHER Beast, a Jewish Beast, has two horns like a lamb (a false lamb, a false messiah, an IMPOSTER), and he will speak as a Dragon (the red Dragon). He will exercise all the power of the FIRST Beast, the Gentile Beast THAT IS THE BEAST OF SEA, before him (before the Papacy), and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST ancient Beast, whose deadly wound was healed. He, the false messiah, AN IMPOSTER, will do great signs and wonders, so that he will make fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and will deceive them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he has power to do in the sight of the FIRST Beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the FIRST Beast, which has the wound by a Sword, and lives though mortally wounded. This second Beast has power to give life unto the image of the FIRST Beast, that the image of the Beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the Beast should be killed. This ANOTHER Beast will sit in the holy place (2Thes.2:v.3-4).

But remember: The Holy Place belongs to JESUS exclusively. With the manifestation of the second Beast, a false messiah, an imposter, very very soon, the Holy Place will be profaned, under the dominion of Satan (2Thes,2:9-12). Then will be established the satanic power of the Abomination of Desolation.
IN ACCORD REVELATION, THERE WILL BE TWO BEASTS REIGNING IN WHOLE EARTH IN THIS TIME OF APOCALYPSE-REVELATION 13:v.1-18
THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
Again: abomination: i.e. that which is abominable, odious, heinous, infamous, nefarious, hateful, filthy, atrocious, cruel, bestial, accursed
When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation in the holy place (Mat.24:15), i.e. enthroned in the temple of Jerusalém...
Get ready you all brothers in Christ
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
Well, with the establishment of the Universal Antichrist's Empire in very very near future,will also be established the abomination of desolation with the enthronization of a false messiah, a false Lamb, a false Christ, AN IMPOSTER, enthroned in the temple of Jerusalem, as is written in Revelation 13:11-12:
11 And I beheld ANOTHER Beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a Lamb (a false Lamb), and he spake as a Dragon (he is the Red Dragon).
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the FIRST Beast before him (the blasphemer FIRST Beast Rev.13:1-10, did rise up out of the sea, Sea=Gentile nations).
The Universal Empire of Antichrist will have two Headquarters, one in Rome and the other in Jerusalem. The great satanic power of the Abomination of Desolation will be felt more strong and violent from the beginning of the second period of 3yrs and half onwards, until the end of the period of 1.260 dias plus 30 days=1.290 days. Here is the last moments ot the end of the world.
Around two thousand years ago, The Apostle Peter prophesied: 2Pe.3:v.7&11-14
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto FIRE against the Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (This Day has arealdy arrived, that is the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium after Adam)
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED (AS THE TWO TOWERS OF THE WTC), what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Revelation 2:25-29
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Keraz · Dec 24, 2019

Oseas said:
IN ACCORD REVELATION, THERE WILL BE TWO BEASTS REIGNING IN WHOLE EARTH IN THIS TIME OF APOCALYPSE
The FIRST Beast - the ancient Beast which did rise up out of the Sea.

We are living in the time of Apocalypse.

Sure there will be the 'beast'; the Anti-Christ and the one who convinces the world to worship the first one. Revelation 13:11-18

In no way are we now in the Apocalypse. We will surely know about it as the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls happen.

ReChoired · Dec 24, 2019

Keraz said:
...In no way are we now in the Apocalypse. We will surely know about it as the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls happen.

6 Trumpets already took place, and the 7th, with the 7 in them, are about to. Type in Joshua 5-7.

Keraz · Dec 24, 2019

ReChoired said:
Of course you do, and try to place "historicism" (which we teach) as Jesuit "preterism", while you believe Jesuit futurism. All you did was merely strawman-ed the Seventh-day Adventist position.

What I believe is what the Prophetic Word actually says. If the Jesuits got some of it right, that's OK, as most of Satans lies have some truth in them.
What I refute is any past fulfilment, excepting for the obvious prophesies about Jesus' first Advent. And there are many partial, parallel fulfilments, which do not preclude a final; complete fulfilment still to happen in the future.

The way the SDA's treat Ellen White as a prophet and the after, 175 years, notion that anything happened in 1844, makes me and any serious Bible prophecy studier question all their beliefs about the Lord's plans for His people.

Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies

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