Your theology should make you less individualistic (video)

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speedyj1992

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I hope everyone here is trying to follow Jesus' great commands of loving God with everything we have and loving our neighbor as ourselves (Matthew 22:37-39). When we do this, we have no place for being individualistic in our own lives:

 

DNB

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I hope everyone here is trying to follow Jesus' great commands of loving God with everything we have and loving our neighbor as ourselves (Matthew 22:37-39). When we do this, we have no place for being individualistic in our own lives:

The world has absolutely nothing to offer, and man was created as a social creature, therefore, any ideology of individualism is all in vain. There will never be peace, joy and fulfillment under such an existence. True meaning to life only comes when we have something to offer someone else, in the most beneficial and inconsequential manner. No man is an island, and being selfishness and self-absorbed are actually pathetic traits. Only a weakling and a coward concerns himself only with himself, ...and then says 'it's your problem, not mine'.

Confident people make other people feel confident, tough and courageous people protect those around them, but only losers bring out the worst in others, refuse to help, and relish in other's misfortune.

Romans 12:10-18
12:10. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13. Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality. 14. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. 17. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
 
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speedyj1992

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I agree that these are some real problems - but the solution goes beyond what we can do and WHO we can turn to. And that's Jesus.
 

DNB

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I agree that these are some real problems - but the solution goes beyond what we can do and WHO we can turn to. And that's Jesus.
No, the solution is in ourselves, and we accomplish this by regarding Jesus' work, and praying for strength and love. It's up to us to desire it, and to execute it.
 

speedyj1992

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@DNB an you please prove this using Scripture? Because Philippians 2:13 contradicts that statement you made, as do Philippians 1:6, Isaiah 26:12, Hebrews 13:21, Pslam 90:17, and 1 Thessalonians 2:13.

Plus man is inherently sinful circa Romans 3:23, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Jeremiah 17:9, and 1 John 1:8, among others.

What are your thoughts? And again, please only use Scripture to show me where I am wrong and where you are right.
 

DNB

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@DNB an you please prove this using Scripture? Because Philippians 2:13 contradicts that statement you made, as do Philippians 1:6, Isaiah 26:12, Hebrews 13:21, Pslam 90:17, and 1 Thessalonians 2:13.

Plus man is inherently sinful circa Romans 3:23, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Jeremiah 17:9, and 1 John 1:8, among others.

What are your thoughts? And again, please only use Scripture to show me where I am wrong and where you are right.
Hi S1992, man is not inherently sinful. God created everything, and saw that it was good. Man never lost the image of God that he was created in, nor did he become corrupt by eating fruit from the tree of knowledge of good & evil.

1. Right after eating the fruit, God, in the immediate context said, '...they have become like us, knowing good & evil...' God is not corrupt.
2. After the birth of Seth, God claimed that man was still created in his image (Genesis 5:3).
3. After the flood, God pronounced capital crime for murder, because man is created in his image. (Gen 9:6)
4. Noah was found righteous in God's eyes, so was Abraham, so was Job, Moses was a friend of God, and David was a man after God's own heart.
5. There were about 20 Capital crimes in the Levitical Law, i.e. no one asks a depraved person to be good at the pain of death.
6. There were 613 Mosaic laws, ...who demands righteousness from incorrigible men?
7. Be holy as I am holy. Who requires this from inherently sinful people?
8. Abraham asked God to spare Sodom if he found any righteous people. God agreed, and spared Lot (Genesis 19:29).
9. No one can recognize sin in man, without being righteous to begin with. Only a righteous man will tell you how bad he is, just as a knowledgeable person will only tell you of how little that he knows, or how stupid that he is (you know what I mean?). Only depraved persons believe that they are good. eg: the adulteress that wipes her mouth claiming that she did no wrong (Proverbs 30:20).
10. The verses that you cited about man's wickedness, are generalizations, obviously. Even the atheists do good works, and those without the law, for these things are written in their hearts (Romans 2:14-15).
11. What state were Adam & Eve in before the fall? Why did they disobey God before even eating the fruit, were they created inherently corrupt (obviously not).
12. The reason that we're guilty before God, is because we are NOT inherently corrupt, and should know better, obviously.
13. The Bible is screaming from one end to the other, to be good and obey God. It never says, worth mentioning, to pray so God will make you good. But rather, it says in it's entirety, do what you know is right, and what is your duty. That is the whole tenor of scripture from start to finish, and this is why we have a conscience (to only some it has been seared, not all).
 
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Giuliano

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God's altars are to be built with stones unhewn by human hands. Stones are unique, but God made them that way. It is the "human" way to build altars out of bricks since bricks are easier to fit together.

Isaiah 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

Deuteronomy 27:5 And there shalt thou build an altar unto the Lord thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up any iron tool upon them.

Remember too how men sought to build a tower into Heaven using bricks.

11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

People were supposed to go out into the earth, subduing it. Each nation was given its area and intended to operate as a unique people. Instead they conspired to be uniform and despised the uniqueness of the individual.

The essence of bad government is to treat men as objects or slaves, denying the unique value of every person. Bad government seeks to erase the worth of the individual. Thus Pharaoh reduced Israel to slavery and had them make bricks.

Besides if we were all alike, how could we help one another? I like the fact that different saints have different gifts. We can do things for each other we can't do for ourselves. If we were all alike, what could we do for each other?
 

DNB

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God's altars are to be built with stones unhewn by human hands. Stones are unique, but God made them that way. It is the "human" way to build altars out of bricks since bricks are easier to fit together.

Isaiah 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

Deuteronomy 27:5 And there shalt thou build an altar unto the Lord thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up any iron tool upon them.

Remember too how men sought to build a tower into Heaven using bricks.

11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

People were supposed to go out into the earth, subduing it. Each nation was given its area and intended to operate as a unique people. Instead they conspired to be uniform and despised the uniqueness of the individual.

The essence of bad government is to treat men as objects or slaves, denying the unique value of every person. Bad government seeks to erase the worth of the individual. Thus Pharaoh reduced Israel to slavery and had them make bricks.

Besides if we were all alike, how could we help one another? I like the fact that different saints have different gifts. We can do things for each other we can't do for ourselves. If we were all alike, what could we do for each other?
Being unique, is a very different argument than existing on an individual level. Two completely different points. Two unique people can be altruistic to one another, this is encouraged. But a person who prefers to live individually, cares little for others. This is the protest, not having character, but having a selfish character.
 

Giuliano

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Being unique, is a very different argument than existing on an individual level. Two completely different points. Two unique people can be altruistic to one another, this is encouraged. But a person who prefers to live individually, cares little for others. This is the protest, not having character, but having a selfish character.
We all exist on an individual level even if we don't like it. God made us that way.

If the objection is about selfishness, why not talk about selfishness?
 

DNB

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We all exist on an individual level even if we don't like it. God made us that way.

If the objection is about selfishness, why not talk about selfishness?
I believe that that's the reference to individualism in the video, wasn't it? Paul was not Peter, nor was John, James, but they weren't individualistic in their concerns i.e. looking out for number one. They were individual in their characters, but not in their approach to others. Isn't that the point of the video?
 

Giuliano

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I believe that that's the reference to individualism in the video, wasn't it? Paul was not Peter, nor was John, James, but they weren't individualistic in their concerns i.e. looking out for number one. They were individual in their characters, but not in their approach to others. Isn't that the point of the video?
To be honest, I didn't watch the whole thing. What I saw did seem to be saying that; but it really could have been clearer. We need individuals with their own talents or gifts. People need to learn how to "fit together" so each person's uniqueness is best expressed.
 

DNB

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To be honest, I didn't watch the whole thing. What I saw did seem to be saying that; but it really could have been clearer. We need individuals with their own talents or gifts. People need to learn how to "fit together" so each person's uniqueness is best expressed.
Yes, very good point, ...as there are many parts, but only one body, and that the foot cannot say to the hand 'I do not need you', etc.. But, as far as the video goes, no man is an island either. And, one of my favorite expressions that I first heard Bono, from U2, say, 'I am, because we are'
 

Prayer Warrior

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I hope everyone here is trying to follow Jesus' great commands of loving God with everything we have and loving our neighbor as ourselves (Matthew 22:37-39). When we do this, we have no place for being individualistic in our own lives:

I can see where the guy in the video is going, but i believe we have to be careful how we handle this topic. Christians are the only people on earth who have the capacity to be all that God made us to be as individuals. And He made each of us completely unique. Even identical twins have unique personalties. So, we are all individuals fitting together as a body. We don't lose our uniqueness in order to fit together. In fact, I think it's dangerous for Christians to try to be clones, but I've seen this tendency in churches.

Communism tries to wipe out the uniqueness of the individual as God made us, and man becomes the "collective." This flies in the face of our vastly creative Creator who made every snowflake unique (not talking about snowflake people here, lol). Uniqueness is the hallmark of His creation.
 
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Giuliano

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Yes, very good point, ...as there are many parts, but only one body, and that the foot cannot say to the hand 'I do not need you', etc.. But, as far as the video goes, no man is an island either. And, one of my favorite expressions that I first heard Bono, from U2, say, 'I am, because we are'
That is a great quote from Bono. I hadn't heard it. It's true too. If you try to define yourself, you will find that how we do it always involving relationships with others. If you say, "I am Chinese," you're saying something about your cultural background or where you grew up. If you say, "I am a father," you have to have at least one child. "I am a auto mechanic" means you have to be around cars. "Pure beingness" would lie outside all relationships.

Taking a selfish approach to life can be, well, disastrous. You can ruin your relationships -- undermining how you wish to define self in relationship to others. It's counterproductive.
 

Giuliano

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I can see where the guy in the video was going, but i believe we have to be careful how we handle this topic. Christians are the only people on earth who have the capacity to be all that God made us to be as individuals. And He made each of us completely unique. Even identical twins have unique personalties. So, we are all individuals fitting together as a body. We don't lose our uniqueness in order to fit together. In fact, I think it's dangerous for Christians to try to be clones, but I've seen this tendency in churches.

Communism tries to wipe out the uniqueness of the individual as God made us, and man becomes the "collective." This flies in the face of our vastly creative Creator who made every snowflake unique (not talking about snowflake people here, lol). Uniqueness is the hallmark of His creation.
I tend to see a red light going off when I hear a religious leader not being very clear about the value of the individual since cult leaders can be effective at talking naive people into following them and saying it's sacrificing their uniqueness for the "good of the group" when it turns out it's for the benefit of the leader.
 
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DNB

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That is a great quote from Bono. I hadn't heard it. It's true too. If you try to define yourself, you will find that how we do it always involving relationships with others. If you say, "I am Chinese," you're saying something about your cultural background or where you grew up. If you say, "I am a father," you have to have at least one child. "I am a auto mechanic" means you have to be around cars. "Pure beingness" would lie outside all relationships.

Taking a selfish approach to life can be, well, disastrous. You can ruin your relationships -- undermining how you wish to define self in relationship to others. It's counterproductive.
Yes, very good point, ...for nor did God intend us to be non-social beings. For, if the 2nd greatest commandment is to 'love your brother, as you love yourself'. THis leaves very little room to consider yourself above others, that is, to regard your individuality over your communal essence, ...while still recognizing each's, God given, individual talents and characteristics. (same word, but two different meanings)
 
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speedyj1992

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As a general comment to those who did not actually watch the video but are assuming this is about surrendering individual identity - that is NOT what I mean. The video is about not being individualistic and selfish and making it all about oneself as a Christian. We are NOT called to do that as disciples of the living God, but we do get unique lives and ways to live out our holiness. Please watch an entire video before assuming you know what someone is saying - jumping to conclusions has never honored God.

As for @DNB - it's very tempting to provide Scripture for each point you made to show you where each of those 13 "points", but I'll just settle with this encouragement: read Scripture as a child without a lens. Seek to learn and not have an agenda or pre-conceived notion, try not to make assumptions, seek the counsel of those who have been walking with God longer, and PRAY. Ask God to reveal Himself to you and not to confirm what you currently believe.

I need to pray this periodically, too, and my prayer for you is that you really do understand God as He portrays Himself in His Word.
 

DNB

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As a general comment to those who did not actually watch the video but are assuming this is about surrendering individual identity - that is NOT what I mean. The video is about not being individualistic and selfish and making it all about oneself as a Christian. We are NOT called to do that as disciples of the living God, but we do get unique lives and ways to live out our holiness. Please watch an entire video before assuming you know what someone is saying - jumping to conclusions has never honored God.

As for @DNB - it's very tempting to provide Scripture for each point you made to show you where each of those 13 "points", but I'll just settle with this encouragement: read Scripture as a child without a lens. Seek to learn and not have an agenda or pre-conceived notion, try not to make assumptions, seek the counsel of those who have been walking with God longer, and PRAY. Ask God to reveal Himself to you and not to confirm what you currently believe.

I need to pray this periodically, too, and my prayer for you is that you really do understand God as He portrays Himself in His Word.
Sorry, shame on you, you asked me to provide scripture which I astutely did. And now you refuse to counter-act, or at least respond to, my arguments? Everything that you said to me, I could equally and justifiably say to you, ...you showed no insight or acumen that I should even take your advice seriously?
You are aware, right?