• Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,044
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
6 Trumpets already took place, and the 7th, with the 7 in them, are about to. Type in Joshua 5-7.
Beyond belief!
You are saying that the Trumpets as described in Revelation 8 & 9, have happened? What world do you live in?

The next event as is well prophesied; will be the Sixth Seal. None of the things there have happened yet. Revelation 6:12-17
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
...The way the SDA's treat Ellen White as a prophet and the after, 175 years, notion that anything happened in 1844, makes me and any serious Bible prophecy studier question all their beliefs about the Lord's plans for His people.
You will see, soon enough. I hope not too late, however.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
The 'space of half an hour' in very short deals with the little time of Trouble, and I can detail this for you from scripture and SoP/ToJ. Would you like to see my study on this?
Yes please. And also your thoughts on the three horns uprooted as per you comment re Heidi Heiks and his identification of them being the Vandals, Visigoths, and Ostrogoths.
I would also like you to clarify the concept of ten being the meaning of completion. I can see that idea certainly... The commandments... Ten curtains of the tabernacle... Etc etc those 'tens', albeit indicative of something that is completed, are still literal numbers... Are there any other examples of 10 prophetically where the actual reality is more or less than the number specified as your suggestion re the ten horns?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes please. And also your thoughts on the three horns uprooted as per you comment re Heidi Heiks and his identification of them being the Vandals, Visigoths, and Ostrogoths.
I would also like you to clarify the concept of ten being the meaning of completion. I can see that idea certainly... The commandments... Ten curtains of the tabernacle... Etc etc those 'tens', albeit indicative of something that is completed, are still literal numbers... Are there any other examples of 10 prophetically where the actual reality is more or less than the number specified as your suggestion re the ten horns?
Ok, let me see if I may address this a part at a time, so as not to mix any of it together. BTW, love ya brother! (Just was impressed to let ya' know) How are ya' doin'? Jesus is comin' soon, and cannot wait to meet all my brothers and sisters in person, and most especially Jesus. Gonna' be a great day, once everything is said an' done!

Ok. Let's look at "10" ("ten") in scripture. One of the first times we find "ten" as its own number, is in Genesis 18:32:

Gen_18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.​

In this we can see that 10 is the minimum number for the whole populace to live. Does that make sense?

Consider Zechariah 8:23 -

Zec_8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
Only "ten" numerically? Or is it something much more, a whole being represented?

There are the "ten" days of testing with Daniel, Daniel 1:12, while therein is the natural, it also represents the greater spiritual testing, which is much more than then natural "ten", but the whole.

Consider music, the instrument of "ten" strings (Psalms 92:3), while there was such an natural instrument with numerically "ten", it represents the whole law (even your voice is a wind and stringed instrument, to be in subjection and obedience to God, while God plucks the heart strings to speaks the gospel song, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh, etc).

In Psalms 91:7, we see the range go from 1 (thousand) to 10 (thousand), of which 1 was the tenth/tithe, and the 10 the whole fullness. The natural again, also pointing to greater spiritual things.

There are "ten" virgins in the parable of Matthew 25:1. The "ten" is symbolic, so while there are "ten" (numerically) virgins, it is merely symbol, or code, for something far greater, namely the whole of the Seventh-day Adventist movement (and no others).

There are "ten" lepers (Luke 17:12,17) as a natural example that Jesus points to in matters of sin and forgiveness. In this there are naturally and actually "ten" as a numerical number, but they represent, when considered in the spiritual, the whole of the human race, with a remnant, a 1/10th being thankfully saved. The whole of the first fruit unto God.

Then there is the "ten servants", the "ten" pounds/talents (minas, coins; Matthew 25:28), the "ten" cities (Luke 19:13,16-17,24-25), the "ten" pieces of silver (Luke 15:8), and so on. There is even the "ten" tribes (Matthew 20:24; Mark 10:41) that fought against the "two", re-enacted in the lives of the disciples with Jesus.

There is the "ten" (thousand) talents owed (Matthew 18:24).

Yes, there are real numbers, but those numbers, represent also spiritual, or greater things, or wholes (such as 7 (completeness/finished) in Genesis, or 4 (all time, matter and space), etc). First the natural, then the spiritual. In visions, such as Daniel 2 or 7, where the number "ten" is used (for "horns", or implied, such as toes) it is given in a symbolic dream/vision, yes? While the "ten" was specifically seen, as a number in the dream or vision, the explanation of that number is something else, usually greater. For instance, the 4 horns of Daniel 8 on the He-Goat, are not merely Seleucus/Antiochus, Ptolemy, Cassander and Lysimachus as persons, but their entire dynasties, their lineage of rulership after them. So while there are 4 horns in visions, there are many more kings of Greecia than those four, while in four divisions; does that make sense?

There are many more "ten" in the Bible, and a few harder ones to find, like Abraham and the ten nations, but one has to count them individually, as it doesn't enumerate them outright. Yet here again, a natural number and event point to far greater things.

Even the "ten" commandments are merely summation of the "whole" law which is "exceeding broad". In other words a synecdoche.

So, when looking at Daniel 2, 7 or Revelation 12, 13 & 17, and dealing with the number "ten" in vision, the answer is "Yes, there are numerically 10 in the vision, but they are merely symbol or even synecdoche for the greater whole when explanation is given afterwards".

For instance, in Revelation 17, we are given several things, starting with vs 1-2. A woman fornication with all the "kings of the earth", and then in later verses were are given another perspective, of a woman riding a beast (state power) with ten horns. It is the same thing, spoken of from differing labels. Jesus does this all the time. Sometimes using sheep, other times fish, other times wheat, etc. Yet it is the same thing, and so the "kings of the earth" are represented by the "ten" in the symbol of the vision. Vs 17-18 also give this again, restating "ten horns" and "kings of the earth" in parallel fashion. The woman reigns over them, but then we see this reversed in their destroying her.

So in final, Yes "ten" are literally naturally present, but we are dealing with dreams and visions in Daniel 2 & 7 and Revelation 12, 13 & 17. The number in the vision is actual, but the explanation of the "ten" is greater. Does that make sense?
 
  • Like
Reactions: brakelite

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes please. [7th Seal] ...
This will take several posts to go through. I will try to post them together. If you have any questions about what is posted please ask. I love to study and always consider input from others, even objections. :) I do not desire to be in error, and therefore humbly lay these things before my brethren for consideration in full council with God in prayer and study of His word, law and testimony.
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes please. [7th Seal]
The 7 Churches, 7 Seals and 7 Trumpets all basically parallel in history, and this is shown in its structure here - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-co...-Revelation-compared-7-Branch-Candlestick.pdf

The 7th Seal:

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.​

silence in heaven: (connect to:

[1] “voices” before “silence” “in heaven”; the heavenly ministry ongoing; Revelation 4:1,5, 8:13, 10:3-4, 12:10 (AD 31; Romans 5:6), 14:6-12 (three angels messages, “saying with a loud voice & 4th), 18:1,

Temple Open in Heaven for Ministry (Everlasting Gospel still going forward): Revelation 8:3-4, 14:6-12

Temple Open in Heaven to send forth the 7 Last Plagues: Revelation 15:5, 16:1,5-7​
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes please. [7th Seal]
The 7 Churches, 7 Seals and 7 Trumpets all basically parallel in history, and this is shown in its structure here - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-co...-Revelation-compared-7-Branch-Candlestick.pdf

The 7th Seal:

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

[2] “silence” “in heaven”
; the heavenly ministry ceases, smoke fills the Temple, no man allowed to enter, probation closed (Mystery of God, Finished)
, Revelation 8:1,5, 10:7, 15:8

Spirit of Prophecy/Testimony of Jesus (Daniel 12:1; Luke 13:25; Revelation 22:11) Typology:

“... It was Satan that prompted the world's rejection of Christ. The prince of evil exerted all his power and cunning to destroy Jesus; for he saw that the Saviour's mercy and love, His compassion and pitying tenderness, were representing to the world the character of God. Satan contested every claim put forth by the Son of God and employed men as his agents to fill the Saviour's life with suffering and sorrow. The sophistry and falsehood by which he had sought to hinder the work of Jesus, the hatred manifested through the children of disobedience, his cruel accusations against Him whose life was one of unexampled goodness, all sprang from deep-seated revenge. The pent-up fires of envy and malice, hatred and revenge, burst forth on Calvary against the Son of God, while all heaven gazed upon the scene in silent horror. {GC 501.2} ...” - The Great Controversy (1911), page 501.2

Anti-type:


"At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1. {GC 613.1}

When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people and [614] blotted out their sins. The number of His subjects is made up; "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven," is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords. {GC 613.2}

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. - The Great Controversy (1911), page 613.1-613.2
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes please. [7th Seal]
The 7 Churches, 7 Seals and 7 Trumpets all basically parallel in history, and this is shown in its structure here - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-co...-Revelation-compared-7-Branch-Candlestick.pdf

The 7th Seal:

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.​

Other interesting connections (Jacob's Trouble (read these events, after he leaves Laban, meets the angel messengers, fearing for his life from brethren first portion of time of trouble, then the internal struggle and with God, the final Angel messenger; then compare to , Gethsemane, Calvary and three and fourth angels messages (too much to go into here)), another Typology:

“... Having made the decision, He fell dying to the ground from which He had partially risen. Where now were His disciples, to place their hands tenderly beneath the head of their fainting Master, and bathe that brow, marred indeed more than the sons of men? The Saviour trod the wine press alone, and of the people there was none with Him. {DA 693.1}

But God suffered with His Son. Angels beheld the Saviour's agony. They saw their Lord enclosed by legions of satanic forces, His nature weighed down with a shuddering, mysterious dread. There was silence in heaven. No harp was touched. Could mortals have viewed the amazement of the angelic host as in silent grief they watched the Father separating His beams of light, love, and glory from His beloved Son, they would better understand how offensive in His sight is sin. {DA 693.2}

The worlds unfallen and the heavenly angels had watched with intense interest as the conflict drew to its close. Satan and his confederacy of evil, the legions of apostasy, watched intently this great crisis in the work of redemption. The powers of good and evil waited to see what answer would come to Christ's thrice-repeated prayer. Angels had longed to bring relief to the divine sufferer, but this might not be. No way of escape was found for the Son of God. In this awful crisis, when everything was at stake, when the mysterious cup trembled in the hand of the sufferer, the heavens opened, a light shone forth amid the stormy darkness of the crisis hour, and the mighty angel who stands in God's presence, occupying the position from which Satan fell, came to the side of Christ. The angel came not to take the cup from Christ's hand, but to strengthen Him to drink it, with the assurance of the Father's love. He came to give power to the divine-human suppliant. He pointed Him to the open heavens, telling Him of the souls that would be saved as the result of His sufferings. He assured Him that His Father is greater and more powerful than Satan, that His death would result in the utter discomfiture of Satan, and that the kingdom of this world would be given to the saints of the Most High. He told Him that He [694] would see of the travail of His soul, and be satisfied, for He would see a multitude of the human race saved, eternally saved. {DA 693.3} …” - The Desire of Ages (1898), pages 693.1 - 693.3

“... The enemies of Jesus vented their rage upon Him as He hung upon the cross. Priests, rulers, and scribes joined with the mob in mocking the dying Saviour. At the baptism and at the transfiguration the voice of God had been heard proclaiming Christ as His Son. Again, just before Christ's betrayal, the Father had spoken, witnessing to His divinity. But now the voice from heaven was silent. No testimony in Christ's favor was heard. Alone He suffered abuse and mockery from wicked men. {DA 746.3} ...” - The Desire of Ages (1898), page 746.3

“... Behold the Son of God suffering on the cross for three terrible hours of agony, enduring the penalty of transgression, in order that repentant, believing ones might have eternal life. And in the darkest hour, when the Saviour was enduring the greatest suffering that Satan could bring to torture his humanity, the Father hid from his Son his face of pity, comfort, and love. Twice, at the baptism and at the transfiguration, the voice of God had been heard proclaiming Christ as his Son. The third time, just before the betrayal, the Father had spoken, witnessing to his Son. But now the voice from heaven was silent. No testimony in the Saviour's favor was heard. Alone he suffered abuse and mockery. {YI, June 14, 1900 par. 3} ...” - Youth's Instructor, June 14, 1900, Par. 3

“... The Son of God bore the contradiction of sinners against himself. Behold his agony in the garden of Gethsemane. Hear his thrice-repeated prayer, "If it be possible, let this cup pass from me." Sweating great drops of blood in his human agony, he added, "Nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt." Has God, then, no knowledge of his suffering creatures? Behold the Saviour betrayed, mocked, derided in the judgment hall. Who was this?--The Prince of Life, the holy and beloved of God. Faint and weary after his long, agonizing struggle in the garden of Gethsemane, he was dragged from one tribunal to another, testified against by false witnesses, given up to the malice of the Jews by Pilate, who pronounced him blameless, scourged with cruel whips, spit upon, mocked at, fainting under the burden of the cross, and then lifted upon the cross, reproached in his dying agonies, the rude soldiers quarreling over his few garments, the reward for their part in the shameful work, priests and rulers in triumph wagging their heads and taunting him, "He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him." {RH, September 1, 1891 par. 4}

How could heaven keep silent? Can we wonder at the horrible unnatural darkness that hung over the cross? Can we wonder at the rending rocks, the rolling thunder, the flashing lightning, the shaking of the earth beneath the tread of the heavenly army as they beheld their loved Commander suffering such indignity? The crown of thorns he wore, the curse of the cross he suffered,-- who could have imagined that he, the Son of the infinite God, the Majesty of heaven, the King of glory, would bow his righteous soul to such a sacrifice! For sinners, for sinners, he died. Wonder, O heavens, and be astonished, O earth! The Son of God has died on the shameful cross, that the world might not perish; he died to bring life, everlasting life, to all who shall believe. {RH, September 1, 1891 par. 5} ...” - The Review and Herald, September 1, 1891, Par. 4 - 5
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes please. [7th Seal]
The 7 Churches, 7 Seals and 7 Trumpets all basically parallel in history, and this is shown in its structure here - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-co...-Revelation-compared-7-Branch-Candlestick.pdf

The 7th Seal:

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

The Final Events Typified
, unto the surrounding of the saints with Light, unto the Great Earthquake, the tombs opening, great confusion in the world, terror of the wicked, and victory, the veil between Heaven and Earth torn asunder (sky ripped open, Heaven departed as a scroll, Revelation 6:14) and the saints clothed with light of God's covenant rainbow, encircling them.


The Great Lisbon Earthquake (Revelation 6:12) (AD 1755, November 1) literally shook the world, and within the timeframe spoken of by prophecy of the 1,260 day/years (Daniel & Revelation) which terminated in A.D. 1798. This earthquake (anti-type) follows the first earthquake in Jesus' death (Matthew 27:51-54), with following events in between (now repeating globally), to be ended with the appearing of Jesus (Revelation 16:18), just as the second earthquake in Jesus' day in His resurrection (Matthew 28:2). Thus the pattern (type to anti-type):

Earthquake
Silence in Heaven
Events, such as Temple Service cease, etc
Disciples go through period of trouble in that they appear to be forsaken of Heaven
Earthquake
Angels appear with Jesus and return to Heaven with trophies of the specially resurrected

Much more detail may be given, but rest assured, Ecclesiastes 1:9, 3:15, etc are true to every word.​

“... Suddenly the gloom lifted from the cross, and in clear, trumpetlike tones, that seemed to resound throughout creation, Jesus cried, "It is finished." "Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit." A light encircled the cross, and the face of the Saviour shone with a glory like the sun. He then bowed His head upon His breast, and died. {DA 756.2}

Never before had the earth witnessed such a scene. The multitude stood paralyzed, and with bated breath gazed upon the Saviour. Again darkness settled upon the earth, and a hoarse rumbling, like heavy thunder, was heard. There was a violent earthquake. The people were shaken together in heaps. The wildest confusion and consternation ensued. In the surrounding mountains, rocks were rent asunder, and went crashing down into the plains. Sepulchers were broken open, and the dead were cast out of their tombs. Creation seemed to be shivering to atoms. Priests, rulers, soldiers, executioners, and people, mute with terror, lay prostrate upon the ground. {DA 756.4}

When the loud cry, "It is finished," came from the lips of Christ, the priests were officiating in the temple. It was the hour of the evening sacrifice. The lamb representing Christ had been brought to be slain. Clothed in his significant and beautiful dress, the priest stood with lifted knife, as did Abraham when he was about to slay his son. With intense interest the people were looking on. But the earth trembles and quakes; [757] for the Lord Himself draws near. With a rending noise the inner veil of the temple is torn from top to bottom by an unseen hand, throwing open to the gaze of the multitude a place once filled with the presence of God. In this place the Shekinah had dwelt. Here God had manifested His glory above the mercy seat. No one but the high priest ever lifted the veil separating this apartment from the rest of the temple. He entered in once a year to make an atonement for the sins of the people. But lo, this veil is rent in twain. The most holy place of the earthly sanctuary is no longer sacred. {DA 756.5}

All is terror and confusion. The priest is about to slay the victim; but the knife drops from his nerveless hand, and the lamb escapes. Type has met antitype in the death of God's Son. The great sacrifice has been made. The way into the holiest is laid open. A new and living way is prepared for all. No longer need sinful, sorrowing humanity await the coming of the high priest. Henceforth the Saviour was to officiate as priest and advocate in the heaven of heavens. It was as if a living voice had spoken to the worshipers: There is now an end to all sacrifices and offerings for sin. The Son of God is come according to His word, "Lo, I come (in the volume of the Book it is written of Me,) to do Thy will, O God." "By His own blood" He entereth "in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Hebrews 10:7; 9:12. {DA 757.1} ...” - The Desire of Ages (1898), page 756.2 – 757.1
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes please. [7th Seal]
The 7 Churches, 7 Seals and 7 Trumpets all basically parallel in history, and this is shown in its structure here - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-co...-Revelation-compared-7-Branch-Candlestick.pdf

The 7th Seal:

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.​

[3] “voices” after “silence” “in heaven”; Kingdom Come; Revelation 8:5, 11:15,19, 16:18, 19:1

Temple Opened in Heaven again, out comes Jesus, Victorious for His people: Revelation 11:19​

Psalms 50:3 KJB - Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.​

(This means that God had kept a time of silence in heaven, between speakings/voices.)

The many voices:

[A.] The Father speaks: (Before) Revelation 10:4,8, 11:12, (After/At) Jeremiah 25:30; Joel 2:11, Amos 1:2; Job 40:9; Psalms 18:13, 77:18, 104:7; 1 Samuel 2:10; 2 Samuel 22:14; (the Father speaks forth the Day and Hour) Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32; Acts 1:7 (see also connecting, John 12:28-30; 2 Peter 1:17-18); Revelation 14:2, (After) 16:17-18

Spirit of Prophecy/Testimony of Jesus:

"... The voice of God is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus’ coming, and delivering the everlasting covenant to His people. Like peals of loudest thunder His words roll through the earth. The Israel of God stand listening, with their eyes fixed upward. Their countenances are lighted up with His glory, and shine as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked cannot look upon them. And when the blessing is pronounced on those who have honored God by keeping His Sabbath holy, there is a mighty shout of victory. ..." - The Great Controversy (1911), page 640.2

[B.] The Son, Jesus Christ, speaks: (Before) Revelation 1:8,11-12,17-20, 2:1-29, 3:1-22, 6:6,11, (Ministering) 8:3-4, (ceasing to Minister) 8:5, (Before) 9:13-15,16, 10:3,6,7,9,11, 11:1-3, 16:15, 18:4,20 ((After) see also Psalms 50:3-4)

[C.] The Holy Ghost speaks: (Before) Revelation 2:7,11,17,29, 3:6,13,22, 14:13

[D.] The 24 Elders (rulers of unfallen worlds, the Heavenly General Council) speaks: (Before) Revelation 4:10-11, 5:5,8-10 (on behalf of Saints), (After) 7:11-12, (Before, speaking of events to come) 7:13-17, (Before) 11:16-18

[E.] The 4 Living Beasts (all the unfallen worlds) speak: (Before) Revelation 4:8, 5:8-10 (on behalf of Saints), 6:1,3,5,7, (After) 7:11-12

[F.] Heavenly Angels speaking: (Before) Revelation 5:2,11-12, 7:2-8, (After; 7:2-3 (see also Ezekiel 9:2-11)) 7:11-12; (Before) 8:7,8,10,12,13, 9:1,4,13, 10:7, 14:6-12,15,17, 16:5-7, 17:1,7-18, 18:1-3,21

[F1.] First of the 3 Angels: (Before) Revelation 14:6-7
[F2.] Second of the 3 Angels: (Before) Revelation 14:8
[F3.] Third of the 3 Angels: (Before) Revelation 14:9-12
[F4.] The Fourth Angel (Holy Ghost), empowering the 3 Angels: (Before) Revelation 18:1-3​

[G.] Heavenly Populace speaks: (Before) Revelation 5:13, 12:12, 18:20

[H.] Heavenly Voices speak: (Before) Revelation 4:1,5, 11:15, (After, Temple in Heaven opened Again) 11:19, (Before, AD 31; Romans 5:6) 12:10-12, (After) 14:2-5,13, (Before) 16:1, (After) 16:17,18

[I.] Heavenly Saints speak: (After) Revelation 7:9-10, (Before, on earth) 11:13, (After) 15:2-4

[J.] (on earth) Martyrs Blood crying out from the ground: (Before, on earth) Revelation 6:10

[K.] (on earth) wicked men crying out: (After, on earth) Revelation 6:16-17

[L.] (on earth) wicked speaking out of their mouths: (Before, on earth) Revelation 9:17-19, 11:10, 13:4, 16:9,11,13, (After, on earth) 16:21, (Before, on earth) 18:16-19,22,23

[L1.] (on earth) out of the mouth of the Dragon: (Before, on earth) Revelation 16:13
[L2.] (on earth) out of the mouth of the Beast: (Before, on earth) Revelation 16:13
[L3.] (on earth) out of the false prophet: (Before, on earth) Revelation 16:13​

[M.] (on earth) the (wicked) first (Sea) Beast of Revelation 13: (Before, on earth) Revelation 13:5-6

[N.] (on earth) the (wicked) second (Earth) Beast of Revelation 13: (Before, on earth) Revelation 13:11,14; (image of the first Beast) 13:15

[O.] (in Heaven by vision) John speaking: (John's speaking is all Before, though some of the events portrayed in vision are at varied times) (crying) Revelation 5:4, (responding to question from one of the 24 Elders) 7:14, (asking for the open book in Jesus' hand, to prophesy again in earth) 10:9,11

[P.] (on earth) Two Witness Prophesying: (Before, on earth; 1,260 years, AD 538-1798) Revelation 11:5-7

[Q.] (in Heaven, symbolically, on earth physically) The Woman (Church): (crying in childbirth) Revelation 12:2​
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes please. [7th Seal]
The 7 Churches, 7 Seals and 7 Trumpets all basically parallel in history, and this is shown in its structure here - http://sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-co...-Revelation-compared-7-Branch-Candlestick.pdf

The 7th Seal:

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.​

about: (meaning) almost, not quite, not exactly, circa, generally, rounded, approximately: Mark 5:13, 8:9; Luke 2:37, 8:42; John 1:39, 6:19; Acts 1:15, 5:7, 13:18,20, 19:34; Revelation 8:1, 16:21

the space of half an hour: (connect to Revelation 3:10, 17:12, “one hour”, thus about midway through the final “hour”; the last time of Jacob's trouble, the Angel is silent, but still wrestles with us)

this “half an hour” is approximately ½ of the “one hour” (or set time) of Revelation 3:10, 17:12 (which is also not, see following), the midst of the time of final trial, and is:

[A.] not standard time (½ of 1/24 in a standard day (Genesis 1), 30 natural minutes),

[B.] not day for a year principle (therefore not 7-8 days, 1 hour about 15 days in a year; 360 days divided by 12 months divided by 2 (24 “hours” making up the full year) and divided by 2 again; and therefore ½ hour would be half of a half of month, or 7.5 (7 ½) of 30 days, thus “about half an hour” would be approximately 7-8 days of a 360 day (lunar/prophetic) year),

[C.] not a day with the LORD time (a day with the LORD is 1,000 years (such as the Day of the LORD, the final day, the 7th Day of the Cosmic Week - 7,000 years), Psalms 90:4; 2 Peter 3:8; which would be 1000 divided by 24, which is 41.6667~ (41 2/3) for 1 hour, and thus divided by 2, for ½ hour of 1,000 years would be 20.8333~ years)

[D.] not a watch in the night time (Psalms 90:4; 1000 years is 1 watch, there are 4 watches in the night & also in the day (8 watches total), a single watch is thus 3 hours (8 watches multiplied by 3 hours each = 24 hours in 8,000 years, which is 333.3333~ (333 1/3) days for 1 hour, and thus divided by 2, for ½ hour of 8,000 years would be 166.6667~ (166 2/3) years)

[E.] not anti-typical feast time (see Leviticus 23).​

We can know by the context that the “about the space of half an hour” (Revelation 8:1) and the “hour” (Daniel 3:5,6,7,8,15 (“time”, “same hour”, “time”, “time”, “time”); Luke 22:53 (“hour, and the power of darkness”); Revelation 3:10, 17:12) are not those things, just as the “hour” came in spiritual Egypt/Sodom for the great “earthquake” (Revelation 11:13); and also the “hour” of God's Judgment being come (Revelation 14:7), and the “an hour” of the “a day, and a month, and a year” are pointing to specific moments in prophetic time (such as the end of the 2,300 day/years; AD 1843/44), and yet the “hour” of God's Judgment has been ongoing for the last 170 years.

The word “half an hour” (G2256), while it can mean one half of one hour (G5610) of a natural day, it also generally means: half of a time, a moment, an epoch, an era, a season.

In this (contextual) instance it would be from about the time of the closing of the temple in Heaven, the cessation of the voices of the 3 Angels (and 4th), the finishing of the ministration of the Everlasting Gospel, the wrestling of the Saints in prayer (Heaven is at this time of trouble” (Psalms 9:9, 10:1, 27:5, 37:39, 41:1; Isaiah 33:2; Jeremiah 14:8, 30:7; Daniel 12:1) silent, the Saints apparently being “left alone”) in the final time of Jacob's trouble (Genesis 32:24,26,31; 2 Peter 1:19), until the time that God the Father speaks forth the Day and Hour:

(G2256): ἡμιώριον; hēmiōrion

Total KJB Occurrences: 2

half, 1

Revelation 8:1​

hour, 1

Revelation 8:1 (2)​

(G5610): ὥρα; hōra

Total KJB Occurrences: 109

hour, 87

Matthew 8:12-13 (2), 9:22, 10:19, 15:28, 17:18, 20:3,5-6 (2),9,12, 24:36,42,44,50, 25:13, 26:40,45,55, 27:45-46 (3); Mark 13:11,32, 14:35, Mar_14:37,41, 15:25,33-34 (3); Luke 10:21 (2), 12:12,39-40 (2),46, 20:19, 22:14,53,59, 23:44 (2), 24:33; John 1:39, 2:4, 4:6,21,23,52-53 (3), 5:25,28, 7:30, 8:20, 12:23,27 (2), 13:1, 16:21,32, 17:1, 19:14,27; Acts 2:15, 3:1 (2), 10:3,9,30 (2), 16:18,33, 22:13, 23:23; 1 Corinthians 4:11, 15:30; Galatians 2:5; Revelation 3:3,10, 9:15, 11:13, 14:7, 17:12, 18:10,17,19​

time, 12

Matthew 14:15, 18:1; Mark 6:35; Luke 1:10, 14:17; John 16:2,4, 16:25; Romans 13:11; 1 John 2:18 (2); Revelation 14:15​

hours, 3

John 11:9; Acts 5:7, 19:34​

season, 3

John 5:34-35 (2); 2 Corinthians 7:8; Philemon 1:15​

day, 1

Mark 6:35​

eventide, 1

Mark 11:11​

instant, 1

Luke 2:38​

short, 1

1 Thessalonians 2:17​
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
... And also your thoughts on the three horns uprooted as per you comment re Heidi Heiks and his identification of them being the Vandals, Visigoths, and Ostrogoths. ...
I will try to get to this next. It will take some time to type out the points in brief.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,044
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
The Seventh Seal

Revelation 8:1 When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about a half hour.

We are clearly told that the ‘about a half hour’, is in heaven. Time in heaven is not and cannot be the same as earthly time, heaven doesn’t rotate or orbit the sun. God is eternal, His ways are not our ways.
Anyway, the Bible informs us twice that one day in heaven is like [as] 1000 years on earth. Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8
Genesis speaks of ‘6 days’ of creation, it seems more logical that they were actually 1000 year periods, or allegorically pointing to God’s 7000 year Plan for the earth.

It had been assumed that the ‘half hour’ starts soon after the Sixth Seal and finishes at the commencement of the Trumpet and Bowl punishments of the Great Tribulation. That is: 3½ years before the Return. But the Sixth Seal commences the Wrath of God and the Lamb, Rev. 6:17, then we see it isn’t until the completion of the Great Tribulation, that the Wrath of God is finished. Revelation 15:1

The calculation of 1000 divided by 48 gives us a heavenly half-hour of about 20 earth years. But that is only the centre of a range of years possible because it is "about" a half-hour.

Calculating the range of years is based upon statistical rules: Since the text tells us a half-hour, we examine the next divisible time period which is a quarter-hour. We simply find the distance between 30 minutes and 15 minutes (above and below) and find the half-way points. This gives us +/-5 centred on 20 years. Therefore the range is from 15 years to 25 years. If the actual year is outside of this range, then the Revelation account would have read "about a quarter of an hour” or “about three-quarters of an hour." But, Revelation says "about a half-hour." Thus we know it can't be outside the range of 15 to 25 years (including anything in between) otherwise "about an half-hour" would be wrong .

Therefore if, as seems likely, if the Sixth Seal – the great and terrible Day of the Lord, happens very soon – perhaps on the Day of Trumpets, it will then be 15-25 years until Jesus Returns.
So that will be the period of ‘silence in heaven’ but of tumult and huge changes on earth!

A lot must happen during that time – the regeneration of the Land, many prophesies about that – the Lord will send rain. Then the gathering, and settling of His people, again many prophecies – houses rebuilt, land productive... The selection of the 144,000, The Gog Magog attack and 7 years clean up. The treaty with the Anti-Christ, the AoD in the new Temple and 3½ years of the Great Tribulation. Then the glorious Return.

It all fits and I see the Hand of God in it.
 
Last edited:

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
... also your thoughts on the three horns uprooted as per you comment re Heidi Heiks and his identification of them being the Vandals, Visigoths, and Ostrogoths. ...
Ok, some historical citations:

"... That prophecy [1,290 context] of Daniel also terminated in [AD] 1798. In A.D. 508, with Clovis, the union of church and state was "set up"' the marriage was consumated. In [AD] 1798 the union of church and state was torn down; the marriage was annulled -- exactly 1290 years later. The Liber Pontificalis, which is the earliest historical text of the papacy, adds this little gem of history to our understanding:

"At that time there came a golden crown, (a diadem) set with precious stones, from the king of the Franks, Cloduveus, for a gift to blessed Peter, the apostle."113 (113. Louise Ropes Loomis, The Book of the Popes (Liber Pontificalis) (New York: Columbia University Pres, 1916), 130-1.)​

The footnote in Liber Pontificalis serves to clarify the just-quoted text:

"Clovis died in [AD] 511, three years before the accession of [pope] Hormisdas. It is possible, however, that there had been a delay in the transportation of his votive crown to Rome."114 (114. ibid. 131)​

Pope Hormisdas ([AD] 514-523) received this golden crown at the beginning of his reign in [AD] 514. However, the recognized source of the golden crown for the pope is Clovis. The making and transportation of such a crown would require time, being no minor undertaking. Although Clovis died unexpectedly in [AD] 511 at the age of forty-five, it would be only logical that he had intended the crown for his fellow political partner Pope Symmachus, whose reign was from [AD] 498-514. The irony of it all is this: In [AD] 508 it was the French who gave the golden crown to the pope, literally, although somewhat delayed, and in [AD] 1798 it was the French again that took back the golden crown, literally, as well. ..." - [AD] 508, 538, 1798, 1843 Source Book (Preliminary), by Heidi Heiks, page 78 [square [ ] bracketed words added by myself]

This is confirmed by Catholicism itself:


"... Since Clovis was the first of the Germanic princes to accept Catholicism, he and his successors were called were called “Oldest Son” (and France herself, “Oldest Daughter”) of the Church ..." - Oldest Daughter of the Church

"... For this expedition for Berthier's entry into Rome and the proclamation of the Roman Republic (10-15 February, 1798), and for the captivity of Pius VI, who was carried off a prisoner to Valence, see PIUS VI. ..." - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Napoleon Bonaparte

"... In an attempt to revolutionize Rome the French General Duphot was shot and killed, whereupon the French took Rome on 10 Feb., 1798, and proclaimed the Roman Republic on 15 Feb. ..." - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Pope Pius VI

Now to the matter of the "three" "uprooted" or "fell":

"... There are some things which the passage [Daniel 7:24-26] does not teach. For instance, it does not say that the Little Horn is to have the mastery over the ten horns (or even seven of them) for the entire 3 1/2 times. This is not even suggested. Secondly, neither this passage nor its context gives the plucking up of the three horns as necessary before the 3 1/2 times can begin. It is true that verse 8 [page 34-35] says that "before him three of the first horns were plucked up," but this "before" is translated from the Aramaic qodam, which means place, and not time.41 ...

... [page 36] When Mervyn C. Maxwell stated the following in his footnote he was absolutely correct:

"It must be concluded, therefore, that the reference to the three horns' being plucked up before the little horn gives no indication as to the timing of the 1260 days, and that any discussion based upon the supposition that it does, is without value."43 ..." - AD 538 Source Book, by Heidi Heiks, pages 34-36, selected portions [square [ ] bracketed words added by myself, underlined words in original].
Continuing the same material:
"However, the scriptures definitely affirm an uprooting or removal of three separate and distinct kingly powers or kingdoms in the life or in the presence of the papacy after A.D. 476. In an extremely significant letter, Pope Hormisdas writes to Justinian in February of [AD] 519. Amazing as it seems, the papacy singles herself out as the pope identifies the Catholic Church as the true source in rooting out her enemies, working from behind the scenes, fulfilling scripture.

Daniel 7:8 "I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: ..."​

A portion of the pope's letter to Justinian reads: [page 40-41]

"The way to unity of the church is clear, the prescriptions for it are known; the priests who love the Catholic peace must not reject the Catholic confession. For it is necessary that the falsehood not be just partly improved but torn out by the root ... Therefore go forth as you have begun ... Your sentiments as they appear in your writings to us are of the kind such that not much exhortation is required for the execution of your good intentions."52 ..." - AD 538 Source Book, by Heidi Heiks, pages 40-41, selected portions [square [ ] bracketed words added by myself, underlined words in original].
More on the three horns in said material:

"... While all [Seventh-day Adventists, in context] are agreed that the Vandals and the Ostrogoths are unquestionably two of the three kingdoms involved, it is the debate of the Heruli versus the Visigoths that has caused division among us. ..." - AD 538 Source Book, by Heidi Heiks, page 42 [square [ ] bracketed words added by myself].
I will continue from this point in further posts from the same material.
 
Last edited:
B

brakelite

Guest
@ReChoired bro, appreciate everything you have presented so far. I will be offline for a week or so but have copy pasted all you have so far given, I have as well those pdfs you provided on different subjects earlier so I am wrapped to have some meat to chew on over the rest of the holidays.
I've been an adventist 22 years, and I still get excited over the beauty and precision of historicism, and our peculiar God revealed perspective of where we are in God's time line... The types and anti types of the sanctuary... The inspiration of the SOP. THANKS BRO... Very much appreciated.
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@ReChoired bro, appreciate everything you have presented so far. I will be offline for a week or so but have copy pasted all you have so far given, I have as well those pdfs you provided on different subjects earlier so I am wrapped to have some meat to chew on over the rest of the holidays.
I've been an adventist 22 years, and I still get excited over the beauty and precision of historicism, and our peculiar God revealed perspective of where we are in God's time line... The types and anti types of the sanctuary... The inspiration of the SOP. THANKS BRO... Very much appreciated.
You are welcome brother brakelite. I will wait for you to return to continue on the subject. When you are back let me know. :)
 

Oseas

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2019
1,280
160
63
87
Joinville
Faith
Christian
Country
Brazil
Sure there will be the 'beast'; the Anti-Christ and the one who convinces the world to worship the first one. Revelation 13:11-18

If we analyze deeply what you just wrote, and if we take Scriptures to help us to see the strategy of Satan to mantain the "modus operandi" of his powerful religious systems, more specifically Christianity and Judaism, we can see, as is revealed in the Word of God, that after a War and a powerful attack by God's Word against the Beast of sea, one of its 7 heads was mortally wounded.

What will be Satan's strategy to heal the wound of the FIRST Beast?

Firstly he will manifest himself as a messiah, actually he is the man of sin, son of perdition, a former cherub, now incarnated as a MAN, and messiah of the Jews; What will he do? Revelation 13:11-13 says:
11 I beheld ANOTHER Beast coming up out of the earth (earth here is Israel); and he had two horns like a lamb(a false lamb, a false messiah, an esoteric/spiritist/kabbalistic false messiah), and he spake as a Dragon.

Here goes the strategy of Satan:
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the FIRST Beast - the Beast of sea, a Gentile Beast - before him - before the Beast of sea -, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST Beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he has power to do in the sight of the Beast - the Beast of sea - ; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the Beast - the Beast of sea - , which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

What more Satan, the MAN of sin, son of perdition, a former cherub, will do to heal the mortal wound of one of the 7 heads of the Beast of sea, the Gentile Beast?
Revelation 13:v.2-3 reveals:
2 ... and the Dragon-Satan-gave him-to the Beast of sea- his Power, and his Seat-Throne-, and great Authority.
3 And John saw one of the 7 heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the Beast -of sea -.


In no way are we now in the Apocalypse.

It is very important discerning the times. But how? For instance, Matt.25:.v.6 says: " at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him". JESUS, the Word that was made flesh - the Word is God - he was not making reference of men's watch, evidently, but God's watch.

The men's watch marks the beginning and end of a day, from 0 hour to 24 hours, or midnight.
God's watch marks the beginning and end of a Day, not by our clock, of course, so God's watch marks midnight on the last day of a millennium. Thus, 12/31/1999 ended a millennium and God's clock marked midnight. 01/01/2000 marked the beginning of a new millennium or 0 hours. Now, only on 12/31/2999, God's clock will mark again midnight.

That said, we understand that we are living in the first century of the seventh and last millennium, the Millennium of Christ, or the seventh and last day, the Lord's Day. In God's watch it's been a few minutes in these 20 years of this new millennium, the world will undergo a total transformation from now on. Who will reach the world to come that will be established by the Most High and Almighty God? Jesus answers: Luke 20: v.35-36

Any question? Any thoughts?

We will surely know about it as the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls happen.

Well, if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? 1Cor;14:v.8
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,044
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
That said, we understand that we are living in the first century of the seventh and last millennium, the Millennium of Christ, or the seventh and last day, the Lord's Day. In God's watch it's been a few minutes in these 20 years of this new millennium, the world will undergo a total transformation from now on. Who will reach the world to come that will be established by the Most High and Almighty God? Jesus answers: Luke 20: v.35-36

Any question? Any thoughts?
The 7000 year period of Gods Plan for mankind, does not relate to the Gregorian calendar.
A simple addition of all the times given for the Patriarchs, Judges and Kings, since Adam, to the known date of the Babylonian conquest of Judah, in 586 BC, is 3384.5, plus the 615.5 years until Jesus Baptism, making exactly 4000 years.
Then comes the 2000 year Church age, as prophesied by Hosea 6:2 and Jesus; Luke 13:32.
We are very close to the Day Jesus will Return for His Millennium reign. The final 1000 years of earth time.
 
Last edited:

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,044
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
I read; The Final events of Bible Prophecy.
It completely misses the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal, that will change the world.
It also assumes that the world will continue on much as it is now, until Jesus Returns.

There is a sad lack of scriptural back up for that book. It is basically a work of fiction.