The Rapture

I am glad this subject is allowed to be discussed again, because I still have questions. Even though I was taught the pre-trib rapture... after reading post here and elsewhere...I am not sure now, not convinced either way. I would love to get more grounded on this. "snatching up" of Christians is often referred to as "the Rapture of the Church." Right? and the word rapture is not in the Bible.The Greek word harpazo means "to seize ... catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), I will start here..

Concerning 'The Rapture' does that mean that so called 'Rapture believers' are trying to avoid spreading God's word and his love?

QUOTE (Nivleos @ Feb 19 2009, 10:35 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69439
Concerning 'The Rapture' does that mean that so called 'Rapture believers' are trying to avoid spreading God's word and his love?
No! that does not effect the spreading of God's love and word...

QUOTE (Nivleos @ Feb 19 2009, 10:35 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69439
Concerning 'The Rapture' does that mean that so called 'Rapture believers' are trying to avoid spreading God's word and his love?
Actually it does. A Rapture doctrine itself is a set-up to avoid God Words and in His love for those who teaches it. This is a pure doctrine of men and will lead people astray from God to worship Satan as "Jesus Christ". For those who say it doesn't effect God's love for all and His words does not even know what they are talking about.Matthew 15:14 - Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

No, as I believed in the pre-trib rapture...even if proved wrong, I would not bow down to the anti-christ. I love everyone, even those that do not believe as I do. As for God's word....I love Him and ever learning to understand Him more.I know people that believe different views on this...this does not affect my love toward them.I would like to share a little of what I was taught and if I am wrong..I am open to correction...like I said I would like to be grounded more on this. But I want scripture to prove me wrong and not opinion!The Bible says that Jesus will one day physically return to the earth and set up His government, and then He will reign on earth for one thousand years, as in these examples: "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."" (Jude 1:14-15) "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4) Jesus' return to the earth is often referred to as "the Second Coming of Christ." Here are the basic differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming: At the Rapture, Jesus will only come down as far as the clouds (but not all the way down to the earth), and then He will "snatch up" all Christians (living or dead). Our mortal bodies will be transformed into immortal bodies, and then Jesus will take us up into heaven where He will judge us according to our deeds. All saved mortals on the earth (i.e. all Christians) will be "taken" up in the Rapture to meet Jesus in the clouds, and all unsaved mortals on the earth will remain on the earth. At the Second Coming, Jesus will return all the way down to the earth, and all of us Christians who had been raptured will return to the earth with Him. No-one will be transformed from mortality to immortality, and no-one will go up into heaven. All unsaved mortals on the earth will be "taken" in judgment by being killed, and all saved mortals on the earth will remain on the earth. Notice that the events which will happen at the Rapture are essentially the exact opposite of the events which will take place at the Second Coming. They are two different events which will take place at two different times. We need to understand when the Second Coming will happen (in relation to other end-times events), what will happen at the Second Coming, and what events will follow the Second Coming.

QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 19 2009, 12:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69444
No, as I believed in the pre-trib rapture...even if proved wrong, I would not bow down to the anti-christ. I love everyone, even those that do not believe as I do. As for God's word....I love Him and ever learning to understand Him more.I know people that believe different views on this...this does not affect my love toward them.I would like to share a little of what I was taught and if I am wrong..I am open to correction...like I said I would like to be grounded more on this. But I want scripture to prove me wrong and not opinion!The Bible says that Jesus will one day physically return to the earth and set up His government, and then He will reign on earth for one thousand years, as in these examples: "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."" (Jude 1:14-15) "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4) Jesus' return to the earth is often referred to as "the Second Coming of Christ." Here are the basic differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming: At the Rapture, Jesus will only come down as far as the clouds (but not all the way down to the earth), and then He will "snatch up" all Christians (living or dead). Our mortal bodies will be transformed into immortal bodies, and then Jesus will take us up into heaven where He will judge us according to our deeds. All saved mortals on the earth (i.e. all Christians) will be "taken" up in the Rapture to meet Jesus in the clouds, and all unsaved mortals on the earth will remain on the earth. At the Second Coming, Jesus will return all the way down to the earth, and all of us Christians who had been raptured will return to the earth with Him. No-one will be transformed from mortality to immortality, and no-one will go up into heaven. All unsaved mortals on the earth will be "taken" in judgment by being killed, and all saved mortals on the earth will remain on the earth. Notice that the events which will happen at the Rapture are essentially the exact opposite of the events which will take place at the Second Coming. They are two different events which will take place at two different times. We need to understand when the Second Coming will happen (in relation to other end-times events), what will happen at the Second Coming, and what events will follow the Second Coming.
Setfree, you don't even know what you are talking about. You are purely speaking foolishness... straight from Satan lies. God is coming down to Earth... He doesn't leave not a single soul behind. He is coming to down to Earth both saved and unsaved will be on Earth period, as you are twisting scriptures to suit your own desire.There is no Rapture as God hates the Rapture doctrine. He is coming down to Earth. And the Millennium Reign is also on Earth. But you are free to disagree with God if you want this doctrine. I will say this... Prepare yourself for a rude awakening.

I am speaking what I was taught...and ask for scriptures to disprove it. If you read my threads properly..you would have read I am not sure what I believe....Now on the anti-christ....In the future there will be a "ruler" who will take over the entire world and who will carry out a horrific persecution of saints and the nation of Israel. The Bible refers to this ruler as "the man of lawlessness," "the antichrist," "the beast," and so on: "After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He [the future ruler] will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." (Daniel 9:26-27) "The king [the future ruler] will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all." (Daniel 11:36-37) "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming[/b]. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." (2 Thessalonians 2:3-10) "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18) "And the dragon [the devil, see Revelation 20:2] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast [the future ruler] coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?" The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." (Revelation 13:1-8)In 2 Thessalonians 2:3-10 (above) and Revelation 13:1-8 (above) we can see that this future ruler will be controlled by the devil, and the name that we usually use for this ruler is "the Antichrist." As we will see, the Antichrist will proclaim himself to be God, and he will take over the world for the final three and a half years before the Second Coming of Christ. In the Old Testament, the nation of Israel was monotheistic, meaning that the Jews believed in one God. The Gentile nations, on the other hand, believed in many pagan gods. In Daniel 11:36-37 (above), we see that the Antichrist will show no regard for "the gods of his fathers." The word "gods" is plural in the Hebrew in that passage, and this is an indication that the Antichrist will be a Gentile (not a Jew). In addition, Revelation 13:1-8 (above) describes the Antichrist coming out of "the sea," which often represents the Gentile nations in Biblical symbology. For example, an angel told the apostle John that "the waters" which John saw were "peoples, multitudes, nations and languages" (Revelation 17:15), which is a reference to the Gentile nations (not to the single nation of Israel). Also, the prophet Daniel was given a vision in which "Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea" (Daniel 7:3), and Daniel was told that "The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth" (Daniel 7:17). Again, this describes four Gentile kingdoms, not the single nation of Israel. This evidence indicates that the Antichrist will be a Gentile. In addition, the Antichrist will somehow be of Roman origin. Daniel 9:26-27 (above) says that "The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary." In the context of that verse, "the ruler who will come" is the Antichrist, and that verse says that the city of Jerusalem and the Jewish temple ("the sanctuary") will be destroyed by the people from whom the future Antichrist will come. In 70 A.D., the Romans attacked the city of Jerusalem (see the Historical Highlights at Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs ) and destroyed the Jewish temple (which has never been rebuilt), which means that the Romans are "the people" from whom the future Antichrist will come. Therefore, the Antichrist is likely to be a Gentile of Roman origin.

At the Rapture, Jesus will only come down as far as the clouds (but not all the way down to the earth), and then He will "snatch up" all Christians (living or dead). Our mortal bodies will be transformed into immortal bodies, and then Jesus will take us up into heaven where He will judge us according to our deeds. All saved mortals on the earth (i.e. all Christians) will be "taken" up in the Rapture to meet Jesus in the clouds, and all unsaved mortals on the earth will remain on the earth. {Quote} Setfree This is where the problem comes in there is no where to go this is never said Christ says he returns at the last trump(7th) all else is speculation of men there is not any scriptural support for any of this ... Flesh and blood can not enter heaven Satan is prince of the air ... God never say he is taking anybody anywhere ... We may meet him in the air when he comes and we are changed into our immortal spirit bodies in the twinkling of an eye the 7th trump but it will be short lived as he comes here to earth meet him /is not the same as being flown away.

QUOTE (Denver @ Feb 19 2009, 09:29 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69433
Moved to the correct forum.And to answer your question, yes, I do not believe in the pre-tribulational rapture commonly known as just the rapture. I've posted a Bible Study showing that it's not true and a statement showing that we don't believe in it. I'm not quite sure how else to say, I don't believe in it.
Who can blame you? I try not to believe things that aren't in the bible either

QUOTE (jburic09032 @ Feb 19 2009, 05:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69458
I don't know if I agree with you Jordan, Can you give us some scripture's.
I'll take it easy for a start... let's start with the parable first.Matthew 13:37 - He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;Matthew 13:38 - The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;Matthew 13:39 - The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.Matthew 13:40 - As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.Matthew 13:41 - The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;Matthew 13:42 - And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Matthew 13:43 - Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.I'm going to stop here so you can absorb this. As in my signature that has Isaiah 28:10, I must teach and show you line by line, precept upon precept before I continue this. It is not good to dump a whole bucket at a time. If you need help, please ask questions.

QUOTE (jburic09032 @ Feb 19 2009, 06:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69462
For some reason i didn't get what you said, how does that have anything to do with everyone's soul not getting left behind.
Well, the whole start of the process is some will follow Lord Jesus Christ and some will follow Satan. Again this is just only the start of the process. It's always been that way in the bible times.

QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 19 2009, 01:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69445
Setfree, you don't even know what you are talking about. You are purely speaking foolishness... straight from Satan lies. God is coming down to Earth... He doesn't leave not a single soul behind. He is coming to down to Earth both saved and unsaved will be on Earth period, as you are twisting scriptures to suit your own desire.There is no Rapture as God hates the Rapture doctrine. He is coming down to Earth. And the Millennium Reign is also on Earth. But you are free to disagree with God if you want this doctrine. I will say this... Prepare yourself for a rude awakening.
Lets look at the what the bible says in Mt 24:Mt 24:2121 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.then down to Mt 24:2929 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:Now AFTER this tribulation here is his coming:Mt 24:3737 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.Then we see this:Mt 24:40-4140 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.The key words to focus on here are "taken" and "left""taken" in greek is "paralambánetai" it means: to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act )in essence to receive by an act of intimacy"left" in greek is"afíetai" in means NT:cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield upThis means that some will be taken in the air as can also be seen from:1 Th 4:16-1816 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.However. as can be seen by the chronology of Mat 24 this isn't referring to a pretrib catching away but a POST tribulation one. That is why we are to comfort each other with these words during the tribualtion

QUOTE (shepherdsword @ Feb 19 2009, 09:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69465
QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 19 2009, 12:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69445
Setfree, you don't even know what you are talking about. You are purely speaking foolishness... straight from Satan lies. God is coming down to Earth... He doesn't leave not a single soul behind. He is coming to down to Earth both saved and unsaved will be on Earth period, as you are twisting scriptures to suit your own desire.There is no Rapture as God hates the Rapture doctrine. He is coming down to Earth. And the Millennium Reign is also on Earth. But you are free to disagree with God if you want this doctrine. I will say this... Prepare yourself for a rude awakening.
Lets look at the what the bible says in Mt 24:Mt 24:2121 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.then down to Mt 24:2929 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:Now AFTER this tribulation here is his coming:Mt 24:3737 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.Then we see this:Mt 24:40-4140 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.The key words to focus on here are "taken" and "left""taken" in greek is "paralambánetai" it means: to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act )in essence to receive by an act of intimacy"left" in greek is"afíetai" in means NT:cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield upThis means that some will be taken in the air as can also be seen from:1 Th 4:16-1816 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.However. as can be seen by the chronology of Mat 24 this isn't referring to a pretrib catching away but a POST tribulation one. That is why we are to comfort each other with these words during the tribualtionYou support that because? Scripture did say that Satan is the prince is the power of the air. (Ephesians 2:2)(Ephesians 2:2 - Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:As you can I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is a spiritual language (or figurative) of I Corinthians 15:50-54. Christ is going to take us back to our original body... the spiritual body. That's what it means... I am not interested in flying up to the air, when I know Christ is going to come down. So therefore I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is not meant to be taken it literally. Makes me think of Ezekiel 13:20 when I hear this sort of explanation.BTW, you are telling me things that I already know... I don't belong to any Rapture. I belong to the Second Coming.

The one taken one left is explained in the parables: the first taken are gathered by the reapers these are the Tares they are the first gathered We want to be the ones left behind working in the field the World untill the Last trump (7th) ... This has nothing to do with 1 Thess. but more to do with 2 Thess. The subjest here is the gathering to the Lord. It will not happen untill after the Man of Sin/ Lawlessness This is Antichrist Satan. See these two studies on the parables http://www.christianityboard.com/index.php...35&hl=fieldhttp://www.christianityboard.com/index.php...40&hl=field

QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 19 2009, 09:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69468
The one taken one left is explained in the parables: the first taken are gathered by the reapers these are the Tares they are the first gathered We want to be the ones left behind working in the field the World untill the Last trump (7th) ... This has nothing to do with 1 Thess. but more to do with 2 Thess. The subjest here is the gathering to the Lord. It will not happen untill after the Man of Sin/ Lawlessness This is Antichrist Satan. See these two studies on the parables http://www.christianityboard.com/index.php...35&hl=fieldhttp://www.christianityboard.com/index.php...40&hl=field
I agree with you 100% Christina. That is so true. Amen!

The Bible describes a future seven-year period of unprecedented suffering and distress during which God will pour out His wrath on the earth. It will begin when Israel signs a treaty with the Antichrist, and it will end at the Second Coming. This seven-year period of time is often referred to as "the Tribulation." Revelation 6:9-11 (below)...... describes a persecution and martyrdom of saints during the first half of the seven-year Tribulation: "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." (Revelation 6:9-11) This persecution of the saints during the first half of the Tribulation will be carried out by "Mystery Babylon," which will be a one-world religious system during the first half of the seven-year Tribulation period: "One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries." Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished." (Revelation 17:1-6) The above passage tells us that the kings of the earth will commit "spiritual adultery" with this "prostitute" (for more examples of adultery in a spiritual sense, see Jeremiah chapter 3 and Ezekiel chapter 16), which indicates that this will be a one-world religious system. This false religious system will be "drunk with the blood of the saints," which tells us that it will be responsible for a massive persecution of Christians. The Antichrist will break his treaty with Israel at the mid-point of the seven-year Tribulation period, and then he will begin a terrible persecution of the nation of Israel (as well as the Christians). According to the pre-tribulational view of the Rapture, the Rapture of the Church will happen before the seven-year Tribulation begins. According to the mid-tribulational view (and other views such as the pre-wrath and mid-wrath views), the Rapture will happen during the seven-year Tribulation period. According to the post-tribulational view, the Rapture will happen at the end of the seven-year Tribulation period as Jesus is returning to the earth at the Second Coming. I can show you why many people believe that the weight of Scriptural evidence supports the pre-trib view of the Rapture. Consider that all Christians will be "snatched up" to meet the Lord in the air when He comes for us at the Rapture, and therefore those who are "left behind" will all be unsaved. During the seven-year Tribulation there will be multitudes of people who will receive salvation, and they are all referred to as "saints" in the book of Revelation, just as Christians are referred to as "saints" (as in Ephesians 1:1), and just as all of the righteous people in Old Testament times are called "saints" (as in Psalm 30:4). Since there will be "a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language" (Revelation 7:9) who will receive salvation after the Rapture (according to the pre-trib view), how likely is it that not a single one of them had ever heard the Gospel message before the Rapture? It is more probable that many of them had rejected the Gospel before the Rapture, but then they received salvation after the Rapture. This would mean that people will have a "second chance" to receive salvation after being left behind when Jesus came back for the Church. However, those who are so hardened to the Gospel that they "refused to love the truth and so be saved" will be under a powerful delusion which will cause them to believe the Antichrist's lies (2 Thessalonians 2:10-11). Again, the Tribulation will be a seven-year period of time during which God will pour out His wrath on the earth. Multitudes of people will receive salvation during the Tribulation, but they will be persecuted by the "Mystery Babylon" religious system during the first half of the Tribulation. In addition, the Christians and the nation of Israel will be persecuted by the Antichrist during the second half of the Tribulation.