The Rapture

QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 20 2009, 05:26 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69544
I do not appreciate being accused of something I am not doing...You wrote...No Satan was not kicked out in Heaven when he entered the Garden of Eden. As Eden, the Garden of God was locked, as I believe that Satan was suppose to guard it... but he instead wants to go on his wicked path to make Adam and Eve sin.I did not twist your words...I questioned them because I did not understand where you got that in scripture. Then you got upset when you could not show me and accused me of twisting your words.Since it is believed by some that it is the church that is going to be raptured maybe we need to understand who is the church, the purpose and when it was created.....
I apologize setfree. Please forgive me... it just sounded like you are twisting my words. However, I am not going to talk about Eden anymore, because it doesn't include what this topic about. This is a topic about Rapture... not Adam & Eve, nor the Garden of Eden.

Hi you all. I'm new here, and hope this forum is the blessing it looks like it.That being said, I am a little concerned about some of the things I've read here that people are saying to their Christian Brothers and Sisters.I prayerfully dealt with my concern, and afterwards my open-the-Bible-to-wherever-and-hope-it's-the-Holy-Spirit-guiding-me Bible reading led me to Romans Chapter 14. My understanding of the Chapter is that there will be differences of opinions on some issues, and I think we should follow Pauls direction on how to deal with such.Regarding the Rapture, I also thought that those think it's later and get Raptured out sooner - what have you lost? Those who think it's earlier and have to stay here longer, if they're Christians, what harm will that do?Personally I'm of the conviction that it's an early Rapture based on my interpretation of Scriptures and the teachings I've heard from Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffrey, the Koinonia Institute(?), and Jack Van Impe.In conclusion, can't we - or shouldn't we - "reason together" on complex Biblical things that are subject to interpretation in an edifying and loving manner? You're right sometimes/wrong more Brother in Christ,Jim

With all due respect I think you have the wrong idea this is a Bible study site and we study scripture not opinions and most certainly not men and the scripture doesnt speak of any rapture ...Thats why its a debate it only a theroy Though the debates get a little heated at times ... We are all trying to find the truth of scripture not of men, not of religions We dont just say oh your opinion is this mine thats.... all's love and kisses ....as a Bible study site if one going to have opinions they had better have a scripture to back up their words or someone will call them on it ...we are not a fellowship site though we are all brothers and sisters in the Lord ..And we will always debate if we have scripture on our side thats what we do here debate scripture in an effort to better unerstand the Word You are completley wrong on this subject and whether or not there is a Rapture and when When Antichrist comes is one of the most important things this generation had better learn the cost if you do not is your very soul ...

QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 20 2009, 05:31 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69545
I apologize setfree. Please forgive me... it just sounded like you are twisting my words. However, I am not going to talk about Eden anymore, because it doesn't include what this topic about. This is a topic about Rapture... not Adam & Eve, nor the Garden of Eden.
Jordan, I do not mind anyone not agreeing with me. What you brought up, I had never heard.

QUOTE (shutin45 @ Feb 20 2009, 06:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69553
Regarding the Rapture, I also thought that those think it's later and get Raptured out sooner - what have you lost? Those who think it's earlier and have to stay here longer, if they're Christians, what harm will that do?Jim
I agree...If we are in Christ...we will go when He decides. But if I was taught wrong about the rapture, like I have been about other things, I want to know the truth. When I present what I believe or was taught and someone can show me in scripture where I am wrong. I hope I am open enough to the Holy Spirit to accept the truth. As far as how we treat each other in discussing the Word...I believe it should be in love. There is a way to correct someone without being hateful.

When was the Church created on the earth?Notice what Jesus said concerning the Church: "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." (Matthew 16:18) Jesus said that He "will" build His Church, which indicates that there was no such thing as "the Church" when Jesus made this statement. The Church was going to be a new thing which would be created in the future. Jesus used the Greek word ekklesia in the verse above, which means "assembly, church" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). There were other ekklesias ("assemblies") in the Bible, such as "the assembly in the desert" (Acts 7:38), and public assemblies of citizens (as in Acts 19:29-41), and so on. However, in Matthew 16:18 (above), Jesus described a unique form of ekklesia which would be directly related to Him ("my church").

Please stay on topic everyone We are making a concered effort to keep threads on topic we have been very lax in letting threads go every which way and its hard for anyone to follow when threads are read later people click on a topic to read that topic not everything under the sun you guys want to dicuss ... I would appreciate all your cooperation in this but if not I will clean up topics and delete any off topic posts .... If a topic leads to new question on another topic start a new thread on the new topic and we will discuss it there

Are you saying that the church has nothing to do with the rapture? If the rapture takes place...most believe it is the church that is going to be raptured. I think it is important to determine who the church is...Do I need to stop talking about the church?

QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 20 2009, 07:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69555
With all due respect I think you have the wrong idea this is a Bible study site and we study scripture not opinions and most certainly not men and the scripture doesnt speak of any rapture ...Thats why its a debate it only a theroy Though the debates get a little heated at times ... We are all trying to find the truth of scripture not of men, not of religions We dont just say oh your opinion is this mine thats.... all's love and kisses ....as a Bible study site if one going to have opinions they had better have a scripture to back up their words or someone will call them on it ...we are not a fellowship site though we are all brothers and sisters in the Lord ..And we will always debate if we have scripture on our side thats what we do here debate scripture in an effort to better unerstand the Word You are completley wrong on this subject and whether or not there is a Rapture and when When Antichrist comes is one of the most important things this generation had better learn the cost if you do not is your very soul ...
The "Truth of Scripture" is unquestionable. What is variable and subject to opinion - as defined by Webster - is the interpretation of some Scriptures. There is nothing wrong with "calling someone" to back up things said with Scriptures etc., but again I recommend reading Romans Chapter 14 and considering the words of God given to Paul about such.I also still say that people can debate things and attempt to get to the Truth without being offensive or rude etc. Satan and the forces of evil are often behind such. I would like to see Scripture that supports inconsiderate, rude, and offensive communications with fellow Christians.You cannot possibly know that I or anyone else who believes in the pre-trib Rapture is "completely wrong". Also, maybe I wasn't clear on it, but I do believe in the pre-trib Rapture. I'm also certain that for Christians, if it is a post-trib Rapture, that unless they take the mark of the beast "their very soul" is NOT in danger. This may also be a foolish assumption on my part, but no Christian I know would fall for the anti-Christ.

Notice that this new Church had come into existence by the time of Acts 2:41-47, and new members were being added to it daily: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church [ekklesia] daily such as should be saved." (Acts 2:41-47, KJV) Therefore, the Church was created sometime after Matthew 16:18 (above post) and before Acts 2:41-47. In fact, we can narrow it down even further by noticing that the Church was bought with the blood of Jesus: "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." (Acts 20:28) Therefore, the Church was created sometime after the cross and before Acts 2:41-47. Does everyone agree with this?

The Church is also called the "body of Christ": "And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way." (Ephesians 1:22-23) "Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work." (Ephesians 4:15-16) "And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy." (Colossians 1:18) The members of the Church are also said to be "in Christ": "Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was." (Romans 16:7) "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" (2 Corinthians 5:17) "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14) "Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons:" (Philippians 1:1) Those that are in Christ are the church and when Jesus comes back he is coming for his church..."For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him." (1 Corinthians 15:22-23) "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) Notice in these passages that when Jesus comes, He will resurrect "those who belong to Him" (1 Corinthians 15:22-23, above), and those who are "in Christ" (both of the passages above). The members of the Church are said to "belong to Christ" and to be "in Christ." For example, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc., all died before the cross and before the Church was born, and therefore they were not Christians (also see Romans 10:9). They were not "in Christ," which means that they will not meet the Lord in the air at the Rapture (look closely at the above two passages). In addition, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 (above) indicates that Christ will only resurrect those who belong to Him when He comes. Therefore, if anyone receives salvation after Jesus comes then they will not take part in the Rapture because they didn't belong to Him when He came. The only people who will take part in the Rapture are those who already belong to Jesus at the time of the Rapture, which is specifically the Church.

The true church is the Bride of Christ it is made up of all true believers Jew and gentile all will be Christ believers at his coming it is also called the Body of Christ it has nothing to do with any man made church/religion. It is this church of true believers that will become the overcomers ..... By not following antichrist ....... The true church is refered to in symbolism as the Bride waiting for the husband/ Bridegroom (who is Christ) to return

QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 20 2009, 11:46 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69572
The true church is the Bride of Christ it is made up of all true believers Jew and gentile all will be Christ believers at his coming it is also called the Body of Christ it has nothing to do with any man made church/religion. It is this church of true believers that will become the overcomers ..... By not following antichrist ....... The true church is refered to in symbolism as the Bride waiting for the husband/ Bridegroom (who is Christ) to return
Yes the true church will have jew and gentile...I did not say the body of Christ was a religion. I see you stated opinions which some I agree with...but no scripture support. As for the husband/bridegoom and bride symbolism...the Jewish marriage system is a good picture of this.

I guess I thought you read the scripture before .....when your through playing games and what to have a discussion I'll check back Untill then Im through with this thread. There is scripture about the overcomers that will regin and rule with Christ like I asked before in another post you ignored what do you think they have to overcome but as usual you never answer a questiuon you just change the subject to something else thus you never get to hear precept upon precept to gain understand your to busy jumping all over the place.

Why are you so upset..I have tried to lay down precept upon precept..here a little there a little. You have ignored all my post with scriptures. I showed what I believed/was taught about the Rapture, the Second Coming, the Antichrist, the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation, the Millennium, and the Church. I did not jump around..each one built upon the other.The only scripture I know that speaks of what we have to overcome is....1JO 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God OVERCOMETH the world: and this is the victory that OVERCOMETH the world, even our faith. 1JO 5:5 Who is he that OVERCOMETH the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? Those of us that pass away before the tribulation...what are we to overcome?....the world

QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 21 2009, 12:17 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69574
I guess I thought you read the scripture before .....when your through playing games and what to have a discussion I'll check back Untill then Im through with this thread.
Why when you respond do you have to add your insults? What did I say that makes you think I am playing games? How is sharing what you know about scriptures a game to you? From the very first I said I was going to share what I had learned and ask if I was wrong to show me with scriptures...with all the post I have made, since no one commented on them I figured I was on the right track.....

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6) I wanted to bring this scripture out because.... If the Church is Raptured before the seven-year Tribulation begins, and those Christians will then go through the judgment seat of Christ. The results of this judgment will determine their individual positions of authority in the Millennial Kingdom (because they will "judge the world" - see 1 Corinthians 6:1-3), so the Church Age Christians are "those who had been given authority to judge" in Revelation 20:4 (above). The second group of people in the above passage are the dead people who had received salvation during the Tribulation. At this point the Second Coming has already happened (it happened back in Revelation 19:11-21), so Revelation 20:4-6 (above) tells us that the Tribulation martyrs will be resurrected after the Second Coming. Notice in the above passage that the Church Age Christians and the Tribulation martyrs will co-reign with Christ on earth for 1,000 years. We will not be in heaven during that time, we will be back on earth in our glorified, immortal bodies. As the earth is being re-populated during the thousand-year reign of Christ, we will rule over those who survived the seven-year Tribulation (and their descendants). The third group of people in the above passage are "the rest of the dead [who] did not come to life until the thousand years were ended." This refers to all of the unrighteous people throughout history, and they will be resurrected after the thousand years are over.

QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 19 2009, 10:51 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69468
The one taken one left is explained in the parables: the first taken are gathered by the reapers these are the Tares they are the first gathered We want to be the ones left behind working in the field the World untill the Last trump (7th) ... This has nothing to do with 1 Thess. but more to do with 2 Thess. The subjest here is the gathering to the Lord. It will not happen untill after the Man of Sin/ Lawlessness This is Antichrist Satan. See these two studies on the parables http://www.christianityboard.com/index.php...35&hl=fieldhttp://www.christianityboard.com/index.php...40&hl=field
*disclaimer* I adhere to a post trib second comingYou are going to have to explain the meanings I posted for "taken" and "left"Your interpretation doesn't hold up when we examine the greek.The word "taken" in this instance means "to receive by intimate action"The word "left" means to be forsaken.However, this doesn't back up a pretrib rapture since it occurs AFTER the tribulation of those days as stated in verse 29QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 19 2009, 10:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69467
You support that because? Scripture did say that Satan is the prince is the power of the air. (Ephesians 2:2)(Ephesians 2:2 - Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:As you can I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is a spiritual language (or figurative) of I Corinthians 15:50-54. Christ is going to take us back to our original body... the spiritual body. That's what it means... I am not interested in flying up to the air, when I know Christ is going to come down. So therefore I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is not meant to be taken it literally. Makes me think of Ezekiel 13:20 when I hear this sort of explanation.BTW, you are telling me things that I already know... I don't belong to any Rapture. I belong to the Second Coming.
I support it because the scripture clearly states it. It's more likely that the "prince of the power of the air" is a figurative description. You can't apply a figurative definition to "air" and then apply a literal one to "heaven" in the same verse. You DO think the "heaven" that the Lord will descend from is literal don't you? QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 19 2009, 10:51 PM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=69468][/url]
The one taken one left is explained in the parables: the first taken are gathered by the reapers these are the Tares they are the first gathered We want to be the ones left behind working in the field the World untill the Last trump (7th) ... This has nothing to do with 1 Thess. but more to do with 2 Thess. The subjest here is the gathering to the Lord. It will not happen untill after the Man of Sin/ Lawlessness This is Antichrist Satan. See these two studies on the parables http://www.christianityboard.com/index.php...35&hl=fieldhttp://www.christianityboard.com/index.php...40&hl=field
Look at the keys words "taken" and "left" in those passages and see if they fit into this interpretation.

This is how I understand the wheat and tares...Jesus said that when He returns in His glory, all of the Gentiles ("the nations") who survived the seven-year Tribulation will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them into two groups: "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left." (Matthew 25:31-33) Those on His right (the "sheep") will be the saved Gentiles who treated the Jews in a compassionate Christian way during the seven-year Tribulation: "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'" (Matthew 25:34-40) Those on His left (the "goats") will be the unsaved Gentiles who did not provide assistance to the Jews during the seven-year Tribulation: "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matthew 25:41-46) The purpose of the "Sheep and Goats Judgment" will be to separate the Gentile survivors of the seven-year Tribulation into two groups: Those who will live in the Millennial Kingdom and those who will be cast into eternal punishment. Notice that this judgment will only affect Gentiles, it will not affect Jews. This is because the Jewish survivors of the seven-year Tribulation were regenerated (saved) as a nation just before the Second Coming, and therefore all surviving Jews will be allowed into the Millennial Kingdom. In fact, the very basis for determining which Gentiles will be allowed into the Millennial Kingdom is how they treated the Jewish people during the seven-year Tribulation (Joel 2:31-3:3, 11-12, above, and Matthew 25:31-46, above). The saved and unsaved Gentiles will be judged on the basis of their deeds, but this does not imply that salvation is based on works. Only the Christian Gentiles will help the Jewish people during the Tribulation, and they will be demonstrating their faith by their deeds (see James 2:14-26). The saved Gentiles will remain alive and will be blessed by being allowed to enter into the Millennial Kingdom. The unsaved Gentiles will be killed, and eventually they will be cast into the Lake of Fire to be punished eternally.

That is an interesting topic. I suggest you start a new thread where we can discuss judgment.