The Rapture

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followerofchrist

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I suggest everyone here read, thoroughly and prayerfully, all of Matthew 24. But just a few verses that make it PAINFULLY clear that Jesus does not return before the tribulation to gather his people:" 29"Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c] 30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."Matthew 24: 29-311It doesn't get much more straight forward than that.
 

setfree

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QUOTE (followerofchrist @ Feb 21 2009, 09:26 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69587
I suggest everyone here read, thoroughly and prayerfully, all of Matthew 24. But just a few verses that make it PAINFULLY clear that Jesus does not return before the tribulation to gather his people:" 29"Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c] 30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."Matthew 24: 29-311It doesn't get much more straight forward than that.
Theses scriptures speak of the second coming...not the rapture. I posted some of the differences in post #7.There are a number of passages in the Bible which say that the sun and moon and stars will be darkened in connection with end-times events, as in these examples: "I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." (Joel 2:30-31) "Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine." (Joel 3:14-15) "See, the day of the LORD is coming --a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger-- to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light." (Isaiah 13:9-10) "The LORD is angry with all nations; his wrath is upon all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter. Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will send up a stench; the mountains will be soaked with their blood. All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree." (Isaiah 34:2-4) "In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord." (Acts 2:17-20) A common mistake which is easy to make when studying the Bible is when we assume that various passages are all referring to the same event simply because on the surface those passages happen to sound similar to each other. For example, when we see passages which describe the sun and moon and stars being darkened somehow, it is easy to make the assumption that those passages are all describing the same "blackout." However, when we look more closely then we will discover that there will be multiple "blackouts" of the sun and moon and stars during and after the seven-year Tribulation. QUOTE (shepherdsword @ Feb 21 2009, 08:53 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69583
That is an interesting topic. I suggest you start a new thread where we can discuss judgment.
I thought someone brought up the wheat and the tares?????
 

setfree

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I have been taught that it is the church that will be raptured...something that confuses alot is determining who is the church...By the time the Millennium begins there will have been four groups of saints throughout history (the word "saint" in the Bible basically means "a righteous person"): The Old Testament saints (all of the righteous people who died before the Church Age began at Pentecost). The Church Age Christians (everyone who had saving faith in Jesus between Pentecost and the pre-trib Rapture). The Tribulation martyrs (everyone who died with saving faith in Jesus during the seven-year Tribulation). The Tribulation survivors (everyone who survived the seven-year Tribulation as well as the Sheep and Goats Judgment). The Tribulation survivors will still be alive when the Millennium begins, and therefore they will not need to be resurrected. Concerning the Church Age Christians, Jesus had "snatched" all of the living and dead Church Age Christians off of the earth and had taken them back into heaven with Him before the seven-year Tribulation began. The Church Age Christians will be in heaven in their resurrected, glorified, immortal bodies during the seven-year Tribulation period. So at the time of the Second Coming, the dead Old Testament saints and the dead Tribulation saints have not yet been resurrected. They will be resurrected after the Second Coming and shortly before the Millennium begins. For example, the prophet Daniel was told that after the Tribulation, all of his people who are found to be righteous will be resurrected to everlasting life: "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:1-2) All of the Old Testament saints will be resurrected to everlasting life just after the seven-year Tribulation period, as Daniel 12:1-2 indicates (above). All of the unrighteous people throughout history will be resurrected to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2, above), but we will see in the next passage that this will happen after Christ reigns for 1,000 years on earth. Daniel 12:1-2 (above) describes two different resurrections (one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous), but these two resurrections will not happen at the same time. All of the righteous people who died during the seven-year Tribulation will be resurrected shortly after the Second Coming: "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6) As I stated earlier...it mentions thrones in heaven and those seated who already had authority to judge. He also saw the tribulation saints...who are the rest of the dead?
 

Christina

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QUOTE (shepherdsword @ Feb 21 2009, 12:47 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69578
*disclaimer* I adhere to a post trib second comingYou are going to have to explain the meanings I posted for "taken" and "left"Your interpretation doesn't hold up when we examine the greek.The word "taken" in this instance means "to receive by intimate action"The word "left" means to be forsaken.However, this doesn't back up a pretrib rapture since it occurs AFTER the tribulation of those days as stated in verse 29 I support it because the scripture clearly states it. It's more likely that the "prince of the power of the air" is a figurative description. You can't apply a figurative definition to "air" and then apply a literal one to "heaven" in the same verse. You DO think the "heaven" that the Lord will descend from is literal don't you? Look at the keys words "taken" and "left" in those passages and see if they fit into this interpretation.
The tares are gatherd first not the faithful I dont normally give Rapture supporting sites as referance but even A good Rature supporting sites understand the two in the field is not talking about Rapture and we are not to be the first gathered http://zile.org/otol.htmlAs I have said and has never been shown there is no Raoture written in scripture there never was is called Rapture theroy because that all it is a Theroy created by men... Even if you chose to believe it is not written in the Bible
 

setfree

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QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 21 2009, 12:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69596
As I have said and has never been shown there is no Raoture written in scripture there never was is called Rapture theroy because that all it is a Theroy created by men... Even if you chose to believe it is not written in the Bible
Some people do not believe in the Rapture because they say that the word "Rapture" does not appear anywhere in Scripture. However, the words "Trinity" and "Second Coming" (for example) never appear in the Bible either, yet all of these concepts are taught quite clearly in Scripture even if those specific terms are not used. Strictly speaking, though, the word "Rapture" does appear in the Bible, just not in any English translation. Again, the English word "Rapture" comes from the Latin word raptus, which appears in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible (using the rapiemur form of the verb).
 

Christina

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It has nothing to do with word setfree the concept is not there there is no scripture no secret coming written no flying away written the word doesnt mean what men claim as I written a 1000 times the subject of 1 Thess. is the church was 3 weeks old they heard a rumor Christ had returned and they wanted to know where the dead where as they are said to raised first when Timothy heard this he reported it to Paul ....Who quickley replied with 2 Thess. explaining the gathering to the Lord that it would not be untill after the Man of Sin/lawlessness 2 Thess corrects the misunderstanding of the 3 week old church in of 1 Thess. was written in part as a lesson against .... listening to rumors ...or you will be mislead as the babes in 1 Thess.Where did the Rapture theroy come from http://www.scionofzion.com/pretrib_rapture_diehards.htm
 

shutin45

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QUOTE (followerofchrist @ Feb 21 2009, 11:26 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69587
I suggest everyone here read, thoroughly and prayerfully, all of Matthew 24. But just a few verses that make it PAINFULLY clear that Jesus does not return before the tribulation to gather his people:" 29"Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c] 30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."Matthew 24: 29-311It doesn't get much more straight forward than that.
I think we should also, considering the Concordance of the Saints, study Luke Chapter 21 and Mark Chapter 13.I have noted that many post-trib Rapture proponents take the word "tribulation" in Matthew 24:29 out of context so to speak. The word tribulation there is just an adjective describing the terrible trials and troubles of those (these?) days.On a tangent, like discussions on predestination etc., I think we can sometimes get carried away on the subject and miss the big picture. The Verses and/or comments here on interpretations of them is invaluable. Don't get me wrong. BUT....what does our Lord and Savior Jesus tell us to do with His discourse on the Last Days in the different Gospels? Let us not be distracted from heeding those directions. Lastly, Jesus noticed the confusion and perplexion of His Disciples and others when He spoke of things and usually clarified His meanings. I love reading His words because I don't think they need much interpretation.May God bless you all. Regardless of when you think the Rapture will occur. " Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not [charity] love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can remove mountains, but do not have [charity] love, I am nothing." - 1st Corinthians Chapter 13 Verses 1 and 2
 

Christina

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Well that is fine if thats all you want from scripture but the surface text is called the Milk God tells us to learn the meat (the deeper things of Gods Word he teaches on three levels much like an onion there is later upon layer of teaching ... Unfortunatley today in our fast food society we treat the scripture the same we dont take the time nor do our churches teach the meat or how to uncover it that is why we have this site to study and learn the meat as we are commanded to do ... Meat sustains the Adult ...so if you are comfortable not digging deeper that is your choice ... But there is so much more you are missing It is this very fact that Gods children are not taught the meat of his Word that causes Amos 8:11-12 to be true.
 

setfree

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The 7 year tribulation purpose will help us understand more about why the church is not the focus...therefore, no reason to be here during that time.....God sent the angel Gabriel to give Daniel the 70 Weeks prophecy concerning another 490-year period of time: Daniel 9:20: "While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill--" Daniel 9:21: "while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice." Daniel 9:22: "He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding." Daniel 9:23: "As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vision:" Daniel 9:24: ""Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy." Daniel 9:25: ""Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble." Daniel 9:26: "After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed." Daniel 9:27: "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."" I would like to discuss this prophecy verse by verse: Daniel 9:24: "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy." This verse says that God had decreed a period of "70 sevens" (490 years) concerning Daniel's people (the Jews) and the holy city (Jerusalem). The purpose of these 70 "sevens" or 70 "weeks" was to finish transgression, put an end to sin, atone for wickedness, bring in everlasting righteousness, seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy (Daniel 9:24, above). This indicates that when the 70 "weeks" (490 years) are completed, then the sins of Israel will finally and for all time be put to an end, and everlasting righteousness will be brought in. Notice that this 70 Weeks prophecy is specifically dealing with Israel's disobedience to God, and it specifically relates to Jerusalem and the Jews.
 

Christina

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Right and the 70th week hasnt happened and the church is Israel in prophecy its called the whole house of Israel that is Jew and Gentile rejoined under Christ the two sticks of Eze. 37 rejoined under Christ. So if you are part of the true Church you are Israel not only that who do you believe the 10 lost tribes are as taught 5 thousand times by many the ten lost tribes scattered in 70 AD in to Scotland Ireland Britian and eventully the U.S. Canda Australia the ten tribes became the Christian nations. Its why you will find The Stone used for Jacobs Pillow (from Jacobs latter Dream) under the throne of West minister Abby until recently when it was returned to Scotland All Royalty has been crowned sitting on this pillar of Jacob aso called the stone of Destiny or Stone of Scone This is also written in Eze 17 if one can understand it as its a Parable in a RiddleWe may have forgotten from where we came but I assure you God has not ... Precept upon precept upon preceptStone of Destinyhttp://www.christianityboard.com/index.php...58&hl=StoneSo again there is no basis for Rapure in the entire Word of God, the more you understand of Gods Word the more you will come to see this is true
 

Christina

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The truly faithful will understand they should never worry nor doubt that God protects his own not by fly away doctrines that man dreamed up but as he did in Egypt on Passover and the Angel of death touched not a hair on the Hebrews head.. only the blood on our door post in from the Lamb of God.... He says to we should never forget Passover ... Where God protects his people ... Only the Elect of God will tried by Antichrist because they like Job have been sealed by God and will not break and God will use them to turn the hearts of many who were fooled by Antichrist back to him ...before the great and terrable Day of the Lord ... When he comes after Satan and his ... This is the faith God expects one to have faith in him and his Word not faith in some mans theroy that was never written
 

setfree

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Daniel 9:25: "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble." This tells us that the 70 "weeks" will begin when a decree is issued to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. According to The Bible Knowledge Commentary (Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.1362), there were four decrees issued in the Old Testament in reference to the Jews. The first of these decrees was issued by Cyrus in 538 B.C., and it is recorded in 2 Chronicles 36:23 and Ezra 1:2. However, that decree was only for rebuilding the temple, not for restoring and rebuilding the city of Jerusalem. Darius I also decreed a rebuilding of the temple in 520 B.C., but this was simply a confirmation of Cyrus' decree (see Ezra 6:6-13). The third decree was issued by Artaxerxes Longimanus in 458 B.C. (see Ezra 7:11-26), but it related specifically to finances for animal sacrifices at the temple. None of these decrees said anything about rebuilding the actual city of Jerusalem, which is what the angel Gabriel had prophesied. The decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (in Daniel's prophecy) was issued by Artaxerxes Longimanus in 445 (or 444) B.C. (see Nehemiah 2:1-8). Therefore, the starting date for the 70 "weeks" is accepted by many scholars as being 445 (or 444) B.C., when the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was issued in fulfillment of Daniel 9:25 (above). The angel Gabriel had said that from the issuing of this decree until the Anointed One comes (i.e. the Messiah - see Luke 4:18, Acts 4:27, 10:38), there will be 7 "weeks" plus 62 "weeks" (483 years). If we start with 445 (or 444) B.C. and we add 483 years, taking into account the Jewish lunar calendar, this brings us right up to the Triumphal Entry where Jesus officially entered Jerusalem as the Messiah, riding on a donkey. For a detailed description of the math involved, see The Bible Knowledge Commentary (Walvoord and Zuck, p.1363), or The Footsteps of the Messiah (Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, p.131), or Major Bible Prophecies (John Walvoord, chapter 16), or other books on Bible prophecy. When Jesus entered Jerusalem riding on a donkey, Bible scholars refer to this as "the Triumphal Entry" because Jesus was officially presenting Himself to Israel as the Messiah by fulfilling a prophecy of the Messiah in Zechariah 9:9: "The next day the great crowd that had come for the Feast heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written, "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt." [Zechariah 9:9]. At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him." (John 12:12-16) These actions by the Jews and these shouts of greeting had been prophesied concerning the long-awaited Messiah (see for example Zechariah 9:9 and Psalm 118:22-27), which tells us that the crowd was greeting Jesus as the Messiah. So at the end of the 69th "week," Jesus was officially entering Jerusalem as "the Anointed One," right on schedule (in the Greek, the word "Christ" means "Anointed," according to Strong's Greek Dictionary). The angel Gabriel's prophecy to Daniel was literally and accurately fulfilled at that moment, and the 69 "weeks" of Daniel 9:25 (above) had come to an end. This means that there was one more "week" (7 more years) left to go until Israel's sins would be completely removed for all time.
 

shutin45

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First of all, thanks Christina for giving me the revelation about getting to the meat in a Biblical manner that didn't offend or "smite your fellowservant".There is MUCH that you have faithfully learned from the Bible (with the Holy Spirits help) which you can teach and share with others. My commendation to you on another topic here at Christianity Board also is due to Setfree and others who have shared their revelations and associated relevant Bible Verses here. If you (we) are to boast of anything, it's that you (we) know the Lord - Jeremiah 9:24. I hope I haven't misinterpreted that. Anyway, if one knows the Word, and the Word is God, then knowing the Word may be covered by that Verse. If it's something you can boast of, then it's something you've done to be recognized and honored. We are to give honor where it is due. I'm not trying to be patronizing.Following are two renowned Prophecy Ministers websites for people in search of Scriptural Truth relating to the Rapture and other Biblical Prophecies. These Anointed Men of God have dedicated many years of their lives to learning about and conveying Prophecy. Grant Jeffrey -http://www.grantjeffrey.com/and Hal Lindsey -http://www.hallindsey.com/I think they're pre-trib Rapture believers, but if we're truly in search of the Truth, we should be willing to hear/read their points and the Scriptural references they get them from.
 

Christina

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Hal and Grant are both fine at what they do but like all ministers on T.V. They are not allowed to say what they think if it doesnt go along with the believes of the money people Did you know you can not have a T.V, ministery without follow rules of the big boys. 40 years ago not minister agreed on rather there was a Rapure and if there was was it a pre trib/mid trib/ or post trib. Untill the powers that be decided there would be a pre trib and you better follow the rules if you want a Show on their network ... Hal Grant ,Van Impe all are only men doing as they are told it doesnt mean Rapture is in Gods Word its a mans doctrine .. The fact they support it doesnt make it true if its not in Gods Word we are to follow God not men ... We are to weigh everything againt scripture and if it doesnt stand up we are not to believe it. It makes no differance what any mans name is or what he says ... Rapture does not stand up to scriptureits as simple as that
 

Nivleos

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I just thought of something that I would really like answering...There obviously isn't a pre-triulational rapture HOWEVER, when Jesus comes to Earth again will there be a Post-tribulational 'rapture' to take us all to heaven?Just wondering
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shutin45

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I still suggest that anyone who wants to know the Truth should visit those websites as part of their search.Don't assume it's all for money or "Christian political correctness". They are not doing what they're "told". They routinely say things that are VERY politically incorrect and that don't sit well with powers in this world possibly far more detrimental to them than the mainstream Christian community. They have weighed and studied the Scriptures for YEARS to reach the conclusions they have reached. Just like debates/discussions with others here, there's nothing wrong, and possibly much to be gained - Rapture and other Prophecies - from reading what they have to say. Which again is based on and accompanied by pertinent Scriptural references.The Rapture is in Gods word. The specific word itself isn't, but it's the term used for when Christians are taken away mentioned in Matthew 24:40 and 41 and non-Christians are left behind. WHENEVER - pre or post tribulation - that is. Like Setfree, I want to know the Truth whatever it is, and if you have some websites like those, but from other renowned and Anointed Ministers who have a post-trib Rapture viewpoint and supporting Scriptural references, I'll gladly visit them and read/hear what they have to say. It's not like either viewpoint is evil.Like the Romans 14 reference I've mentioned before says, there are minor differerences in beliefs that Christians will have, and Paul gives guidance from God there on how we should deal with such.
 

Christina

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QUOTE (Nivleos @ Feb 22 2009, 12:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69659
I just thought of something that I would really like answering...There obviously isn't a pre-triulational rapture HOWEVER, when Jesus comes to Earth again will there be a Post-tribulational 'rapture' to take us all to heaven?Just wondering
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We may momentarily rise to meet him in the air when he come Nivleos but it will be very short lived as Christ sets up his kingdom here on earth we will be here with him in our new incorubtable bodies (1 Cor.15) We are all changed in the twinkling of an eye and you need others mens words you only need Gods .. And god say there is nothing new under the sun meaning that what has happened before will happen again just as he gave us Passover as our example of how to escape the Angel of death the first time he expects you to learn he will take care of you the same way again the blood of our lamb Jesus Christ is on the dooor post of your heart and he will protect you Just have the faith and trust in him to do so you are his Child and he loves you ..Never listen to men over your Father ...Weigh everything you hear against the Word if it isnt written discard it ... There is only one second coming and thats after the tribulation ..and its written ... Anything else is of man
 

setfree

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QUOTE (Nivleos @ Feb 22 2009, 02:07 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69659
I just thought of something that I would really like answering...There obviously isn't a pre-triulational rapture HOWEVER, when Jesus comes to Earth again will there be a Post-tribulational 'rapture' to take us all to heaven?Just wondering
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Most people believe in the rapture whether they admit it or not....they just do not agree when it is going to happen. That is why the strongest evidence in the Bilbe needs to do the convincing and not opinions.Since most disagree on the time of the rapture....we need to look into the 7 years of trib. ....I believe the various judgments which will take place during the Tribulation will show how they support the pre-trib view of the Rapture. In the book of Revelation, seven events are described which are often referred to as "the Seal Judgments." Then seven more events are described which are often called "the Trumpet Judgments." Then there are seven more events which are often called "the Bowl Judgments." Pre-tribbers, and many mid-tribbers, believe that these 21 events will happen consecutively (one after the other), but post-tribbers tend to believe that there is one time period which is being described from three different perspectives. In other words, post-tribbers sometimes say that the Seal Judgments will happen during the same time period as the Trumpet Judgments, which will happen during the same time period as the Bowl Judgments (rather than these 21 judgments happening one after the other). The difference between these two interpretations is significant, because it has an impact on people's views concerning the timing of end-times events. A little background...When God gave possession of the land to the Israelites, He commanded that the land must not be sold permanently. The reason was because the land was owned by God, and the Israelites were tenants and servants: "The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants. Throughout the country that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land. If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his property, his nearest relative is to come and redeem what his countryman has sold. If, however, a man has no one to redeem it for him but he himself prospers and acquires sufficient means to redeem it, he is to determine the value for the years since he sold it and refund the balance to the man to whom he sold it; he can then go back to his own property. But if he does not acquire the means to repay him, what he sold will remain in the possession of the buyer until the Year of Jubilee. It will be returned in the Jubilee, and he can then go back to his property. If a man sells a house in a walled city, he retains the right of redemption a full year after its sale. During that time he may redeem it. If it is not redeemed before a full year has passed, the house in the walled city shall belong permanently to the buyer and his descendants. It is not to be returned in the Jubilee. But houses in villages without walls around them are to be considered as open country. They can be redeemed, and they are to be returned in the Jubilee. ... for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the LORD your God." (Leviticus 25:23-31, 55) In the passage above, we can see that the Israelites were God's servants who held tenant-possession of the land of Israel, and God gave them instructions to ensure that each piece of land remained within the family (or clan) which was given that piece of land. Examples of this principle is in..(Numbers 27:8-11) (Numbers 36:2-8)So the land which each family had (as an inheritance from God) needed to remain within that tribal clan. If a widow or a person who had fallen on hard times needed to sell the right of tenant-possession to some land, it was the responsibility of the nearest "kinsman" (the nearest relative) to redeem the land by buying it (Leviticus 25:23-31, above). Here is an example of a "kinsman-redeemer": (Ruth 1:3, 2:1, 4:2-4) The kinsman-redeemer had the right and the responsibility to redeem the land (if possible) in order to ensure that it remained within the family. However, sometimes a family's land was taken over by foreign invaders: "Remember, O LORD, what has happened to us; look, and see our disgrace. Our inheritance has been turned over to aliens, our homes to foreigners." (Lamentations 5:1-2) As the Babylonians were besieging Jerusalem, the prophet Jeremiah acted as a kinsman-redeemer for his cousin Hanamel: (Jeremiah 32:1-15) In that example, the "redemption price" was 17 shekels of silver, which gave Jeremiah the right to possess that area of land (notice that Hanamel had said, "Since it is your right to redeem it and possess it, buy it for yourself"). After a deed was signed, the scroll was then rolled up and sealed with drops of wax which would dry and seal the scroll to protect it from tampering. Then the scroll was signed on the outside by witnesses, as in the passage above. As in Jeremiah's case, sometimes an exact copy was made and left unsealed so that the terms and conditions of the sale were able to be read. If someone suspected that the unsealed copy of the deed had been altered, the purchaser (Jeremiah in this case) was the only person who was authorized to break the seals on the deed and reveal its contents. Another thing to notice here is that when Jeremiah purchased the land, he did not immediately take possession of it. Since he was a prisoner, and since the land had been invaded by the Babylonians, Jeremiah ordered that the copies of the deed be kept in a safe place for a long time (until he returned to take possession of the land). When Jeremiah returned to take possession of the land, if an invader who occupied the land wanted to challenge Jeremiah's right of ownership, Jeremiah could break the seals on the scroll and prove his ownership. With this background information in mind, recall that God owns the entire earth. God gave the right of tenant-possession over all the earth to the human race through Adam and Eve: "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."" (Genesis 1:26) However, a foreign invader (the devil) managed to gain possession of the earth through deceit when Adam and Eve were swayed by the devil and rebelled against God's authority. This is why the devil said that the kingdoms of the world had been given to him (which Jesus didn't deny), and why the devil is called "the prince of this world" and "the god of this age": (Luke 4:5-8) (John 14:30) (2 Corinthians 4:4) (1 John 5:19) So Adam and Eve (and the human family) were given the right of tenant-possession over all the earth, but through their sin the devil was able to gain control over the world. Notice that when Jesus was born on the earth, He became a part of the human family. As our relative, He was in the position to be our kinsman-redeemer. The "purchase price" that He paid was His blood, and He redeemed what we had lost. The "deed of purchase" belongs to Jesus. As in Jeremiah's case, Jesus did not immediately take possession of the land (the earth), but instead He is in heaven while the land (the earth) is occupied by foreign invaders (the devil and his angels and his human captives). Before Jesus returns at the Second Coming, He will bombard the devil's kingdom through a series of judgments, and then He will finally evict the enemy and take full possession of the land (the earth). The devil will try to prevent Jesus from taking possession of the earth (Revelation 19:11-19), but the "scroll deed of purchase" proves that Jesus is the rightful owner of the earth. This background is important as we look into the judgements...
 

Christina

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QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 22 2009, 03:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69666
We may momentarily rise to meet him in the air when he come Nivleos but it will be very short lived as Christ sets up his kingdom here on earth we will be here with him in our new incorubtable bodies (1 Cor.15) We are all changed in the twinkling of an eye and you need others mens words you only need Gods .. And god say there is nothing new under the sun meaning that what has happened before will happen again just as he gave us Passover as our example of how to escape the Angel of death the first time he expects you to learn he will take care of you the same way again the blood of our lamb Jesus Christ is on the dooor post of your heart and he will protect you Just have the faith and trust in him to do so you are his Child and he loves you ..Never listen to men over your Father ...Weigh everything you hear against the Word if it isnt written discard it ... There is only one second coming and thats after the tribulation ..and its written ... Anything else is of man
Believe what is written and what your Father says it laid out pretty simple for those with eyes to see and ears to hear 2 Thessalonians 2 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, One can easily see the subject here the coming of the Lord and our gathering to him this is what is being spoken of here 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Here he saying do not be troubled or shaken by any words or any letter this was written to correct the misunderstanding of the church at Thess. They heard a rumor christ had returned and they were confused by the first letter of 1 Thess ... which talks about where the dead are ..this accompanied by the rumor they had heard confused them so Paul wrote this letter about the gathering to clear up any misunderstandings about our gathering ...yet men base Rapture on the same misunderstanding the people at Thess. had and Ignore 2 Thess. that corrects this misunderstanding. So he says do not troubled by Words of men or letters that caused confussion.3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Let no man deceive you or tell you differently The gathering will NOT I REPEAT WILL NOT ..come untill after the Man of Sin be revealed, the son of Perdition... This is Antichrist (Satan) he is the man of Sin he is the Son of Perdition ..Perdition means judged to be utterly destroyed ... 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [/size] How do we know this is Satan (as Antichrist ) Satan is the only one who ever dared try to set his throne above God he is the one that will set himself up in the temple and declare himself god (this is called the abomination of Desolation) it happens in the middle of the tribulation (see Isa. 14 for Satans description)So to summerize we are told here that concerning the gathering to the lord it will not occur untll Antichrist (Satan) is revealed which will happen in the middle of the tribulation.... So now we are at the middle of the tribulation and no gathering has occuredcompletley ruling out any pre trib Rapture. Now from the mid point on only the Elect of God are presicuted by Antichrist As is written in Mark 13... they will be put on trial ...but even then God resures them in Rev. that they bwill not be persicuted longer than 10 days ... he also says he will shorten this time for the Elects sake ... So the average overcomer who not of the Elect will be protected not persicuted 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And again he reminds the Thess that he told them these things so they should remember that not their misunderstanding 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. He is being held till an appointed time when he will be revealed 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. He is being held untill the things that hold him are taken out of the Way (Michael and Gods mystery are hodling him) 8And [size="2]then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: And then the wicked will be destroyed by the Lords coming 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, Antichrist (Satan ) with all his power and sign and lying wonders (miracles) will be destroyed 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. All that follow a fake christ and his lie and deceit will perish ... because they believed the lie that the one who comes first is the wrong christ they did not love their father enought to read his words they loved the lie Rapture is a big part of this lie it keeps people from understanding that Antichrist the man of sin comes before Christ instead they are told you dont need to learn this you are just magically gonna fly out of here ... God never says it ...its never written... God says flesh ans Blood can not enter heaven so they can not be flown to heven ... The air is ruled by Satan ..he is the prince of the air so tyou dont want to go there so where is it these Rapture people think they are going ...answer no where they will be right here on earth and if they dont follow the first fake christ God will protect them as he did on that Passover day in Eygpt .. Trust your father do not believe mens lies do not be fooled as the church in Thess was in 1 thess. hear your fathers promise to you ... Have no fear have faith in him not men
 

watchman

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I read through the 1st and last page of this thread and I have to ask christina and Jordon. Do you not believe in the pretrib rapture or are you denying the catching away of the living saints at the coming of Christ all together?
 
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