The Rapture

It was not erased it was set to invisable because of the attitude you can ask a question you can address a post but when you just single out posters with that attitude Your post will be deleted Now its not mine and Jordans view its many peoples view and there is a statement on the view of this entire site not just mine seconldly I alreadt address 1 Thess in my last post abovehttp://www.christianityboard.com/index.php?showtopic=506

QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 22 2009, 06:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69666
We may momentarily rise to meet him in the air when he come Nivleos but it will be very short lived as Christ sets up his kingdom here on earth we will be here with him in our new incorubtable bodies (1 Cor.15) We are all changed in the twinkling of an eye and you need others mens words you only need Gods .
This is the answer to my question and is what I believe. I still do not understand why I would be treated in such a manner. Rather than erasing the question you could have simply answered. It seems we agree on the issue.QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 22 2009, 09:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69674
It was not erased it was set to invisable because of the attitude you can ask a question you can address a post but when you just single out posters with that attitude Your post will be deleted Now its not mine and Jordans view its many peoples view and there is a statement on the view of this entire site not just mine seconldly I alreadt address 1 Thess in my last post above
I did not have an attitude you must have read something into the post that wasn't there the reason I asked the two of you is because I couldn't tell where you stood on the issue.QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 22 2009, 09:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69674
It was not erased it was set to invisable because of the attitude you can ask a question you can address a post but when you just single out posters with that attitude Your post will be deleted Now its not mine and Jordans view its many peoples view and there is a statement on the view of this entire site not just mine seconldly I alreadt address 1 Thess in my last post abovehttp://www.christianityboard.com/index.php?showtopic=506
I agree we meet the Lord in the air post trib and return to earth to reign with Him during the millennium.

I do not see Thessalonians the same way you do......1 Thessalonians 4:13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope." 1 Thessalonians 4:14: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him." 1 Thessalonians 4:15: "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." 1 Thessalonians 4:16: "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." 1 Thessalonians 4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." 1 Thessalonians 4:18: "Therefore encourage each other with these words." 1 Thessalonians 5:1: "Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you," 1 Thessalonians 5:2: "for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." 1 Thessalonians 5:3: "While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape." 1 Thessalonians 5:4: "But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." 1 Thessalonians 5:5: "You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness." ... 1 Thessalonians 5:11: "Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing." In chapters 4 and 5 of 1 Thessalonians (above), Paul wanted to encourage the Christians in Thessalonica (verses 4:18 and 5:11, above) because some of them were grieving over deceased loved ones. In verse 13 (above), Paul began explaining to them about the Rapture because he didn't want them to be ignorant about what will happen to those who have died in Christ. In order to encourage them, Paul explained that the dead in Christ will be resurrected to meet Jesus in the air, and then all living Christians will be caught up to meet them in the air as well (this is the event which we refer to as "the Rapture"). Consider that if the Thessalonians had been taught that the Church will go through some or all of the seven-year Tribulation, then it would have been reasonable for them to rejoice (or at least be relieved) that their dead loved ones are with Jesus and will not have to experience that period of intense suffering. But notice that as Paul was comforting the Thessalonians over their dead loved ones, the only thing that he said to comfort them was that the deceased Christians will take part in the Rapture along with the living Christians. In other words, Paul did not point out that the dead loved ones had escaped the terrible Tribulation period, which certainly would have been a relief and a source of comfort to the Thessalonians if the Thessalonians had been taught that the Church will go through some or all of the Tribulation. There is only one view of the Rapture which is consistent with Paul's statements here, and that is the pre-trib view, which says that the Church will not go through any of the Tribulation. In verse 4:18 (above), Paul told them to comfort each other with this knowledge about the Rapture, and then Paul turned his attention to a different topic in chapter 5 (above). In chapter 5, Paul pointed out that the Thessalonians knew "very well" (or "accurately") that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night while people are saying "peace and safety". The vast majority of the "Day of the Lord" passages describe the seven-year Tribulation as a time of darkness and wrath, while some of the "Day of the Lord" passages describe the Millennium as a time of light and divine blessings. After Paul described the beginning of the Tribulation period in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 (above), Paul then said, "But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." In other words, those who are in "darkness" (all unsaved people) will be overtaken by the "darkness and wrath" of the seven-year Tribulation, but Paul pointed out that the Church is not in "darkness." Instead, Christians are all "sons of the light" (1 Thessalonians 5:5, above). This means that the "darkness" period of the Day of the Lord will not overtake the Church as a thief because we do not belong to the darkness. Since we belong to the light, we will only be overtaken by the portion of the Day of the Lord which is characterized by light (the Millennium). The unsaved people who are left behind at the pre-trib Rapture will go into the seven-year Tribulation, .... the unsaved survivors of the Tribulation will not go into the Millennium (because they belong to the darkness, they do not belong to the light). In contrast, the Church will participate in the Millennium (because we belong to the light), but we will not take part in the Tribulation period (because we do not belong to the darkness). There is only one view of the Rapture which allows for the Church to be in the Millennium but not in the Tribulation (as Paul described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:5, above), and that is the pre-trib view.

Well you can see it how ever you chose but the church was 3 weeks old at the time when Paul had to leave it was made up of Jew and gentile and they were confused and that is why 2 Thess was written and that is historical fact. The subject was where are the dead and that is a fact so see it however you want but what I said in my post is the truth. The line sets your subject those that are asleep are the dead those who have died that is the subject rightly divide the Word.They were assured the dead would raise first just as we are told at the sound of the trump what trump the last trump Gods trump that is the 7th trump the dead no not rise until Christs second coming and then they rise first .... This has nothing to do with some secret coming or pre trib rapture except in mens minds .... Its a repeat and reassurance it will happen exactly as written at the 7th trump and Christ returns .When Christ comes we will be changed 1 Cor.15 we will not die but be changed and then we may well meet Christ in the air momentarily before we return to earth ....this is no secret Rapture...All will be changedGo this link scroll down to Thess you will see it was common Knowledge Paul had to corret the early church of Thess.as it was a babe (I didnt write this )http://www.christianityboard.com/index.php?showtopic=6373

As I mentioned in my previous post...the apostle Paul had taught the Thessalonian Christians about the Rapture and the Day of the Lord. Later, however, some people went to Thessalonica and pretended that the apostle Paul had told them that the Day of the Lord had already come. This caused great alarm to the Christians in Thessalonica, so they sent a message to the apostle Paul for clarification. Here is Paul's response: 2 Thessalonians 2:1: "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers," 2 Thessalonians 2:2: "not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come." 2 Thessalonians 2:3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction." 2 Thessalonians 2:4: "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." 2 Thessalonians 2:5: "Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?" One interesting thing about this passage is that post-tribbers use it as clear evidence for a post-trib Rapture (on the day of the Second Coming of Christ after the seven-year Tribulation is over), while pre-tribbers use it as clear evidence for a pre-trib Rapture (before the seven-year Tribulation begins). Obviously these two groups cannot both be right, which means that one of these groups is making some wrong assumptions in the above passage. First we'll examine the post-trib interpretation of the above passage, and then we'll look at the pre-trib interpretation. Many people who hold the post-trib view argue that the phrase, "the Day of the Lord," is best taken to be a reference to the Second Coming of Christ (which will happen at the end of the Tribulation). Therefore, their interpretation of the above passage is essentially: "Concerning the Second Coming of Christ and our being Raptured to Him, don't be alarmed by reports which say that the day of the Lord has already come. That day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the Antichrist is revealed." If this is the proper understanding of that passage, then "that day" (the day of the Rapture, according to the post-trib view) won't come until after the Antichrist is revealed (i.e. after the Tribulation has begun). It seems clear to many post-tribbers that the Rapture will happen on the Day of the Lord, which they believe is the day of the Second Coming, and therefore they argue that this passage is teaching a post-trib Rapture. However, the post-trib interpretation of this passage is flawed because of the assumption that the Day of the Lord should be understood as the day of the Second Coming. Most of the "Day of the Lord" passages in the Bible are referring to the seven-year Tribulation period. Now, notice what happens when we paraphrase the above passage using the post-trib assumption that the Day of the Lord is the day of the Second Coming: "Concerning the Second Coming of Christ and our being Raptured to Him, don't be alarmed by reports which say that the Second Coming of Christ has already come. That day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the Antichrist is revealed." Remember, the Thessalonians were alarmed because certain people had said that the Day of the Lord had already come, so the Thessalonian Christians sent a message to the apostle Paul, and Paul replied in the passage above. Therefore, days, weeks, or months passed from the time that the Thessalonians became alarmed until the time that Paul received their message and replied back to them. Now, let's consider that fact from the post-trib viewpoint, which says that the Day of the Lord is the day of the Second Coming and the Rapture. In order for the Thessalonians to believe that the post-trib "Day of the Lord" (i.e. the Second Coming and the Rapture) had already come, the Thessalonian Christians would have to assume that they were completely unaware that the Rapture of the Church had taken place, and they would have to assume that they were completely unaware that the Second Coming of Christ to the earth had taken place! Such a situation would be impossible, because the Rapture will be worldwide in scope (involving the entire Church, including the Thessalonian Christians), and because at the Second Coming everyone in the world will see Jesus returning to the earth (Matthew 24:27-30). Not only would it be impossible for the Thessalonians to be unaware of all of those events, but also there would be no mortal apostle Paul on the earth after the Rapture for the Thessalonians to try to contact (Paul would have been immortal and with the Lord if the Rapture had already happened, as he had earlier explained to them in 1 Thessalonians 4:17). In addition, if the Second Coming had already taken place then the Thessalonian Christians would soon enter into Christ's thousand-year reign of righteousness, peace, and prosperity on the earth (the Millennium), which would not be a cause for alarm! Yet when the Thessalonians were told that the Day of the Lord had already come, they became alarmed, which indicates that there was enough evidence to convince them that this report might actually be true. But if the Day of the Lord is the day of the Second Coming and the Rapture (as post-tribbers believe), notice that there was not any evidence that the Rapture or the Second Coming had already happened (because those events are still in the future). After all, none of the Christians in Thessalonica had vanished, and Christ had not descended to the earth in full view of the world, so the Thessalonians had no evidence and no reason to believe the false reports (based on the post-trib interpretation of the above passage). The post-trib interpretation of this passage results in an unrealistic and impossible situation, and the reason is because of the erroneous assumption that the Day of the Lord is equivalent to the day of the Second Coming and the Rapture. Pre-tribbers and post-tribbers both use this passage to support their views, but they can't both be right. One of these groups is making some wrong assumptions in the above passage. I will post the pre-trib view later...

Believe what ever you like but its not true you interpt it to mean what you chose and because you do your interptation is wrong it does not say that period it says the gathering is not until after the man of sin antichrist that only doesnt make sense to you because you refuse to get precept upon precept of the events of the tribulation that fact it doesnt make sense to you means nothing if Gods says its after its after

Now let's look at the above passage from the pre-trib perspective. Here are the facts according to the pre-trib view: Jesus will come for the Church and will "snatch" us up to meet Him in the clouds, and then He will take us back into heaven. This event is the Rapture, There are reasons why Jesus will take us back into heaven after the Rapture. Then some time will pass (seconds, days, months, or years) before the Tribulation begins when Israel signs a seven-year peace treaty with the Antichrist. The Tribulation period is the "darkness and wrath" portion of the Day of the Lord during which there will also be a horrific persecution of the saints. At the end of the seven-year Tribulation, Jesus will return to the earth (the Second Coming of Christ). Paul had taught the Thessalonians that the Rapture will take place before the seven-year Tribulation begins (as we saw in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:5). With these concepts in mind, here is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 (above) paraphrased according to the pre-trib view: "Concerning Jesus' coming for the Church and our being Raptured to Him, don't be alarmed by reports which say that the seven-year Tribulation has already begun, because the Tribulation (the Day of the Lord) will not begin until the rebellion occurs and the Antichrist is revealed. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?" Recall that in the previous section we saw why pre-tribbers believe that the apostle Paul had taught the Thessalonians about a pre-trib Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:5). If Paul had taught the pre-trib Rapture view to the church at Thessalonica, then it would be reasonable for the Thessalonian Christians to become alarmed when they were told that the Tribulation had already begun. This information would have contradicted what Paul had earlier taught them, and so they would have urgently contacted Paul for a clarification. Since this false information was not what Paul had taught the Thessalonian Christians, Paul would have defended his teachings when he wrote back to the Thessalonians. This situation is exactly what we see in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 ), which is why Paul said, "Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?" (2 Thessalonians 2:5). In fact, when the Thessalonian Christians were given a false report that the Day of the Lord (the seven-year Tribulation period) had already begun, there was evidence which convinced the Thessalonians that this report might be true, which is why they became alarmed. For example, in the context of the end-times and the Tribulation period, Jesus said, "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death" (Matthew 24:3-16). There will be a great persecution of the saints in the early stages of the Tribulation, and notice that the Thessalonian Christians were experiencing "persecutions and trials": 2 Thessalonians 1:4: "Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring." ... 2 Thessalonians 1:11: "With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith." 2 Thessalonians 1:12: "We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thessalonians 2:1: "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers," Notice that just before the apostle Paul began to comfort the Thessalonians concerning the Day of the Lord, he specifically mentioned the persecutions which they were experiencing. Since persecutions of saints will take place during the beginning of the Tribulation, the Thessalonians had evidence which appeared to support the false claim that the Tribulation had already begun. When we properly recognize that "the Day of the Lord" is most often used in the Bible to refer to the seven-year Tribulation period, the pre-trib view is the only view of the Rapture which results in a consistent and reasonable interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 (above).

This all garbage sorry to say setfree but nothing you have said is true none of your events are in the right order you just speculating and trying make scripture fit your speculations believe what you like but dont mislead people that this is scripture its just your opinion and the facts of the Word do not back it up. I find it amazing you quote you "dont know if you believe rapture" you were taught wrong yet you continue to go on and on as if you got it all figured out ...yet it does not fit scripture and no matter what anyone says you keep going back to the same place you started and then say you havent got it figured out maybe you should listen to God and stop going back to men

QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 22 2009, 10:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69690
This all garbage sorry to say setfree but nothing you have said is true none of your events are in the right order you just speculating and trying make scripture fit your speculations believe what you like but dont mislead people that this is scripture its just your opinion and the facts of the Word do not back it up
So share the right order...how do they not back up the scripture?

QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 22 2009, 06:20 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69669
All that follow a fake christ and his lie and deceit will perish ... because they believed the lie that the one who comes first is the wrong christ they did not love their father enought to read his words they loved the lie Rapture is a big part of this lie it keeps people from understanding that Antichrist the man of sin comes before Christ instead they are told you dont need to learn this you are just magically gonna fly out of here ... God never says it ...its never written... God says flesh ans Blood can not enter heaven so they can not be flown to heven ... The air is ruled by Satan ..he is the prince of the air so tyou dont want to go there so where is it these Rapture people think they are going ...answer no where they will be right here on earth and if they dont follow the first fake christ God will protect them as he did on that Passover day in Eygpt .. Trust your father do not believe mens lies do not be fooled as the church in Thess was in 1 thess. hear your fathers promise to you ... Have no fear have faith in him not men
True anyone that does not accept Jesus as there Lord and Savior will perish....Not magically fly...by the same power that resurrected JesusThe way I understand it is our bodies will be changed.Rapture does not create fear...Can you explain when the judgement seat of Christ is?Can you explain when the wedding is going to take place?

You wont listen anyway you been shown till I m blue in the face for years you ignore everything and go right back where you started and wonder why you have questions it never says Jesus will come for the church anywhere other than the End at the 7th trump show me one place it says any different ...It doesnt he comes once at the trump the 7th trump the End that is the only time and at that time the dead are raised first we are changed and will meet him momentarily as he comes to earth to set up his kingdom that is scripture. And know where does it say different You never answer a question you never ask yourself the right questions you just keep going back to where you started you never hear you never listen So believe what you like thats what your going to do anyway its what you always do so be my guest... believe what suits you. Heres another short study that shows you http://www.biblicalrapture.net/as-a-thief.html

QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 21 2009, 01:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69596
The tares are gatherd first not the faithful I dont normally give Rapture supporting sites as referance but even A good Rature supporting sites understand the two in the field is not talking about Rapture and we are not to be the first gathered http://zile.org/otol.htmlAs I have said and has never been shown there is no Raoture written in scripture there never was is called Rapture theroy because that all it is a Theroy created by men... Even if you chose to believe it is not written in the Bible
Where did I mention "rapture"? I believe in a SECOND coming(not a third) where Jesus calls us into the air and we circle the entire globe and every eye sees him. One that victory progression takes place Jesus then land on earth bring us with him. This postion is the only one that accounts for all the prophecies concerning his second coming. Chris you are also making a direct statement without dealing with the definitions I presented for the words "taken" and "left"If the greek words for "taken" mean to "receive by intimate action" and the word for "left" means to be "forsaken" how can your interpretation possibly be true?

QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 22 2009, 10:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69693
You wont listen anyway you been shown till I m blue in the face for years you ignore everything and go right back where you started and wonder why you have questions it never says Jesus will come for the church anywhere other than the End at the 7th trump show me one place it says any different ...It doesnt he comes once at the trump the 7th trump the End that is the only time and at that time the dead are raised first we are changed and will meet him momentarily as he comes to earth to set up his kingdom that is scripture. And know where does it say different You never answer a question you never ask yourself the right questions you just keep going back to where you started you never hear you never listen So believe what you like thats what your going to do anyway its what you always do so be my guest... believe what suits you. Heres another short study that shows you http://www.biblicalrapture.net/as-a-thief.html
I have been down this road to many times with you Christina....so you can believe as you wish. If you believe you have helped me all you can..so be it. Someone else might be able with scriptures to show what I posted is wrong.Seems like there is a lot of assumption about the Last trumpet being the 7th trumpet......"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52) But do we know all we need to know about the trumpets...before we make that assumption.Throughout history, armies have used trumpets to signal "Advance," "Retreat," "Commence Firing," "Cease Firing," "Assemble," "Recall," and so on. The ancient Jews also used trumpets in battle and for assembling.(Numbers 10:1-9) (Judges 6:33-35) (2 Samuel 2:26-28) (2 Samuel 18:16) (2 Samuel 20:22) Trumpets were also used by the Jews for rejoicing and praising the Lord, as in the Feast of Tabernacles and the Feast of Trumpets: "Every morning of the feast [of Tabernacles] there was a joyous procession to the Pool of Siloam, with music, headed by a priest with a golden pitcher (a little over 2 pints). At the same time there was a procession to the Kidron Valley to collect willow branches which were made into a canopy over the altar of burnt offerings. As the sacrifice proceeded, the priest returning with the water entered through the Water Gate (named for this event). With a threefold trumpet blast he poured the water into a silver receptacle on the altar. ... At the end of the first day of Tabernacles, the worshippers congregated in the Court of Women where a great illumination took place. Four huge golden lamps or candelabras, each with four golden bowls were filled with oil by four youths of priestly descent. They had to use four ladders for this task. According to the saying, "There was not a court in Jerusalem that was not lit up by it". Around the lamps a sacred dance was conducted by hassidim (saints) and prominent leaders with flaming torches in their hands. This was accompanied by Levites playing harps, lutes, cymbals, trumpets and "instruments without number" standing on the fifteen steps leading up from the Court of Women to the Court of Israel, according to the "songs of Degrees" in Psalms." (Sukkot - the Feast of Tabernacles , emphasis added) ""Say to the Israelites: 'On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts [the Feast of Trumpets]. Do no regular work, but present an offering made to the LORD by fire.'" The LORD said to Moses, "The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves, and present an offering made to the LORD by fire."" (Leviticus 23:24-27) "Also at your times of rejoicing--your appointed feasts and New Moon festivals--you are to sound the trumpets over your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, and they will be a memorial for you before your God. I am the LORD your God." (Numbers 10:10) As we can see, the first-century Romans and Jews used trumpet blasts for a variety of purposes. When the apostle Paul wrote to the Christians in Thessalonica, he described the Rapture in this way: "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) Bible scholars and teachers have pointed out the "military" nature of Paul's description (above). Notice that there will be a loud command, then there will be the voice of the archangel, then there will be a trumpet call, and then all Christians will rise to meet the Lord in the air. The "military" analogy here is that the General gives a command during the battle (such as the command to "Recall" or to "Assemble"), then the command is repeated by an officer, then the bugler blows the signal (a specific series of notes), then the troops respond to the signal by assembling back to camp, or by returning home (as in 2 Samuel 20:22, above), or whatever the command may have been. One question to keep in mind while I am sharing information about the trumpets...Did the Thessalonians or Corinthians understand the 7th trumpet in Revelations at this time. Rev. was written later, wasn't it?

As I am sure most of you know I have been over the past few days very thoughtful and curious about this subject and finally after doing my own research I have come to one final opinion of my own, based on my own studies . You have all helped a lot but I finally have to come to the point that I say I believe in the rapture.QUOTE (shutin45 @ Feb 22 2009, 08:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69663
I still suggest that anyone who wants to know the Truth should visit those websites as part of their search.Don't assume it's all for money or "Christian political correctness". They are not doing what they're "told". They routinely say things that are VERY politically incorrect and that don't sit well with powers in this world possibly far more detrimental to them than the mainstream Christian community. They have weighed and studied the Scriptures for YEARS to reach the conclusions they have reached. Just like debates/discussions with others here, there's nothing wrong, and possibly much to be gained - Rapture and other Prophecies - from reading what they have to say. Which again is based on and accompanied by pertinent Scriptural references.The Rapture is in Gods word. The specific word itself isn't, but it's the term used for when Christians are taken away mentioned in Matthew 24:40 and 41 and non-Christians are left behind. WHENEVER - pre or post tribulation - that is. Like Setfree, I want to know the Truth whatever it is, and if you have some websites like those, but from other renowned and Anointed Ministers who have a post-trib Rapture viewpoint and supporting Scriptural references, I'll gladly visit them and read/hear what they have to say. It's not like either viewpoint is evil.Like the Romans 14 reference I've mentioned before says, there are minor differerences in beliefs that Christians will have, and Paul gives guidance from God there on how we should deal with such.
Conserning Matther 24, you should not take out of context the verses 40 + 41, as you should read the piece like this 39 - 41: "39yet they did not realize what was happening until the flood came and swept them all away. That is how it will be when the Son of Man comes. 40AT THAT TIME two men will be working in a field: one will be taken away, the other will be left behind. 41Two women will be at the mill grinding meal: one will be taken away, the other will be left behind."In otherwords when Jesus comes he will take away his chosen people, if you actually go back to Matthew 24:30 - 31 you can read: "30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear IN THE SKY; and all the peoples of earth will weep as they see the Son of Man COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN with power and great glory. 31The great trumpet will sound, and he will send out his angels to the four corners of the earth, and they will gather his chosen people from one end of the world to the other."So it says that Jesus will appear in the sky and gather his chosen people to him.Then we skip forward to Revelation 6:9-17 to read: "Then the lamb broke open the fifth seal. I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because they had proclaimed God's word and had been faithful in their witnessing. 10They shouted out in a loud voice, "Almighty Lord, holy and true! How long will it be until you judge the people on earth and punish them for killing us?" 11Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the complete number of their fellow-Christians had been killed, as they had been. 12 And I saw the Lamb break open the sixth seal. There was a violent earthquake, and the sun became black like coarse black cloth, and the moon turned completely red like blood. 13The stars fell down to earth, like unripe figs falling from the tree when a strong wind shakes it. 14The sky disappeared like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. 15Then THE KINGS OF THE EARTH, THE RULERS AND THE MILITARY CHIEFS, THE RICH AND THE POWERFUL, AND ALL OTHER PEOPLE, SLAVE AND FREE, hid themselves in caves and under rocks on the mountains. 16They called out to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the eyes of the one who sits on the throne and from the anger of the Lamb! 17The terrible day of thier anger(some versions say wrath), and who can stand against it?""Now as it says here all the people of the earth hide and await the wrath of the lamb, however if that were the case then all christians would be hiding scared of THEIR saviour, they would be fearful of the wrath that they are supposed to have been saved from. Now if we go back to the previous scripture from Matthew it suggests that all Christians will be removed from earth BEFORE the wrath and anger comes, infact as soon as Jesus arrives they will be gathered away safe from the wrath.I'm sorry to those who believe otherwise but I have to stick with my previous statement and say that I believe in the Rapture, I will not try to convert others to my way of thought but this is what I have come upon after my OWN study.Thanks for reading,NL

I am glad you have decided what you believe about the rapture...I have been back and forth on this for two years. I lean more toward the pre-trib rapture...But I am always open to new insight, incase I am wrong.In Matthew 24:37-42, Luke 17:26-37... "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come." (Matthew 24:37-42) "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. Remember Lot's wife! Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left." "Where, Lord?" they asked. He replied, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather."" (Luke 17:26-37) In these passages, Jesus compared the day of His coming with the days of Noah and Lot. Some people assume that these passages are describing the Rapture (because one person will be "taken" and another person will be left behind), but this is unlikely based on the evidence in these passages. For example, in the two other parables in (Matthew 13:24-43 and 47-50), all of the unrighteous survivors of the Tribulation will be "taken" in judgment (through death) after the Second Coming. In addition, (Matthew 25:31-46) describes the Sheep and Goats Judgment, which is where all of the unrighteous survivors of the Tribulation will be killed after the Second Coming. All of those passages tell us that the unrighteous people will be "taken" in judgment by being killed after the Second Coming, and the righteous survivors of the Tribulation will be left behind on earth. This is exactly what Jesus described in the passages above when He compared the Second Coming with the days of Noah and Lot. Notice that in the context of the Matthew passage (Matthew 24:37-42), Jesus had referred to the Second Coming twice (Matthew 24:27 and 30), and in the context of the Luke passage (Luke 17:26-37, above), Jesus had referred to the Second Coming once (compare Luke 17:23-24 with Matthew 24:26-27). In this context concerning the Second Coming, Jesus said that the events at the time of His coming will be the same as the events in the days of Noah and Lot (Matthew 24:37 and Luke 17:26, 28, above). Then Jesus emphasized this point by repeating it (Matthew 24:39 and Luke 17:30, above). How will they be the same? In the Matthew passage (Matthew 24:37-42, above), we can see several ways in which the events at the Second Coming will be the same as the events in Noah's day: 1.)The unrighteous people in Noah's time ignored any forewarnings of the coming judgment. Instead, they focused on the activities of daily living rather than preparing themselves for the coming judgment by receiving righteousness through faith. The analogy is that the unrighteous people during the Tribulation will ignore the signs of the coming judgment. Instead, they will be focused on the activities of daily living rather than preparing themselves for the coming judgment by receiving salvation. 2.)The unrighteous people in Noah's time did not know when the judgment (the Flood) would begin, and therefore the judgment fell on them so suddenly that they did not have time to do anything to escape their fate. The analogy is that the unrighteous people during the Tribulation will not know when the judgment (the Second Coming) will come, and therefore it will fall on them so suddenly that they will not have time to do anything to escape their fate. 3.)The unrighteous people in Noah's time were all "taken" in judgment through death, and the righteous people (Noah and his family) were left behind to re-populate the earth during the next phase of world history. For example, even though sailors are on top of the water in their ships, they are still considered to be on the earth (they are not considered to be "Raptured"). In a similar way, Noah and his family were on top of the water in the ark, but they were still on the earth. They were not "Raptured." The analogy is that after the Second Coming, all of the unrighteous survivors of the Tribulation will be "taken" in judgment through death, and the righteous survivors of the Tribulation will be left behind to re-populate the earth during the next phase of world history (the Millennium). So Jesus said that the events at the time of the Second Coming will be the same as the events at the time of Noah, and Jesus specifically said that those who were "taken" in Noah's time were the unrighteous people who were all killed in judgment (Matthew 24:39, above). In the same way, the unrighteous survivors of the Tribulation will be "taken" in judgment after the Second Coming by being killed (at the Sheep and Goats Judgment, I shared in another post). Just as the righteous people in Noah's time (Noah and his family) were left behind to re-populate the earth, the righteous survivors of the Tribulation will be left behind after the Sheep and Goats Judgment (after the Second Coming) to re-populate the earth during the Millennium. Just as the Flood happened suddenly and unexpectedly for the unrighteous people in Noah's time, the Second Coming will happen suddenly and unexpectedly for many people during the Tribulation, and therefore Jesus urged people to "keep watch" and be prepared (Matthew 24:42, above). So I do not see where you get rapture from these scriptures?

QUOTE (Denver @ Feb 23 2009, 10:51 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69720
(This is the same mystery that Paul spoke of in his writing, particularly in I Corinthians 15:51-25, clearly.) Please read Revelation 9, but it clearly denotes that there are a total of 7 trumpet blasts from the angels. When I picked it up in Revelation 10:7, the seventh was about to sound but we were in the 6th. The 6th is where it talks about Satan aka the antichrist/beast/etc. falling from heaven (along with the stars) and then him coming to Earth. Let's pick up the 7th and final trump and see how it compares to the final trump that we have seen above:
In 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, the apostle Paul seems to be describing the Rapture: "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52) In the above passage, the apostle Paul said that the Rapture will happen "at the last trumpet," but notice that he did not explain what he meant by "the last trumpet." Since Paul didn't feel that it was necessary to explain this, then either he had already said something to the Corinthians about it, or else he was referring to something which they were already familiar with. In the previous chapter of 1 Corinthians, Paul had used the imagery of military trumpet signals when he said, "if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?" (1 Corinthians 14:8). In battle, the first set of trumpet signals would be the call to arms (as in 1 Corinthians 14:8), and the last set of trumpet signals would be to signal the "Recall" or the "Assembly" when the battle is over. Since the Bible says that Christians are currently engaged in battle against the devil and his forces (see for example Ephesians 6:10-18, 1 Peter 5:8-9, Philippians 2:25, 2 Timothy 2:3-4, Philemon 1:2, 2 Corinthians 6:7, 10:3-4, 1 Timothy 1:18), it wouldn't be unreasonable if there is a "call to Assemble" when the Church's time of battle is through. When our Sovereign issues the command, and the command is repeated by the archangel, and the trumpet signal is given, we will be recalled and assembled with the Lord and then we will be taken Home (again there are several reasons why we will be taken back into heaven after the Rapture). According to the pre-trib view, the spiritual battle will still be raging down on earth, but the Church will not be involved in the earthly battle after we are Raptured. For example, the Bible says that it will be Jesus alone who defeats the Antichrist and his armies (see Revelation 19:15, 21, Isaiah 34:2, 63:4-6). Since the Jews and the Romans commonly used trumpet signals in this way in battle in the first century, this would explain why the apostle Paul didn't need to elaborate on what he meant by "at the last trumpet." This interpretation of "at the last trumpet" is perfectly compatible with the pre-trib view, the post-trib view, and all of the various mid-trib views, because the expression, "the last trumpet," can mean either "the last blast in a series of trumpet blasts" or else it can mean "the last trumpet signal at the end of the battle." It is possible for either of these things to happen before the Tribulation begins, or during the Tribulation, or after the Tribulation ends, and therefore this interpretation of "at the last trumpet" is compatible with all views of the timing of the Rapture. It is also possible for the expression, "the last trumpet," to have the meaning of "the last trumpet ever," but this would create a contradiction in Scripture. The reason is because Zechariah 14:16-19 says that the Feast of Tabernacles will be celebrated during the Millennium, and there are trumpets associated with that Feast. Therefore, if we interpret "at the last trumpet" as meaning, "at the last trumpet ever," then we would be placing the Rapture at the end of Christ's thousand-year reign on earth, which Scripture does not support. Therefore, "the last trumpet" does not mean "the last trumpet ever." Instead, it means "the last blast in a series of trumpet blasts," or else it means "the last trumpet signal at the end of the battle," both of which are perfectly compatible with any view of the Rapture which we choose to believe.

Ok but I am going to stick with my findings and belief in the rapture, and I would prefer if you would stop trying prove me wrong because I have made up my mind on my own from my own study.But why are we all arguing about this? Surely if we are all devote then when the time comes we will all find out whether God will take us up or whether he will come down. I believe that there are much more pressing matters that we should discuss like world poverty and things, why not have a discussion about something that matters rather than trying to convince each other of our own ways of thinking.I am sorry if this sounds harsh but I feel we are discussing a topic that has no reason as people who believe in rapture will continue to believe in rapture, and people who don't believe in rapture will probably continue to believe that.

QUOTE (Denver @ Feb 23 2009, 11:23 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69722
Hence the reason I specifically identified the mystery that was spoken of both in Revelation 10:7 and I Corinthians 15:52. This links the two to clearly be one in the same as far as trumpet blasts. Saying that it could be any series of trumpet blasts assumes the lack of these other verses to explain it; in this case I think I've demonstrated that all of them share a final (in one case 7/7 trump -- final, specific, and numeric) where Christ returns. Again, go back to the verses using the singular coming of Christ; we have a final trump where Christ returns in every instance. There's no Scriptural basis for multiple sets of trumpets, as one would really be leaning on man's attempt to make it work. When you couple that with the link that Rev. 10:7 and I Cor 15:52 establish, I really don't see room for the idea. This is the culminate of a very specific set of trumps.And as a bit of a digression, setfree, let me say that I at least appreciate that you're open to being wrong (as am I, I try to be, but this topic does concern me because I fear some won't wake up when the time comes and won't be able to identify who is who, initially) and most importantly open to and listening to the Scripture to the best of your ability. That speaks for itself, and that's when we'll all do the best regardless of who is right and who is wrong.
So are you saying the mystery in Rev. 10:7 is the same as 1 Corinthians 15:51-52? This is something new to me..so I will have to look into it....QUOTE (Nivleos @ Feb 23 2009, 11:39 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69725
Ok but I am going to stick with my findings and belief in the rapture, and I would prefer if you would stop trying prove me wrong because I have made up my mind on my own from my own study.But why are we all arguing about this? Surely if we are all devote then when the time comes we will all find out whether God will take us up or whether he will come down. I believe that there are much more pressing matters that we should discuss like world poverty and things, why not have a discussion about something that matters rather than trying to convince each other of our own ways of thinking.I am sorry if this sounds harsh but I feel we are discussing a topic that has no reason as people who believe in rapture will continue to believe in rapture, and people who don't believe in rapture will probably continue to believe that.
Nivleos, please do not get offended by someone sharing their views. It is not to prove anyone wrong...I think we all want to know truth. I have changed many things by discussing them! Some people can come across rude, but do not let Satan get a foothold by taken offense to it.Some are led to do other things than discuss scripture...everyones journey is different.