The story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable; but even if it is, I am interested in knowing what "I am in torments in this flame" represents; for in a parable everything in it is representative of a specific truth.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?
- Thread starter Hobie
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Many people never read these supporting verses, especially in the OT, and apparently of those who do read them the simplest of possible meanings go right over their heads unless it easily fits into what has already been decided by them or by their leadership. What is blindness?
Even so! And when a person is really seeking the Life which Jesus brought he must use the means God has provided to kill that lower animal 'life' in himself, which in a man is opposed to the real Life:
"She [Wisdom] hath killed her beasts [lower animal life] ; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:2
This is what one is doing when he is overcoming the world so as to partake of the Tree of Life and really never die...
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7
Last edited:
Sadly, his Soul is slowly being destroyed until all is left is his Spirit...
Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"
Speaking of a Soul being destroyed...
This is what the role of the Destroyer does...
Revelation 9:11
"And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon"
Apollyon is actually a 'Good Guy' character in the Bible in that his job is to destroy the Souls of the wicked. He works with God to perform this duty.
As a side note, Apollyon is also the 'Restrainer' that keeps the wicked from climbing back out of the Pit...
2 Thessalonians 2:7
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way"
Many Christians believe that the Restrainer is the Holy Ghost which is incorrect as God will pour out His Spirit in the Last Days...
Acts 2:17
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams"
Once Apollyon is taken out of the way, the Beast can escape...
Revelation 17:8
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is"
This is what the role of the Destroyer does...
Revelation 9:11
"And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon"
Apollyon is actually a 'Good Guy' character in the Bible in that his job is to destroy the Souls of the wicked. He works with God to perform this duty.
As a side note, Apollyon is also the 'Restrainer' that keeps the wicked from climbing back out of the Pit...
2 Thessalonians 2:7
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way"
Many Christians believe that the Restrainer is the Holy Ghost which is incorrect as God will pour out His Spirit in the Last Days...
Acts 2:17
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams"
Once Apollyon is taken out of the way, the Beast can escape...
Revelation 17:8
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is"
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
You say cults caused the word perish to mean annihilation, but perhaps what you call a cult God doesn't. They called Jesus Christ the ruler of the demons did they not so they considered his Apostles and disciples just as bad right? Does that mean those people were right in making such judgments of them? I suggest that when it comes to your beliefs or how you reason on the scriptures not to think that you are infallible and therefore can't be wrong in what you believe or how you reason on the scriptures. Don't judge, none of us are infallible, only God is. I can understand disagreeing but we can do that respectfully.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
One thing I've never believed in or even found in the scriptures is that eternal life to be a punishment. From what I've found in the scriptures eternal life was always a reward for the faithful or who God judged as righteous. For a person to be burned in hell by fire while still being conscious, therefore feeling the pain of said fire, that means they're alive that they have life. Since most people believe that person's undergoing this form of punishment is eternal they are saying that eternal life is being given to the unfaithful or the unrighteous. As I said I've never seen in the scriptures where eternal life is a form of punishment or being given to the unfaithful. What's wrong with us humans that we must believe that the True God gets off on torture, and I do mean gets off. Why do I say that? Because I know for a fact that what the True God has called into existence he can destroy out of existence. So that means I need only ask myself two questions. Is the True God a person who when it comes to those he has judged to be unrighteous want to punish them by sending them somewhere to literally burn and feel the pain that comes with such burning for eternity or is he a person who would simply deny them eternal life and destroy them out of existence since he does have that kind of power. If person's such as Satan and his demons and all the humans who followed him are destroyed out of existence how can they influence or harm anyone, they wouldn't be able to if they don't exist. I honestly believe the True God will destroyed evil out of existence.
Last edited:
I would like to offer my opinion on the above. I will keep it simple.
Scripture often teaches us that the Dead are sleeping...
John 11:11
"These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep"
John 11:14
"Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead"
So how can the Rich Man be in Torments if he is sleeping? And how can there be communication happening?
What do folks do when they are asleep?
Genesis 31:11
"And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I"
They dream.
Thus...
Abraham's Bosom = Peaceful Dream
Torments = Nightmare
Imagine a nightmare you can't wake from.
That is what Hell is like.
Hobie,
Your thread nicely complements David's thread on universalism and most of my replies will be found there. For your thread, I initially want to draw attention to 4 points:
(1) God wants Job to ponder the answer to this question: "Shall mortal man be more just than God (Job 4:17--KJV)?" Even as God is more loving than we are, He is also more just. What is the relevance of that insight to a belief in eternal conscious torment?
(2) OT scholars agree that OT text translated "Hell" in the OT are a mistranslation of the Hebrew "Sheol," which the Jews do not consider a realm of postmortem conscious survival, despite the witch of Endor story. Only late in OT history does the concept of postmortem survival clearly emerge and only in Daniel 12:2-3).
(3) In both Hebrew ("olam") and Greek ("aionios") the word translated "eternal" does not, strictly speaking, mean that. "Olam" means "for a long time" and "aionios" means "age long." So it is possible to ask what happens after one's olam an aionios fate is completed.
(4) Are you aware of all the NT texts that imply the possibility of ultimate release from Hell? I will be discussing those in the universalism thread.
Your thread nicely complements David's thread on universalism and most of my replies will be found there. For your thread, I initially want to draw attention to 4 points:
(1) God wants Job to ponder the answer to this question: "Shall mortal man be more just than God (Job 4:17--KJV)?" Even as God is more loving than we are, He is also more just. What is the relevance of that insight to a belief in eternal conscious torment?
(2) OT scholars agree that OT text translated "Hell" in the OT are a mistranslation of the Hebrew "Sheol," which the Jews do not consider a realm of postmortem conscious survival, despite the witch of Endor story. Only late in OT history does the concept of postmortem survival clearly emerge and only in Daniel 12:2-3).
(3) In both Hebrew ("olam") and Greek ("aionios") the word translated "eternal" does not, strictly speaking, mean that. "Olam" means "for a long time" and "aionios" means "age long." So it is possible to ask what happens after one's olam an aionios fate is completed.
(4) Are you aware of all the NT texts that imply the possibility of ultimate release from Hell? I will be discussing those in the universalism thread.
Last edited:
I would like to point out the words 'likewise' and 'but now' in the following verse...
Luke 16:25
"But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented"
Jesus is teaching something incredibly profound, yet it goes over most everyone's heads.
The use of the word 'likewise' is teaching us that the Rich Man will receive the exact same evil as Lazarus.
How can the Rich Man receive the same evil as Lazarus if he doesn't have flesh?
John 3:7
"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again"
Luke 16:25
"But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented"
Jesus is teaching something incredibly profound, yet it goes over most everyone's heads.
The use of the word 'likewise' is teaching us that the Rich Man will receive the exact same evil as Lazarus.
How can the Rich Man receive the same evil as Lazarus if he doesn't have flesh?
John 3:7
"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again"
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
The dead both righteous and unrighteous will be awakened from this sleep. It's called the Resurrection. So if for the unrighteous hell is like a nightmare why would God wake them up from the nightmare since God is the one who judged them worthy of this nightmare which is suppose to be a eternal nightmare. Is there something wrong with God judgement that he would resurrect the unrighteous to correct something?
This is a classic example of re-writing the Bible because of a lack of understanding.
Eternal means 'never ending' as it should. No need to change it.
Here is the problem Christians seem to have with that word...
They aren't interpreting the Bible via the lens of 'God is Love', but rather doing the opposite.
Here is an example...
Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal"
There are two ways to interpret the underlined...
1) The Unsaved will be in constant torment forever and ever suffering eternally.
2) The Unsaved will receive a sentence that is permanent... ie... eternal.
The answer is #2.
Everlasting Punishment simply means a permanent sentence, similar to what a Judge would hand out to someone on Death Row.
In other words, there is no bail, no parole, etc. It is an Eternal Punishment. No going back and no changing One's mind.
Another example...
Little Johnny receives an allowance every week. One day Johnny was a bad boy and gets his allowance taken away for two weeks.
This is called a TEMPORARY PUNISHMENT.
A month later, Johnny was a really bad boy... so bad his parents took his allowance away for all of eternity.
This is called an ETERNAL PUNISHMENT.
Please note that in neither scenario is Little Johnny mercilessly beaten, whipped and tormented. Especially not 'forever and ever'.
Agreed.
Ouch! I have an issue with the bolded above.
I do not believe that the nightmare (Torments) will be eternal, just like I don't believe that the dream (Abraham's Bosom) will be eternal.
Both are temporary states until Resurrection Day.
Excellent question!
There is nothing wrong with God's judgment, however... yes, the Unrighteous need to and will be corrected. That is where the Lake of Fire comes in.
As I pointed out earlier in the thread, those cast into the Lake of Fire pass *through* it as per Scripture...
Leviticus 18:21
"And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD"
Where do they end up?
Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"
God is Love.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Myself I believe the Lazarus rich man story to be a parable. A picture story. I don't believe Jesus was being literal when he told this story to the Jews around him. Think about it the rich man was asking father Abraham to send Lazarus with a drop of water to ease his pain which actually would evaporate in such heat before getting to the rich man. Also isn't it possible that Jesus was talking about two classes of people. Why wasn't the rich man given a personal name. The beggar had a personal name, it was Lazarus. Could it be that because the name Lazarus is a common name in Israel it would accurately represent the common Jews. Going along with this train of thought couldn't the the rich man represent a class of people say like the Pharisees, they hated the common Jews much like a rich man looks down on a poor man. Also if I understand it right the Pharisees were there listening .
Interesting! I've never contemplated this before.
My first thought is this...
Those that enter Heaven, keep their identity.
Those that don't, lose their identity.
This would fall in line with my belief that the Soul is where most of our own personal identity lies.
And so the name of the game is to preserve it...
Psalms 86:2
"Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee"
Psalms 121:7
"The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul"
Those tossed into the Lake of Fire lose their Soul, thus lose their identity.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Again I ask the question why would God resurrect the unrighteous if they're sleeping and having a eternal nightmare and you using the lake of fire don't cut it, it's simply called the second death, as you said they are sleeping in death so why would God resurrect the unrighteous just to throw them in the lake of fire which is the second death which means the nightmare begins again right. The scriptures show that when the unrighteous are resurrected they are judged right. So what's wrong with the first judgement when they originally died from old age or whatever and God judged them worthy of this nightmare. Why would God resurrect them to just continue the nightmare again? As I've asked what's wrong with God's first judgement if this is what you think might possibly be true, that the unrighteous are having a nightmare.
No. The Second Death is the complete destruction of the Soul. The nightmare ends at that point...
Zechariah 13:9
"And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God"
Once the unsaved pass through the Lake of Fire, the Spirit still remains. Note that the Spirit is just a 'blank slate' at that point. Think of a Hard Drive that has been erased and reformatted... ready for new info.
God must now do something with that Spirit....
Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"
They receive another body... another chance.
God is Love.
The wool has been pulled over the Christian's eyes by Satan.
All I'm trying to do is get them seeing again. Cognitive Dissonance is their stumbling block.
Behold...
Hell is a parable for the Womb...
Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"
We all know that the 'Lowest Parts of the Earth' is Hell, yet the verse clearly states that Hell is where babies come from.
OK?
Now connect the above verse with this one...
Ephesians 4:9
"Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"
Oops!
See the problem?
You folks are taught Jesus went to Hell... as in some burning place of torment.
The Truth is that Jesus descended into Mary's Womb... aka... 'Lower Parts of the Earth'.
Get it? This is the wool pulled over your eyes.
Jesus descended into the Lower Parts of the Earth...
John 3:13
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven"
John 6:38
"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me"
All I'm trying to do is get them seeing again. Cognitive Dissonance is their stumbling block.
Behold...
Hell is a parable for the Womb...
Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"
We all know that the 'Lowest Parts of the Earth' is Hell, yet the verse clearly states that Hell is where babies come from.
OK?
Now connect the above verse with this one...
Ephesians 4:9
"Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"
Oops!
See the problem?
You folks are taught Jesus went to Hell... as in some burning place of torment.
The Truth is that Jesus descended into Mary's Womb... aka... 'Lower Parts of the Earth'.
Get it? This is the wool pulled over your eyes.
Jesus descended into the Lower Parts of the Earth...
John 3:13
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven"
John 6:38
"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me"
Except the nature of the punishment meted out is spoken of in Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50...a "furnace of fire" where there will be "wailing and gnashing of teeth."...i.e. conscious eternal torment.
Similar threads
