2 Corinthians 12:7 KJB - "thorn in the flesh"

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Ezra

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looks like if all your prayers are answered you can put the hospitals and funeral homes out of business none of your family will die .just command long extended life. i pray every day for my family to take of my family to make a way for us.. it may be by the skin of our teeth but we make it
 

CharismaticLady

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looks like if all your prayers are answered you can put the hospitals and funeral homes out of business none of your family will die .just command long extended life. i pray every day for my family to take of my family to make a way for us.. it may be by the skin of our teeth but we make it

My prayers are answered only because I never say my own words. I only wait and listen and then pray what God tells me to pray, and because it is His will, they are immediately answered. But, as I told you, that has never happened regarding healing. I don't know much about healing, I just saw that it was through my friend commanding my healing that I experienced a healing. If you are mocking me by telling me to go to hospitals, please know that I thought you were serious and cared to help your friend, and I gave you all the scriptures I could find on commanding healing. All I know is you must be born again first. Because I wasn't born again and filled with the Spirit for the first 30 years of my life, even though I went to church makes me fear for many in the church who are lukewarm and God will spew them out of His mouth. That's all I have to say. Except, I do hope you are or will become born again and command your friend's healing before it is too late.
 
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Ezra

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Because I wasn't born again and filled with the Spirit for the first 30 years of my life
that only made you Lost .it is you who says your prayers are answered
I do hope you are or will become born again
i can assure you/me any one i am born again i have a know so salvation i have life insurance through assurance .to be honest your command healing i have doubts on
 

CharismaticLady

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that only made you Lost .it is you who says your prayers are answered

What does one have to do with the other? It sounds like you are mocking me.

i can assure you/me any one i am born again i have a know so salvation i have life insurance through assurance .to be honest your command healing i have doubts on

Well, I'm glad your friend with cancer is saved and will go to heaven, because he certainly will get no help from you. "My people perish for lack of knowledge."
 

Ezra

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Well, I'm glad your friend with cancer is saved and will go to heaven, because he certainly will get no help from you. "My people perish for lack of knowledge."
i have a book full of knowledge called the Bible .its called the prayer of faith i pray and put it in GOD hand you nor i can control our own destiny or anyone else . his ways are not our ways
 

CharismaticLady

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i have a book full of knowledge called the Bible .its called the prayer of faith i pray and put it in GOD hand you nor i can control our own destiny or anyone else . his ways are not our ways

I gave you Scriptures where they commanded healing. That is what I will be doing.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Well, I'm glad your friend with cancer is saved and will go to heaven, because he certainly will get no help from you. "My people perish for lack of knowledge."

Perish for lack of knowledge? Someone with cancer knowing Him intimately and once leaving the temporary body of illnesses and pain to be with Him ...is the ‘not perishing’ but having a better Hope. This body decomposes and waxes old and returns to dust. “My people perish for lack of knowledge” the perish there is in not knowing Him and is the only thing which continues. (Has) nothing to do with your preventing a body from decaying..you won’t stop that outward from perishing. It is the inward renewed, that of God which doesn’t perish. Which is the focus? Hanging onto what could be gone tomorrow or Isaiah 27:5 Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me.

James 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

would consider one is overshadowed “I’m glad your friend with cancer is saved and will go to heaven” by physical healings...when knowing Him is the fullness of “My people perish for lack of knowledge” and help. Not by discovery of the proper ways or technics by watching others figure out how to do something to get what is asked for.
 

CharismaticLady

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Perish for lack of knowledge? Someone with cancer knowing Him intimately and once leaving the temporary body of illnesses and pain to be with Him ...is the ‘not perishing’ but having a better Hope. This body decomposes and waxes old and returns to dust. “My people perish for lack of knowledge” the perish there is in not knowing Him and is the only thing which continues. (Has) nothing to do with your preventing a body from decaying..you won’t stop that outward from perishing. It is the inward renewed, that of God which doesn’t perish. Which is the focus? Hanging onto what could be gone tomorrow or Isaiah 27:5 Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me.

James 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

would consider one is overshadowed “I’m glad your friend with cancer is saved and will go to heaven” by physical healings...when knowing Him is the fullness of “My people perish for lack of knowledge” and help. Not by discovery of the proper ways or technics by watching others figure out how to do something to get what is asked for.

Those "technics" are given to us by God. If we don't use them we perish before we get old. God would have us hot or cold, not lukewarm.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Those "technics" are given to us by God. If we don't use them we perish before we get old. God would have us hot or cold, not lukewarm.

Then go heal them of their physical perishing before they get old. Not saying God doesn’t heal but sometimes the diminishing of what perishes Is not a bad thing In seeing what does fail and what doesn’t. That His Life and what remains is revealed as far greater than what is temporary and passing away.
 

CharismaticLady

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Then go heal them of their physical perishing before they get old. Not saying God doesn’t heal but sometimes the diminishing of what perishes Is not a bad thing In seeing what does fail and what doesn’t. That His Life and what remains is revealed as far greater than what is temporary and passing away.

I can't do it all myself. You two have to do it too. If you two are just waiting for the sweet by and by to actually live to the fullest, then you will not win many for Christ. But if you go out and heal, the stuborn will turn their lives over to Jesus.

@Ezra really had me hood-winked. I really thought he wanted to know how to help his friend. He may not even have a friend with cancer, just is trolling on the forum to make fun of Christians. That's what it ended up to be anyway. And you are mocking just as much. Shame on you both.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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I can't do it all myself. You two have to do it too. If you two are just waiting for the sweet by and by to actually live to the fullest, then you will not win many for Christ. But if you go out and heal, the stuborn will turn their lives over to Jesus.

I have. Just one I’m thinking of now. A young man. My husband and I really do not get along with his parents, basically they can’t stand us. Called my husband once “the gatekeeper” meant as degrading. But they called one day and said their son was dying of diabetes. He was in his thirties. They asked My husband if he would come to the hospital and pray and how they were desperate and would try anything. Would have to be desperate to ask us. Personally, can’t speak for my husband but they left the room and left us alone with him. I could tell it was bad and honestly I didn’t believe God would get him up out of that bed. Regardless I held his hand and felt his pulse with mine and prayed for God to heal him. begged even. The next day he died. But I do believe in the prayer of Faith...and Have Faith God will do what God said He would do and lift this man overwhelmed by diabetes at the early age of thirty up, and raise him with Christ on the last day. Once, saw that last day clearly as being lifted up with Christ on His last day.

maybe you are right. To be honest..wouldn’t ask me to pray for any physical healing as faith is lacking there for sure. But I do believe in Spiritual healing. I do believe God when He said what perishes. I do have Faith in a prayer of Faith to lift(raise) the dead up with Christ and restore unto God those separated from God.
John 3:10-12 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? [11] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

never have had much faith to believe earthly things...but “if you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things.” The only way is by the Spirit of God. Consider the man who cried “I believe! God help my unbelief.” Not sure(nor convinced) it is necessarily an evil thing to lack faith in earthly things but more critical to have Faith in “how will you believe, if I tell you heavenly things?”
 

Ezra

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@Ezra really had me hood-winked. I really thought he wanted to know how to help his friend.
i never asked you for your help i have prayed for him and have continued to do so . the only hood winking is you thinking you can comand healing . i do not agree with it i have seen folks healed in church. there was no commanding
 

CharismaticLady

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where does that leave you ..you left me hanging on how do you know your prayers are heard when asking for forgiveness

That's a peculiar question unless you just haven't been listening.

Don't you know that if I was still sinning my prayers would not be answered? But they are. You have to break commandments to sin.

1 John 3:21-24
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
 
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3rdAngel

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2 Corinthians 12:7 KJB - "thorn in the flesh"

What does this mean according to scripture?

2 Corinthians 12:7-8 [thorn in the flesh of Paul/eyesight]

The Context 2 Corinthians 12:1-21 KJB

The context of Paul's “thorn” [vs 7], was specifically said to be “in the flesh” [vs 7, Greek, “τη σαρκι”], and therefore was not an 'evil spirit', but an “infirmit[y]” [vs 5,9,10; Greek “ασθενειαις”, of body or mind] that was constantly with him, even though he had prayed to God “thrice” [vs 8] for “it”/”thing” [vs 8] to be 'removed' [vs 8; “depart”; Greek “αποστη”]. Jesus told him, that “My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.” [vs 9] The Greek word for “weakness” is “ασθενεια” and it means feebleness, weakness, disease of body or mind, and is the same root word used in vs 5,9,10 for “infirmities”. See again a mention in 2 Corinthians 11:30:

If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities. 2 Corinthians 11:30​

We see that Paul twice called it “my [mine] infirmities” [2 Corinthians 11:30, 12:9], which he says was “in the flesh” and not of spirit. The part where Paul says, “the messenger of satan”, is referring to the “infirmity of the flesh” [Galatians 4:13], which he says was “my temptation” [Galatians 4:14], through which “infirmity” the devil/satan tried to get to Paul with over this matter of the “eyes” [Galatians 4:15]. Satan always loves to attempt to cause us to doubt God in his allowing certain things to remain with us for a time. Yet, God's purpose is to demonstrate His love towards us, in that He knows what is best for our own salvation. Paul was to leave his infirmity with God, and trust Him and continue where the LORD led him.

Paul is contrasting his clear spiritual eyesight and the visions he received from Jesus, with that of his present poor physical condition, wherein he had to preach with such physical infirmity, that he may not be puffed up at receiving such blessing of God to even see Heaven [Paul, speaking of himself in the third person, the one that was caught up in visions and revelations, as was made known from his first encounter [Acts 9:3-16]].

It is when we recognize our need of Christ Jesus in all things, even though we may be granted great gifts, that we truly see. Therefore, this “thorn” “in the flesh” was “given” [vs 7, “there was given to me”] to Paul by God that he might not be exalted beyond measure, puffed up, by the great things shown unto him, done for him, etc and so trust in his own righteousness, works, flesh, etc and come to be destroyed of that which was to be a blessing. God allowed Paul's eyesight to remain in the condition it was, to keep humility in Paul, and to help him to always see his need of Jesus Christ.

The word for “thorn” in 2 Corinthians 7 is the Greek “σκολοψ”, which means thorn/brier/prickly/pointy [like a stake or pallisade], as we see again in so-called LXX's [septuaginta]:

But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. Numbers 33:55

ἐὰν δὲ μὴ ἀπολέσητε τοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἀπὸ προσώπου ὑμῶν, καὶ ἔσται οὓς ἐὰν καταλίπητε ἐξ αὐτῶν, σκόλοπες ἐν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ὑμῶν καὶ βολίδες ἐν ταῖς πλευραῖς ὑμῶν καὶ ἐχθρεύσουσιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ἐφ᾿ ἣν ὑμεῖς κατοικήσετε, Numbers 33:55 LXX​

In this passage we see a clear connection with the “pricks” [thorn] of the “eyes” and “sides”, which are the exact words Paul also uses. Further, we also see:

And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 28:24

καὶ οὐκ ἔσονται οὐκέτι τῷ οἴκῳ τοῦ Ισραηλ σκόλοψ πικρίας καὶ ἄκανθα ὀδύνης ἀπὸ πάντων τῶν περικύκλῳ αὐτῶν τῶν ἀτιμασάντων αὐτούς· καὶ γνώσονται ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι κύριος. Ezekiel 28:24 LXX​
Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths. Hosea 2:6 [LXX Hosea 2:8]

διὰ τοῦτο ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ φράσσω τὴν ὁδὸν αὐτῆς ἐν σκόλοψιν καὶ ἀνοικοδομήσω τὰς ὁδοὺς αὐτῆς, καὶ τὴν τρίβον αὐτῆς οὐ μὴ εὕρῃ· Hosea 2:8 LXX​

We, know that though Paul had been blinded by His encounter with Jesus [Acts 9:9], yet he later had his eyesight restored to where he could see [Acts 9:12,17,18], yet Paul had not clear physical eyesight, and this is witnessed in several places in the Scripture:

[1] Paul could not immediately distinguish the High Priest from the other Council Members:

And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day. Acts 23:1

And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth. Acts 23:2

Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? Acts 23:3

And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest? Acts 23:4

Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people. Acts 23:5​

[2] Paul, in writing to the Galatians, speaks of their original love to him, in that they would have plucked out their own eyes and given them to him for use if they could:

Brethren, I beseech you, be as I [am]; for I [am] as ye [are]: ye have not injured me at all. - Galatians 4:12

Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. - Galatians 4:13

And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, [even] as Christ Jesus. - Galatians 4:14

Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if [it had been] possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me. - Galatians 4:15​

Notice, how Paul uses some of the same terminology to speak of this “thorn”. He used the words “infirmity”, “of the flesh”, “in my flesh” and in this instance he clearly speaks of the “eyes” as being the source of the infirmity.

[3] Paul, though he personally wrote the letter to the Galatians [6:11], to show his great love for them, he normally used a personal scribe [amanuensis] to do so [see “I Tertius, who wrote this epistle ...” Romans 16:22] and usually just signed the letter once transcribed [see “The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand.” 1 Corinthians 16:21 and “The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.” 2 Thessalonians 3:17 and “The salutation by the hand of me Paul. Remember my bonds. Grace be with you. Amen.” Colossians 4:18 and “I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.” Philemon 1:19], even though Paul was a thoroughly learned man in letters, writing, in several languages [1 Corinthians 14:18], etc [Acts 22:3, 23:6; Philippians 3:5].

Yep same conclusions I had thought. You provided the scriptures though. Well put together!
 
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mjrhealth

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Well, I'm glad your friend with cancer is saved and will go to heaven, because he certainly will get no help from you. "My people perish for lack of knowledge."
And yet, here we have a forum filled with knowledge and people are still lacking...

1Co_8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

We all have thorns, as do I, but Im glad it reminds we of where I came from.
 

marks

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Judges 2:
Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’ ” 4 So it was, when the Angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept.

Thorn in the flesh is a Jewish idiom referring to enemies (people), similar to our idiom, "my mother in law is a pain in the neck."

Paul did have poor eyesight, but that is not his messenger from Satan. Paul's messengers from Satan were his opponents of the gospel. They were his pain in the neck.

Matthew 24:9
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

Acts of the Apostles 15:
And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

2 Peter 3:
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
That's what I think.

And I think this is the only correct answer if we allow Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Much love!
 
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marks

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The "infirmities" was "in the flesh", and not external to himself. Yes, the phrase is an idiom, that is not in question, but an idiom, relies upon the reality, to base its secondary (not primary) use. In other words, as scripture relates, first the natural then the spiritual. For instance, in Genesis, a "day" is literal and natural, and must be, for it to be later used in a spiritual or secondary, etc sense.

The phrase, 'pain in the neck' means that which gives pain to the head (which is really where the pain is registered, the grief of mind/heart). Yet, Paul did not say that the grief was to his mind, but that the "infirmities" was "in the flesh", not of spirit, or heart/mind. It was a physical ailment that was always with him. The temptation of the devil was pointing this out to him, in relation to the power of Christ to give "sight" (such as Revelations), and connected with "exalted" (lifted up in pride) and "glory". Therefore, the devil tempted Paul, as he had done to Job, and so many others, even Christ, that If God is able to Heal, raise the dead, and even raise a man unto the sight of Heaven, then why couldn't or didn't, God heal Paul of this "infirmities" (malady) which is "in the flesh", not the spirit/heart/mind.
The Bible says that there was a servant of Satan sent to beat him. Myself, I think that's exactly what it means.

Much love!