Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?
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BARNEY BRIGHT
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To me it seems not only are you saying then, that God didn't bring everything into existence, but what he has brought into existence, he can't destroy completely out of existence simply because the laws of this universe which you speak of which God brought into existence. Do you truly believe the laws of this universe trumps God's power? You really think you will convince me that creation is more powerful than God? You think that the laws men speak of which are the laws of creation trumps God who is beyond creation? God is way beyond the laws you speak of which are a part of creation. For you to say energy is beyond God or more powerful than God just because scientists and others say so, I don't agree. God is way beyond creation and it's laws. Creation doesn't restrain God's power within the laws of creation, as I said, God is way beyond creation and it's laws. God is not a part of creation, he brought all creation into existence including all its laws.
It also seems that you're saying death isn't the opposite of life when you say something remains. Going all the way back to Eden and the rebellion it seems you're agreeing with that serpent who told Eve she wouldn't die because according to you something lives on therefore the person who is Eve lives on. Which to me it means you believe God to be a liar like the serpent who said God is a liar. Sorry I'm going to disagree with how you see things. God can destroy completely out of existence what he brought into existence. The laws of creation don't restrain God's power. God also brought everything into existence. You can believe God didn't bring this energy you speak of into existence but to me you're saying God didn't bring everything into existence. You and others can go ahead and believe this energy you speak of trumps God, but I don't agree. You're just going by the thinking of scientists who are a part of creation.
I do believe that those who do not believe in conscious eternal torment are more likely to take a chance on eternity...after all, the worst that will happen to them is that they will forever lose consciousness...and that might even be considered to be eternal bliss by some. Certainly not a punishment; and those who disagree with what the Bible says based on their view of who God is may not be realizing that they are making an idol out of their understanding of who God is...but that they are not worshiping the one true YHWH.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
What you state here applies also to those who believe in conscious torment after death. The beliefs you believe in are showing everyone the God you believe in. If you believe that those who believe God to be a person who destroys the unrighteous in complete nonexistence to be wrong but are found to be simply believing the truth about God and you are believing him to be a person who destroys the unrighteous by eternal conscious fiery torment and it's false then it is those that believe God destroys the unrighteous with eternal fiery torment for eternity that are believing and worshipping a false god rather than the True God YHWH.
When a person states that those who believe that the unrighteous are destroyed out of existence will more likely take a chance on eternity because the worst that will happen is they will lose eternal consciousness that person knows nothing about the truth. The reason a person worships God is because of their love for him not because of the way God destroys the wicked. Reverential fear is what motivates you to worship God. What that means is that the scriptures are telling us that a person who truly loves God will want to obey him not because of how God may punish him but because that person who truly loves God knows to obey what God says to do or not do simply because they know God loves them and that whatever he tells you to do or not do it's in your best interests to be obedient because God would never tell you to do or not do anything that wasn't in your best interests because you have faith he loves you that much and that way. Also you would want to be obedient to God because the world is watching and you do not want to live your life in a way that brings reproach upon God's name if you truly love him. I'm not talking about being perfect no one will be perfect in this wicked world we're living in. Perfection will happen in the new heaven and earth.
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As a matter of fact they do not mean the same thing, since death needs to be properly defined. If you are referring to the Second Death, then yes, perish, damnation, and the Second Death are all equivalent -- eternal damnation in the Lake of fire.
Physical death is the separation of the soul and spirit from the body. Those who are in Christ go to be with Christ (in Heaven). Those who are not in Christ go to Hades (formerly Sheol). Souls do not go six feet under and *sleep* (as many believe mistakenly).
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Getitright
Active Member
No, the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment is not Biblical. It's a Greek doctrine that is propped up by a mistranslation of the Greek word "aion". Aion does not mean eternal.
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Base 12,
You must learn not to pontificate from ignorance of the nuanced meaning of biblilcal languages. For example, the standard dictionary of biblical Hebrew is the massive volume of Brown-Driver-Briggs. On p. 761 it defines "olam" as "long duration, antiquity." That is NOT eternal as the KJV often mistranslates it! In the Greek translation of the Old Testament "olam" is often translated by "aionios," the Greek word often mistranslated in the New Testament as "eternal." So when translating "aionios" as used by Jews, we need to understand the more limited use of the Hebrew "olam."
True, "aionios" can mean "eternal" in the sense of no end being envisaged as in sight. But "aionios" is the adjective cognate of the Greek noun "aion," which means "enduring time." In later [i. e. post-classical] poetry and prose "aionios" is used in the sense of "long-lasting" or "enduring" in accordance with the basic meaning of "aion" (so Kittel, ed. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. I, pp. 208-209--severa; examples given)." Similarly, in Philemon 15 the phrase "that you should receive him forever (aionion)" just means "that you should receive him permanently in this life" and does not imply a continuing relationship in the next life. "Aionios" here means "long-lasting, enduring," but not "eternal." In Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9, and Titus 1:2 the expression "chronoi aionioi" means "long times," not "eternal times," since an eternal time period could not be chopped up kto finite segments.
These insights open the door to the possibility of ultimate release from Hell and "aionios" punishment, as is taught in many New Testament texts. For a fuller discussion of these texts, see David Taylor's thread on universalism.
You must learn not to pontificate from ignorance of the nuanced meaning of biblilcal languages. For example, the standard dictionary of biblical Hebrew is the massive volume of Brown-Driver-Briggs. On p. 761 it defines "olam" as "long duration, antiquity." That is NOT eternal as the KJV often mistranslates it! In the Greek translation of the Old Testament "olam" is often translated by "aionios," the Greek word often mistranslated in the New Testament as "eternal." So when translating "aionios" as used by Jews, we need to understand the more limited use of the Hebrew "olam."
True, "aionios" can mean "eternal" in the sense of no end being envisaged as in sight. But "aionios" is the adjective cognate of the Greek noun "aion," which means "enduring time." In later [i. e. post-classical] poetry and prose "aionios" is used in the sense of "long-lasting" or "enduring" in accordance with the basic meaning of "aion" (so Kittel, ed. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. I, pp. 208-209--severa; examples given)." Similarly, in Philemon 15 the phrase "that you should receive him forever (aionion)" just means "that you should receive him permanently in this life" and does not imply a continuing relationship in the next life. "Aionios" here means "long-lasting, enduring," but not "eternal." In Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9, and Titus 1:2 the expression "chronoi aionioi" means "long times," not "eternal times," since an eternal time period could not be chopped up kto finite segments.
These insights open the door to the possibility of ultimate release from Hell and "aionios" punishment, as is taught in many New Testament texts. For a fuller discussion of these texts, see David Taylor's thread on universalism.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
From what I read in the scriptures I believe when someone's dies be it a righteous person or unrighteous person they all go to Hell/Hades/Sheol and have no consciousness until the Resurrection, which starts at the second presence or second coming of Jesus Christ. I don't believe The getting tossed into the Lake of fire happens until the last test is over which starts sometime after the thousand year Reign of Jesus Christ when Satan and his demons are released from the Abyss for a short period of time. The Lake of fire is the second death in which there is no resurrection so I believe they are destroyed out of existence for eternity when they are thrown into the Lake of Fire. The scriptures show us that death and Hell/Hades/Shell are also thrown into the lake of fire so all these that are thrown there are destroyed out of existence.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
The wily foe reinterprets the plain straight forward pronouncements of God to suit his own agenda of deception.
To what end you might ask? To take down as many as he can in the madness that has infected him.
Ezekiel 28:17-19
17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendour. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and your dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you and it consumed you and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.
Helen
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Helen
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And that street runs both ways..you are preaching to yourself...
God in His own good time will reveal all of His nature...and many will have to hang their head in shame at how they judged Him to be.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Yes but Esau wasn't weeping because he was repented and now cared about what God cared about. Esau was a materialistic man and cared only about the riches the firstborn blessing would have given him. Jacob was the one who cared about the things God cared about.
If that is the case, then John 6:47 teaches us not that we will have everlasting life; but that we will have life for precisely one eon of time; and then perish.
It is not how I have judged the Lord to be. For if it were up to me, I would very much prefer to believe that God does not punish people with conscious eternal torment.
However, the Bible is too clear in its assertion that conscious eternal torment is the fate of those who reject Christ. In knowing the verses that speak on this issue, my belief is set in stone...the second death means torment day and night for ever and ever in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10).
And Revelation 14:9-11 is also clear: at the very least, those who worship the beast and his image shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb; and the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night for ever and ever.
Now I know that there are arguments that people level against such scriptures; but I do believe that they are arguments based on wishful thinking. And such things are demolished by the weapons of our warfare (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).
I would say that if you are one who believes that you will simply be made unconscious upon being thrown into the lake of fire, that for your own sake you ought to consider that you may be wrong and that conscious eternal torment is the reality....for if you live with the understanding that it is the reality, I do believe that you will have more of a motivation to not sin in your life.
Jesus said,
Mat 5:29, And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30, And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
And if hell is not a place of conscious eternal torment, but is merely the end of consciousness, why even speak of it as hell?
Biblically, hell is spoken of as a place of being subjected to fire and brimstone.
Mar 9:42, And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Mar 9:43, And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44, Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45, And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46, Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47, And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48, Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:49, For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Mar 9:50, Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
And it seems to me that the only reason why anyone might object to the reality of these things would be because they know that they are going to hell and will not take the necessary steps to avoid the punishment that is going to be meted out.
Also, the worm doesn't die there; what makes you think you will?
I know well our friend @brakelite and I know where Hes coming from, but " in a twinkling of an eye we will all be changed", than there will be no more sin
Helen
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Amen...maybe if we continue to say it enough times they 'may' just check it out for themselves, instead of just believing what someone spoon-fed them from some pulpit.
“Their Worm Dieth Not”
The phrase, “their worm dieth not” is found in the following verses of the Gospel of Mark, in the New Testament [KJB]:
Mark 9:44 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Jesus, in the Gospel of Mark in the NT, is quoting from the OT, in the prophet Isaiah:
Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
How do we then understand the phrase, “their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched”?
In order to understand the phrase, “their worm dieth not”, etc., we need to read them in their immediate contexts, prayerfully, first, and compare each phrase with the surrounding verses and then also compare it to the whole of the Bible [as per Genesis 40:8; Isaiah 28:10,13; 1 Corinthians 2:3 KJB] in the same subject, asking Jesus what they mean; and He, by the Holy Spirit, will explain them.
The parallel passages of Mark 9:44,46,48 KJB are:
Mark 9:43 KJB - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:45 KJB - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:47 KJB - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:45 KJB - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:47 KJB - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
First of all, the verses speak of “Where ...”, in reference to a specific location, as seen in the previous verses, wherein it names the place, “go into hell”, “cast into hell”, “hellfire”.
Therefore, notice that Jesus, while quoting from Isaiah 66:24 KJB, repeats Himself several times, defining for us, so that we understand what He is saying:
Mark 9:43 KJB - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45 KJB - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:47 KJB - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:44 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45 KJB - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:47 KJB - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Please also notice the contrast between:
[1] “enter into life” [being Eternal Life, Heaven and the Kingdom of God], and,
[2] “go into [or 'cast into'] hell” [being eternal death, wherein there is no resurrection, nor life ever again, but only a dying by fire until one is forever dead and gone].
[2] “go into [or 'cast into'] hell” [being eternal death, wherein there is no resurrection, nor life ever again, but only a dying by fire until one is forever dead and gone].
Please also notice, Mark 9:49-50 KJB, in that all [everyone, good or evil] will be salted with “fire” [1 Corinthians 3:10-17 KJB; either by the [1] Holy Ghost [Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16 KJB], or [2] Hellfire]:
Mark 9:49 KJB - For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Mark 9:50 KJB - Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Mark 9:50 KJB - Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Compare these to:
Matthew 5:13 KJB - Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Compare “cast out”, and “trodden under foot of men” to:
Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Malachi 4:1 KJB - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Malachi 4:2 KJB - But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Malachi 4:3 KJB - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Luke 14:34 KJB - Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
Luke 14:35 KJB - It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Malachi 4:1 KJB - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Malachi 4:2 KJB - But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Malachi 4:3 KJB - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Luke 14:34 KJB - Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
Luke 14:35 KJB - It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Therefore the “worm dieth not”, deals with “hell” portion, which is also tied to “the fire is not quenched”, or the “[hell] fire” portion, which will take place at the end of the final phase of Judgment - the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15 KJB.
Side note, for those who enjoy looking into the Koine Greek of some portion of text [not myself particularly, as scripture [KJB] is to be defined “line upon line”, not Hebrew upon Hebrew, nor Greek upon Greek, etc.]
G4663
Koine Greek: σκώληξ
Transliterated: skōlēx
Translated into King James Bible English, as:
“worm”, 3x, Mark 9:44,46,48 KJB
See also the (so-called) LXX [Septuagint, actually the gnostic Origen's Greek translation of the OT]:
Exodus 16:20,24; Deuteronomy 28:39; Job 2:9, 7:5, 25:6; Psalms 22:6 [21:7]; Proverbs 12:4, 25:20 [32:20]; Isaiah 14:11, 66:24; Jonah 4:7
Side note, the related Koine Greek word:
G4662
Koine Greek: σκωληκόβρωτος
Transliterated: skōlēkobrōtos
Translated into King James Bible English, as:
“eaten”, 1x, Acts 12:23 KJB
“worms”, 1x, Acts 12:23 KJB
“worms”, 1x, Acts 12:23 KJB
If we do a search throughout the Bible [KJB] for “worm” or “worms”, we see that it has several definitions:
“worm”, “worms”:
[1] a creature, a moth larva:
[2] a creature, an earthworm, a maggot, a 'vermes', an invertebrate [no-back bone], that eat, or live in earth, decaying matter, and plants [worms are the grave 'clothes' a person wears in decaying and death]:
[3] a “despised” persons life, a the life of a person who is “a reproach of men”, a “Jacob”:
[4] also “corruption” and grave [clothes, worms cover the body], rotting [flesh], decay and despising:
Isaiah 51:8 KJB - For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.
[2] a creature, an earthworm, a maggot, a 'vermes', an invertebrate [no-back bone], that eat, or live in earth, decaying matter, and plants [worms are the grave 'clothes' a person wears in decaying and death]:
Exodus 16:20 KJB - Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.
Exodus 16:24 KJB - And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
Deuteronomy 28:39 KJB - Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.
Job 7:5 KJB - My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.
Job 19:26 KJB - And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 21:26 KJB - They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.
Job 24:20 KJB - The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.
Isaiah 14:11 KJB - Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
Jonah 4:7 KJB - But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.
Micah 7:17 KJB - They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee.
Acts 12:23 KJB - And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.
Exodus 16:24 KJB - And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
Deuteronomy 28:39 KJB - Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.
Job 7:5 KJB - My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.
Job 19:26 KJB - And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 21:26 KJB - They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.
Job 24:20 KJB - The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.
Isaiah 14:11 KJB - Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
Jonah 4:7 KJB - But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.
Micah 7:17 KJB - They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee.
Acts 12:23 KJB - And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.
[3] a “despised” persons life, a the life of a person who is “a reproach of men”, a “Jacob”:
Job 25:6 KJB - How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
Psalms 22:6 KJB - But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Compare also Psalms 22:6 KJB to Daniel 12:2 KJB, in speaking of the wicked:
Psalms 22:6 KJB - But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Side note: Psalms 22 KJB, is about Christ Jesus [Psalms 22:1; Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34 KJB], the “propitiation” [Romans 3:5; 1 John 2:2, 4:10 KJB], who was made to be “sin for us” [2 Corinthians 5:21 KJB], and took our sins and the “wrath of God” [Romans 1:18 KJB] upon Himself.
Compare also Psalms 22:6 KJB to Daniel 12:2 KJB, in speaking of the wicked:
Daniel 12:2 KJB - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
Isaiah 41:14 KJB - Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Micah 7:17 KJB - They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee.
Mark 9:44 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Isaiah 41:14 KJB - Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Micah 7:17 KJB - They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee.
Mark 9:44 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[4] also “corruption” and grave [clothes, worms cover the body], rotting [flesh], decay and despising:
Exodus 16:20 KJB - Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.
Exodus 16:24 KJB - And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
Job 7:5 KJB - My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.
Job 17:14 KJB - I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.
Job 19:26 KJB - And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 21:26 KJB - They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.
Exodus 16:24 KJB - And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
Side note, Exodus 16 KJB, deals with “the manna”, a type of the flesh, of either the sinner, or of the obedient Christ Jesus, see John 6:32, 6:51-53 KJB.
Job 7:5 KJB - My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.
Job 17:14 KJB - I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.
Job 19:26 KJB - And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 21:26 KJB - They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.
So then, what does “their worm dieth not” mean?
Notice that the phrase “their worm” is singular and possessive.
It means that the person [lost*] that is cast into the hell[fire] will continue to exist [“dieth not”] until they, in all portions [“soul and body”; Matthew 10:28 KJB] are consumed totally by that hellfire [which fire will “not be quenched” [verb, 'to quench' put out] by anyone or any means]] into ashes [carbon].
Matthew 10:28 KJB - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
[lost*, the one who did not overcome sin by the indwelling of Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit, and did not receive the new name in the white stone, but remained instead a “Jacob” [a supplanter, overcome by sin], a “despised” person, a “reproach of men”, and “no man” [Psalms 22:6 KJB] [ie., not like obedient Christ Jesus, “the man” [1 Timothy 2:5 KJB], the “second” [1 Corinthians 15:47 KJB] and “last Adam” [1 Corinthians 15:45 KJB]], filled with “shame” and to have “everlasting contempt” [Daniel 12:2 KJB] upon them]
Let us consider how the Bible uses the word “quench[ed]”:
2 Samuel 14:7 KJB - And, behold, the whole family is risen against thine handmaid, and they said, Deliver him that smote his brother, that we may kill him, for the life of his brother whom he slew; and we will destroy the heir also: and so they shall quench my coal which is left, and shall not leave to my husband neither name nor remainder upon the earth.
2 Samuel 21:17 KJB - But Abishai the son of Zeruiah succoured him, and smote the Philistine, and killed him. Then the men of David sware unto him, saying, Thou shalt go no more out with us to battle, that thou quench not the light of Israel.
Job 18:5 KJB - Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine.
Psalms 104:11 KJB - They give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst.
Song of Solomon 8:7 KJB - Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it: if a man would give all the substance of his house for love, it would utterly be contemned.
Isaiah 1:31 KJB - And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.
Isaiah 1:30 KJB - For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.
Isaiah 42:3 KJB - A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Jeremiah 4:4 KJB - Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
Jeremiah 21:12 KJB - O house of David, thus saith the LORD; Execute judgment in the morning, and deliver him that is spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, lest my fury go out like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
Amos 5:6 KJB - Seek the LORD, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, and there be none to quench it in Bethel.
Matthew 12:20 KJB - A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
Ephesians 6:16 KJB - Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
1 Thessalonians 5:19 KJB - Quench not the Spirit.
Numbers 11:2 KJB - And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses prayed unto the LORD, the fire was quenched.
2 Kings 22:17 KJB - Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.
2 Chronicles 34:25 KJB - Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched.
Psalms 118:12 KJB - They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them.
Isaiah 34:10 KJB - It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Isaiah 43:17 KJB - Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow.
Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Jeremiah 7:20 KJB - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
Jeremiah 17:27 KJB - But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.
Ezekiel 20:47 KJB - And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.
Ezekiel 20:48 KJB - And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.
Mark 9:43 KJB - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45 KJB - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Hebrews 11:34 KJB - Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
2 Samuel 21:17 KJB - But Abishai the son of Zeruiah succoured him, and smote the Philistine, and killed him. Then the men of David sware unto him, saying, Thou shalt go no more out with us to battle, that thou quench not the light of Israel.
Job 18:5 KJB - Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine.
Psalms 104:11 KJB - They give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst.
Song of Solomon 8:7 KJB - Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it: if a man would give all the substance of his house for love, it would utterly be contemned.
Isaiah 1:31 KJB - And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.
Isaiah 1:30 KJB - For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.
Isaiah 42:3 KJB - A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Jeremiah 4:4 KJB - Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
Jeremiah 21:12 KJB - O house of David, thus saith the LORD; Execute judgment in the morning, and deliver him that is spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, lest my fury go out like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
Amos 5:6 KJB - Seek the LORD, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, and there be none to quench it in Bethel.
Matthew 12:20 KJB - A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
Ephesians 6:16 KJB - Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
1 Thessalonians 5:19 KJB - Quench not the Spirit.
Numbers 11:2 KJB - And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses prayed unto the LORD, the fire was quenched.
2 Kings 22:17 KJB - Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.
2 Chronicles 34:25 KJB - Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched.
Psalms 118:12 KJB - They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them.
Isaiah 34:10 KJB - It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Isaiah 43:17 KJB - Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow.
Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Jeremiah 7:20 KJB - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
Jeremiah 17:27 KJB - But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.
Ezekiel 20:47 KJB - And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.
Ezekiel 20:48 KJB - And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.
Side note: the wrath of God, and the fire that He sent against Jerusalem, was not “quenched” [not put out by anyone or anything], but burned, until it consumed the city unto ashes and rubble, and only smoke was left which ascended upward into the heavens and could be seen from far, which is a type unto the end-time all consuming hellfire:
Jeremiah 39:8 KJB - And the Chaldeans burned the king's house, and the houses of the people, with fire, and brake down the walls of Jerusalem.
Jeremiah 52:13 KJB - And burned the house of the LORD, and the king's house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, and all the houses of the great men, burned he with fire:
2 Kings 25:9 KJB - And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire.
2 Chronicles 36:19 KJB - And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.
Amos 2:5 KJB - But I will send a fire upon Judah, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem.
Jeremiah 52:13 KJB - And burned the house of the LORD, and the king's house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, and all the houses of the great men, burned he with fire:
2 Kings 25:9 KJB - And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire.
2 Chronicles 36:19 KJB - And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.
Amos 2:5 KJB - But I will send a fire upon Judah, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem.
Mark 9:43 KJB - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45 KJB - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Hebrews 11:34 KJB - Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
Side note: For more on the all consuming Fire, that the wicked will Perish [John 3:16 KJB] in, please see the coming passages.
For our "present truth" brethren:
From the Testimony of Jesus, we also read [see highlighted portions]:
“…We read of chains of darkness for the transgressor of God’s law. We read of the worm that dieth not and of the fire that is not quenched. Thus is represented the experience of everyone that has permitted himself to be grafted into the stalk of Satan, who has cherished sinful attributes. When too late he will see that sin is the transgression of God’s law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God’s wrath abides upon him. This is a fire unquenchable. Thus the soul and body of every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed. Satan, the first transgressor, strives constantly to lead men into sin, and he who is willing to be led, who refuses to forsake his sins and receive forgiveness and grace unto salvation, will suffer the result of his course. …” - Ms 106, 1897, September 22, 1897; sister E. G. White
“… Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, “The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.”
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but [page 294-295] also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, “Amen!”
Said the angel, “Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe.” I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain. God's entire universe was clean, and the great controversy was forever ended. Wherever we looked, everything upon which the eye rested was beautiful and holy. And all the redeemed host, old and young, great and small, cast their glittering crowns at the feet of their Redeemer, and prostrated themselves in adoration before Him, and worshiped Him that liveth forever and ever. The beautiful new earth, with all its glory, was the eternal inheritance of the saints. The kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, was then given to the saints of the Most High, who were to possess it forever, even forever and ever. …” - Early Writings, Page 294-295; sister E. G. White
“… Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, “The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.”
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but [page 294-295] also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, “Amen!”
Said the angel, “Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe.” I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain. God's entire universe was clean, and the great controversy was forever ended. Wherever we looked, everything upon which the eye rested was beautiful and holy. And all the redeemed host, old and young, great and small, cast their glittering crowns at the feet of their Redeemer, and prostrated themselves in adoration before Him, and worshiped Him that liveth forever and ever. The beautiful new earth, with all its glory, was the eternal inheritance of the saints. The kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, was then given to the saints of the Most High, who were to possess it forever, even forever and ever. …” - Early Writings, Page 294-295; sister E. G. White
Please notice that the Testimony of Jesus, by an angel, to the messenger of God, said:
“... Said the angel, “The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.” ...”
See the parallel definition:
[A1] “The worm of life shall not die; ...”
[A2] “... the least particle ...”
[B1] “... their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is ...”
[A2] “... the least particle ...”
[B2] “... for it to prey upon.”
The Consuming Fire of God's Love:
The Scriptural [KJB] Fire, instead:
Additionally, it is the Righteous who will eternally dwell with God, who is “a Spirit” [John 4:24 KJB], and “the Holy Spirit” the fullness of “fire” [Acts 2:3; Revelation 1:4; 4:5 KJB], who “baptize/s” with “fire” [Matthew 3:11; Mark 9:49; Luke 3:16 KJB], thus we will dwell with “everlasting burnings” [Isaiah 33:14 KJB], for God is a “consuming fire” [to sin and of “Love”] [Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29; 1 John 4:8,16 KJB] and a “fire goeth before Him” [Psalms 97:3 KJB] which “shall devour before Him” [Psalms 50:3 KJB] and “he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire” [Lamentations 2:3 KJB], and for those whom He loves He is a “wall of fire round about” [Zechariah 2:5 KJB] and His “ministers a flame of fire” [Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7 KJB] and His “tongue as a devouring fire” [Isaiah 30:7 KJB] His speech “fire” [2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8; Jeremiah 20:9; Acts 2:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJB], His “eyes … as a flame of fire” [Revelation 1:14, 2:18, 19:12 KJB], His “face as the sun” and His “feet a pillar of fire” [Matthew 17:2; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Revelation 1:15, 2:18, 10:1 KJB], for He is a “refiners fire” [Malachi 3:2 KJB] having a “throne of fire” [Psalms 89:36; Daniel 7:9; Ezekiel 1:26-28; Revelation 4:5 KJB], His Ten Commandments a “Fiery Law” [Deuteronomy 33:2; Ezekiel 28:14,16 KJB] and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire [Revelation 15:2 KJB], and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed [Exodus 3:3 KJB], for He is “Light”, even the Light of all.
However, the wicked are never immortal, for they are to be burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished forever; Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:9, 21:4 KJB.
For now, let's now look at the word "carcases".
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