Universalism: Where Do People Get The Idea

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,581
7,857
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, well this is one of several places where they expressed confidence that the Holy Spirit would keep them faithful until the end. But Paul is not here negating their freewill here. He is saying that the Holy Spirit will keep them so long as they desire to be kept. If they fall away or reject Him out of fear of what man might do to them, then there remains no sacrifice for sins.

But I think we're venturing too far off topic from this thread at this point, so maybe we can save this one for another thread sometime : )

understood...agree for another thread sometime. Concerning the topic of why... another question for me has always been that (unless I’ve misunderstood) God said they will be ashamed. My question is looking back over the persecution of His people and all those slaughtered or killed while speaking of Him, praying for their persecutors. I don’t see the persecutors are ashamed of what they do. Maybe sometimes like Saul/Paul. But haven’t seen this overwhelming sorrow or being ashamed of how His children are treated. even His saying the world will hate you. when I think of ashamed ...I think repentance or sorrow or regret for ones actions. So yeah...I’m confused because God even goes as far as saying even if they kill the body...fear not, but fear the One who has the power over casting out torment. Where does the ashamed of what they have done without cause come in? If that is only to the Jews (The nation)then there is no persecution of those gentiles brought in? Then it is a moot point discussing forgiving those who hate you when there is no hate to forgive.

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

1 Peter 4:16-18 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. [17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? [18] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

the big question: what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God? What is the gospel of God if not Christ.

John 15:22-25 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. [23] He that hateth me hateth my Father also. [24] If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. [25] But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Ezekiel 14:21-23 For thus saith the Lord God ; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast? [22] Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it. [23] And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord God.

and you shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, says the Lord God. Do we know He has not done without cause all that He has done in it? Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,155
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Apology not necessary my sister, I surmised that I may have not worded my opening statement very well and this caused you to stumble (thankfully but for a moment) felling to read the whole post which would have explained better what I was trying to say.

We all do this at times, i.e. judging a book my its cover or in this case an explanation by its opening statement.

Sorry for the confusion.

Although we Bible Students are not Universalist, that is we do not believe in the universal salvation of all we do believe in the universal opportunity for all to obtain eternal salvation.

God having saved (redeemed) all men from the original curse which was upon Adam and his race does not guarantee everlasting life to any, he merely releases us from the original sentence, brought upon us by Adam’s sin.

Eternal salvation
will be determined upon the conclusion of the trial (a new trial) of each individual, the Church presently during this the Gospel Age as each prospective member of the body passes beyond the Vail of death, and the remainder of the world by the end of the Mediatorial reign at the end of the millennial age.


Thank you brother for your good and kind post. Very gracious.
You caught out too...I did not read to the very end of your first post to me.
< red face :oops: >

Every blessing...H
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,155
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
He is saying that the Holy Spirit will keep them so long as they desire to be kept. If they fall away or reject Him out of fear of what man might do to them, then there remains no sacrifice for sins.

Hi there Bro

What about Peter?
Jesus said to him..."Satan has desired to sift you as wheat, but I have prayed for you that you faith fails not."
He had the fear of man...we know that...and he also found that there WAS a place to come back to in repentance.

70 x 7 was God's idea not mans ...right.

Bless you...Happy New Year to you and your house :)
 

Waiting on him

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2018
11,674
6,096
113
56
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi there Bro

What about Peter?
Jesus said to him..."Satan has desired to sift you as wheat, but I have prayed for you that you faith fails not."
He had the fear of man...we know that...and he also found that there WAS a place to come back to in repentance.

70 x 7 was God's idea not mans ...right.

Bless you...Happy New Year to you and your house :)
70x7 the sum is 490, I’ve read before that this is the number of years Israel broke Gods law to allow the ground to rest every seventh year?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,155
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
70x7 the sum is 490, I’ve read before that this is the number of years Israel broke Gods law to allow the ground to rest every seventh year?

Oh interesting ..I'd always been told it is an indefinite number ...no ending..
Can't for the life of me remember why now :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Waiting on him

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,447
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But that time was only till His Holy Spirit was given it was from than that,

Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Really... and does not the Holy Spirit speak through any man today? People want to make the Bible what it cannot be alone, Alive!
The Life comes to us by the quickening of the Holy Spirit.


1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.[/quote]
And if the pastor, teacher, prophet, evangelist or apostle among us is anointed by the Holy Spirit, it is not the man that is teaching but the very Word of God in that man. Sometimes, as we know God may put His Word in a person, or even a donkey, to speak his message:

"And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;" John 11:49-51


He, as the high priest, was truly with those words a prophet of God, but see then in another place what the same man, the same high priest did:

"Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy." Matt 26:35

Did that high priest not know what was written here?

"And he that is the high priest among his brethren, upon whose head the anointing oil was poured, and that is consecrated to put on the garments, shall not uncover his head, nor rend his clothes;" Lev 21:10

This why we dont need religion, only Christ...
We may, as you say, not need religion, but are there no pastors, teachers, prophets, evangelists or apostles today given by God with an anointing in their office to 'perfect the saints', to 'edify the body of Christ'? Certainly there are some, even many, who are false, or who were never anointed, or who are working in opposition to their own calling, but don't throw out the good fruit with the rotten fruit! Don't cast aside the gift of God when it is where it is supposed to be and doing what it is supposed to do? Are not men also gifts to men from God?
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Really... and does not the Holy Spirit speak through any man today? People want to make the Bible what it cannot be alone, Alive!
The Life comes to us by the quickening of the Holy Spirit.


We may, as you say, not need religion, but are there no pastors, teachers, prophets, evangelists or apostles today given by God with an anointing in their office to 'perfect the saints', to 'edify the body of Christ'? Certainly there are some, even many, who are false, or who were never anointed, or who are working in opposition to their own calling, but don't throw out the good fruit with the rotten fruit! Don't cast aside the gift of God when it is where it is supposed to be and doing what it is supposed to do? Are not men also gifts to men from God?
Remember Moses and Pharoah,

Exo_9:1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.

Exo_9:17 As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?

That is the state of religion and has being for centuries, I have watched a few on telly Prince comes to mind, much revelation, he has, but watch his church, its dead.

Act_2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act_2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

This is the day we are living in..

Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

we are born to follow after Christ not men, Waaht was it Jesus said,

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

it was never meant to be this way...
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,447
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Remember Moses and Pharoah,

Exo_9:1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.

Exo_9:17 As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?

That is the state of religion and has being for centuries, I have watched a few on telly Prince comes to mind, much revelation, he has, but watch his church, its dead.

Act_2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act_2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

This is the day we are living in..

Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

we are born to follow after Christ not men, Waaht was it Jesus said,

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

it was never meant to be this way...
I never discount God's foreknowledge of all these things. He already knew what man would be before He created men. He knew what men would do. God has established His own order for things. He had the entirety of His plan in place before the foundation of this world. Men seldom understand it and those who begin understand it often still don't stand by what they do understand. Consider what James, inspired by God wrote:

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:10

They "ought not", but they are, which is why God inspired James to write down the words. What many [most?] men do not accept or understand is that Bible which contains so much requires the same inspiration from God to understand His messages in it as was required to write them down. People without the Spirit, or quenching the Spirit, draw erroneous conclusions from the written scriptures. I know you understand the necessity of hearing from God to know which way to turn. Without Him we can do nothing good. Even unbelievers doing really good things were enabled by God... even though they seldom, if ever, acknowledge it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VictoryinJesus

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I never discount God's foreknowledge of all these things. He already knew what man would be before He created men. He knew what men would do. God has established His own order for things. He had the entirety of His plan in place before the foundation of this world. Men seldom understand it and those who begin understand it often still don't stand by what they do understand. Consider what James, inspired by God wrote:

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:10

They "ought not", but they are, which is why God inspired James to write down the words. What many [most?] men do not accept or understand is that Bible which contains so much requires the same inspiration from God to understand His messages in it as was required to write them down. People without the Spirit, or quenching the Spirit, draw erroneous conclusions from the written scriptures. I know you understand the necessity of hearing from God to know which way to turn. Without Him we can do nothing good. Even unbelievers doing really good things were enabled by God... even though they seldom, if ever, acknowledge it.
You are an honest man, few like you around, I could write a lot more about church, suffice to say the Pia asked the Lord if she could go, and His response was, In there you will find like minded people, which was fine untill the pastor found out that she was getting more revelation than him and almost killed her faith, shipwrecked her daughters. Sometimes I wonder why He doesnt warn us of these things, but I suspect it has to do with understanding what is going on, experience is the greatest teacher.

God Bless you my friend
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,447
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are an honest man, few like you around, I could write a lot more about church, suffice to say the Pia asked the Lord if she could go, and His response was, In there you will find like minded people, which was fine untill the pastor found out that she was getting more revelation than him and almost killed her faith, shipwrecked her daughters. Sometimes I wonder why He doesnt warn us of these things, but I suspect it has to do with understanding what is going on, experience is the greatest teacher.

God Bless you my friend
I have seen a lot, but really little when we consider how much there is and has been. LOL...Even on this God had Solomon write:

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us." Ecc 1:9-10


It is all so complicated, but oh so simple to God. If we are really on His side all of the time, how simple should it be for us?

Continuing to pray for Pia and hers. Will see you around the forum!
 
  • Like
Reactions: VictoryinJesus

Hidden In Him

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2018
10,600
10,883
113
59
Lafayette, LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi there Bro

What about Peter?
Jesus said to him..."Satan has desired to sift you as wheat, but I have prayed for you that you faith fails not."
He had the fear of man...we know that...and he also found that there WAS a place to come back to in repentance.

Yes, Ma'am. As long as a man is alive the door is still open to return. Denying Him isn't unforgivable, so long as one turns back and is willing to profess Him before men, and die for Him if necessary in the end : )
Bless you...Happy New Year to you and your house :)

You as well! I hope 2020 is a great year for all of us : )
 

Berserk

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2019
878
670
93
76
Colville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation presents this postmortem pattern: first death, first resurrection, 2nd death, second resurrection, but oddly fails to specify the occasion of the 2nd resurrection. "The first resurrection" happens after the millennial reign with Christ, however that be interpreted (20:5). What is important for this thread's purpose is the implication that there is an ensuing 2nd resurrection. Because the "2nd death" is "the lake of fire (20:8)," John's pattern implies that the 2nd resurrection must take the damned out of the lake of fire. But that would mean release from the lake of fire, which exists "into the ages of the ages (20:10)." So "Death and Hades" are permanently cast into "the lake of fire (20:14)," but not their victims, because our Messiah holds "the keys to Death and Hades (1:18)."

Does Revelation contain evidence for such an ultimate release? The answer is a thrilling Yes--evidence of at least 3 types.

(1) In the beginning of his apocalypse (1:7) John sets the stage for his universalist themes by extending the prophetic promise of Zechariah 12:10 to include not just "the inhabitants of Jerusalem," but also "all the tribes of the earth." The "wailing" of all the world's pagans must be understood as the mourning of repentance. This is clear from the universalist theme in the heavenly hymn in Revelation 5:13:

"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To the One who is seated on the throne and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!’’”

The expression "under the earth" refers to Hades, not to the then unknown continent of Australia! This hymn envisages every human, righteous and unrighteous alike, worshiping God and Christ. But it is absurd to assume that the damned will worship God and Christ only to await a lever to be pulled that opens the gates of darkness and sucks them down, screaming back to Hell. It is more natural to assume that their praise and worship are expressions of gratitude for their ultimate redemption. The universal scope of those ultimately redeemed implies that their number is "uncountable (7:9-17)."

(2) But how do John’s visions perceive the mechanism of their redemption? Revelation 21 portrays the descent of the New Jerusalem which never actually lands on Earth and which is therefore clearly an image of Heaven. Its gates remain eternally open:

“Its gates will never be shut by day–and there is no night there (21:25).”

This image of eternally open gates implies traffic coming and going. But coming and going for what purpose? On what missions? The answer must surely be sought from John’s vision of what lies outside the gates: “Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood (22:15).” So the traffic coming and going through the eternally open gates seems to involve soul retrievals of the repentant damned, who are destined to join the heavenly chorus of 5:13. A comparison of 22:3 with 22:1-3 reveals that "the nations" or heathen are destined to be healed and to become the "peoples" of God. John's citation of Ezekiel 37:27 in Revelation 21:3 modifies Ezekiel's promise to the people of God into the plural "peoples" in anticipation of "the healing of the nations," a necessary condition for residence in Heaven, the New Jerusalem.

(3) But would early Christian apocalypticism have understood these texts to imply soul retrievals from Hell?
The next 2 Christian apocalypses after Revelation contain precisely this understanding in their depiction of the reaction of deceased saints to the absence of their damned loved ones from Heaven. These saints intercede for soul retrievals or outright reclamation of the damned from Hell and their petitions are granted (see Apocalypse of Peter 14 (125 AD); Sibylline Oracles II, 331-335 (150 AD)).

John’s imagery implies this glorious but never stated principle for God’s fulfillment of His redemptive purpose: Heaven cannot be Heaven for the redeemed whose essence is love as long as they remain aware of loved ones languishing in Hell. Your success is my success, but your failure is my failure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Giuliano
B

brakelite

Guest
Revelation presents this postmortem pattern: first death, first resurrection, 2nd death, second resurrection, but oddly fails to specify the occasion of the 2nd resurrection. "The first resurrection" happens after the millennial reign with Christ, however that be interpreted (20:5). What is important for this thread's purpose is the implication that there is an ensuing 2nd resurrection. Because the "2nd death" is "the lake of fire (20:8)," John's pattern implies that the 2nd resurrection must take the damned out of the lake of fire. But that would mean release from the lake of fire, which exists "into the ages of the ages (20:10)." So "Death and Hades" are permanently cast into "the lake of fire (20:14)," but not their victims, because our Messiah holds "the keys to Death and Hades (1:18)."

Does Revelation contain evidence for such an ultimate release? The answer is a thrilling Yes--evidence of at least 3 types.

(1) In the beginning of his apocalypse (1:7) John sets the stage for his universalist themes by extending the prophetic promise of Zechariah 12:10 to include not just "the inhabitants of Jerusalem," but also "all the tribes of the earth." The "wailing" of all the world's pagans must be understood as the mourning of repentance. This is clear from the universalist theme in the heavenly hymn in Revelation 5:13:

"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To the One who is seated on the throne and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!’’”

The expression "under the earth" refers to Hades, not to the then unknown continent of Australia! This hymn envisages every human, righteous and unrighteous alike, worshiping God and Christ. But it is absurd to assume that the damned will worship God and Christ only to await a lever to be pulled that opens the gates of darkness and sucks them down, screaming back to Hell. It is more natural to assume that their praise and worship are expressions of gratitude for their ultimate redemption. The universal scope of those ultimately redeemed implies that their number is "uncountable (7:9-17)."

(2) But how do John’s visions perceive the mechanism of their redemption? Revelation 21 portrays the descent of the New Jerusalem which never actually lands on Earth and which is therefore clearly an image of Heaven. Its gates remain eternally open:

“Its gates will never be shut by day–and there is no night there (21:25).”

This image of eternally open gates implies traffic coming and going. But coming and going for what purpose? On what missions? The answer must surely be sought from John’s vision of what lies outside the gates: “Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood (22:15).” So the traffic coming and going through the eternally open gates seems to involve soul retrievals of the repentant damned, who are destined to join the heavenly chorus of 5:13. A comparison of 22:3 with 22:1-3 reveals that "the nations" or heathen are destined to be healed and to become the "peoples" of God. John's citation of Ezekiel 37:27 in Revelation 21:3 modifies Ezekiel's promise to the people of God into the plural "peoples" in anticipation of "the healing of the nations," a necessary condition for residence in Heaven, the New Jerusalem.

(3) But would early Christian apocalypticism have understood these texts to imply soul retrievals from Hell?
The next 2 Christian apocalypses after Revelation contain precisely this understanding in their depiction of the reaction of deceased saints to the absence of their damned loved ones from Heaven. These saints intercede for soul retrievals or outright reclamation of the damned from Hell and their petitions are granted (see Apocalypse of Peter 14 (125 AD); Sibylline Oracles II, 331-335 (150 AD)).

John’s imagery implies this glorious but never stated principle for God’s fulfillment of His redemptive purpose: Heaven cannot be Heaven for the redeemed whose essence is love as long as they remain aware of loved ones languishing in Hell. Your success is my success, but your failure is my failure.
Consider this. Where were the wicked before they were judged worthy of the lake of fire? If they were cast into the lake, were they not of necessity be resurrected beforehand?
The righteous redeemed die, then are resurrected (the first) when Christ comes to take them home, along with the righteous living. The unrighteous die, and their resurrection takes place at the end of the millennium at the great White throne judgement (second resurrection) before being destroyed (second death).
 

Giuliano

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2019
5,978
3,676
113
Carlisle
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There will be no humanity left alive on earth during the 1,000 years, as the earth will have been devastated with the 7 last plagues, the earth itself will have been broken up by the greatest earthquake, the life in the seas will be destroyed, the forests burned, the cities broken down, mountains leveled to their root or torn and thrown up into the sea, the sky and atmosphere itself will have been burned up, passing away, and the only life left alive down here, will be the devil and his angels in the 'pit' (the abyssos, as it was in Genesis 1, without form and void), the wicked (humanity) consumed by the brightness of Jesus return in glory with all the holy angels, and the saints returned with Jesus unto Heaven for that time (Revelation 20:1-7; Isaiah 24, Psalms 37).

Isaiah 24:1 - Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

Isaiah 24:2 - And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.

Isaiah 24:3 - The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.

Isaiah 24:4 - The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.

Isaiah 24:5 - The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Isaiah 24:6 - Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Isaiah 24:17 - Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

Isaiah 24:18 - And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

Isaiah 24:19 - The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

Isaiah 24:20 - The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Isaiah 24:21 - And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

Isaiah 24:22 - And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Isaiah 34:1 - Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

Isaiah 34:2 - For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

Isaiah 34:3 - Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

Isaiah 34:4 - And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Isaiah 34:5 - For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

Isaiah 34:6 - The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

Isaiah 34:7 - And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

Isaiah 34:8 - For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Isaiah 34:9 - And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

Isaiah 34:10 - It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah 34:11 - But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.

Isaiah 34:12 - They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.

Isaiah 34:13 - And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.

Isaiah 34:14 - The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

Isaiah 34:15 - There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.

Isaiah 34:16 - Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

Isaiah 34:17 - And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.​
First let me apologize for being so tardy with my response. Second let me say I admit freely that many of the prophecies in the Old Testament are obscure to me and I often don't know if they should be taken literally in the physical sense, if they refer more to a spiritual reality, if they are metaphors or if they are hyperbole.

This passage from Isaiah, while promising widespread destruction (if read literally), also indicates life will go. Not one species of animal will go extinct according to verse 16, recalling how they were preserved in the days of Noah. The next chapter seems to be about the return of Israel following this widespread destruction, so I can't see how the entire human race could have gone out of existence. Remember too the promise God made after the Flood.

Genesis 3:21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Revelation indicates that the saints will be alive and reigning. I assume, myself, that's on the earth. They will also act as priests to others, and that suggests to me the saints are in relationships with others. They are helping educate others.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


If not on the earth, then where? Over whom would they be reigning?

The same chapter says that Satan will be bound for that thousand years so he can't keep deceiving the nations.

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

When the thousand years are over, everyone will have been taught the truth. Satan is freed; and people are then told to make a choice.
They can be and will be held accountable then in a way most are not now since people will know the truth, all of it.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
First let me apologize for being so tardy with my response. Second let me say I admit freely that many of the prophecies in the Old Testament are obscure to me and I often don't know if they should be taken literally in the physical sense, if they refer more to a spiritual reality, if they are metaphors or if they are hyperbole.

This passage from Isaiah, while promising widespread destruction (if read literally), also indicates life will go. Not one species of animal will go extinct according to verse 16, recalling how they were preserved in the days of Noah. The next chapter seems to be about the return of Israel following this widespread destruction, so I can't see how the entire human race could have gone out of existence. Remember too the promise God made after the Flood.

Genesis 3:21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Revelation indicates that the saints will be alive and reigning. I assume, myself, that's on the earth. They will also act as priests to others, and that suggests to me the saints are in relationships with others. They are helping educate others.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


If not on the earth, then where? Over whom would they be reigning?

The same chapter says that Satan will be bound for that thousand years so he can't keep deceiving the nations.

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

When the thousand years are over, everyone will have been taught the truth. Satan is freed; and people are then told to make a choice.
They can be and will be held accountable then in a way most are not now since people will know the truth, all of it.
I have an answer to this, but @ReChoired is more scripturally literate than I so will be able to offer a more comprehensive answer. Suffice to say that your take on the matter is not unique, but does hold some flaws. I would suggest that being a priest and reigning as Kings with Christ has a different meaning than simply ruling, and is more in harmony with judging, as per 1 Corinthians 6:3. There is much to be added to this for our time in heaven over that 1000 years is not spent simply having a good time. The will be a work to do in conjunction with the Lord, that by the end of the millennium all questions will be answered... Why did he/she miss out... What is he doing here... How come she made it?.... Why did You do this?... What happened that caused such in such to be allowed to do so much damage... Etc etc. This will be a high Court case in which all evidence will be submitted and men, such as you and I, will be given full access to scrutinise every detail. By the end, God's sentence upon the wicked will be totally vindicated and justice will not just be done, but seen to be done... There will be no further debate or doubts in the entire universe regarding God's character and the methods He used in dealing with the sin problem and Lucifer's rebellion. That word judge with relation to angels has a connecting sense to ruling as a king and priest.. Judging therefore in a spiritual paradigm and taking along with us our experience as eye witnesses to the drama.