The Real Tribulation

Christina said:

True words Irish

I find it utterly fascinating and telling that no one wants to address Dan. 11:24

Daniel 11:24] "He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: year, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time."

One of the most important verses in scripture to teach us how it will be when Antichrist comes so we are ready and forwarned
and we have deafening silence

Not sure why hearing what God actually says vs what religion and men say is not very important to anyone.,
Guess It might cause one to have to question what they have been told and/or come to believe.
guess its Amos 8:11-12 in action

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Hi Christina,

He certainly comes in peaceably, but that's not the way he exits, you know with the death of the two witnnesses and all. At this time he seems to have gained quite the access to the money markets, but not entirely for at this point there are still kings that are against him. Here is the thing that can cause division in bible studies, most or a lot of people think that satan comes down in all his regalia, and that he is an angel so not born of man. I also believe he is not born of man or passed through the flesh, but, this one here, (whom most consider the anti-christ) has fathers and fathers fathers,......this is geneology! So how would one resolve this problem? Just curious to see if anyone else has worked on this.

Irish

Irish said:

Hi Christina,

He certainly comes in peaceably, but that's not the way he exits, you know with the death of the two witnnesses and all. At this time he seems to have gained quite the access to the money markets, but not entirely for at this point there are still kings that are against him. Here is the thing that can cause division in bible studies, most or a lot of people think that satan comes down in all his regalia, and that he is an angel so not born of man. I also believe he is not born of man or passed through the flesh, but, this one here, (whom most consider the anti-christ) has fathers and fathers fathers,......this is geneology! So how would one resolve this problem? Just curious to see if anyone else has worked on this.

Irish

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Is the "death" of the "two" witnesses literal death or spiritual? Are the two witnesses two or many?

As far as Satan's genealogy....his offspring are through Cain and therein we find the number of the beast:

That is the number of the second beast, the beast from the earth for....it is man, not one man but many. They receive their power from the dragon because they are of the dragon.



The children of the devil are "numbered 666" in.....[Ezra 2:13]. They are the children of Adonikam, also termed Adonijah. He is a "type" for Satan himself.

whirlwind said:

Is the "death" of the "two" witnesses literal death or spiritual? Are the two witnesses two or many?

As far as Satan's genealogy....his offspring are through Cain and therein we find the number of the beast:

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. ​

That is the number of the second beast, the beast from the earth for....it is man, not one man but many. They receive their power from the dragon because they are of the dragon.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.​

The children of the devil are "numbered 666" in.....[Ezra 2:13]. They are the children of Adonikam, also termed Adonijah. He is a "type" for Satan himself.

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The mystery of the two witnesses is solved in part in Rev 1:20...

[sup]20[/sup]The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

So now we know the candlesticks are the churches and are seen in chapter 2 and 3 not apart from their angels.

Now in that Rev is written in Greek but all the figures of speech are Hebrew, we are warned to keep in mind of old Hebrew ways. As Bullinger would point out, the western reader has no idea of how to handle some of these things within his typical mindset.
The angel here is the Sheliach Tzibbur or the Angle of the assembly, which was the mouthpiece of the assembly (church)

Now when we look at Rev 11...


Revelation 11:3-4 (King James Version)


[sup]3[/sup]And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

[sup]4[/sup]These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.




We see the two candlesticks ( we know who they are now) but where is their angel? Where is their Sheliach Tzibbur? or spokesman or messenger or......yes, you have it.......two Olive Trees. A different appelative for a different sequence of events. You might as well look at these as a Pastor as such.

So the Olive trees ( or witnesses ) and the two candlesticks are both reckoned as the two witnesses. Many times in scripture men will have different titles depending on the subject at hand. Look at all the titles of our Father, look at all the names of satan, the point need not be labored.

There death is literal, in part because chapter 11 is exoteric, chapter 12 goes esoteric. In the exoteric you will see the literal.....





Irish

Irish said:

The mystery of the two witnesses is solved in part in Rev 1:20...

[sup]20[/sup]The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

So now we know the candlesticks are the churches and are seen in chapter 2 and 3 not apart from their angels.

Now in that Rev is written in Greek but all the figures of speech are Hebrew, we are warned to keep in mind of old Hebrew ways. As Bullinger would point out, the western reader has no idea of how to handle some of these things within his typical mindset.
The angel here is the Sheliach Tzibbur or the Angle of the assembly, which was the mouthpiece of the assembly (church)

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Which "angel here?" What is the "here" he is from? Where do you find his name and job?

Now when we look at Rev 11...


Revelation 11:3-4 (King James Version)


[sup]3[/sup]And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

[sup]4[/sup]These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.




We see the two candlesticks ( we know who they are now) but where is their angel? Where is their Sheliach Tzibbur? or spokesman or messenger or......yes, you have it.......two Olive Trees. A different appelative for a different sequence of events. You might as well look at these as a Pastor as such.

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I don't agree Irish. The "two olive trees," are....

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?​

As you stated, the two witnesses are made up of two candlesticks, which are the two churches He approved of out of the seven churches in Revelation. As that "two" represents two groups filled with lots of folks, lots of witnesses, the two olive trees also represent more than the literal number two. Scripture tells us the two olive trees are the wild and the natural....Israel and Gentiles.

So the Olive trees ( or witnesses ) and the two candlesticks are both reckoned as the two witnesses. Many times in scripture men will have different titles depending on the subject at hand. Look at all the titles of our Father, look at all the names of satan, the point need not be labored.

There death is literal, in part because chapter 11 is exoteric, chapter 12 goes esoteric. In the exoteric you will see the literal.....

Irish

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Until recently I saw the death as literal and accepted that. However, I couldn't reconcile the following verses (among others)....

1 Peter 2:24 Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Luke 21:17-19 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls.​

He took the stripes and He promises that "not an hair of your head perish." So, how can that be and at the same time we will be slain? It is because our death is spiritual. We must die to self, our old man/carnal nature must be crucified with Him:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.​

We are dead to self....He lives in us so....we are spiritually alive.

It is written the witnesses are killed, not that they die to self....

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.​

The question that raises is...who is this beast, how does he make war and how does he kill us? What is meant by being killed? Is it a physical, all out hand to hand combat with weapons and heads rolling down the street or...is it a spiritual war?