In Romans 6:23, death has been defined as eternal separation from God in some of the best Christian tracts.
But I believe that Matthew 25:46 is to be interpreted, not by Romans 6:23; but by Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?
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But I believe that Matthew 25:46 is to be interpreted, not by Romans 6:23; but by Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50.
Moreso, where are the wicked "cast"? The "Lake of Fire", and where is it? How long shall it exist, into the New Heavens and New Earth? Will it always remain outside New Jerusalem?
Please read these texts together, what do you see [ignore for a moment the chapter division]?
Revelation 20:14 KJB - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 KJB - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:2 KJB - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:3 KJB - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Revelation 21:4 KJB - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 KJB - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 20:15 KJB - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:2 KJB - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:3 KJB - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Revelation 21:4 KJB - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 KJB - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
While Revelation 21:1 KJB states that in the New Heaven and New Earth there will be no more "sea" [water, the vast chasm of] as such we have now [due to the flood of Noah], with restless waves, separating friends and loved ones, but instead broad rivers, etc, as per:
Isaiah 33:14 KJB - The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isaiah 33:15 KJB - He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isaiah 33:16 KJB - He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isaiah 33:17 KJB - Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
Isaiah 33:18 KJB - Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?
Isaiah 33:19 KJB - Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.
Isaiah 33:20 KJB - Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.
Isaiah 33:21 KJB - But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.
[see also Ezekiel 47:1-6 KJB]
Isaiah 33:22 KJB - For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.
Isaiah 33:23 KJB - Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail: then is the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.
Isaiah 33:24 KJB - And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.
Isaiah 33:23 KJB - Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail: then is the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.
Isaiah 33:24 KJB - And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.
The text also reveals that the "lake of fire", even the fiery "sea" will have passed away also [for to "pass away", is to "die"], for it was upon this old earth, look again [ignore the chapter break for a moment, just read it straight through]:
Revelation 20:14 KJB - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 KJB - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 20:15 KJB - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
In scripture, a "Sea" = "Lake" [whether of water, fire, etc]:
Luke 5:1 - "the lake of Gennesaret" [see "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11 KJB], [see also "Chinnereth" [Deuteronomy 3:17; Joshua 19:35 KJB]] or "sea of Chinneroth" [Joshua 12:3 KJB], or "of Gennesaret" [Matthew 14:34; Mark 6:53 KJB]; Matthew 8:27; Mark 4:39,41 KJB uses the word "sea" and John 6:1 says, "sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias".
The very word "lake" in the Koine Greek in Revelation 20:14,15 is λιμνην [limnen].
G3041 [only used in the Koine Greek of the NT, I didn't find it in the (so-called) LXX either]
λίμνη limnē
Total KJB Occurrences: 10
lake, 10
Luke 5:1-2 (2), 8:22-23 (2),33;
Revelation 19:20, 20:10,14-15 (2), 21:8
Revelation 19:20, 20:10,14-15 (2), 21:8
See also the alternate word for "sea":
G2281 [its also in the (so-called) LXX, in the very places of the "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11,12 (so-called) [LXX], etc]
θάλασσα thalassa
Total KJB Occurrences: 95
sea, 93
red [sea], 2
Mat_4:15, Mat_4:18 (2), Mat_8:24, Mat_8:26-27 (2), Mat_8:32, Mat_13:1, Mat_13:47, Mat_14:24-26 (3), Mat_15:29, Mat_17:27, Mat_18:6, Mat_21:21, Mar_1:15-16 (3), Mar_2:13, Mar_3:7, Mar_4:1 (3), Mar_4:39, Mar_4:41, Mar_5:1, Mar_5:13 (2), Mar_5:21, Mar_6:47-49 (3), Mar_7:31, Mar_9:42, Mar_11:23, Luk_17:2, Luk_17:6, Luk_21:25, Joh_6:1 (2), Joh_6:16-19 (4), Joh_6:22, Joh_6:25, Joh_21:1, Joh_21:7, Act_4:24, Act_7:36, Act_10:6, Act_10:32, Act_14:15, Act_17:14, Act_27:30, Act_27:38, Act_27:40, Act_28:4, Rom_9:27, 1Co_10:1-2 (2), 2Co_11:26, Heb_11:12, Heb_11:29, Jas_1:6, Jud_1:13, Rev_4:6, Rev_5:13, Rev_7:1-3 (3), Rev_8:8-9 (3), Rev_10:2, Rev_10:5-6 (2), Rev_10:8, Rev_12:12, Rev_13:1 (2), Rev_14:7, Rev_16:2-3 (4), Rev_18:17, Rev_18:19, Rev_18:21, Rev_20:8, Rev_20:13, Rev_21:1
red [sea], 2
Act_7:36, Heb_11:29
So, according to your present belief, if we think this through, teaches that all of the wicked [sinners and sin] who have ever existed, including satan himself, will have eternal existence [being sustained by God, by continuous miracle] 'Outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.....'. I assume you refer to Revelation 22:15 KJB in such a position? If so, you may want to reconsider the context of the text itself.
Can you tell me then, according to such a belief, where [the specific location] is the New Jersualem, during this eternal existence of the wicked, once the wicked are cast into the "lake of fire", being 'Outside the gates of the New Jerusalem', surrounding the city itself?
Revelation 20:9 KJB - And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 21:2 KJB - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:10 KJB - And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Revelation 21:25 KJB - And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Revelation 22:14 KJB - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Revelation 21:2 KJB - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:10 KJB - And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Revelation 21:25 KJB - And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Revelation 22:14 KJB - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
From what I read, according to the texts, the New Jerusalem, comes down from God out of Heaven, and lands upon the earth [old], and remains there [even while God re-creates the earth around it after the "lake of fire" event].
Are you telling me, that all of the wicked who have ever lived will be permanently existing outside of the New Jerusalem for all of eternity, in this vast "lake of fire", which would cover the entire face of the New Earth [as it is anti-type to Noah; and think of how many billions have existed since "cain"]? If so, it sounds like such a teaching as that has the wicked inheriting the position of existing all over the face of the New Earth. Does the righteous, in your belief, ever inherit the entire New Earth just for themselves where there is no more pain, etc? Or do you envision this "lake of fire" eternally existing outside of the New Jerusalem, being in view throughout eternity?
Where then is the "lake of Fire" locationally, in this 'eternity' of yours?
The "lake of fire" could not just be 'anywhere'. That is incorrect according to the scriptures cited before you. It is clearly just outside and surrounding the New Jerusalem, once it comes down from God out of Heaven and rests upon this [old] earth:
Revelation 20:9 KJB - And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:10 KJB - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 KJB - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
As for some peoples wild escape plan theology, to avoid these obvious conclusoins, in a desparate attempt, say it exists in 'another dimension'! That is also not scriptural [KJB], and is "sci-fi" [science falsely so called; 1 Timothy 6:20 KJB], and they simply made it up [or borrowed it] to escape the inevitable conclusion of my pointed questions, and the clearly cited texts and evidences. They are self-deceiving themselves at this point if they choose to go thereof, and unless they repent, they can only become more and more blind to scripture [KJB]. I do not joke. Please, do not do this. I am begging all, please, humble yourself before God, and go to Him, kneeling in prayer, asking Him for the truth of the matter before it is too late about these texts, for I fear that if any continue this route, they will do exactly as they of old did to Jesus, thinking they did God service.
The "lake of fire" is entirely visible to those inside of the New Jerusalem [once it comes down and the fire falls and comes up], for the whole universe must witness the final result of the punishment and the wages for sin, so that sin will never arise again,
Psalms 91:8 KJB - Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
What others say of the matter or think of the matter, is irrelevant. What matters is what scripture [KJB] says and teaches.
It is for us to know right now, for God hath spoken it even from the beginning:
Deuteronomy 29:29 KJB - The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
The "lake of fire" and its location, and how it comes about [fire from Heaven above, and from within the earth, as like unto the days of Noah with the waters, with the New Jerusalem resting above it all, all of the saved inside, preserved through it], is no secret, but plainly revealed, but will you accept what it says and teaches, along with the results thereof, or will you continue to put forth non-scriptural ideology? Your escape is cut off, there is no where for you to go, but through this fiery questioning, until you acknowledge the truth. Cauterize the festering and stinking wound of pride.
Psalms 140:10 KJB - Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.
Psalms 11:6 KJB - Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
Psalms 7:9 KJB - Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.
Malachi 4:1 KJB - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Psalms 11:6 KJB - Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
Psalms 7:9 KJB - Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.
Malachi 4:1 KJB - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Even using your Jesuit definition, for Romans 6:23 says no such thing:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
, but again, even using your definition, God is life, and apart from Him there is no life (period); it is non-existence.
Your theology is Roman Catholic, not scriptural:
"...is the doctrine of spirituality. ... Dualism ... Plato ... Platonic Dualism ... " [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "S", "Soul"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Soul
"... For positive evidence, however, that the soul will continue after death in the possession of a conscious life, we must appeal to teleology and the consideration of the character of the universe as a whole. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "I"; "Immortality"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immortality
You might say, "That the 2nd death is only eternal separation from God.", well, that's up to you of course, if you do not mind advocating Roman Catholic Jesuit doctrine, from the council of Trent:
So, what you are telling me is, that you actually teach Jesuit Roman Catholic doctrine, passing it off as scripture [KJB]?
Roman Catholic Online Catechism -
"... 1033 ... To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." ..."
"... 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. ..."
"... 1057 Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. ..." - Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in life everlasting
Commonly understood:
"... But now the Catholic authorities in Rome have presented a strikingly different (and seemingly modern) picture of eternal damnation.
By their account, hell is best understood as the condition of total alienation from all that is good, hopeful and loving in the world. What's more, this condition is chosen by the damned themselves, the ultimate exercise of free will, not a punishment engineered by God.
Hell ''is not a 'place' but a 'state,' a person's 'state of being,' in which a person suffers from the deprivation of God,'' declared La Civilta Cattolica, an influential Jesuit magazine based in Rome and closely tied to the Vatican, in a long editorial in July. ..." - Hell Is Getting A Makeover From Catholics; Jesuits Call It a Painful State But Not a Sulfurous Place
It is why I specifically asked you about the "location" of the "Lake of Fire", and the "location" of all the wicked in Revelation 20.By their account, hell is best understood as the condition of total alienation from all that is good, hopeful and loving in the world. What's more, this condition is chosen by the damned themselves, the ultimate exercise of free will, not a punishment engineered by God.
Hell ''is not a 'place' but a 'state,' a person's 'state of being,' in which a person suffers from the deprivation of God,'' declared La Civilta Cattolica, an influential Jesuit magazine based in Rome and closely tied to the Vatican, in a long editorial in July. ..." - Hell Is Getting A Makeover From Catholics; Jesuits Call It a Painful State But Not a Sulfurous Place
Again, I would bring up Isaiah 33:14:
Isa 33:14, The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
If your pov is correct, then there is no reason for the hypocrite to be surprised by the fear spoken of in this verse.
Isa 33:14, The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
If your pov is correct, then there is no reason for the hypocrite to be surprised by the fear spoken of in this verse.
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Getitright
Active Member
What's the context in which the statement was made. We need the context to know what the passage is talking about.
Getitright
Active Member
And I would say that the lake of fire is certainly to be found outside of the New Jerusalem...it is certainly not going to be found within the walls thereof...
And yes, "lake of fire", "outer darkness", "furnace of fire" all speak parabolically of the suffering that will be experienced in eternity by those who are separated from the Lord and all that is good.
And yes, "lake of fire", "outer darkness", "furnace of fire" all speak parabolically of the suffering that will be experienced in eternity by those who are separated from the Lord and all that is good.
Pro 22:1, A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold.
Pro 22:2, The rich and poor meet together: the LORD is the maker of them all.
Pro 22:3, A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.
Pro 22:4, By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life.
Pro 22:5, Thorns and snares are in the way of the froward: he that doth keep his soul shall be far from them.
Pro 22:6, Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Pro 22:7, The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.
Pro 22:8, He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.
Pro 22:9, He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor.
Pro 22:10, Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.
Pro 22:11, He that loveth pureness of heart, for the grace of his lips the king shall be his friend.
Pro 22:12, The eyes of the LORD preserve knowledge, and he overthroweth the words of the transgressor.
Pro 22:13, The slothful man saith, There is a lion without, I shall be slain in the streets.
Pro 22:14, The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein.
Pro 22:15, Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Pro 22:16, He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.
Pro 22:17, Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply thine heart unto my knowledge.
Pro 22:18, For it is a pleasant thing if thou keep them within thee; they shall withal be fitted in thy lips.
Pro 22:19, That thy trust may be in the LORD, I have made known to thee this day, even to thee.
Pro 22:20, Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,
Pro 22:21, That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?
Pro 22:22, Rob not the poor, because he is poor: neither oppress the afflicted in the gate:
Pro 22:23, For the LORD will plead their cause, and spoil the soul of those that spoiled them.
Pro 22:24, Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go:
Pro 22:25, Lest thou learn his ways, and get a snare to thy soul.
Pro 22:26, Be not thou one of them that strike hands, or of them that are sureties for debts.
Pro 22:27, If thou hast nothing to pay, why should he take away thy bed from under thee?
Pro 22:28, Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set.
Pro 22:29, Seest thou a man diligent in his business? he shall stand before kings; he shall not stand before mean men.
Pro 22:2, The rich and poor meet together: the LORD is the maker of them all.
Pro 22:3, A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.
Pro 22:4, By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life.
Pro 22:5, Thorns and snares are in the way of the froward: he that doth keep his soul shall be far from them.
Pro 22:6, Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Pro 22:7, The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.
Pro 22:8, He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.
Pro 22:9, He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor.
Pro 22:10, Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.
Pro 22:11, He that loveth pureness of heart, for the grace of his lips the king shall be his friend.
Pro 22:12, The eyes of the LORD preserve knowledge, and he overthroweth the words of the transgressor.
Pro 22:13, The slothful man saith, There is a lion without, I shall be slain in the streets.
Pro 22:14, The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein.
Pro 22:15, Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Pro 22:16, He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.
Pro 22:17, Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply thine heart unto my knowledge.
Pro 22:18, For it is a pleasant thing if thou keep them within thee; they shall withal be fitted in thy lips.
Pro 22:19, That thy trust may be in the LORD, I have made known to thee this day, even to thee.
Pro 22:20, Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,
Pro 22:21, That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?
Pro 22:22, Rob not the poor, because he is poor: neither oppress the afflicted in the gate:
Pro 22:23, For the LORD will plead their cause, and spoil the soul of those that spoiled them.
Pro 22:24, Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go:
Pro 22:25, Lest thou learn his ways, and get a snare to thy soul.
Pro 22:26, Be not thou one of them that strike hands, or of them that are sureties for debts.
Pro 22:27, If thou hast nothing to pay, why should he take away thy bed from under thee?
Pro 22:28, Remove not the ancient landmark, which thy fathers have set.
Pro 22:29, Seest thou a man diligent in his business? he shall stand before kings; he shall not stand before mean men.
I believe that Proverbs is an exception to the rule of context is king; in that each verse stands alone as a singular Proverb in Solomon's table.
(I do also believe that this is true of scripture across the board, that every verse is never nullified by its context but that every verse in the Bible stands alone as a bastion of spiritual truth).
(I do also believe that this is true of scripture across the board, that every verse is never nullified by its context but that every verse in the Bible stands alone as a bastion of spiritual truth).
That verse is about the Righteous, not the wicked, as it is asking who then can dwell with God, the everlasting burning, the all consuming fire, not the wicked for they are stubble, devoured and burnt up unto nothing, ashes, but the righteous are indwelt by God as at the burning bush
Isa 33:10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
Isa 33:11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
Isa 33:12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
Isa 33:13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
Isa 33:11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
Isa 33:12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
Isa 33:13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
For God is the consuming fire of Love.
Mat 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
For the righteous, his waters shall be sure; he is not facing the flames of torment.
But I think that we have established the concept of conscious torment in hell, even if only for one aion?
Yes, the 'departing' is into the 'lake of fire' that consumes them unto ashes. They do not simply 'leave' God and go dwell somewhere forever in torment. The passage connects right back to Matthew 25, which we have already shown that "everlasting punishment" is not "torment", but "death"
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Jesus speaking:
Psa_139:19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
Notice the passage cited said nothing about "torment" for the Righteous, for the flames of God's indwelling presence is the heat/warmth of Love, a blazing fire of righteous and holy life.
Told you already that Seventh-day Adventists teach the scriptural torment in hellfire, for its proper "season", after which they shall forever "pass away".
Rev_20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
New Jerusalem, is a real tangible city, that is going to come down to this earth and sit in the place where the mount of Olives is presently, see Zechariah 14, Revelation 20-22.
Then you say that the "lake of fire" is "parabolically"?
Again, that is the Jesuit, Council of Trent teaching as cited already.
You just stated that the "lake of fire is certainly to be found outside of the New Jerusalem".
This New Jerusalem will be upon the earth, before God makes this earth and heaven New.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
The "lake of fire" will even be upon the whole surface of the earth, even in the place where you, personally, now sit/stand.Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
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