Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

ReChoired · Jan 2, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
I believe there will be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous during the 1000 years but not after the 1000 years if that's what you're saying. I believe those who are thrown into the lake of fire are those that after Satan and his demons are released from the Abyss after the thousand years for a short period of time are those humans who were born during the 1000 years and those who were considered unrighteous when resurrected during the 1000 years but are now perfect humans who have been tempted to follow Satan. I believe that because those who were born during the 1000 years and haven't been tempted by Satan and those unrighteous when resurrected during the 1000 years who also haven't been tempted by Satan to see if they will remain in the truth, many of these will sin. These are the ones who will be destroyed by fire from heaven and thrown into the lake of fire along with Satan and his demons and where death and Hades was thrown into.

The belief you have expressed is WTS/JW theology. Therefore, would you mind me asking you some questions in regards that belief?

Why do you believe that human beings will be alive on earth during the 1,000 years?

What scriptures do you have that state this theological position? Please present those, in full, thank you.

From what I read in scripture, no human beings will be alive on earth during the greater period of the 1,000 years. If you are interested, I can share those texts I base that theology on with you.

mjrhealth · Jan 2, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Obviously you didn't read what I said concerning the phrase, "before the foundation of the world and what it means. You seem to believe that it's talking about before God created this planet, which is your right to believe, I just don't agree with that. I believe the phrase, "before the foundation of the world," is talking about a time period after Adam and Eve sinned but before they started having children.

Thats really nice wont change any one getting saved. Pointless discussion. Adam was not the foundation of teh world.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Jan 2, 2020

Getitright said:
I don't recall seeing anything in Scripture about memorial tombs. I wasn't implying torture. Unless you can show where these memorial tombs are mentioned I'll have to stick with, all who hear His voice will come out of their graves. I've not seen anything in Scripture that would indicate anyone is exempt.[/QUOTE\]

It seems like you're saying no one can have their copy or version of the Bible except the one you use. You have a right to your version and how it's translated but your version isn't the only version and I myself am not going to judge what version a person should use or not use.

MEMORIAL TOMB
burial place in which the remains of a deceased person were placed. This term renders the Greek word mne·meiʹon, which comes from the verb “to remind,” suggesting that the person who has died is remembered.—Joh 5:28, 29.
Wouldn't this be true of God when it comes to those who are laid in these memorial tombs that he would remember them when the resurrection begins?

Getitright · Jan 2, 2020

It seems like you're saying no one can have their copy or version of the Bible except the one you use. You have a right to your version and how it's translated but your version isn't the only version and I myself am not going to judge what version a person should use or not use.[/quote]

I don't know where you got this from. I didn't say anything about any version.

MEMORIAL TOMB
burial place in which the remains of a deceased person were placed. This term renders the Greek word mne·meiʹon, which comes from the verb “to remind,” suggesting that the person who has died is remembered.—Joh 5:28, 29.
Wouldn't this be true of God when it comes to those who are laid in these memorial tombs that he would remember them when the resurrection begins?

Yeah, what indication do you see that it is only the righteous?

BARNEY BRIGHT · Jan 2, 2020

ReChoired said:
The belief you have expressed is WTS/JW theology. Therefore, would you mind me asking you some questions in regards that belief?

Why do you believe that human beings will be alive on earth during the 1,000 years?

What scriptures do you have that state this theological position? Please present those, in full, thank you.

From what I read in scripture, no human beings will be alive on earth during the greater period of the 1,000 years. If you are interested, I can share those texts I base that theology on with you.

Well anyone who truly wants to know what, as you call it, the WTS/JWTheory is, can get the JW App (JW.org) and find out for themselves what they're saying on these matters. I think it strange that people don't know the Jehovah's witnesses have an app that costs you nothing to download and use. If people are truly interested in what they are saying, why not download the app and find out for yourself.

Let me say this though, I know what people are saying about the watchtower therefore about all us witnesses. Yes I'm a Jehovah's witness. But that just shows me that there are way too many people in this world who think they are infallible like God and therefore can't possibly be wrong in what they believe or how they interpret scriptures or reason on the Bible. I will never speak out in any way against a person or persons exercising there rights as human beings to what their beliefs are or how they choose to interpret scriptures or reason on the scriptures, but other person's do have the right to disagree with you. I agree we should be respectful when disagreeing.

ReChoired · Jan 2, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
Well anyone who truly wants to know what, as you call it, the WTS/JWTheory is, can get the JW App (JW.org) and find out for themselves what they're saying on these matters. I think it strange that people don't know the Jehovah's witnesses have an app that costs you nothing to download and use. If people are truly interested in what they are saying, why not download the app and find out for yourself.

Let me say this though, I know what people are saying about the watchtower therefore about all us witnesses. Yes I'm a Jehovah's witness. But that just shows me that there are way too many people in this world who think they are infallible like God and therefore can't possibly be wrong in what they believe or how they interpret scriptures or reason on the Bible. I will never speak out in any way against a person or persons exercising there rights as human beings to what their beliefs are or how they choose to interpret scriptures or reason on the scriptures, but other person's do have the right to disagree with you. I agree we should be respectful when disagreeing.

I don't desire a third party app on my PC, and am very careful about what is and is not installed on it. I have 5 Terrabytes of precious data, and do not need any of it lost through negligence upon my part due to an unknown app.

However, if you can please express the belief that you hold on the subject, with scripture? I find that those who cannot express their belief by scripture and rely upon someone else, do not really understand what they believe or the reasons why, which is why I started this thread - Y do U believe what U believe, and do U have good reasons 4 those beliefs? - let's find out.

I was interested in why you believe what you do, which is why I personally asked you Barney. Will you answer the questions?

Why do you believe that human beings will be alive on earth during the 1,000 years?

What scriptures do you have that state this theological position?

Please present those, in full, thank you.

I have been to WTS/JW.org on many occasions and have found that they do not respond to questions asked, but merely point to AWAKE, What does the Bible really teach (which I have a copy of on my shelf, having read it in full) or Pay attention to Daniel's prophecy (which I have a copy of on my shelf, and having read it in full) or other magazine articles, and once in while to something more substantial. There are errors in those materials, and contradictions within them (just ask, I'll share with you, the pages and quotation from them from my own copy).

BARNEY BRIGHT · Jan 2, 2020

mjrhealth said:
Thats really nice wont change any one getting saved. Pointless discussion. Adam was not the foundation of teh world.

I don't think I said Adam was the foundation of the world. I think I was saying that the phrase, before the foundation of the world in the subject we were discussing is that I said I believe it to be a time period after Adam and Eve sinned but before they started having children. Saying Adam was the foundation of the world doesn't even go along with what I'm trying to say. Obviously there's a misunderstanding concerning what I wrote. I'm actually saying that Able is from the beginning of the foundation of the world not Adam. The scriptures say that Able not Adam is from the foundation of the world. So it seems to me that would be speaking of redeemable mankind. When these ) scriptures containing the phrase before the foundation of the world we're talking about redeemable mankind. I don't believe Adam and Eve to belong to redeemable mankind. What excuse can they give for disobeying God. What excuse could they give for siding with a person(serpent who is Satan) who calls God a liar, an unjust and uncaring person and therefore a bad ruler over mankind. Seriously what excuse can they give? Also when they were confronted by God neither of them seemed to be repentant. Adam not only blamed his wife but God as well it seems to me. So in the subject we're discussing concerning the phrase, before the foundation of the world I'm not saying Adam is the foundation of the world.

ReChoired · Jan 3, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
I don't think I said Adam was the foundation of the world. ...

That is because you subscribe to the WTS teaching on creation, which tries to marry uniformitarianism, into it, through 'ages' in the 'days' of Genesis. For instance, the WTS places death (animal) in the world before Adam's sin:

“... Did Adam understand that prohibition? He knew what death was; he had seen animals die. If Adam were created to die eventually, God’s warning would have had little meaning. Instead, Adam realized that if he obeyed God and did not eat from that tree, he would live on endlessly—he would not die. ...” - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20150301/jesus-death-and-resurrection/

I had asked this to a younger Jehovah's Witness, and they had replied with:

"... from Adam's creation until the great flood, there were 1,656 years ..." - https://www.jw.org/en/library/books...b-6d102055c05e&insight[search_result_index]=0

But that statement does not directly address when the WTS/JW believe the earth (not Adam) to have been created. For digging deeper we read that the WTS website JW [org] utilizes Psalms 90:4 in combination with the account of Genesis, saying,

"... Evidently, these “days” of creation lasted many thousands of years. - Psalms 90:4." [1]

and

"... Length of the six days of creation. Some creationists assert that the six days of creation were literal 24-hour days. But the word “day” in the Bible can refer to a considerable length of time.—Genesis 2:4; Psalm 90:4.

Age of the earth. Some creationists teach that the earth is just a few thousand years old. However, according to the Bible, the earth and the universe existed before the six days of creation. (Genesis 1:1) For that reason, Jehovah’s Witnesses have no objection to credible scientific research that indicates the earth may be billions of years old. ..." - [2], and the NWT Psalm 90:4, says, "For a thousand years are in your eyes just as yesterday when it is past,fJust as a watch during the night." [3], wherein the note "f", cites the NWT 2 Peter 3:8, "8 However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." - [4]

The WTS, in citing Psalm 90:4, related to 2 Peter 3:8, states that "one day" (in Genesis) is "as a thousand years" applies to the "length of the six days of creation" of Genesis 1. Thus they (WTS/JW) teach, in some instances (some place it much older) that Adam came after 6,000 years (6 days).

See, in one place they say it is calculable (thousands) using Psalms and 2 Peter, but in another they say "indefinite" and "billion/s":

"... God created the universe, including the earth, in the indefinite past—“in the beginning,” as Genesis 1:1 says. Modern science agrees that the universe had a beginning. A recent scientific model suggests it to be almost 14 billion years old.

The Bible also describes six “days” of creation. However, it does not say that these were 24-hour days. ..." - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201401/creation/

Further, in another place:

***The New Creation , Volume VI of Studies in the Scriptures, 1904, p. 19***

We believe our readers will agree that although the length of these epoch-days is not indicated, we will be justified in assuming that they were uniform periods, because of their close identity as members of the one creative week. Hence, if we can gain reasonable proof of the length of one of these days, we will be fully justified in assuming that the others were of the same duration. We do, then, find satisfactory evidence that one of these creative "days" was a period of seven thousand years and, hence, that the entire creative week would be 7,000 x 7 equals 49,000 years. And although this period is infinitesimal when compared with some geological guesses, it is, we believe, quite reasonably ample for the work represented as being accomplished therein—the ordering and filling of the earth, which already "was" in existence, but "without form [order], and void [empty]." - The New Creation by Charles Taze Russell : Charles Taze Russell : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

WTS, continues saying:

"There is no direct reference to dinosaurs in the Bible. ... Without mentioning dinosaurs specifically, the Bible does refer to groups of creatures that may include them: ...

... In any case, the terms “Behemoth” and “Leviathan” cannot refer to dinosaurs. God told Job to observe these animals personally, and Job lived long after the dinosaurs had passed off the scene.—Job 40:16; 41:8. ...

... The Bible does not comment on the disappearance of the dinosaurs." - [1]

Again:

"... Awake! February 8, 1990, Vol. 71, No. 3

"Before 1824, dinosaurs were unknown to man. ..."

"... Dinosaurs played a dominant role in life on earth during their age. But then came to an end. The rock layers containing human fossils consistently occur above those layers containing dinosaur fossils. Because of this, scientists generally conlcude that humans came on the earthly scene later. ..."

"... The book A Vanished World: The Dinosaurs of Western Canada sates that "all of the 11 major kinds of dinosaurs ... ceased to exist in the western interior at about the same time." This, and the fact that human bones have not been found with dinosaur bones, is why most scientists conclude that the Age of Dinosaurs ended before humans came on the scene. ... no one on earth today really knows all the answers."

"Of all the life-forms now extinct, dinosaurs ..."

"... Dinosaur bones are regularly found in lower earth layers than are human bones, leading many to conclude that they belong to an eariler time period. ..."

"... In contrast, the Bible account in the first chapter of Genesis simply states the general order of creation. It allows for possibly thousands of millions of years for the formation of the earth and many millenniums in six creative eras, or "days," to prepare the earth for human habitation. ..."

"... when the fossil is considered to be about 50,000 years old ..."

"... When the dinosaurs had fulfilled their purpose, God ended their life. ..." - https://jwtalk.net/forums/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=17174

Those statements may be shown to be in error, from scripture and history itself, and are contradictory to one another.

mjrhealth · Jan 3, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
What excuse can they give for disobeying God

Do you have one????

mjrhealth · Jan 3, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
What excuse could they give for siding with a person(serpent who is Satan) who calls God a liar, an unjust and uncaring person and therefore a bad ruler over mankind. Seriously what excuse can they give? Also when they were confronted by God neither of them seemed to be repentant.

What excuse do you have. We have children yo tell them, dont touch the fire it will burn you, what do they do?? Adam and Eve will be redeemed, we have the now have most of the story, they had no idea what was to befall them. and yet mankind still sides up to the devil even with all we have being shown.

As for JW's I have had some good conversations with them, but it always ends the same, so you must agree that Jesus has a church.. oh please go away, every religion on this planet uses that lie to justify there existence.

The last time I saw them, they thanked me for letting them in, they said very few people will, and I told them. all you have to offer the people is your religion, go and Find Christ, and when you offer them Him, it will be a different story. People need salvation not religion.

All you preach is your religions interpretation of the bible, just as all the religions of this earth do. That will change when Christ come and the people see how they where lied to..

justbyfaith · Jan 3, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
What I know is you will twist what a person says by only quoting only part of what I wrote. If you going to quote me quote all of it not just part of it. Also admit you're like the rest of us and you're an imperfect human like the rest of us and you're not infallible when it comes to your beliefs and the way you reason on the scriptures. You have a right to your beliefs and the way you reason on the scriptures but since you're like the rest of us an you're an imperfect person who isn't infallible therefore what you believe isn't necessarily true , nor is it necessarily true how you reason on the scriptures.

With all the scriptures that you quoted to me you haven't in any way proved from those scriptures that what you believe about them or how you interpret them or reason on them is proving your point. All I see you doing is interpreting them according to your beliefs and reasoning on the the scriptures and that's your right. I'm not going to fault you for exercising your right but I don't have to agree with you if I truly don't agree with you. I understand what many people believe concerning that phrase, "before the foundation of the world," some Bibles translate it, "before the founding of the world." But that doesn't mean, at least if you go by all the scriptures, that phrase means before the beginning of time. It can mean after Adam and Eve sinned but before they produced children.

Considering the following scriptures:

Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I would encourage the reader to understand that my interpretation of these scriptures may indeed be valid; that the nature of everlasting punishment is that it is as a furnace of fire where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

i.e. eternal conscious torment.

If my interpretation may be invalid, then yours also may be invalid; in which case my interpretation would be valid.

justbyfaith · Jan 3, 2020

The 144,000 are said to be Jewish, 12,000 from every tribe except Dan; in Revelation chapter 7.

justbyfaith · Jan 3, 2020

How will we reign with Christ during the millennial period if we are not alive on the earth?

ReChoired · Jan 3, 2020

justbyfaith said:
How will we reign with Christ during the millennial period if we are not alive on the earth?

The reign takes place in Heaven. Most people have a misunderstanding of the word "reign" in that context, but scripture defines that "reign" for us.

Look at the passages in Revelation, which speak of "reign", and notice the location, of each:

The “reign upon the earth” comes after 1,000 years [Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7], for the “saints” must be both resurrected and/or translated, glorified, and brought back to Heaven [John 14:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17, etc] at the Second Advent and First Great Resurrection, to “reign” in Heaven, for 1,000 years [Revelation 20:4,5a,6] going over the record books of the lost [1 Corinthians 6:2,3; Psalms 149:1-9]:

[1] The “thousand years” reign “in Heaven” [Psalms 50:5; Matthew 5:3,8,10,12, 6:20, 13:30, 24:31; Mark 10:21, 13:27; Luke 6:23, 18:22, 23:43; John 14:2-3, 17:24; Colossians 1:5; Hebrews 10:34; 1 Peter 1:4; Revelation 7:9, 14:3, 19:1; “Paradise”, Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7] with Christ Jesus [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 20:6] and

[2] The “reign on earth” [“made new”, not this sin polluted Earth; 2 Peter 3:13; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22; Revelation 21:1] that lasts “forever and ever” [Revelation 5:10; “meek inherit earth” [“made new”, not this sin polluted Earth], Psalms 37:9,11,34; Proverbs 11:31; Isaiah 25:8, 65:21; Daniel 7:27; Matthew 5:5; Revelation 5:10].

Did you notice the two "reigns"?

[1] limited in time, 1,000 years
[2] infinite in time, 'for ever and ever'

It's kinda like an ascension year, and the full reign afterward.

For instance, look at these texts, and ask yourself, do they say anywhere, in their text or its contexts, that the "reign" spoken of in it, it takes place on earth:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Remember, John 14:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17, etc, speak of Jesus second advent:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The saints, translated and resurrected, go "up" and return with Jesus back unto the Father in Heaven, for the duration of the 1,000 years, while the earth remains broken down by the seven last plagues, greatest earthquake, sun and moon being moved out of their places, and the atmosphere being torn asunder, and all the cities broken down and mountains uprooted, seas turned to blood, etc.

It is not until after the 1,000 years that all the saints with Jesus and New Jerusalem return to earth and come down:

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Two Jerusalem's will face each other. Old Jerusalem to the west of the Mount of Olives, and New Jerusalem, which will have come down with Jesus and the saints, to the East of Old Jerusalem.

There is no text in scripture which states that the saints "reign" upon the earth for 1,000 years, and every text which shows that they cannot.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Jan 3, 2020

mjrhealth said:
What excuse do you have. We have children yo tell them, dont touch the fire it will burn you, what do they do?? Adam and Eve will be redeemed, we have the now have most of the story, they had no idea what was to befall them. and yet mankind still sides up to the devil even with all we have being shown.

As for JW's I have had some good conversations with them, but it always ends the same, so you must agree that Jesus has a church.. oh please go away, every religion on this planet uses that lie to justify there existence.

The last time I saw them, they thanked me for letting them in, they said very few people will, and I told them. all you have to offer the people is your religion, go and Find Christ, and when you offer them Him, it will be a different story. People need salvation not religion.

All you preach is your religions interpretation of the bible, just as all the religions of this earth do. That will change when Christ come and the people see how they where lied to..

Yes I understand how you believe, I've met many like you, grew up with many like you. You know what I didn't know about them? That they, like so many today, believe Jesus Christ to be God, not the Only Begotten Son of God as the scriptures say he is. People can believe as they want, that's their right.The scriptures show us exactly how much Jesus loved his Father who is the Only True God. We are to follow his example. The scriptures are not teaching a religion, they teach a way of life that yes includes having a personal relationship with Jehovah God. If you truly have a personal relationship with Jehovah God then you acknowledge that the True God Jehovah has made his Only Begotten Son who's name is Jesus Christ our Lord and King and that it's that kingdom arrangement(Messianic kingdom) that Jehovah God through his Only Begotten Son will undo everything that Satan has done. I have loving faith in the True God Jehovah that this will be.

You speak out against Jehovah's Witnesses for having their interpretation of the scriptures as you call it, well you, just as the people I grew up with are guilty of the same thing. Do you think people should be judged for having their interpretation of the scriptures? I think everyone has a right to their interpretation of the scriptures I just think everyone else on the planet has that same right. We should never judge or persecute people for exercising that same right but we must also acknowledge people's right to disagree with us. They should do it respectfully of course but they shouldn't as I said be judged or persecuted for exercising the same rights.

Hobie · Jan 3, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Considering the following scriptures:

Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I would encourage the reader to understand that my interpretation of these scriptures may indeed be valid; that the nature of everlasting punishment is that it is as a furnace of fire where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

i.e. eternal conscious torment.

If my interpretation may be invalid, then yours also may be invalid; in which case my interpretation would be valid.

But would a God of love leave you to remain and burn in anguish and extreme pain and suffering for all eternity. Is a God of love going to torture the lost with fire for the ceaseless ages to come, for less than living a few years in which they committed sin. Does this sound like love, not one bit. So what does the Bible teach us...

John 3:16 ...'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.'

So few people actually look closely and understand at what it is saying! There are only 2 options for us. One is to follow Christ Jesus and be given eternal life. The other is to not follow Christ Jesus and what, 'perish'. We all know what perish means, to be destroyed, nothing left, to be completely gone.

The wicked lost will be judged and punished with "hell fire", which Revelation chapters 19 and 20 describes as the "lake of fire". Look what scripture says of the wicked in this fire..

Malachi 4:1 King James Version (KJV)
"4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch"

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)
"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

So that fire will "burn them up" and they will die the "second death", so the wicked will perish and not be given a "eternal life", that is for the saints.

Jude 20-21 King James Version (KJV)
"20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

BARNEY BRIGHT · Jan 3, 2020

ReChoired, post: 673519, member: 8441"]That is because you subscribe to the WTS teaching on creation, which tries to marry uniformitarianism, into it, through 'ages' in the 'days' of Genesis. For instance, the WTS places death (animal) in the world before Adam's sin:

“... Did Adam understand that prohibition? He knew what death was; he had seen animals die. If Adam were created to die eventually, God’s warning would have had little meaning. Instead, Adam realized that if he obeyed God and did not eat from that tree, he would live on endlessly—he would not die. ...” - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20150301/jesus-death-and-resurrection[/QUOTE\]

All the WTS is saying here is that after God created the animals and told them to be fruitful and multiply that the animals would age and die while producing offspring who also would age and die while producing offspring. I challenge you or anyone else to show me in scripture that God offered eternal life to the animals. God didn't create the animals in his image or likeness. God created Adam therefore man in his image and likeness. God offered eternal life to Adam therefore mankind. If you think Adam was some ignorant brute who didn't have a clue or understand what God was saying when God told Adam not to eat from the forbidden tree because if he did he would die, that you think Adam didn't understand what the word die meant therefore couldn't possibly understand the command, you're wrong. God doesn't give us commands that we can't possibly understand or obey. Also for you to take the word death and try to say the death the WTS was talking about concerning the animals is the death applied to Adam or mankind is twisted. The death that WTS applied to mankind is Adamic death. The death that came into existence regarding Adams disobedience. The animals have always grown old and died. As I said I challenge anyone to prove from scripture that God offered eternal life to animals.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Jan 3, 2020

ReChoired said:
"... Length of the six days of creation. Some creationists assert that the six days of creation were literal 24-hour days. But the word “day” in the Bible can refer to a considerable length of time.—Genesis 2:4; Psalm 90:4.[/QUOTE\]

I find nothing wrong that is said here, the word day in the scriptures have various meanings. That's not a false statement. If the scriptures use the word day to mean varying lengths of time why should that bother anyone. That statement is true no matter how much you want to speak against it.

QUOTE="ReChoired, post: 673519, member: 8441"]" Age of the earth. Length of the six days of creation. Some creationists say that the earth is just a few thousand years old. However, according to the Bible, the earth and the universe existed before the six days of creation. (Genesis 1:1) For that reason, Jehovah’s Witnesses have no objection to credible scientific research that indicates the earth may be billions of years old. ..." - [2], and the NWT Psalm 90:4, says, "For a thousand years are in your eyes just as yesterday when it is past,fJust as a watch during the night." [3], wherein the note "f", cites the NWT 2 Peter 3:8, "8 However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day."

The WTS, in citing Psalm 90:4, related to 2 Peter 3:8, states that "one day" (in Genesis) is "as a thousand years" applies to the "length of the six days of creation" of Genesis 1. Thus they (WTS/JW) teach, in some instances (some place it much older) that Adam came after 6,000 years (6 days).[/QUOTE\]

The literature of WTS I've read are simply saying that the 6 days in Genesis of chapter 1 are called creative days in which God started preparing the earth for life(plant, animal, human) The scriptures tell us that in the beginning God created heaven and earth(physical universe). When the scripture starts speaking about the earth having no form and void and empty we don't know how much time the earth was in this state of having no form and void and empty before Gods Holy Spirit started roving to and fro over the watery deep. For all we know after God created heaven and earth in the beginning the earth could have stay in this state or condition of being without form and void and empty for millions or billions of years for all we know. The scriptures don't go into details of how much time past after he created heaven and earth and his Holy Spirit started roving to and fro over the watery deep which basically began the first creative day. The WTS wasn't trying to say that 2 peter 3:8 proves that each creative day was 1000 years long but was showing in scripture including the new testament the word day is shown or used in scripture to have different definitions concerning length of time. WTS from what I read says that they have always believed that each creative day was 1000's of years in length but didn't know exactly how many 1000's of years each day was. WTS has said that we have scriptural proof that each creative day is 1000's of years in length because today we are still in that 7th day and it hasn't ended yet and it's been like a little over 6000 years now. Adam was created at the end of the 6th creative day and the scriptures show us that the rebellion in Eden started close to the beginning of the 7th day. So when this day ends and God has fulfilled his purpose then mankind will know exactly how long the 7th day will be and also how long each of those creative days were. So if for example the 7th days ends at 7000 years, not saying that's when the 7th day will end just an example. You multiply 7 times 6 and you get 42,000 years past from the time the first creative day started to the time God created Adam at the end of the 6th creative day.

ReChoired · Jan 3, 2020

BARNEY BRIGHT said:
All the WTS is saying here is that after God created the animals and told them to be fruitful and multiply that the animals would age and die while producing offspring who also would age and die while producing offspring. I challenge you or anyone else to show me in scripture that God offered eternal life to the animals. ... The animals have always grown old and died. As I said I challenge anyone to prove from scripture that God offered eternal life to animals.

Yes, you have the WTS/JW heresy, plain as day.

In the beginning, it is written:

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The word "finished" is brought to perfection, completion. There is no mention of death in Genesis 1 or 2. The proof is in the text, and the WTS cannot prove death of animals in Genesis 1 or 2, but have to 'add' such thoughts into it. They have to teach that "good" and "very good" and "finished" (perfected) means God allowed animals to die for so many days, weeks, months, years, decades, millennia. They wrest the teat of God's word, in "good" and "very good" and "finished", and bring forth 'sour milk'. They are deceived and deceiving. May their word of error perish with them, for it blasphemes JEHOVAH God and His awesome character of LIFE.

Yet, God's word states that "death" is the "enemy" which shall be "destroyed", and the text says nothing about only death of men, but the WTS have to 'add' again:

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The whole creation groans with pain of death because of Adam's sin:

Rom_8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

The first death mentioned in scripture is the slaying of the lambs for Adam and Eve:

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:12, doesn't say only the death of men, but includes the death of men as a sub-category, in the second part of the verse. The Bible states that because of Adam's sin, "death" (which is an enemy to God, who is LIFE) entered into the world, and thus also men die. It is not exclusive to men.

The beasts of the field, are dying because of the sin of mankind:

Hos 4:2 By swearing, and lying, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultery, they break out, and blood toucheth blood.
Hos 4:3 Therefore shall the land mourn, and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish, with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yea, the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away.

Because of Adam's sin, and in losing the "first dominion" to satan, even the very earth, the whole creation, itself was to suffer, and lose its strength, and not yield as it did before, and needed to be strengthened, and thus trees came to fade:

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

The "first dominion" of Adam, the first, had no death, nor dying, nor sorrow, nor such pains, and God is going to restore back what was before Adam's fall:

Mic_4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

The New Heavens and New Earth shall be as "the first Dominion" with Adam, where there is no animal death, nor trees fading:

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Even the trees, shall again not "fade", but exist forever, as they were to from the "beginning", in the "first dominion":

Eze_47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

For God, who is the righteous, regards the LIFE (GOD gave) of His creatures and preserves them all, and only because of sin, do animals die, and God considers them all, one by one as precious:

Act_17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Pro_12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.

Mat_10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

God formed the earth to be inhabited with living creatures, not a world of death, disease, decay:

Isa_45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

God's command in the beginning was for the "living" creatures to "multiply", not "die", as the WTS vainly and blasphemously imagine in its carnal and wicked hearts:

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Jan 4, 2020

ReChoired said:
Yes, you have the WTS/JW heresy, plain as day.

These scriptures you have texted, everyone of them apply to mankind not animals. You can take them out of context to try to prove your point but I'm not going to agree with that. You can call that heresy all you want but you still haven't shown me where God offered eternal life to animals. The only thing you have done is that you have proven to me that you will take scriptures out of context to try to prove your belief.
You talk about the WTS reading thoughts into Genesis 1&2 but when it comes to all these scriptures you sent me the context shows that God wasn't in any way talking about animals but you don't have a problem reading thoughts into those scriptures that God was talking about the animals. Don't you think that's hypocritical? If you honestly believe the WTS is reading thoughts into Genesis 1& 2 why are you reading thoughts into scriptures where the context clearly shows animals were not being discussed.

By the way you taking a phrase from scripture such as, "The Lamb of God or The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," and try in any way or in any sense say this scripture is talking about the animals, now that's twisted, and you're calling WTS heresy.

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads