No one can see the Kingdom of God unless...

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Can you see the Kingdom of God in your midst?

  • Yes I can

    Votes: 7 53.8%
  • No I cant

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • I dont understand the question

    Votes: 3 23.1%
  • The kingdom has not fully come in yet

    Votes: 2 15.4%

  • Total voters
    13
  • Poll closed .

ScottA

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On the contrary, I'm the one glorifying him. You guys with all your questionable and ambiguous epiphanies, are more often than not, praising other spirits than God. I've said countless times that I believe in the immanency of God, that he intervenes on believer's behalf. But not in the spurious manner that so many Christian's claim that he's doing in their lives. I think that these people are either arrogant or self-righteous.
A relationship with God requires the utmost humility and faith. Who has it? In other words, anyone who is that close to God, doesn't advertise it the way that we see so many people do. That is, they impart the wisdom, not the fact that they had a silly dream.
Okay, so I backtracked, and this (above) explains a lot about what you do and do not believe or have knowledge of.

That kind of thinking is exactly what caused God's people to kill the prophets and those sent to them from God. Not having their own personal experience and encounter with God, they just killed them...just as you are now doing here in your writings. Apparently the notion of God giving personal revelation to some and not to all, and only picking certain individuals of His choosing to give revelation and words of knowledge to, doesn't sit well with you...and so your words are against those who have shared such experiences, because you can't take it directly to God, because He's not as available to you as to the messengers that He has sent.

Not a good position to hold. Jesus rebuked those who did...and then they killed Him too. He also rebuked those who spoke and prophesied falsely. We agree with you on that.
 
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ScottA

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But my views are not, I believe in miracles and Christ's messianic fulfillment, but i feel an obligation to justify this view with substantial Biblical testimony, and explanation. You, on the other hand, are talking about something so esoteric, that you can't even understand it, and you bring a single, non-definitive verse, to qualify your position?
Please appreciate why I think that you're being irresponsible and incompetent right now?
If you spoke only of what is phony and irresponsible, perhaps that would be different. But you have categorically spoken against God's own modus operandi for revelations.

2 Peter 1:21
"for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

Both the false and the true are out there.
 
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Enoch111

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Paul says it’s something he can know, you can witness this power within someone.
Paul was referring to his apostolic authority in the power of the Holy Spirit. He was authorized to bind and loose sins within the churches, and we see examples in his epistles. So were the other apostles.

For Christians in general the power of the Holy Spirit is demonstrated in (1) the fruit of the Spirit as well as (2) the gifts of the Spirit (and not necessarily signs, wonders, and miracles, since there are many other spiritual gifts). At the same time, when Christians present the true Gospel to the lost using the Word of God, they see the power of the Gospel (Rom 1:16) and the power of the Holy Spirit in bringing souls to Christ and giving them the New Birth. That is powerful.
 
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amadeus

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The Gospel of Christ, including Paul's conversion, are rational events.
"Rational events?

Why was it that Festus and Agrippa did not believe and repent?
Why do you presume that people today are so different than they were in the time of the Apostle Paul?

"And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad." Acts 26:24

"Then you might say that Festus was an unbelieving gentile, but what about King Agrippa:
Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian." Acts 26:28


The heart of every man has not changed from the time of the first disobedience of Adam and Eve! Essentially men today are just like they were when it got so bad God opened up the floodgates and all except Noah and his family died. Even Noah and his family did not measure up too very well did they... considering what happened not too long after they had come out of the ark and started over again? What was it they started over again... serving God?

We all understand the purpose and the significance behind their message & occurrences, and each one of us can explain it enough, to lead one to salvation.
When you say 'we all', I would guess that you mean every person attending some church regularly who readily parrots the teachings of the ministers or the doctrines of his group. The majority may be able to parrot well but like parrot they do not understand, really understand what they are saying. Does all of that majority really love God so much that they are most of the time seeking His kingdom and His righteousness first? Exceptions may be among them, but they would certainly be exceptions.

If the majority actually were striving after those first things, I do believe, we would see a very different world around us. Or have you not seen the evil around us in this these United States where the majority of the human population is designated as Christian? If 80% of the population were really striving to be like Jesus, do you not suppose it would be easily seen in our society?

Although Paul's conversion was a phenomenal event, there is no question that it was Christ who spoke to him, and we see the purpose behind it, and what it led to. Paul had a dramatic turn-around, and became the most effective Apostle of them all. Thus, glory all around for God & Christ. No ambiguity, no mystery, no subjective interpretation.
I believe in all the miracles, dreams, visions and prophecies of the Bible, and I believe that these gifts are still available today, to the devout, humble and faithful.
BUT, people, stop fantasizing.
Why do you presume that everyone is fantasizing? Do you stand with Festus? Will you give a minimal support answer like Agrippa and continue standing on the ground you believe to be firm rather than to step forward in faith?

Will convince us that we are all wrong and that we should all jump on your band wagon of unbelief?


Are you the primary interpreter of everyone else's testimony and walk with God leading them the way into the emptiness your words present! Are you not walking along the same pathway after the blind men who said that Jesus and Paul were beside themselves?

Why not rather with cry out for help to the One who can help?

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." Mark 9:23-24


Where is your faith? You say you believe what the Bible teaches except when it comes to faith in it, you indicate that today, God does nothing at all.

This kind of negative faith is what is wrong with what a lot of people call Christianity. People often have more faith in the manufacturers of their automobiles than they do in God... in spite of they say. They do not doubt that when they turn on the ignition and feed it a little gasoline, it is going to start and even move. Is God playing second fiddle to your car?

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." II Tim 3:5

Stop interpreting every thought that passes through your mind, every single whimsical or stressful dream that occurs, as a sign from God. You're not as blessed as you like to think that you are. ...but I wish that you were, for if God is communicating with you as much as you say that he is, I have got a lot of Biblical questions that I'd like to ask you, so that I can finally get some doctrinal issues resolved.
Can anyone affirm that much for me?
Do you really believe that real men of God, men who are really seeking Him and putting Him first are supposed to know the answers to all of your questions? Isn't your line of questioning just a bit selfish? Do you really believe that the solutions to the doctrinal differences between people will solve the problems that men have when it comes to serving God?

If you really need answers, ask of God! Anything that is needed will be provided, but don't be deciding for yourself what is needed. You seemingly know more about what you want that what you need!

Every unbeliever thinks he knows that much.

When all of our wants equal precisely what God knows to be our needs then we will be like Him. Then we will overcomers like Jesus and will be given access to the Tree of Life.


You are following the wrong pathway with your questions!
"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem
10:23

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33
 
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amadeus

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Again, the Jews & Muslims are mocking this incompetence and irreverence.
And why do the opinions of the Jews and Muslims who choose to mock ultimately matter?
Who do we need to please other than God?
 

marks

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I don't say this because I want, or need, to know the details, but just meaning that I'm not making the connection, further convincing me that it was trauma that invoked your dream.
It wasn't about my salvation, and I already believed she was saved, but this little bit in my mind gave a visual picture to the reality of God's teaching, "It is no longer I that sin, but the sin that lives in me". I grew up with much abuse which left much damage, and part of that was the anger and bitterness I felt. While I knew the theology, yet it didn't help my feelings, and I just remained that way.

But that in that moment, it just became completely real to me, that this person who was a new creation in Christ really had nothing to do with the one doing the works of the flesh. My anger was against that person, but the new person, I only had love and rejoicing. She was beautiful and joyful and I was so happy for her!

We are all like that, being born again. There is the old man who still gets through and does his damage, the works of death, but the new creation in Christ is not that one. The child of Adam is judged and condemned for his wicked works, the deadness of his heart. The child of God is a brand new person who didn't exist when those things were being done, and now exists in a new kingdom, in the celestial realm, hid with Christ in God, seated together in the heavenlies.

This is all the truth of Scripture, and this momentary movie gave me a visual on that, but the impact on me was profound in releasing me from an emotional bondage that had persisted for a long long time.

Much love!
 

Waiting on him

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Paul was referring to his apostolic authority in the power of the Holy Spirit. He was authorized to bind and loose sins within the churches, and we see examples in his epistles. So were the other apostles.

For Christians in general the power of the Holy Spirit is demonstrated in (1) the fruit of the Spirit as well as (2) the gifts of the Spirit (and not necessarily signs, wonders, and miracles, since there are many other spiritual gifts). At the same time, when Christians present the true Gospel to the lost using the Word of God, they see the power of the Gospel (Rom 1:16) and the power of the Holy Spirit in bringing souls to Christ and giving them the New Birth. That is powerful.
Oh, i see that’s why he referenced the kingdom.
 

DNB

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Okay, so I backtracked, and this (above) explains a lot about what you do and do not believe or have knowledge of.

That kind of thinking is exactly what caused God's people to kill the prophets and those sent to them from God. Not having their own personal experience and encounter with God, they just killed them...just as you are now doing here in your writings. Apparently the notion of God giving personal revelation to some and not to all, and only picking certain individuals of His choosing to give revelation and words of knowledge to, doesn't sit well with you...and so your words are against those who have shared such experiences, because you can't take it directly to God, because He's not as available to you as to the messengers that He has sent.

Not a good position to hold. Jesus rebuked those who did...and then they killed Him too. He also rebuked those who spoke and prophesied falsely. We agree with you on that.
I believe that my views are balanced. I'll accept any alleged vision provided that it sounds impressive, ....because that's my view of God and his empowerment, very impressive. Not, day to day dreams, that even the unsaved have, i.e. claiming that they saw or spoke in a dream, to a dead parent or loved one.
 

ScottA

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The Gospel of Christ, including Paul's conversion, are rational events. We all understand the purpose and the significance behind their message & occurrences, and each one of us can explain it enough, to lead one to salvation. Although Paul's conversion was a phenomenal event, there is no question that it was Christ who spoke to him, and we see the purpose behind it, and what it led to. Paul had a dramatic turn-around, and became the most effective Apostle of them all. Thus, glory all around for God & Christ. No ambiguity, no mystery, no subjective interpretation.
I believe in all the miracles, dreams, visions and prophecies of the Bible, and I believe that these gifts are still available today, to the devout, humble and faithful.
BUT, people, stop fantasizing. Stop interpreting every thought that passes through your mind, every single whimsical or stressful dream that occurs, as a sign from God. You're not as blessed as you like to think that you are. ...but I wish that you were, for if God is communicating with you as much as you say that he is, I have got a lot of Biblical questions that I'd like to ask you, so that I can finally get some doctrinal issues resolved.
Can anyone affirm that much for me?
Indeed, fantasizing is not good, and I for one will affirm there is too much of it. But it is wrong to categorically dismiss any great amount in these days of which Joel spoke and prophesied the pouring out of God's spirit upon all flesh (not just some, not just at Pentecost, but "all"), which was then announced by Jesus, and confirmed by Peter.

And, by all means, ask any question. In a PM if you prefer.
 

DNB

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If you spoke only of what is phony and irresponsible, perhaps that would be different. But you have categorically spoken against God's own modus operandi for revelations.

2 Peter 1:21
"for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

Both the false and the true are out there.
I'm not sure as to what you were just referring to?
I thought that we were talking about you attempting to prove the eternal existence of Christ, and using '...before Abraham was born, I am....' to prove it.
This, I call irresponsible and incompetent.
 

DNB

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And why do the opinions of the Jews and Muslims who choose to mock ultimately matter?
Who do we need to please other than God?
We want to convert them. THis is the frustrating part. The Jews are our brothers in some sense, and at least the Muslims are monotheistic. We'd love to convert them. But when we attempt to compel them to our side with incomprehensible and irrational tenets, we lose them.
 

ScottA

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I'm not sure as to what you were just referring to?
I thought that we were talking about you attempting to prove the eternal existence of Christ, and using '...before Abraham was born, I am....' to prove it.
This, I call irresponsible and incompetent.
Then you have departed from or do not know the scriptures:

Hebrews 13:8
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."
 

marks

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A relationship with God requires the utmost humility and faith. Who has it? In other words, anyone who is that close to God, doesn't advertise it the way that we see so many people do. That is, they impart the wisdom, not the fact that they had a silly dream.
Hi DNB,

That's actually how I feel about these things also, well, not so much that a relationship with God requires humility, but it certainly does bring humility, I as a rule don't talk about these things unless there is a specific context where I feel there may be a benefit to others, and then I tend to choose the simplest and most easily discussed and dissected, hoping not to get things to far into any sort of sensationalism.

I wrote a post the other day somewhere that I did in fact list out several examples of things that have happened with me that show me God's most active place in my moment by moment life. It felt really weird writing it, and I meant only to encourage.

And otherwise, it's just like what you said, the focus isn't to be on something I may or may not have been given by God, it's on what the Bible tells us already, and all the rest helps us to understand and believe the words of that Book, because in that we can know that the God we know is truly the Creator.

I think it's in James, something like, if you have wisdom, don't talk about it, but show it in how you live your life.

Much love!
 

DNB

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It wasn't about my salvation, and I already believed she was saved, but this little bit in my mind gave a visual picture to the reality of God's teaching, "It is no longer I that sin, but the sin that lives in me". I grew up with much abuse which left much damage, and part of that was the anger and bitterness I felt. While I knew the theology, yet it didn't help my feelings, and I just remained that way.

But that in that moment, it just became completely real to me, that this person who was a new creation in Christ really had nothing to do with the one doing the works of the flesh. My anger was against that person, but the new person, I only had love and rejoicing. She was beautiful and joyful and I was so happy for her!

We are all like that, being born again. There is the old man who still gets through and does his damage, the works of death, but the new creation in Christ is not that one. The child of Adam is judged and condemned for his wicked works, the deadness of his heart. The child of God is a brand new person who didn't exist when those things were being done, and now exists in a new kingdom, in the celestial realm, hid with Christ in God, seated together in the heavenlies.

This is all the truth of Scripture, and this momentary movie gave me a visual on that, but the impact on me was profound in releasing me from an emotional bondage that had persisted for a long long time.

Much love!
Personally, I'm extremely glad that it 'healed' you in that sense. And also, in a way, I hope that you're right that this was God intervening on your behalf, offering some insight into your mother's state.
I'm skeptical, because I believe that you made the inference yourself, that is, it wasn't explained to you by God what it all meant.
...i think that you and I spoke of this before, i.e. God does not leave us guessing when he works in our lives?
Again, i hope that you remain healed for whatever reason, and personally, to me, you seem smart enough that your own God-given wisdom will pull you through a lot.
Good luck, God bless!
 

DNB

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Indeed, fantasizing is not good, and I for one will affirm there is too much of it. But it is wrong to categorically dismiss any great amount in these days of which Joel spoke and prophesied the pouring out of God's spirit upon all flesh (not just some, not just at Pentecost, but "all"), which was then announced by Jesus, and confirmed by Peter.

And, by all means, ask any question. In a PM if you prefer.
The apostles proved their inspiration with incredible wisdom and signs, no comparison to what I'm hearing from anyone on this site. This is almost the entirety of my position. That is, like I've said continuously, until I see such wisdom, power and glory from God, I will remain skeptical, ...to the point of rebuking.
 

DNB

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Then you have departed from or do not know the scriptures:

Hebrews 13:8
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."
Scott, for crying out loud, you just did it again!
Where do you read the eternality of Jesus Christ in anything that you just quoted?
 

Episkopos

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The apostles proved their inspiration with incredible wisdom and signs, no comparison to what I'm hearing from anyone on this site. This is almost the entirety of my position. That is, like I've said continuously, until I see such wisdom, power and glory from God, I will remain skeptical, ...to the point of rebuking.


Fair enough. I think a certain amount of skepticism is healthy...and at certain times necessary to show a sobriety of mind. Too many people just make a fantasy out of what they read in the bible...and just place themselves into the text without any other indicator than what they have come to believe. Of course this is encouraged by the modern evangelists and other types of ministers to get more people into the pews.
But in watering down the truth to a subjective opinionating...we in fact destroy the possibility of the truth touching our lives. It's akin to convicting the wrong person for a crime. It multiplies the problem: as now not only is an injustice being done to the wrongfully convicted....but the real culprit is free from justice...and free to continue breaking the law.

Now the kingdom of God is love, life and peace in the Holy Spirit. A certain percentage of believers do experience this kind of influence...and reflect that influence into the world. So we could say that these "perceive" the kingdom realm...although to say they actually see into it I think is going too far.

There is a walk on the level of seeing in the Spirit..walking in the light in Zion....but this is so rare (especially now) that it is almost better to be left unsaid.
 
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DNB

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Hi DNB,

That's actually how I feel about these things also, well, not so much that a relationship with God requires humility, but it certainly does bring humility, I as a rule don't talk about these things unless there is a specific context where I feel there may be a benefit to others, and then I tend to choose the simplest and most easily discussed and dissected, hoping not to get things to far into any sort of sensationalism.

I wrote a post the other day somewhere that I did in fact list out several examples of things that have happened with me that show me God's most active place in my moment by moment life. It felt really weird writing it, and I meant only to encourage.

And otherwise, it's just like what you said, the focus isn't to be on something I may or may not have been given by God, it's on what the Bible tells us already, and all the rest helps us to understand and believe the words of that Book, because in that we can know that the God we know is truly the Creator.

I think it's in James, something like, if you have wisdom, don't talk about it, but show it in how you live your life.

Much love!
Well, you seem extremely sensible and wise marks, and I always understood that you brought up your own experience, just in context to the point that we were discussing. And that you had a balanced view on the options of the source of it.
Well, you bring up an interesting point about these visions, that they are sometimes just meant to help underscore or clarify scripture.
That is possible, but again, as long as it leads to a great enlightenment, that the wisdom itself justifies it.
Let's put it this way, I'm largely convinced that God has clarified certain scriptures to me, in the same manner that people are describing here. But, without going into detail, I guarantee you that countless will say that the impartation came from the devil, or myself, because it profoundly disagrees with their views, ...which they claim came from God.
Therefore, I keep it to myself, until I'm 100% sure that it came from God, and that it wasn't just the result of many scriptures going through my head, and one day just coming to a perceived resolve. And that day will only come when either, I hear God's voice about it, or I am able to explain it in such a manner that others agree that, due to the novelty and wisdom of the insight, that this was not just my own interpretation.
 
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