Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

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mjrhealth

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You speak out against Jehovah's Witnesses for having their interpretation of the scriptures as you call it, well you, just as the people I grew up with are guilty of the same thing. Do you think people should be judged for having their interpretation of the scriptures? I think everyone has a right to their interpretation of the scriptures I just think everyone else on the planet has that same right. We should never judge or persecute people for exercising that same right but we must also acknowledge people's right to disagree with us. They should do it respectfully of course but they shouldn't as I said be judged or persecuted for exercising the same rights.
God gave every man free will, out of that free will came religion, not Gods plan, that is mans plan. God can surely use it, but He dosnt need it. People like to belong they find the whole they fit in and there they sitck, but the time will come where al mans delusions will be torn down, as you said God is not a religion.
 

mjrhealth

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Yes I understand how you believe, I've met many like you, grew up with many like you. You know what I didn't know about them? That they, like so many today, believe Jesus Christ to be God,

You see you havnt, we dont believe we know, that is a big difference.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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You see you havnt, we dont believe we know, that is a big difference.

Yeah right, you think you're saying something I haven't heard from by many people before you? There are many people other than you who basically say, " we don't believe we know," yet they all don't believe the same. You have a belief just like everyone else, no matter how much you don't want to admit that. You have a right to that belief just like everyone else.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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God gave every man free will, out of that free will came religion, not Gods plan, that is mans plan. God can surely use it, but He dosnt need it. People like to belong they find the whole they fit in and there they sitck, but the time will come where al mans delusions will be torn down, as you said God is not a religion.

Yes God teaches a way of life, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a visible organization. He brought the nation of Israel into existence did he not. God brought the messianic kingdom into existence that he made his Only Begotten Son king of. God is the one who chooses who will be kings, priests and judges with Jesus in that kingdom. So God has a visible and invisible organization. It's up to us as individuals to choose what is the True organization he's working through today.
 

mjrhealth

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but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a visible organization.
Thats the excuse of all religions, can only put it this way

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

but mankind loves his religion and will justify untill it stands in the light of the Lord and found wanting. Who need Jesus God and His Spirit when you have religion top tell you what to do as it does.

Act 7:46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
Act 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
 
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mjrhealth

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You have a belief just like everyone else
No not a belief faith...something so few have but it is the basis of Christianity without it we have nothing, but what you and so many see, is the limits you place on God and Jesus. religion says you cant know God, Jesus said you can.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Thats the excuse of all religions, can only put it this way

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

but mankind loves his religion and will justify untill it stands in the light of the Lord and found wanting. Who need Jesus God and His Spirit when you have religion top tell you what to do as it does.

Act 7:46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
Act 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

The Bible exhorts worshippers to speak in agreement, to avoid divisions, and to be “fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.” (1 Corinthians 1:10) Those words would make little sense if God wanted people to worship him only as individuals apart from one another.

Hebrews 10: 24 let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near.

is God’s will that instead of being a loose association of spiritually-minded individuals, true worshippers merge into a tight community of faith. The Bible exhorts worshippers to speak in agreement, to avoid divisions, and to be “fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.” (1 Corinthians 1:10) Those words would make little sense if God wanted people to worship him only as individuals apart from one another.
 

mjrhealth

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is God’s will that instead of being a loose association of spiritually-minded individuals, true worshippers merge into a tight community of faith. The Bible exhorts worshippers to speak in agreement, to avoid divisions, and to be “fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought
and yet here right in front of you is a bunch of divided "christians".

Joh_4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
 

justbyfaith

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The reign takes place in Heaven. Most people have a misunderstanding of the word "reign" in that context, but scripture defines that "reign" for us.

Look at the passages in Revelation, which speak of "reign", and notice the location, of each:

The “reign upon the earth” comes after 1,000 years [Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7], for the “saints” must be both resurrected and/or translated, glorified, and brought back to Heaven [John 14:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17, etc] at the Second Advent and First Great Resurrection, to “reign” in Heaven, for 1,000 years [Revelation 20:4,5a,6] going over the record books of the lost [1 Corinthians 6:2,3; Psalms 149:1-9]:

[1] The “thousand years” reign “in Heaven” [Psalms 50:5; Matthew 5:3,8,10,12, 6:20, 13:30, 24:31; Mark 10:21, 13:27; Luke 6:23, 18:22, 23:43; John 14:2-3, 17:24; Colossians 1:5; Hebrews 10:34; 1 Peter 1:4; Revelation 7:9, 14:3, 19:1; “Paradise”, Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7] with Christ Jesus [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 20:6] and

[2] The “reign on earth” [“made new”, not this sin polluted Earth; 2 Peter 3:13; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22; Revelation 21:1] that lasts “forever and ever” [Revelation 5:10; “meek inherit earth” [“made new”, not this sin polluted Earth], Psalms 37:9,11,34; Proverbs 11:31; Isaiah 25:8, 65:21; Daniel 7:27; Matthew 5:5; Revelation 5:10].
Did you notice the two "reigns"?

[1] limited in time, 1,000 years
[2] infinite in time, 'for ever and ever'
It's kinda like an ascension year, and the full reign afterward.

For instance, look at these texts, and ask yourself, do they say anywhere, in their text or its contexts, that the "reign" spoken of in it, it takes place on earth:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.​

Remember, John 14:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17, etc, speak of Jesus second advent:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

The saints, translated and resurrected, go "up" and return with Jesus back unto the Father in Heaven, for the duration of the 1,000 years, while the earth remains broken down by the seven last plagues, greatest earthquake, sun and moon being moved out of their places, and the atmosphere being torn asunder, and all the cities broken down and mountains uprooted, seas turned to blood, etc.

It is not until after the 1,000 years that all the saints with Jesus and New Jerusalem return to earth and come down:

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.​

Two Jerusalem's will face each other. Old Jerusalem to the west of the Mount of Olives, and New Jerusalem, which will have come down with Jesus and the saints, to the East of Old Jerusalem.

There is no text in scripture which states that the saints "reign" upon the earth for 1,000 years, and every text which shows that they cannot.

The saints are located in the holy city near the end of the millennial period. Is not the holy city found on earth? is it even possible for the holy city to be attacked by armies if it is located in heaven?

I think that you are promulgating a doctrine that counts on the fact that most people don't take the time to read the entire text.

That they, like so many today, believe Jesus Christ to be God, not the Only Begotten Son of God as the scriptures say he is.

What is the definition of the son that was given? His name shall be called, among other things, "the everlasting Father." (Isaiah 9:6-7).

Have you considered that there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); and that that Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21)? Yet no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3). And He is the Spirit of truth.

So then, if the one Lord, who is the Father, is Jesus Christ, then Jesus is the Father, even God.

Before you respond, I would suggest looking up the verses that I have referenced.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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I don't desire a third party app on my PC, and am very careful about what is and is not installed on it. I have 5 Terrabytes of precious data, and do not need any of it lost through negligence upon my part due to an unknown app.

Wow, that's, just lame. They do have a website you know. Don't have to download anything.
I'll give you this answer but only this one cause, like I said, the answer you gave me above is lame. I don't think if I gave a long list of scriptures you would believe, so this is all I'll give and if you're truly interested in what JW say about the subject, you can go online to jw.org to their website and not download anything. Let's be honest here, to text me and say, I was asking you, Barney. I'm a JW, so you're asking what a JW believes and quiet frankly I think you already know what JW believes on this subject.

When Jesus taught his Apostles to pray, part of what he said was, Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.” He had also said: “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.”Matt. 5:5;6:10.
If we're asking for God's will to take place on earth as in heaven, ask yourself is it Gods will to empty heaven for even a temporary time? It's always been God's purpose for planet earth to have humans on it. When God destroyed those people in Noah's day there were still humans on the planet (Noah and his family.) The last days will be as the days of Noah, just as there were people kept save during that destruction into basically a new earth, when Armageddon happens there will be people kept safe during that destruction who will go into the new earth without dying which is when the Thousand Year Reign of Jesus Christ starts.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Also, @BARNEY BRIGHT, please consider that Jesus said that unless you believe that He is the great I AM, you will die in your sins (John 8:24).

This scripture is teaching that we must believe Jesus who is the Only Begotten Son of God is the messiah/Christ who came and died for our sins and God resurrected 3 days after Jesus death. Other Bibles translate this. Scripture, you must believe "I am he", not "I AM" or "the great I AM". I keep this scripture in context of presiding scriptures in that chapter of John. How you and others choose to view it is your choice.
 

justbyfaith

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And, @BARNEY BRIGHT, you certainly have the right to take your chances on eternity; especially since you do not know that my interpretation is invalid; both concerning the fact of Jesus claiming to be the great I AM (for the "He" is in italics) as well as concerning what it will mean for you to die in your sins (eternal conscious torment).
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Justbyfaith said
What is the definition of the son that was given? His name shall be called, among other things, "the everlasting Father." (Isaiah 9:6-7).

Have you considered that there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); and that that Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21)? Yet no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3). And He is the Spirit of truth.[/QUOTE]

The Greek and Hebrew words rendered “lord” (or such related terms as “sir,” “owner,” “master”) are used with reference to Jehovah God (Eze 3:11), Jesus Christ (Mt 7:21), one of the elders seen by John in vision (Re 7:13, 14), angels (Ge 19:1, 2; Da 12:8), men (1Sa 25:24; Ac 16:16,19, 30), and false deities (1Co 8:5). Often the designation “lord” denotes one who has ownership or authority and power over persons or things. (Ge 24:9; 42:30; 45:8, 9; 1Ki 16:24; Lu 19:33; Ac 25:26; Eph 6:5) This title was applied by Sarah to her husband (Ge 18:12), by children to their fathers (Ge 31:35; Mt 21:28, 29), and by a younger brother to his older brother (Ge 32:5, 6). It appears as a title of respect addressed to prominent persons, public officials, prophets, and kings. (Ge 23:6; 42:10; Nu 11:28;2Sa 1:10; 2Ki 8:10-12; Mt 27:63) When used in addressing strangers, “lord,” or “sir,” served as a title of courtesy.—Joh 12:21; 20:15; Ac 16:30.

After Jesus resurrection he said to Mary to tell his Apostles: I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”—John 20:17. Jesus isn't saying he is God. Jesus is saying that the Only True God is his God just as The Only True God is the God his Apostles worship and Jesus is saying that the Only True God is his Father who also is his Apostles Father. When a scripture uses the word Lord such as at Ephesians 5:1, 1 corinthians 8:6 you have to apply that word Lord to the one Jesus said was his God and Father. When a scripture says Jesus is our Lord we have to understand that this is so because the God and Father of Jesus has given his Son this authority.

Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21 these scriptures are showing Jesus praying to his Father who is Lord of Heaven and Earth they are not saying he is The Father neither are they saying Jesus is Lord of Heaven and Earth.


Consider the endearing expression “Eternal Father/Everlasting Father.” As such, Jesus has the power and authority—as well as the desire—to give obedient humans the prospect of eternal life on earth by the merit of his ransom sacrifice. This means that they will finally be released from sin and imperfection inherited from the sinful first man, Adam. (Matthew 20:28; Romans 5:12;6:23) Christ will also apply his God-given authority to bring back to life many who have died.—John 11:25, 26.

The title “Eternal Father/ Everlasting Father” refers to the Messianic King’s power and authority to give humans the prospect of eternal life on earth. (John 11:25, 26) The legacy of our first parent, Adam, was death. Jesus, the last Adam, “became a life-giving spirit.” (1 Corinthians 15:22, 45;Romans 5:12, 18) Just as Jesus, the Eternal Father, will live forever, so obedient mankind will enjoy the benefits of his fatherhood eternally.—Romans 6:9.

In Jesus, Jehovah has provided an “Eternal Father” for those who hope to live forever on earth. Jesus is a replacement for the human father, Adam, who failed all his offspring so miserably. (Isaiah 9:6, 7) By accepting Jesus as our “Eternal Father,” exercising faith in him, we have a sure hope of everlasting life.

Before the first man, Adam, fathered children, he succumbed to sin. A rebel angel, who came to be called Devil and Satan, succeeded in causing him to disobey God. As a result, Adam lost his relationship as God’s son, as God said he would if he disobeyed. Thus, Adam suffered the consequences. He became imperfect, grew old, and eventually died.—Genesis 2:15-17; 3:17-19;Revelation 12:9.

Describing the effect that Adam’s disobedience had on all of us, his descendants, the Bible explains: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” (Romans 5:12) Sadly, we all inherited sin from our forefather Adam, along with its dire consequences, namely aging and death.—Job 14:4; Romans 3:23.

Release from such consequences could only be realized by having a perfect father, one who had not inherited sin and its dreadful consequences.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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And, @BARNEY BRIGHT, you certainly have the right to take your chances on eternity; especially since you do not know that my interpretation is invalid; both concerning the fact of Jesus claiming to be the great I AM (for the "He" is in italics) as well as concerning what it will mean for you to die in your sins (eternal conscious torment).

I believe what's written down in scripture not someones interpretation, although they have a right to their interpretation. I've always believed in people's right to their beliefs or choice of how they interpret scriptures or reason on the scriptures, but when a scripture clearly shows that Jesus is praying to his Father who is the Lord of heaven and earth, I mean that's what's written down in black white, then that's what I'm going to believe, not someone's interpretation of that scripture. When a scripture is written down in black and white that says that Jesus, after his resurrection, told someone to go and tell his Apostles , that he was going to his Father and their Father and his God and their God then that's what I'm going to believe, not someones interpretation of that scripture. I don't think those scriptures are lies. Gods Holy Spirit inspired someone to write that down. Why would Gods Holy Spirit have someone write that down if they're lies. If you want to say people are risking their chance on eternal life because they don't agree with you, well that's on you. I believe that you, like the rest of us, have a right to your beliefs and interpretation of scripture but I also believe that like the rest of us, you're an imperfect person who isn't infallible.
 

justbyfaith

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When a scripture uses the word Lord such as at Ephesians 5:1, 1 corinthians 8:6 you have to apply that word Lord to the one Jesus said was his God and Father. When a scripture says Jesus is our Lord we have to understand that this is so because the God and Father of Jesus has given his Son this authority.

But you must consider that there is only one Lord. So if the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth; and Jesus is also the Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3); and there is one Lord; this would indicate to us that Jesus is the Father.

Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21 these scriptures are showing Jesus praying to his Father who is Lord of Heaven and Earth they are not saying he is The Father neither are they saying Jesus is Lord of Heaven and Earth.

However, 1 Corinthians 12:3 would indicate to you that only if you have the Holy Spirit can you declare that Jesus is the Lord of heaven and earth.

The title “Eternal Father/ Everlasting Father” refers to the Messianic King’s power and authority to give humans the prospect of eternal life on earth.

Malachi 2:10 tells us that we have only one Father. Therefore if Jesus is a Father, He is the Father.

In Jesus, Jehovah has provided an “Eternal Father” for those who hope to live forever on earth.

Again, there is one Father (Malachi 2:10); even God.

I believe what's written down in scripture not someones interpretation,

You believe your own interpretation; and as a JW you should be believing the interpretation that is laid out to you by the Watchtower Society. After all, are they not God's organization, the 144,000?

If you want to say people are risking their chance on eternal life because they don't agree with you, well that's on you.

Nevertheless it is on you that you are taking that risk.

I believe that you, like the rest of us, have a right to your beliefs and interpretation of scripture but I also believe that like the rest of us, you're an imperfect person who isn't infallible.

And I would say that you are an imperfect person who isn't infallible.

For all you know, I'm one of the 144,000.

Jesus said that He would give the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth. So, I would suggest that you not take the word of the Watchtower Society on any issue; but study it out in the kjv for yourself with the help of the Holy Ghost. Ask the Holy Spirit what is the proper interpretation.
 
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justbyfaith

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The Greek and Hebrew words rendered “lord” (or such related terms as “sir,” “owner,” “master”) are used with reference to Jehovah God (Eze 3:11), Jesus Christ (Mt 7:21), one of the elders seen by John in vision (Re 7:13, 14), angels (Ge 19:1, 2; Da 12:8), men (1Sa 25:24; Ac 16:16,19, 30), and false deities (1Co 8:5). Often the designation “lord” denotes one who has ownership or authority and power over persons or things. (Ge 24:9; 42:30; 45:8, 9; 1Ki 16:24; Lu 19:33; Ac 25:26; Eph 6:5) This title was applied by Sarah to her husband (Ge 18:12), by children to their fathers (Ge 31:35; Mt 21:28, 29), and by a younger brother to his older brother (Ge 32:5, 6). It appears as a title of respect addressed to prominent persons, public officials, prophets, and kings. (Ge 23:6; 42:10; Nu 11:28;2Sa 1:10; 2Ki 8:10-12; Mt 27:63) When used in addressing strangers, “lord,” or “sir,” served as a title of courtesy.—Joh 12:21; 20:15; Ac 16:30.
The designation of capital letters to the word Lord makes a difference in the equation.

When "lord" has a lower-case "l" then what you say above is true.

When "Lord" has an upper-case "L" then understand that the scripture declares that there is only one who is designated Lord by this word (see Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6). This Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). And no one can say that Jesus is this Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3).
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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But you must consider that there is only one Lord. So if the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth; and Jesus is also the Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3); and there is one Lord; this would indicate to us that Jesus is the Father.



However, 1 Corinthians 12:3 would indicate to you that only if you have the Holy Spirit can you declare that Jesus is the Lord of heaven and earth.



Malachi 2:10 tells us that we have only one Father. Therefore if Jesus is a Father, He is the Father.



Again, there is one Father (Malachi 2:10); even God.



You believe your own interpretation; and as a JW you should be believing the interpretation that is laid out to you by the Watchtower Society. After all, are they not God's organization, the 144,000?



Nevertheless it is on you that you are taking that risk.



And I would say that you are an imperfect person who isn't infallible.

For all you know, I'm one of the 144,000.

Jesus said that He would give the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth. So, I would suggest that you not take the word of the Watchtower Society on any issue; but study it out in the kjv for yourself with the help of the Holy Ghost. Ask the Holy Spirit what is the proper interpretation.

I don't believe, as I said before, that God used his Holy Spirit to have something written down in black and white, that was a lie. When a scripture that is written down in black and white which says that Jesus was praying to his Father, who is the Lord of heaven and earth, that's what I'm going to believe, not someones interpretation of that scripture.
I could care less what anyone thinks of the WTS. Other people are just like me, imperfect people who are not infallible. They have a right to their beliefs and the way they choose to interpret the scriptures or reason on the scriptures, but so what? You honestly think I worry about what people think of WTS. The scriptures show that during the time that Jesus was on earth as a human that the religious leaders of Israel said Jesus was the ruler of the demons. Because of how the people treated Jesus we know that people will say bad things about Jesus brothers and disciples, which would include the organization that they have. So go ahead, say what you want about the WTS. Just understand I don't agree with you.
Also, I don't use just one Bible. I use several. I don't think it's wrong to use other Bibles other than the kjv.