No one can see the Kingdom of God unless...

DNB said:

Personally, I'm extremely glad that it 'healed' you in that sense. And also, in a way, I hope that you're right that this was God intervening on your behalf, offering some insight into your mother's state.
I'm skeptical, because I believe that you made the inference yourself, that is, it wasn't explained to you by God what it all meant.
...i think that you and I spoke of this before, i.e. God does not leave us guessing when he works in our lives?
Again, i hope that you remain healed for whatever reason, and personally, to me, you seem smart enough that your own God-given wisdom will pull you through a lot.
Good luck, God bless!

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Whatever the source, and I think it was God's doing, myself, there was no explanation needed, only that sudden realization that I had a changed heart, as I saw a someone I had never really seen before.

Since then well I'm still learning to see people that way, the new person.

Much love!

Episkopos said:

Fair enough. I think a certain amount of skepticism is healthy...and at certain times necessary to show a sobriety of mind. Too many people just make a fantasy out of what they read in the bible...and just themselves into the text without any other indicator than what they have come to believe. Of course this is encouraged by the modern evangelists and other types of ministers to get more people into the pews.
But in watering down the truth to a subjective opinionating...we in fact destroy the possibility of the truth touching our lives. It's akin to convicting the wrong person for a crime. It multiplies the problem: as now not only is an injustice being done to the wrongfully convicted....but the real culprit is free from justice...and free to continue breaking the law.

Now the kingdom of God is love, life and peace in the Holy Spirit. A certain percentage of believers do experience this kind of influence...and reflect that influence into the world. So we could say that these "perceive" the kingdom realm...although to say they actually see into it is going too far.

There is a walk on the level of seeing in the Spirit..walking in the light in Zion....but this is so rare (especially now) that it is almost better to be left unsaid.

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Episkopos, that was brilliantly stated! That has got to be the most comprehensive and balanced statement that I've heard on this topic yet!

DNB said:

Well, you seem extremely sensible and wise marks, and I always understood that you brought up your own experience, just in context to the point that we were discussing. And that you had a balanced view on the options of the source of it.
Well, you bring up an interesting point about these visions, that they are sometimes just meant to help underscore or clarify scripture.
That is possible, but again, as long as it leads to a great enlightenment, that the wisdom itself justifies it.
Let's put it this way, I'm largely convinced that God has clarified certain scriptures to me, in the same manner that people are describing here. But, without going into detail, I guarantee you that countless will say that my impartation came from the devil, or myself, because it profoundly disagrees with their views.
Therefore, I keep it to myself, until I'm 100% sure that it came from God, and that it wasn't just the result of many scriptures going through my head, and one day just coming to a perceived resolve. And that day will only come when either, I hear God's voice about it, or I am able to explain it in such a manner that others agree that, due to the novelty and wisdom of the insight, that this was not just my own interpretation.

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I think this falls along the lines of letting this faith be to yourself. Yeah, there are those who want everyone to know to what heights they have excelled.

At the end of the day, if any experience does not match with Scritpure, we need to pay attention to that fact. And any that brings us better understanding of the Scripture serves the hand of God in conforming our minds to His.

For whatever it's worth, it seems to me you have a reasonably balanced view on this.

Much love!

Episkopos said:

There is a walk on the level of seeing in the Spirit..walking in the light in Zion....

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on this part, where is this in Scripture? I find I'm not actually sure what you mean, and I wonder whether you are speaking of seeing as an internal perception, or seeing by the sight of your eyes.

I think of the very plain passage, our walk is by believing and not by seeing so I'm wondering what you mean, and where I can read about it in the Bible.

Thank you in advance!

amadeus said:

"Rational events?

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Yes, because after the fact, we understand the purpose and full meaning. It didn't leave any Christian guessing as to its meaning and significance, the way people's dreams today are doing.

amadeus said:

When you say 'we all', I would guess that you mean every person attending some church regularly who readily parrots the teachings of the ministers or the doctrines of his group.

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All as in Christians, not the secular world, those who accept the occurrence as fact.

amadeus said:

Why do you presume that everyone is fantasizing?

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Because that's about as much insight and wisdom that they've offered. Have you not heard yourself the testimony of Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Muslims, etc... that claim that God speaks to them, and how they know in their heart that the Book of Mormon is truth, or the Koran. Or, how with tears in their eyes, they claim that God gave them a vision. This is fantasizing, which is equally committed by the main stream Christians too, like on this site.
Have you not read some of the Biblical interpretations on this site, and how unsound that they are? How often these dreams and visions come from the same people. I'm not trying to disparage, but you must've done a head-turn once or twice so far, on this forum? Again, this is fantasizing.

amadeus said:

Are you the primary interpreter of everyone else's testimony and walk with God leading them the way into the emptiness your words present! Are you not walking along the same pathway after the blind men who said that Jesus and Paul were beside themselves?
Where is your faith? You say you believe what the Bible teaches except when it comes to faith in it, you indicate that today, God does nothing at all.

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No, I'm making God proud by rejecting nonsense, and affirming that it did not come from him. Whereas, show me the wisdom, and I'll be the first to say, bless you, in my opinion, that was inspired from God.
And yes, as a Christian I have a right to judge and discern bad inspiration and frivolity, from sound interpretation. In other words, I have always pointed out the error, whereas others just keep shouting 'lack of faith' or 'why not'. They incriminate themselves profoundly. You should be able to recognize the difference?

amadeus said:

Do you really believe that real men of God, men who are really seeking Him and putting Him first are supposed to know the answers to all of your questions? Do you really believe that the solutions to the doctrinal differences between people will solve the problems that men have when it comes to serving God? If you really need answers, ask of God! You seemingly know more about what you want that what you need!

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I simply used that as an example to prove whether or not they had such a relationship or inspiration from God. I'm not saying that it's my primary focus, which it is at times, but rather, that they wouldn't even be on this forum if they had all the answers, ...which is what visions from God implies in a way. One wants to show everyone how close that they are to God, by divulging their visions and dreams, then they better be prepared to assist others with their divine relationship. I was challenging their claims, by addressing the implications behind them.

marks said:

on this part, where is this in Scripture? I find I'm not actually sure what you mean, and I wonder whether you are speaking of seeing as an internal perception, or seeing by the sight of your eyes.

I think of the very plain passage, our walk is by believing and not by seeing so I'm wondering what you mean, and where I can read about it in the Bible.

Thank you in advance!

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Well we know that Stephen saw into the third heaven in real time. (In Acts) And that is by a vision superimposed on the natural vision. A sight beyond sight. We have references from the OT with Elijah and his servant who were permitted to see into the spiritual realm.

We also read of John who was taken up to see many mysterious things.

But the NT way of seeing in the Spirit is akin to the walk of Jesus. In fact it is EXACTLY that walk....where by Jesus said...I only do what I SEE my Father doing. That is the spiritual walk on THAT level.

Of course most people don't walk that way...or ever will. But this walk is necessary for the church...for prophecy and leadership...to actually discern the spirits and testify to what God is doing...and all this in real time. Having spiritual eyes opened is absolutely necessary to an overcoming church. It is the lack of this kind of gifting that has led the churches to be as the blind leading the blind.

Most people don't understand that walking in the light is not a metaphoric philosophical statement. It is by the grace of God that we walk WHERE He is in the light and holiness of His presence. People raise themselves up as pastors....or raise others up to that place...but based entirely on the wrong criteria.

And faith? Faith is not just being blind and believing. That is the most basic thing. But better is to see into the spiritual realm and trust God to make it's power and presence known in the world. That is the faith OF Jesus. (Not a human blind belief.)

Unless you want to believe that Jesus lacked faith.

Episkopos said:

Well we know that Stephen saw into the third heaven in real time. (In Acts) And that is by a vision superimposed on the natural vision. A sight beyond sight. We have references from the OT with Elijah and his servant who were permitted to see into the spiritual realm.

We also read of John who was taken up to see many mysterious things.

But the NT way of seeing in the Spirit is akin to the walk of Jesus. In fact it is EXACTLY that walk....where by Jesus said...I only do what I SEE my Father doing. That is the spiritual walk on THAT level.

Of course most people don't walk that way...or ever will. But this walk is necessary for the church...for prophecy and leadership...to actually discern the spirits and testify yo what God is doing...and all this in real time. Having spiritual eyes opened is absolutely necessary to an overcoming church. It is the lack of this kind of gifting that has led the churches to be as the blind leading the blind.

Most people don't understand that walking in the light is not a metaphoric philosophical statement. It is by the grace of God that we walk WHERE He is in the light and holiness of His presence. People raise themselves up as pastors....or raise others up to that place...but based entirely on the wrong criteria.

And faith? Faith is not just being blind and believing. That is the most basic thing. But better is to see into the spiritual realm and trust God to make it's power and presence known in the world. That is the faith OF Jesus. (Not a human blind belief.)

Unless you want to believe that Jesus lacked faith.

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OK, so then if I understand you correctly you are speaking of an inner perception rather than by the sight of the eyes, is that right? That is of course aside from such visions like Stephen or Peter or John, specific sensory experiences for specific times and purposes, but not as the everyday walk. Am I understanding you correctly?

Much love!

Romans 14:17-19 KJV
[17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [18] For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. [19] Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

I’ve seen this.

Tecarta Bible

Episkopos said:

And faith? Faith is not just being blind and believing. That is the most basic thing. But better is to see into the spiritual realm and trust God to make it's power and presence known in the world. That is the faith OF Jesus. (Not a human blind belief.)

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Indeed, ...and this is the most common misconception about Theism and the Christian Faith, amongst both, atheists and Christians alike. The notion that one is to accept just anything that one hears, has made Christians out to be nothing more than a bunch of frivolous and credulous fools. That is, one should always be able to explain and justify their faith, as much as one is required to do so on secular matters, i.e. hiring someone, dating someone, allowing children to take responsibility, etc...
That is to say that we believe in God, for example, based on evidential grounds, i.e. existential, anthropological, ...metaphysical. We see what the others don't.

DNB said:

We see what the others don't.

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Exactly.. you said it... And who are we to deny God..

Waiting on him said:

Good post John, simple question, Would God petition us to seek after something unobtainable?

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Certainly not, but what is not obtainable by God? But...then again, even if obtainable should we be petitioning for just anything?

We are to seek the kingdom and righteousness of God. Perhaps while
will who are in obedience are doing that, some will be led by God to seek other things. When we start deciding just what we should seek other than what He has told us, may that not lead us into trouble? That want versus need thing can get us into trouble anytime I would guess up until our wants are really equal to what God say are our needs.

DNB said:

We want to convert them. THis is the frustrating part. The Jews are our brothers in some sense, and at least the Muslims are monotheistic. We'd love to convert them. But when we attempt to compel them to our side with incomprehensible and irrational tenets, we lose them.

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No one is won to God only because you or I or the other guy is always reasonable. That may be included, but don't get ahead of God. He knows when a heart is open and hungry. Just be available for God to use when and if He lets you know that He wants to use you.

"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:65

@DNB

Amadeus said: ↑
"Rational events?

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Yes, because after the fact, we understand the purpose and full meaning. It didn't leave any Christian guessing as to its meaning and significance, the way people's dreams today are doing.

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Not every believer is on the same spot on the highway of holiness toward God. Not every believer sees exactly the same things at the same time nor do we all see with the same clarity. We, those who really do believe, are not the same and we are not supposed to be. The Body of Christ consists of the Head and many members with individual members having different functions. Don't try presume that all are to be the same and are all to be doing the same things. Only God has access to everything about everyone.

amadeus said: ↑
When you say 'we all', I would guess that you mean every person attending some church regularly who readily parrots the teachings of the ministers or the doctrines of his group.

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All as in Christians, not the secular world, those who accept the occurrence as fact.

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How do you go about separating the sheep from the goats before it is time? Or, is it time and have you been designated by God as one of the reapers? Not everyone bearing the label of Christian is a follower of Jesus.... although some may put on a good front. We cannot go simply by what a person says and presume that he is with God or against Him.

What we have to do is always be on the Lord's side ourselves. That we can do if don't walk into a delusion ourselves. Then, since He always knows, there would be not mistakes on our part. When you or I or another guy suppresses the Holy Spirit by our own logical conclusions and take the lead ourselves...?

mjrhealth said:

Exactly.. you said it... And who are we to deny God..

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Because God deliberately revealed himself with signs and wonders, as creation itself is a miracle. This is a testimony that i will accept, whereas I would be strongly skeptical of a witness that did not have such power and wisdom behind it. Or, at least, the hand of God written somewhere.

amadeus said:

No one is won to God only because you or I or the other guy is always reasonable. That may be included, but don't get ahead of God. He knows when a heart is open and hungry. Just be available for God to use when and if He lets you know that He wants to use you.

"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:65

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Yes, ....but, they are definitely deterred by nonsense.

DNB said:

Because God deliberately revealed himself with signs and wonders,

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you have Jonah, this generation seeks a sign as you do. You said you have being shown, but unwilling to discuss, you wonder why so many wont dsicuss there testimonies, to glorify God, because "christians" love to tear them down to there own destruction.

DNB said:

Scott, for crying out loud, you just did it again!
Where do you read the eternality of Jesus Christ in anything that you just quoted?

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And, yes, again you show yourself and your lack of knowledge.

What I quoted is only said of God who is eternal...duh, "forever" means eternal.

@DNB

amadeus said: ↑
Why do you presume that everyone is fantasizing?

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DNB said:
Because that's about as much insight and wisdom that they've offered. Have you not heard yourself the testimony of Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Muslims, etc... that claim that God speaks to them, and how they know in their heart that the Book of Mormon is truth, or the Koran. Or, how with tears in their eyes, they claim that God gave them a vision. This is fantasizing, which is equally committed by the main stream Christians too, like on this site.
Have you not read some of the Biblical interpretations on this site, and how unsound that they are? How often these dreams and visions come from the same people. I'm not trying to disparage, but you must've done a head-turn once or twice so far, on this forum? Again, this is fantasizing.

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Why do you lump all the members of those groups into the same rotten basket? Who was the prophet Balaam that God talked with him? He missed the way himself, but did he not hear from God and he did not speak what God told him to speak to Balak?

Who was the unnamed prophet of God sent from Judah to the first king of the northern 10 tribes to prophesy? He did prophesy and his prophecy came true 350 years later in the reign of Josiah... yet the prophet himself disobeyed God and was slain by a lion on his way home.
All of these OT event really tell us some things if we are listening God. We may really hear God's voice, even if it is NOT audible to our human ears.

Who am I or or who are you? Has God ever spoke to us? If He has not then why are we even hear talking about this?

Are some of the people on this forum in error with their beliefs and doctrines? Very likely, but it is not also likely that you and I have missed a turn or two in the road as well? We need to take hold of His hand in this thing. No man can make it alone!

amadeus said:

@DNB



Not every believer is on the same spot on the highway of holiness toward God. Not every believer sees exactly the same things at the same time nor do we all see with the same clarity. We, those who really do believe, are not the same and we are not supposed to be. The Body of Christ consists of the Head and many members with individual members having different functions. Don't try presume that are to be all doing the same things and doing the same things. Only God has access to everything about everyone.




How do you go about separating the sheep from the goats before it is time? Or, is it time and have you been designated by God as one of the reapers? Not everyone bearing the label of Christian is a follower of Jesus.... although some may put on a good front. We cannot go simply by what a person says and presume that is with God or against Him.

What we have to do is always be on the Lord's side ourselves. That we can do if don't walk into a delusion ourselves. Then since He always knows there would be not mistakes on our part. When you or I or another guy suppresses the Holy Spirit by our own logical conclusions and take the lead ourselves...?

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Alright, all I can say is that I, personally, choose to reserve all the inspirations that I've received, to myself, until I can articulately and certifiably claim that they have come from God. Of which, currently, I do believe that they did come from God. But, I expect absolutely no one to accept them as such, unless i impress them with either the wisdom, or the event, or both. And anyone who takes my word for it, on that basis alone, is credulous.
For, there is a side to me which feels that I could still be wrong, despite what I believe to be, the profundity of the insight. Everyone should have this caution about their inspirational claims, unless again, it was testified to by undeniable signs and wonders.

mjrhealth said:

you have Jonah, this generation seeks a sign as you do. You said you have being shown, but unwilling to discuss, you wonder why so many wont dsicuss there testimonies, to glorify God, because "christians" love to tear them down to there own destruction.

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I won't discuss because I'm not convinced from where it came. At this point, I accept the wisdom that was given to me, as truth, but I need to develop it further in order to convince others.
But again, my point is that I'm not 100% convinced, therefore, I remain silent.