Created Equal?

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cedarhart

When good men do nothing, evil will triumph.Take a
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In the very, very beginning of the 1st Earth Age, God created ALL. When it came to designing the Souls, did He create them all the same? Particularly, did God bestow each with the same equal amounts of knowledge, physical abilities, and opportunities? That would mean that we each were presented with the same available choices of free will. We all had a “level playing field.”If this is true, how is it that so many went separate ways in their choices of moral standards such as loyalty and honor? If we were all made equal, which is only fair, why are there so many who chose to be self-indulgent and envious? With the same intellectual tools, why wouldn’t we all develop the same, knowing there would be consequences that would occur?Is there such a thing as Spiritual Evolution? Cedarhart
 

Dunamite

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What is fair? Who said that life is meant to be fair? What is equality? We are all born equal, as sinners. We are all born into different circumstances and these shape us as much as our innate abilities. We cannot blame God for our circumstances or our abilities. He made us not equal but unique.
Romans 9: 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?​
Job 40: 6 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm: 7 "Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. 8 "Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself? 9 Do you have an arm like God's, and can your voice thunder like his? 10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor, and clothe yourself in honor and majesty. 11 Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at every proud man and bring him low, 12 look at every proud man and humble him, crush the wicked where they stand. 13 Bury them all in the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave. 14 Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you.​
God is sovereign. He has reasons behind everything that he does. We do not have all of the information and therefore cannot question his motives. Yet, despite this he has equipped us. We have infinite power, but don't choose to use it. Jesus said that we could tell the mountain to jump into the sea (Matthew 21:21). He said that we could do more great things than even he did (John 14:12). Yet, we don't.There are people who do great things. They are usually not extraordinary people. But they take advantage of God's provision and rely on him and his Holy Spirit which we all have available to us and who dwells in the saved.Life is not fair. It cannot be fair in a fallen world. People are not equal for the same reason. We are fallen people, born into sin. A child is born with fetal alcohol syndrome, not because God wills it, but because we are fallen. As science delves into the human genome they are finding that more and more is in our genetic makeup. Sin is passed through the generations and we bear the sins of our ancestors whether we like it or not.God could put us in a bubble of protection but chooses not to. He wants us in the world so that we can make a difference. This may mean that we need to suffer, but he has provided for that too. All suffering is temporary. He has said that he will help us through it and does. All of the apostles except John died painful deaths. Paul lived with a condition that he repeatedly asked God to remove, but God asked him to endure.Without suffering, humanity would egotistically and blithely go on without God. We would try to do everything under our own power and take all of the credit. We do that even in a time of suffering and would be even worse without it. In our weakness we turn back to God. Suffering shows the nature of sin and the author of our troubles, Satan, not God.The book of Job starts with a conversation between God and Satan. It shows how suffering works. God removes his protection from Job and allows Satan to operate. That is what is happening in the world. God steps in as we invite him in but will only operate insofar as his sovereign purposes allow. We cannot and should not question his sovereign purpose or right to do so. When we decided to do it our way, God stepped back and allowed us to see the folly of that and as such has temporarily left us to our own devices and allowed Satan time and space to operate.God wants us to learn that sin produces suffering and that as long as we choose to operate outside of his will then pain will be the inevitable result. But there is more than us at stake. We are part of an epic battle of cosmic proportions. The Heavenly hosts are watching both us and God. Satan is accusing God and God allows it. He wants to show that he has been infinitely patient and when he steps in at his appointed time to stop it, then no one can accuse him of acting out of fear or self interest. Remember Satan's accusation in the garden.
Genesis 3: 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."​
He is saying that God fears that we will become like God and as such he is telling the Heavenly hosts the same thing. We can be like God and God knows it and is afraid.Personally, I like God's way. His love is sacrificial. He felt that he had to make a sufficient commitment to his plan that he had to take on human form and surrender his divinity and live and die a long, slow agonizing death. Do not think for a second that Jesus did not feel pain? He was fully human until the time of his resurrection.God loves us and wants us to return to him, to return to his path and live under his protection. That cannot happen in this fallen world and in our fallen condition. We must be reborn and the world must be remade. That was Jesus' message to us and he was willing to suffer and die for us to demonstrate the Father's love for us. And he did all of that while we were unworthy sinners.
Romans 5: 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.​
No, we are not equal and life is not fair. Someday that situation will be reversed. We will all live under his protection and experience his love in the same way that he originally envisaged. We are his love child. He made us so that he could love us and so that we could love him. Those that disagree with him will live without his love and protection. I think that this is what Hell is. Jesus cried out on the cross. It was a cry of despair. He experienced the emptiness that comes when we are without God. Why would anyone want to live eternally in such a condition, separated from God, knowing no fellowship or love? That is why it is called Hell. It is not a place, but a condition.There is spiritual devolution. We became depraved and it is getting progressively worse. There isn't spiritual evolution but spiritual renewal. That happens when we are reborn in Christ. However, our new character evolves as we learn what it means to live by the power of the Holy Spirit and we become more and more like Christ. The former part which is instantaneous is frequently called justification. The second part is the the gradual evolution and it is often called sanctification. The problem is that many people stop at the first part because they just didn't get the message right. They think that if they say the right words then it is the end of it, but it isn't the saying the words that justifies us, but the believing the words. These people never experience renewal and transformation because they distorted the message from being based on grace to works. Believing the power in those words makes us new people and it is not the end, but the beginning. A new beginning and a fresh start.The third part of salvation is called glorification and we have to wait for that in hope and anticipation. It is like waiting for all Christmases wrapped up in one. It is a certainty, but because we have to wait it drives us crazy, in a nice way.In this world we need to expect God to deliver on his promises. He always has and always will. It is the only certainty we have. The first certainty is that he can give us a new spirit. The second is that we can be transformed into new and better people. The final certainty is that we will be given a new home and perfect bodies that will never change. Another certainty is that there is no hope for the world or its people apart from Jesus. Suffering is increasing and the world is getting worse. That puts everybody in a position where they have choose which set of certainties they will go for.I have made my decision. Everybody has to choose for themselves.
 

cedarhart

When good men do nothing, evil will triumph.Take a
Nov 17, 2008
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Hey there! You make some excellent points! However, what I was referring to is the very original, first creation of each Soul. As I stated in the 1st Age which is Heavenly and we are all still Spiritual bodies. Your response was great for Souls as humans. But even those are dependent upon genetic inheritance factors where neurotransmitters control behaviors and decisions. They have mutated from the perfection of the original design for humans.In the very beginning, our Souls were made perfect and equal by God. They had to be or we would not be responsible for our choices and God could not hold us responsible if, for example, He held back some ability from some selected few or chose to enchance others. That wouldn't be fair for judgement. So my question is, "How did we get to the point in Spiritual bodies in Heaven where some rebelled and/or sinned? What happened?" All things being equal in the beginning and ending so unbalanced.
 

n2thelight

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QUOTE (cedarhart @ Feb 26 2009, 04:54 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69941
In the very, very beginning of the 1st Earth Age, God created ALL. When it came to designing the Souls, did He create them all the same? Particularly, did God bestow each with the same equal amounts of knowledge, physical abilities, and opportunities? That would mean that we each were presented with the same available choices of free will. We all had a “level playing field.”If this is true, how is it that so many went separate ways in their choices of moral standards such as loyalty and honor? If we were all made equal, which is only fair, why are there so many who chose to be self-indulgent and envious? With the same intellectual tools, why wouldn’t we all develop the same, knowing there would be consequences that would occur?Is there such a thing as Spiritual Evolution? Cedarhart
Hello Cedarhart, I like the question,and I've been thinking about an answer since I read it Thursday morning.My opinion,I think as we do now,some of us simply made wrong choices.I think we were all made equal,with an opportunity to move up in whatever kind of structure we were living in at the time,which Im sure was more than fair to us all.But of course we all know the worst of those choices was following satan,thus bringing us too where we are now.
 

cedarhart

When good men do nothing, evil will triumph.Take a
Nov 17, 2008
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That's the only logical reasoning, unless someone has another. I've thought about this "unfolding" of the Spiritual behavior and intelligence for some time now. In order to understand how Lucifer fell, we must consider what his options would have been. Over the course of billions of years, as we know them, perhaps some Souls became bored and wanted more. But..........it was heaven. There is no boredom promised in Rev. So..........perhaps some chose to fish forever and wanted a boat. Then needed a bigger boat for more Souls to join in. Then others wanted a boat too. Then envy reared it's ugly head.What if Lucifer's choices were so honorable, that he was made Head Angel for his expression of love and giving. Then he expected more recognition and wanted to be in Christ's position. Again, envy. What if some Souls chose to improve on living standards and worked to make something better while others still chose to continue to fish. Then the ones fishing, wanted better living standards but had been left behind and did not progress. Again, envy.Every scenario that I could come up with, always seemed to lend itself to envy. Seeing that someone else had earned or created something that another didn't have but wanted. It comes down to choices that were made, even then. It seems that the same problems continue with being in human form also. "Nothing new under the sun!" This would explain how "sin" was nurtured and develop other poor behaviors and choices that prompted aggression upon another.So, is this how the Spirit evolved? What think ye?
 

For Life

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QUOTE
In the very beginning, our Souls were made perfect and equal by God. They had to be or we would not be responsible for our choices and God could not hold us responsible if, for example, He held back some ability from some selected few or chose to enchance others. That wouldn't be fair for judgement. So my question is, "How did we get to the point in Spiritual bodies in Heaven where some rebelled and/or sinned? What happened?" All things being equal in the beginning and ending so unbalanced.
I don't think souls are made equal by God. God has seen fit to give different gifts and abilities to different souls. Why would He make all souls equally perfect? Wouldn't that make souls even more likely to rebel against Him? I think so. I think God uses our inability and our weakness to draw us closer to Him. For whatever reason when He gives us abundantly we wander away. As soon as we have needs and can't do it ourselves, our first thought is to God. Remember God says He is a jealous God, He doesn't want us to wander away. It is interesting to try and guess what God's purpose and designs are but really only God knows.
 

Jordan

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QUOTE (For Life @ Mar 1 2009, 08:25 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70064
QUOTE (cedarhart @ Feb 26 2009, 07:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=69986
In the very beginning, our Souls were made perfect and equal by God. They had to be or we would not be responsible for our choices and God could not hold us responsible if, for example, He held back some ability from some selected few or chose to enchance others. That wouldn't be fair for judgement. So my question is, "How did we get to the point in Spiritual bodies in Heaven where some rebelled and/or sinned? What happened?" All things being equal in the beginning and ending so unbalanced.
I don't think souls are made equal by God. God has seen fit to give different gifts and abilities to different souls. Why would He make all souls equally perfect? Wouldn't that make souls even more likely to rebel against Him? I think so. I think God uses our inability and our weakness to draw us closer to Him. For whatever reason when He gives us abundantly we wander away. As soon as we have needs and can't do it ourselves, our first thought is to God. Remember God says He is a jealous God, He doesn't want us to wander away. It is interesting to try and guess what God's purpose and designs are but really only God knows.That is like saying God doesn't love us equally. Yes, we have different abilities, but honestly, do you think God wanted to make some of His children mentally disable / handicap before they were born?... before they were humans? Then here comes Judgment Day, judging a "mentally disable / handicap" soul saying to them, they were responsible, and didn't make it. I'm sorry but that obviously sounds like an unjust judgment.
 

For Life

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QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 1 2009, 10:38 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70066
I don't think souls are made equal by God. God has seen fit to give different gifts and abilities to different souls. Why would He make all souls equally perfect? Wouldn't that make souls even more likely to rebel against Him? I think so. I think God uses our inability and our weakness to draw us closer to Him. For whatever reason when He gives us abundantly we wander away. As soon as we have needs and can't do it ourselves, our first thought is to God. Remember God says He is a jealous God, He doesn't want us to wander away. It is interesting to try and guess what God's purpose and designs are but really only God knows.That is like saying God doesn't love us equally. Yes, we have different abilities, but honestly, do you think God wanted to make some of His children mentally disable / handicap before they were born?... before they were humans? Then here comes Judgment Day, judging a "mentally disable / handicap" soul saying to them, they were responsible, and didn't make it. I'm sorry but that obviously sounds like an unjust judgment.
Why is it saying that God loves us unequally? The parents of disabled kids love their children just as much as parents of other children, doesn't God love them at least as much as their parents? The fact that their are disabled children must say that it is God's will. I'm pretty sure what we value here is not what God values. What I'm trying to say by this is that God probably doesn't view it as a big deal like we do. I don't know for sure. I say at the end of my last statement that only God knows what God knows and we are just guessing. Maybe God doesn't love us equally. Maybe he loves us differently based on the different gifts he gives each of us. Maybe we are judged based on what we do with the gifts we are given.
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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QUOTE (For Life @ Mar 1 2009, 03:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70080
QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 1 2009, 11:38 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70066
That is like saying God doesn't love us equally. Yes, we have different abilities, but honestly, do you think God wanted to make some of His children mentally disable / handicap before they were born?... before they were humans? Then here comes Judgment Day, judging a "mentally disable / handicap" soul saying to them, they were responsible, and didn't make it. I'm sorry but that obviously sounds like an unjust judgment.
Why is it saying that God loves us unequally? The parents of disabled kids love their children just as much as parents of other children, doesn't God love them at least as much as their parents? The fact that their are disabled children must say that it is God's will. I'm pretty sure what we value here is not what God values. What I'm trying to say by this is that God probably doesn't view it as a big deal like we do. I don't know for sure. I say at the end of my last statement that only God knows what God knows and we are just guessing. Maybe God doesn't love us equally. Maybe he loves us differently based on the different gifts he gives each of us. Maybe we are judged based on what we do with the gifts we are given.God loves those children much more than a human parent. And what I say has nothing to do with gifts... gifts are just an extension. What I'm saying here is, God can't create His children with a disable mind, and then judged them to Hell, just because they are mentally disabled. God is fair and He loved us equally. People who are mentally disabled... God is not going to hold someone accountable because of that.
 

Dunamite

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QUOTE (cedarhart @ Mar 1 2009, 06:21 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70063
That's the only logical reasoning, unless someone has another. I've thought about this "unfolding" of the Spiritual behavior and intelligence for some time now. In order to understand how Lucifer fell, we must consider what his options would have been. Over the course of billions of years, as we know them, perhaps some Souls became bored and wanted more. But..........it was heaven. There is no boredom promised in Rev. So..........perhaps some chose to fish forever and wanted a boat. Then needed a bigger boat for more Souls to join in. Then others wanted a boat too. Then envy reared it's ugly head.What if Lucifer's choices were so honorable, that he was made Head Angel for his expression of love and giving. Then he expected more recognition and wanted to be in Christ's position. Again, envy. What if some Souls chose to improve on living standards and worked to make something better while others still chose to continue to fish. Then the ones fishing, wanted better living standards but had been left behind and did not progress. Again, envy.Every scenario that I could come up with, always seemed to lend itself to envy. Seeing that someone else had earned or created something that another didn't have but wanted. It comes down to choices that were made, even then. It seems that the same problems continue with being in human form also. "Nothing new under the sun!" This would explain how "sin" was nurtured and develop other poor behaviors and choices that prompted aggression upon another.So, is this how the Spirit evolved? What think ye?
I think that you are on dangerous ground. I am not sure where you are getting this from. It is not scriptural. Trying to attribute motives to Satan or anyone else is dangerous business.We were not created by Lucifer. We owe him no allegiance and to try to exonerate him by looking at his motives is counter to the desire of our creator. God is truth. He is righteous and good and nothing else matters. If Lucifer stands against God that is enough for us to stand against him. His motives do not come into it.Sin was not nurtured. It did not evolve. Something is true or not true. They are mutually exclusive. There are no transitional stages from truth to lie. You can go from truth to lie in the twinkling of an eye because they are opposites. As soon as you wander from the truth then it becomes a lie. As soon as Satan wandered from God's path and set his own course he was engaged in sin. That was the first lie and the first rebellion.All other lies and rebellions are based on this one, including our own.
Genesis 3: 1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."​
That is sin in a nutshell. As soon as we believe that "you will be like God" then you are sinning. There is no such thing as being like God.