No one can see the Kingdom of God unless...

ScottA · Jan 6, 2020

DNB said:
Scott, you're becoming very difficult, ...eternal includes forever, but forever does not include eternal.
Do you understand the difference, not only in meaning, but especially in context? As in, the word used in your quote was forever, not eternal, you argued from the meaning of the word eternal.
I showed the limitations of forever, i.e. for the unsaved will be dead forever, and saved will live forever. In this context, the usage of the word forever doesn't have the connotation of eternal.
Why in the world was this explanation necessary? You clearly have a bias, that is not allowing you to be objective.

I see the dictionary definition was of no help. It should have been. Nonetheless, it does show you wrong.

As for your explanation, you are defining "forever" as if without Christ, and "eternal" as with Christ...as if those "in Christ" are not "One" with Him and God ("the same yesterday, today, and forever") as biblically described and promised. You simply have it wrong and have divided it into two different contexts...because you don't understand, nor believe what is written.

ScottA · Jan 6, 2020

DNB said:
...one thing that I've always learned, those who claim to speak with the authority of the Holy Spirit, are always the worst exegetes.
Scott, you are verging on qualifying for this stigma!
...or, out of interests sake, are you willing to affirm that you're correct in all your interpretations because you claim that 'As for me, it is the Spirit which discerns'? ...i'm sure that you won't answer this, or at least, in a straight-forward manner.

I am.

As for your understanding of the Holy Spirit...it is simply not biblical. Again, that is the problem here.

ScottA · Jan 6, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
i suggest that one of our limitations is our proclivity for accepting magic formulas that might make us immortal, as Emperors, Pharaohs, and Caesars have all sought to do

Perhaps...but that does not mean that God has not been perfectly clear regarding the truth, and that what has been prepared for those who love Him, is beyond the imagination of natural men.

mjrhealth · Jan 6, 2020

DNB said:
Seriously, you don't read the Bible? Or, did you just mean NIV, or chronological?

The only purpose the bible serves in my life is to post so called scripture to the smart christians who wont give Jesus 5 minutes of there time, I certainly dont need it to witness to anyone. and Jesus doesnt need it to save anyone.

stunnedbygrace · Jan 6, 2020

DNB said:
SBG, you're misinterpreting you scripture, in a very naive way.
Many names throughout the Bible are theophoric, that is, they use the name of God 'El', as part of their name.
Michael = Who is like God, Gabriel = Strength of God, Daniel = God's Judgement, many more...
Not to mention, the first thought that should've come to your head is that Israel was abandoned for almost 600 yrs. The covenantal promises were not fulfilled as of yet, it was the 'silent period in Israel's history. But finally, God has intervened in their favour, and supplied the Davidic king (Messiah) as prophesied. God was now with the Israelites again.

As far as Isaiah goes, Moses was called god in Exo 4:16 and 7:1, Elohim, Isaiah use El, same derivative as spoken above. El, and it derivatives, are not reserved for the Almighty God.
And, there is not a single trinitarian in the world that would ever call the Son, the Father. For, that is the only thing that differentiates them, that is, their names (yes, how stupid in and of itself).
Thus, this is not a viably, a god-man passage, it is superlative or hyperbole speech.

32 When they climbed back into the boat, the wind stopped. 33 Then the disciples worshiped him. “You really are the Son of God!” they exclaimed.

The above verse is in Mathew. My question is: why did Jesus not stop these men from worshiping Him? Why didn't He say, no, you must not worship Me, you must worship only God?

And in Mathew also, why did the magi worship Him when He was born?
11 They entered the house and saw the child with his mother, Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.

Why are people worshiping a man and not God? And why was this evil never addressed?

And when Jesus said, I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am, why did they then pick up stones to attempt to kill Him? Why did they think He should be killed for the statement?

And here is John:
John 10:30-33: “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’”

Was Jesus claiming to be, to use your words, "a God-man?" And isn't that why they wanted to kill Him?

And when I say, as John said, He was in the beginning with God And He WAS God, you have the same reaction as they did. You think it is blasphemous...

And also, in Revelation, they throw their crowns at the feet of the Lamb and they worship Him. This is what John saw in heaven, at the throne, in the future.

Episkopos · Jan 6, 2020

DNB said:
SBG, you're misinterpreting you scripture, in a very naive way.
Many names throughout the Bible are theophoric, that is, they use the name of God 'El', as part of their name.
Michael = Who is like God, Gabriel = Strength of God, Daniel = God's Judgement, many more...
Not to mention, the first thought that should've come to your head is that Israel was abandoned for almost 600 yrs. The covenantal promises were not fulfilled as of yet, it was the 'silent period in Israel's history. But finally, God has intervened in their favour, and supplied the Davidic king (Messiah) as prophesied. God was now with the Israelites again.

As far as Isaiah goes, Moses was called god in Exo 4:16 and 7:1, Elohim, Isaiah use El, same derivative as spoken above. El, and it derivatives, are not reserved for the Almighty God.
And, there is not a single trinitarian in the world that would ever call the Son, the Father. For, that is the only thing that differentiates them, that is, their names (yes, how stupid in and of itself).
Thus, this is not a viably, a god-man passage, it is superlative or hyperbole speech.

This is only so if the word EL is embedded in the name of the person. But in the case of Immanu-El...the words are separate in the Hebrew text. And this means that Immanu-el is not a name but a statement. "God is with us"

It is the akin to where the holy city is to be called "Yahweh shamah" or "The Lord is there"...at the end of Ezekiel.

DNB · Jan 6, 2020

ScottA said:
I see the dictionary definition was of no help. It should have been. Nonetheless, it does show you wrong.

As for your explanation, you are defining "forever" as if without Christ, and "eternal" as with Christ...as if those "in Christ" are not "One" with Him and God ("the same yesterday, today, and forever") as biblically described and promised. You simply have it wrong and have divided it into two different contexts...because you don't understand, nor believe what is written.

I described 'forever' as for both, the saved & unsaved, ...not, what you just stated. And explained how the word forever does not mean eternal, as used in this context.
So, I have absolutely no idea what you just attempted to explain?

DNB · Jan 6, 2020

ScottA said:
I am.

As for your understanding of the Holy Spirit...it is simply not biblical. Again, that is the problem here.

Wow, i wasn't expecting that!?
...like I said, such an audacious statement warrants only ridicule and dismissal!
You sound absurd, both in your exegesis, and your delusion.

DNB · Jan 6, 2020

mjrhealth said:
The only purpose the bible serves in my life is to post so called scripture to the smart christians who wont give Jesus 5 minutes of there time, I certainly dont need it to witness to anyone. and Jesus doesnt need it to save anyone.

Wow MJR, I'm shocked, ...all your insights are by personal revelation?

DNB · Jan 6, 2020

stunnedbygrace said:
32 When they climbed back into the boat, the wind stopped. 33 Then the disciples worshiped him. “You really are the Son of God!” they exclaimed.

The above verse is in Mathew. My question is: why did Jesus not stop these men from worshiping Him? Why didn't He say, no, you must not worship Me, you must worship only God?

And in Mathew also, why did the magi worship Him when He was born?
11 They entered the house and saw the child with his mother, Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.

Why are people worshiping a man and not God? And why was this evil never addressed?

And when Jesus said, I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am, why did they then pick up stones to attempt to kill Him? Why did they think He should be killed for the statement?

And here is John:
John 10:30-33: “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’”

Was Jesus claiming to be, to use your words, "a God-man?" And isn't that why they wanted to kill Him?

And when I say, as John said, He was in the beginning with God And He WAS God, you have the same reaction as they did. You think it is blasphemous...

And also, in Revelation, they throw their crowns at the feet of the Lamb and they worship Him. This is what John saw in heaven, at the throne, in the future.

Worshiping Jesus as the first-born of God's creation, is not idolatry, because he is not perceived as God, which is what idolatry is, i.e. worshiping someone or something as God. David was worshiped as were many characters in the Bible, that is, with the proper measure of respect and reverence.

The Pharisees & Sadducees constantly misunderstood Jesus, as did even his apostles 7 disciples, constantly. Who can imagine what went through there perverted minds as Jesus imparts very profound wisdom to them?

Either way SBG, you're taking inferred passages to define the most difficult, esoteric and implausible doctrine in all of Christendom.
Please tell me that you have passages that say 'god-man', 'two-natured', 'god the son', etc... For, I can do this with every other major doctrine in the NT, i.e. Gentiles into the Kingdom, Faith over Works, suffering Messiah.
Why can't just find one explicit & didactic verse on the issue, outside of antanaclasis or any other literary convention?

DNB · Jan 6, 2020

Episkopos said:
This is only so if the word EL is embedded in the name of the person. But in the case of Immanu-El...the words are separate in the Hebrew text. And this means that Immanu-el is not a name but a statement. "God is with us"

It is the akin to where the holy city is to be called "Yahweh shamah" or "The Lord is there"...at the end of Ezekiel.

Thank you Episkopos, ...I think my explanation still stands either way, that is, whether by name or statement, the principle being conveyed is the protracted abandonment of God, now being arrested by the long anticipated coming of the Messiah. God is fulfilling his promises to the Patriarchs by delivering the Christ, proving that God is now 'with his people' once again.
This is a very reasonable correlation as both themes, God's destruction of Israel & Judah and the Babylonian captivity, and the Davidic covenant, are extremely dominant concepts throughout the Bible. No contest, really.

stunnedbygrace · Jan 6, 2020

DNB said:
Worshiping Jesus as the first-born of God's creation, is not idolatry, because he is not perceived as God, which is what idolatry is, i.e. worshiping someone or something as God.

That doesn't make any sense to me at all. You can worship a person as long as you don't see the person as God?You can bow down and worship them as long as they aren't God and you don't see them as God? Meanwhile idolatry is worshiping anyone or anything BUT God. And meanwhile: I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I Am. So Jesus was saying He existed before Abraham was even born. In fact, He was saying He existed even before He Himself was born. And the Baptist agrees. He says: Someone is coming after me who is far greater than I am, for he existed long before me. If you look into it, John was born before Jesus, so how is it that John says, He existed long before me?

stunnedbygrace · Jan 6, 2020

Giuliano said:
It would be strange, wouldn't it, to read "every word of God" to mean "Jesus" in that verse? "That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Jesus that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." It would also be strange to think the "mouth of God" was a separate person, wouldn't it? So what could John 1:1 mean?

14 So the Word became human and made his home among us.

amadeus · Jan 6, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
What is this discussion about?

It has apparently become a discussion on the visions and dreams believers have. This is what is meant, I believe, by the ability or lack thereof to see the kingdom of God as per the title.

Giuliano · Jan 6, 2020

stunnedbygrace said:
14 So the Word became human and made his home among us.

I don't see "the Word" as a person in that passage. I see the Word of God leaving God and finding its perfection expression in Jesus who obeyed every Word that came from the mouth of God. Then the question for me is if I can receive the "engrafted word" and allow it to manifest in me as God wishes. I believe Jesus set an example for us, as sons of God (irrespective of physical sex) to follow.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

stunnedbygrace · Jan 6, 2020

Giuliano said:
I don't see "the Word" as a person in that passage.

That's fine. You don't have to see it as John saw it.

bbyrd009 · Jan 6, 2020

Giuliano said:
I don't see "the Word" as a person in that passage. I see the Word of God leaving God and finding its perfection expression in Jesus who obeyed every Word that came from the mouth of God. Then the question for me is if I can receive the "engrafted word" and allow it to manifest in me as God wishes. I believe Jesus set an example for us, as sons of God (irrespective of physical sex) to follow.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

"Jesus of Nazareth" seems to equate to "John Doe, from Nowhere" esp in rabbi-speak

bbyrd009 · Jan 6, 2020

stunnedbygrace said:
Isaiah said a virgin would have a son and he would be called Immanuel/ God with us.

Isaiah also said a child would be born and he would be called Mighty God, everlasting Father.

So John and Isaiah also agree.

but we can hear that like innocents, or understand how "the virgin will be with child" would have been heard by them at the time, sbg

i know this is prolly not pleasant but see we build this huge imaginary mindblock around "Jesus" bc we all want to get "saved" which to our minds has now become equated with "immortal" and wadr that is prolly not going to happen, ok
all go to the same place
you and your sons will be here with me
there is only One Immortal
No one has ever gone up to heaven
etc

Giuliano · Jan 6, 2020

stunnedbygrace said:
That's fine. You don't have to see it as John saw it.

You absolutely certain that you know how John saw it? Okay then.

stunnedbygrace · Jan 6, 2020

Giuliano said:
You absolutely certain that you know how John saw it? Okay then.

I think I have Johns mind on it...

In the beginning ( he expects the reader to go to these words in Genesis that he is referring to) the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He existed in the beginning with God.

Then he moves to the next part, creation.
God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.

He (John) calls the word of God a "he" and a "him."
HE was with God.
HE was God.
All we see was created through HIM.

This Word, this Him, brought life to everything that was created, and HIS life brought light to everyone. (Here, I think I have Johns mind on it too - he is speaking not of the sun and moon, but of the light spoken of before the sun and moon.

And then, John speaks of this light also as a "him." He says God sent the Baptist to tell about the light, so everyone would believe through "him", this light.

So to John, the Word of God is a him.
The light is a him.

No one can see the Kingdom of God unless...

Can you see the Kingdom of God in your midst?

Yes I can

No I cant

I dont understand the question

The kingdom has not fully come in yet

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