Tradition

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herald

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When we replace God's Word with our tradition, we are siding with the Usurper, who said, "Yea, hath God said...?" Gen 3:1.The Jews added hundreds of rules and regulations to the keeping of the Sabbath. Jesus did not defer to their tradition. How did Jesus keep the Sabbath? By worshiping the Father and meeting human need.How are we to worship the Lord? It is laid out in Psalm 150. We are to praise Him with the sound of the trumpet, with psaltery and harp, with the timbrel and dance, with stringed instruments and organs. We are to praise Him upon the loud cymbals, and the high sounding cymbals.In Isa 53:4 in the Hebrew it reads, "Surely He hath born our sicknesses and pains." Just as Jesus bore our sin, He, also, bore our sickness and pain. Although, I come from an extended family of six (soon to be seven) doctors, five nurses, one veterinarian, and one chemical engineer, Jesus has been my Healer for forty years. I recommend the book, Christ,The Healer by F.F. Bosworth. Claim His promises.In Revelation 9:21;18:23;21:8;22:15 the word, "sorcery," is "pharmakeia," "pharmakeus," "pharmakon," "pharmakos." (You might want to do a word search on "Google"). Every pharmaceutical has side effects. But, when you trust in His promises, He will heal you, and He will be glorified. Jesus did not do many works in Nazareth, because of their unbelief. Mt 13:58. Unbelief comes out of an evil heart. Heb 3:12. God is looking for faith in Him and in His Word. "So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." Rom 10:17.The New Testament Church was Pentecostal. The pattern for church worship was laid out in 1 Corinthians 12, by the Apostle to the Gentiles - the Apostle Paul: the Word of wisdom, the Word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, divers kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. The New Testament Church was interactive.Where in the Scripture are there female pastors? "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilante, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre, but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride, he fall into the condemnation of the Devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the Devil." 1 Tim 3:1-7. It is for a man to rule the church, and to be in authority over God's people.The abstaining from unclean meats was never taught to the Gentiles. Jesus, the clean, became an offering for the unclean, so that we may be clean. It was a part of the Ceremonial law, which was nailed to the cross. Col 2:14. The Apostle Paul wrote, "I know and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that, there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean...For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." Rom 14:14,17.Hellfire is not eternal. Jeremiah 17:27 says Jerusalem was to be destroyed with unquenchable fire. Jerusalem is no longer burning. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or, eternal fire. Jude 7. And that fire turned them "into ashes" as a warning to "those that should live ungodly." 2 Pe 2:6. These cities are not burning today.The word "forever" is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have, already, ended. In Jonah 2:6, "forever" means three days and nights. Jonah 1:17. In Deut 23:3, this means, "10 generations." In the case of man, this means, "as long as he lives," or, "until death." 1 Sam 1:22,28;Ex 21:6;Ps 48:14.The Devil will be cast into the lake of fire, be turned into ashes, and cease to exist. Rev 20:10;Ezek 28:18,19.The word "hell" is translated from several different words with various meaning: 31 times from "sheol," which means "the grave," 10 times from "Gehenna," which means "the place of burning." This is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Ge-Hinnom," which means the "Valley of Hinnom." This valley southwest of Jerusalem, was a garbage dump. Though at one time it smoldered, it no longer does today.In Matt 25:46 it says the wicked will receive "everlasting punishment," but not punishing which would be continuous. The punishment of the wicked is death, which is everlasting. The Wicked, the Beast, the False prophet, the Devil, those that receive the mark of the Beast will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Rev 19:20;20:10. Death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14. And whosoever is not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:15.Jesus said, "He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My Words, hath one that judgeth him: the Word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me; He gave Me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak, therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak." John 12:48-50. We will be judged by the Word of God.We should imitate the Bereans: "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11.Our allegiance must be to the Word of God, alone.
 

jules

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Feb 24, 2009
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Hell, an interesting subject in itself.There are 31 occurences of the word 'Hell' in the OT.First time mentioned in Deuteronomy 32:22, barely before Josua leads Israel to cross the river Jordan (means that Adam, Noah, Abraham and on until Moses - didn't know they had to worry about 'hell').There have been numerous instances where OT characters have led their life less than 'Godly', however - Judaism doesn't seem to know much about the type of hell Christians have been told to fear.Some time ago I was able to contact and discuss the subject of hell with some seriously orthodox Rabbis, Professors and teachers of Judaism, interpreters of the Torah to various Jewish Councils (online conference).Reasoning that Jesus was essentially a Hebrew - living under AND confirming the validity of the Mosaic Law, surely some part of Judaism would reflect the teachings about hell in the NT - so I thought.Part of the discussion was centred on the fruit & failure of the High Priests and Prophets Eli & Samuel.In both occasions both men utterly failed to demonstrate anything like the qualities that are asked of a bishop (1. Tim 3:1-7) - especially when one considers that it was the 'un-corrected' or 'un-punished' sins of their sons which caused Israel to demand the 'turning away from God' and the making of a king for themselves! (1. Sam 2:22-36; 1. Sam 8:1-5)It can't be stressed strongly enough (IMHO) that these two men, whilst doing mighty works for God on the one side, absolutely negelected to either train or punish their sons - so much so that the elders of Israel knew, once the fathers had died, their sons' corruption would get worse (because they didn't even respect their fathers NOR God's laws while the fathers were still alive). It is evident that both men KNEW exactly how to administer even the strictest of punishments to other 'breakers of the law'. Deut 21:18-23; is quite clear about how to deal with such sons. So, not only failures at being godly fathers - also hypocrites, because pronouncing punishment according to the law unto others!Unfortunately, my questions re hell were immediately rebuffed - it was instantly apparent to them that a christian was asking those questions. Ergo, the assumption was that my presence there was either for the purpose of creating disturbance/mockery, or trying to turn orthodox goats into liberal, spiritually free sheep .... it ended pretty soon ;-) (was not my intention though), but not before confirming that Judaism knows nothing of hell as punishment in the way Christians assume/believe it is. They simply 'belong' to the Lord, therefore hell was a complete non-event, and that was that. That's why members of the Hebrew faith don't see the need for conversion, repentance, change of character or such ....Of course, I was advised that everything hinges on their belief that they are NOT the 'chosen people', but rather the 'CHOOSING PEOPLE'. It is they who chose Jahwe to be their God, as indicated time and time again when people like Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and so on - 'decided' to follow the God of their fathers. That's a HUGE principle, only counter-acted in the NT by Jesus in John 15:16 ......For any serious students learning about God/Bible/Holy Spirit the questions soon come to the crux of a matter: IF God can waive or execute punishment whenever, if the degree of sinning is NOT a factor in the punishment (Hell is opened for NT souls?, but not for OT sinners?), fairness of God has nothing to do with it, things done 'in faith' are just, things done without faith are un-just ..... how can ANYONE be sure what to do? Our allegiance to the 'WORD of God' alone?It's only through revelation, anointing, quickening of the Holy Spirit that anyone CAN know that the words we read in the WORD are truth. Without THAT revelation, well - one might as well read words from other 'empty' (as we know) so-called holy books. Any muslim, mormon, jehova's witness I have talked to - knows heaps about 'allegiance to the word of god'. It is the backing up of HIS word which confirms the truth to a believer. Not stories or words. Mark 16:20. The pharisees and Jesus had the same words. The people of Jerusalem and surrounds saw & experienced the difference of Jesus' words through the accompanying miracles, love & compassion. Without those attributes - they would have only heard words similar to those of the religious leaders. The difference was LIFE. Something happened when Jesus' spoke. He made 'contact' with the souls of the needy. It was the LIFE in Jesus' words which distinguished him from the numerous philosophers and religious zealots in their times. Rivers of Life flowed from his lips - something which he put into us when He filled us with the Holy Spirit! John 7:38The mentioning of how often words like 'forever' occur in the Bible and the different meanings which have been applied to those words, is interesting. Understanding/accepting God's 'flexibility' (some call it 'being-led-by-the-Holy-Spirit') re when is something a sin?; how worthy of punishment is it?; is there grace available at present?; will it be followed by hell & damnation at a later stage? - again confirms that every soul stands before the Lord alone - and must give an account of his/her actions - which should have been based on what the person has garnered from life & communication with Him. No one can excuse him/herself with the failings of another soul. And applying same principle - nobody can carry another soul into heaven (=place where God resides)It therefore follows that neither preacher, pastor, priest, bishop, deakon - nor apostle has ANY authority besides speaking from his own experience, and perhaps passing on what God has taught him. Note well, what God (directly) has taught/anointed to him - not some bible college or theological institution. With the way the world has gone over the last 40 years, it seems that many churches and religious preachers have completely missed the mark - and created another 'instead-of-God' (anti-christ) to replace our personal revelation from our Creator.Hosea 4:6; My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.My People are DESTROYED for Lack of KNOWLEDGE (includes personal knowledge of our Creator)So sad.........Jules
 

shutin45

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Feb 18, 2009
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QUOTE (herald @ Feb 28 2009, 07:49 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70034
When we replace God's Word with our tradition, we are siding with the Usurper, who said, "Yea, hath God said...?" Gen 3:1.The Jews added hundreds of rules and regulations to the keeping of the Sabbath. Jesus did not defer to their tradition. How did Jesus keep the Sabbath? By worshiping the Father and meeting human need.How are we to worship the Lord? It is laid out in Psalm 150. We are to praise Him with the sound of the trumpet, with psaltery and harp, with the timbrel and dance, with stringed instruments and organs. We are to praise Him upon the loud cymbals, and the high sounding cymbals.In Isa 53:4 in the Hebrew it reads, "Surely He hath born our sicknesses and pains." Just as Jesus bore our sin, He, also, bore our sickness and pain. Although, I come from an extended family of six (soon to be seven) doctors, five nurses, one veterinarian, and one chemical engineer, Jesus has been my Healer for forty years. I recommend the book, Christ,The Healer by F.F. Bosworth. Claim His promises.In Revelation 9:21;18:23;21:8;22:15 the word, "sorcery," is "pharmakeia," "pharmakeus," "pharmakon," "pharmakos." (You might want to do a word search on "Google"). Every pharmaceutical has side effects. But, when you trust in His promises, He will heal you, and He will be glorified. Jesus did not do many works in Nazareth, because of their unbelief. Mt 13:58. Unbelief comes out of an evil heart. Heb 3:12. God is looking for faith in Him and in His Word. "So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." Rom 10:17.The New Testament Church was Pentecostal. The pattern for church worship was laid out in 1 Corinthians 12, by the Apostle to the Gentiles - the Apostle Paul: the Word of wisdom, the Word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, divers kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. The New Testament Church was interactive.Where in the Scripture are there female pastors? "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilante, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre, but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride, he fall into the condemnation of the Devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the Devil." 1 Tim 3:1-7. It is for a man to rule the church, and to be in authority over God's people.The abstaining from unclean meats was never taught to the Gentiles. Jesus, the clean, became an offering for the unclean, so that we may be clean. It was a part of the Ceremonial law, which was nailed to the cross. Col 2:14. The Apostle Paul wrote, "I know and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that, there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean...For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." Rom 14:14,17.Hellfire is not eternal. Jeremiah 17:27 says Jerusalem was to be destroyed with unquenchable fire. Jerusalem is no longer burning. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or, eternal fire. Jude 7. And that fire turned them "into ashes" as a warning to "those that should live ungodly." 2 Pe 2:6. These cities are not burning today.The word "forever" is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have, already, ended. In Jonah 2:6, "forever" means three days and nights. Jonah 1:17. In Deut 23:3, this means, "10 generations." In the case of man, this means, "as long as he lives," or, "until death." 1 Sam 1:22,28;Ex 21:6;Ps 48:14.The Devil will be cast into the lake of fire, be turned into ashes, and cease to exist. Rev 20:10;Ezek 28:18,19.The word "hell" is translated from several different words with various meaning: 31 times from "sheol," which means "the grave," 10 times from "Gehenna," which means "the place of burning." This is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Ge-Hinnom," which means the "Valley of Hinnom." This valley southwest of Jerusalem, was a garbage dump. Though at one time it smoldered, it no longer does today.In Matt 25:46 it says the wicked will receive "everlasting punishment," but not punishing which would be continuous. The punishment of the wicked is death, which is everlasting. The Wicked, the Beast, the False prophet, the Devil, those that receive the mark of the Beast will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Rev 19:20;20:10. Death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14. And whosoever is not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:15.Jesus said, "He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My Words, hath one that judgeth him: the Word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me; He gave Me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak, therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak." John 12:48-50. We will be judged by the Word of God.We should imitate the Bereans: "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11.Our allegiance must be to the Word of God, alone.
Dear Jules.You have written much Truth that I'll reread, but wanted to comment that while women PREACHING isn't Biblical, Joel 2:28, which is sometimes used to justify it, says they will Prophecy.1st Corinthians 14:34 says for women to keep silent in church too. BUT.... 1st Corinthians 14:3 says that "he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort".So my question/point is, females who prophecy as spoken of in Joel, may not be preaching, but edifying, exhorting, and comforting.Is that right? Is that okay? How can Joel 2:28 not be right? Can it be right because women are prophesying (as defined in Corinthians) and they're not preaching?Thank you for writing the post you were led to
smile.gif
. PLEASE continue to do as you're led to in these possible/probable Last Days. Your Brother in Christ,Jim
 

herald

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Oct 2, 2006
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Actually, there are over 180 Messianic congregations in Israel. Those who believe, that, Jesus is the Messiah. I had the privilege of leading two Jews to their Messiah. The veil is being lifted - we are in the end of all things."Not as though the Word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for seed." Rom 9:6-8."Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made, He saith not, And to thy seeds as of many: but as of One, And to thy seed which is Christ." "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." Ga 3:16,29.In Ga 3:7 we read, "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham."We are the true Israel - those who are of faith - whether Jew or Gentile.
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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QUOTE (shutin45 @ Feb 28 2009, 06:44 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70050
Dear Jules.You have written much Truth that I'll reread, but wanted to comment that while women PREACHING isn't Biblical, Joel 2:28, which is sometimes used to justify it, says they will Prophecy.1st Corinthians 14:34 says for women to keep silent in church too. BUT.... 1st Corinthians 14:3 says that "he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort".So my question/point is, females who prophecy as spoken of in Joel, may not be preaching, but edifying, exhorting, and comforting.Is that right? Is that okay? How can Joel 2:28 not be right? Can it be right because women are prophesying (as defined in Corinthians) and they're not preaching?Thank you for writing the post you were led to
smile.gif
. PLEASE continue to do as you're led to in these possible/probable Last Days. Your Brother in Christ,Jim
Jim, actually if woman preaching isn't biblical, why did Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17 say...Joel 2:28 - And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:Acts 2:17 - And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:If woman aren't allowed to preached, why did woman in Christ's time ministered to people?Mark 15:40 - There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;Mark 15:41 - (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him; ) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.And lastly, why did God in the Old Testament uses woman? And why did Christ allow women to preach since He is God.
 

jules

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Feb 24, 2009
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Thanks Jim, and I like your question.As far as I have read in the Word & understood from my years 'in the wilderness with God', there is a vital difference between Prophets & the Priesthood/Assembly.Prophets have generally always worked 'outside' the established guidelines of a community, didn't need High Priests to tell them what to do, didn't have to answer to anyone BUT God, didn't shepherd a people, mostly turned up in times of need and direct intervention. Prophets easily walked in and out of King's courts, disregarding any human ranks, being no 'respecters of persons', dispensing God's judgements/blessings/miracles as led by Him - ALWAYS 'on a mission from God'.The tasks of priests were elsewhere. Routine administration of God's laws and providing a structure for people to lean on. God hadn't intended to use people as mouth piece, but when many rejections finally culminated to the situation in Deut 15:18-22, God saw fit to give the people what they desired - and refrained from dealing with people individually, until the curtain in the temple (separating the most Holy from the outside) was 'rent in two' (Matt 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45) at Jesus' crucifixion. Therewith, our High Priest Jesus Christ made our separation from God null & void, opening the way of salvation through his sacrifice, followed by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Direct access possible WITHOUT the need of human intercessors!The last godly prophetess mentioned in the NT was Anna (Hannah) from Luke 2:36, who was obviously left over from the OT - and kind of bridged both eras. The only other prophetess who gets a mention is Jezebel in Rev 2:20; usually accepted as being descriptive of the 'Whore of Babylon', Roman Catholic church - based on the Babylonian cultic system & world rule.I have heard of a few prophetesses who, in modern days, were used by God to announce the working of miracles to a group of people.I have also heard of & experienced more instances, where the Holy Spirit led members of congregations to prophecy according to 1 Cor 14:26-33; with individual issues addressed or promised. There are wonderful examples available in history; one of them during WWII in Birmingham/England - where the members of a Christian group were warned by prophecy to leave their city within the coming few hours, only to take what was necessary and warn their families, friends & anyone who'd listen on the way. Those who 'believed' the prophecy left, the unbelievers perished in the bombing raid of the german airforce. That was a little miracle in itself .......... the BIG miracle was that the german airforce had mistaken Birmingham for Coventry (two huge cities nextto each other, one more urban - the other, one of Englands most industrial cities), and accidentally bombed the wrong city. I can assure you that those Christians & friends saved by that prophecy have testified of the actuality and relevance of the gift of prophecy today.I guess my answer would be this: Within Christian circles, prayer & study groups - who seek God's direction regularly, align their life and activities according to His word - God has no real need to raise one person as a prophet, seeing that the Holy Spirit is already at work within those members to lead & edify them, and all have access to His leading through Jesus Christ.An independent prophet would probably be called to take worldy governments, leaders or companies to task ..... it has happened on the African continent, where whole countries were freed from the bondage of pagan & demonic bondage in one swoop, with God's mouth piece - the prophet/prophetess - proclaiming His authority, confirming it with signs following. Not unlike Elijah's showdown with the baal's priests in 1 King 18 - a FANTASTIC read !!! ;-)So, if a 'self-styled' prophet/prophetess would come to me in a Christian assembly environment and say "... thus shows me the Lord .... ", I'd carefully reply that that would be ok, and I'd wait until God showed me too ..... Too many shaky marriages have been established by one partner telling the other one: "... God has showed me that you're to be my wedded husband/wife ...", to which a wise pastor should have interjected, "... well - that sounds great, let's just wait until God also shows the prospective victim of love..."
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... other than that, one wants to be VERY wise and led by the Holy Spirit - BEFORE telling a prophetess to shut up! .....Jules
 

Jilli

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Interesting thoughts. I was bought up to believe that women are to keep silent in the church and not do a single thing up the front (other than perhaps helping with the singing).I now go to a local community church that has a woman Pastor which has taken me awhile to get used to. I have been watching her closely to see any discrepencies etc in her life and her teaching. We have now been at the church for 18 months and I have slowly changed my views. She is an excellent pastor and probably better than a lot of men pastors or ministers that I have encountered. She has given us some very practical teaching that is not heavy theological stuff, and not airy fairy fluffy stuff. She is very wise and discerning and knowledgable and has impressed me a lot. The point I am trying to make is that she (and her husband) came to NZ from a call of God to take the position up in our church that no-one else had stepped up to do, and is doing a good job of the task. Who am I to say that God has not placed her here in this position and has given her the obvious gifts and abilities for this calling.
 

Jordan

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QUOTE (TuiBird @ Feb 28 2009, 08:54 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70055
Interesting thoughts. I was bought up to believe that women are to keep silent in the church and not do a single thing up the front (other than perhaps helping with the singing).I now go to a local community church that has a woman Pastor which has taken me awhile to get used to. I have been watching her closely to see any discrepencies etc in her life and her teaching. We have now been at the church for 18 months and I have slowly changed my views. She is an excellent pastor and probably better than a lot of men pastors or ministers that I have encountered. She has given us some very practical teaching that is not heavy theological stuff, and not airy fairy fluffy stuff. She is very wise and discerning and knowledgable and has impressed me a lot. The point I am trying to make is that she (and her husband) came to NZ from a call of God to take the position up in our church that no-one else had stepped up to do, and is doing a good job of the task. Who am I to say that God has not placed her here in this position and has given her the obvious gifts and abilities for this calling.
I understand that, but God never intended for women to be floormats to men... not even once mentioned in the bible where He uses women as floormats. Hence the reason I get these alot... telling women to shut up... well according to some people and churches.Say you were in a situation between two random people... one hates God and one loves God.TuiBird, I got a question for you? Here is a thoughtful question?1.Would you listen to a male wolf over a female shepherd?2. Would you listen to a male shepherd over a female wolf?...To be honest, I'm not going to say this just to you, but I am going to say this in general... To be honest, I am completely tired of the verse being perverted (I Corinthians 14:34) about women being silence. Again, I am not saying it just you, saying this in general.
 

herald

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Oct 2, 2006
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There were women prophetesses and evangelists in the New Testament. That is different then a pastor who sits in authority over God's people.Where do you find any Scripture, that, says a woman can be a pastor of a church?Again, you are speaking of tradition, and not the Word of God. The, only, authority is the Word of God.
 

Jilli

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Feb 23, 2009
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QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 1 2009, 03:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70056
I understand that, but God never intended for women to be floormats to men... not even once mentioned in the bible where He uses women as floormats. Hence the reason I get these alot... telling women to shut up... well according to some people and churches.Say you were in a situation between two random people... one hates God and one loves God.TuiBird, I got a question for you? Here is a thoughtful question?1.Would you listen to a male wolf over a female shepherd?2. Would you listen to a male shepherd over a female wolf?...To be honest, I'm not going to say this just to you, but I am going to say this in general... To be honest, I am completely tired of the verse being perverted (I Corinthians 14:34) about women being silence. Again, I am not saying it just you, saying this in general.
Hi Jordan,Im not quite sure what you mean by that question. Of course I would listen to the shepherd more, (or the one who loves God) whether male or female. And I'm discerning/mature enough to know the difference.I understand and agree with you over women pastors but I know this pastor of ours is a true christian. It puzzles me as she says God bought her to lead our church after lots of prayer.Who am I honestly to say that is not so and she is lying and who am I to say what God does or doesn't do for others.She is a genuine, gifted pastor and I would be the first one out of there (or else confronting her!) if I saw anything in her that did not match up.As for the verse in 1 Cor. yes, that is stated very black and white, but as with a lot of the NT verses when read knowing about the customs and traditionsof the day back then, quite often a slightly different perspective is revealed or added. It is not perverting a verse to go into the background of the day andfind that there was a particular reason why Paul (or whoever) said what they did.
 

shutin45

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QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 28 2009, 11:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70056
I understand that, but God never intended for women to be floormats to men... not even once mentioned in the bible where He uses women as floormats. Hence the reason I get these alot... telling women to shut up... well according to some people and churches.Say you were in a situation between two random people... one hates God and one loves God.TuiBird, I got a question for you? Here is a thoughtful question?1.Would you listen to a male wolf over a female shepherd?2. Would you listen to a male shepherd over a female wolf?...To be honest, I'm not going to say this just to you, but I am going to say this in general... To be honest, I am completely tired of the verse being perverted (I Corinthians 14:34) about women being silence. Again, I am not saying it just you, saying this in general.
Jordan I feel for women who have been treated like floormats. I PM'ed someone who posts here about how some of them get stuck in abusive relationships because of complex phenomena like low self-esteem etc. We know evil is ultimately behind all that though.Women were created to be helpmates for us (males). Anyone who outright mistreats women or doesn't give them the respect they deserve has a problem. They deserve equal pay for equal work etc. I could go on, but that's not why I'm writing.If you'll re-read my post you'll note that I was trying to resolve the things written in Joel that I feel are happening now and have been happening for a while with the very clear Scriptures about preachers ONLY.Consider Joyce Meyer. I wonder if she considers herself a preacher or a prophetess. I had just been reading related verses recently (1st Corinthians) and was surprised to see that prophecy was "edifying, exhorting, and comforting. I'd thought prophecy meant telling the future (not like evil, but like the Old Testament prophets did). Anyway, what Joyce does is exactly that!So, I had thought that while women are given guidelines/commands to obey regarding preaching etc., I knew that Joel 2:28 was RIGHT. BUT.....apparently preaching and prophecying are different. So, Daughters can (and thankfully have been
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) prophesy - as defined in 1st Corinthians 14:3 - without being preachers!I mean the following strictly as worded, not pointing a finger or accusing anyone here of such, but some people think homosexuality ( male AND female BTW) is okay - why science has even found we're born that way!, fornication is okay - gollee hormones kick in and it's only natural, that the Bible is just another religious book - Jesus can't be the only way, and many other things that fit their whatever. Unfortunately, the Bible is the Truth and what it says, whether we like it or not, is the way it is. We are to obey it whether we like it or not or we sin. I've found that trying to prayerfully understand the reasons and remember it's for our good, not harm, helps. Sadly, some things folks (I had to go through YEARS of such) will only learn some of those things after being put through trials and valleys. Blessed are those who will accept the Bibles Truth - like a good child listening to and obeying parents - and obey without being chastised and put through Gods "boot camp"
smile.gif
.Maybe this clarified where I was going, what I was trying to get to the Truth about, and my perspective towards women. AND... Thanks Jules! I think I have a better understanding now. I'm learning!!!
smile.gif
In Christ,Jim
 

Jordan

Active Member
Apr 6, 2007
4,875
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QUOTE (TuiBird @ Mar 1 2009, 05:28 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70087
QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 28 2009, 09:19 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70056
I understand that, but God never intended for women to be floormats to men... not even once mentioned in the bible where He uses women as floormats. Hence the reason I get these alot... telling women to shut up... well according to some people and churches.Say you were in a situation between two random people... one hates God and one loves God.TuiBird, I got a question for you? Here is a thoughtful question?1.Would you listen to a male wolf over a female shepherd?2. Would you listen to a male shepherd over a female wolf?...To be honest, I'm not going to say this just to you, but I am going to say this in general... To be honest, I am completely tired of the verse being perverted (I Corinthians 14:34) about women being silence. Again, I am not saying it just you, saying this in general.
Hi Jordan,Im not quite sure what you mean by that question. Of course I would listen to the shepherd more, (or the one who loves God) whether male or female. And I'm discerning/mature enough to know the difference.I understand and agree with you over women pastors but I know this pastor of ours is a true christian. It puzzles me as she says God bought her to lead our church after lots of prayer.Who am I honestly to say that is not so and she is lying and who am I to say what God does or doesn't do for others.She is a genuine, gifted pastor and I would be the first one out of there (or else confronting her!) if I saw anything in her that did not match up.As for the verse in 1 Cor. yes, that is stated very black and white, but as with a lot of the NT verses when read knowing about the customs and traditionsof the day back then, quite often a slightly different perspective is revealed or added. It is not perverting a verse to go into the background of the day andfind that there was a particular reason why Paul (or whoever) said what they did.I have no problem whatsoever for women "to keep silence" if a man preaches the Truth of God's Words. But I do have a problem for a women "to keep silence" if man all wants to do is preach their opinions that clearly contradicts God's Words. Hence the reason why I Corinthians 14:34 is being perverted as I was saying.Here for my explaining...Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Matthew 7:16 - Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Matthew 7:17 - Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.Matthew 7:18 - A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.Matthew 7:19 - Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Matthew 7:20 - Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.Too much scriptures to say, but I am glad that women are taking a stand.
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QUOTE (shutin45 @ Mar 1 2009, 06:17 PM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=70089][/url]
Jordan I feel for women who have been treated like floormats. I PM'ed someone who posts here about how some of them get stuck in abusive relationships because of complex phenomena like low self-esteem etc. We know evil is ultimately behind all that though.Women were created to be helpmates for us (males). Anyone who outright mistreats women or doesn't give them the respect they deserve has a problem. They deserve equal pay for equal work etc. I could go on, but that's not why I'm writing.If you'll re-read my post you'll note that I was trying to resolve the things written in Joel that I feel are happening now and have been happening for a while with the very clear Scriptures about preachers ONLY.Consider Joyce Meyer. I wonder if she considers herself a preacher or a prophetess. I had just been reading related verses recently (1st Corinthians) and was surprised to see that prophecy was "edifying, exhorting, and comforting. I'd thought prophecy meant telling the future (not like evil, but like the Old Testament prophets did). Anyway, what Joyce does is exactly that!So, I had thought that while women are given guidelines/commands to obey regarding preaching etc., I knew that Joel 2:28 was RIGHT. BUT.....apparently preaching and prophecying are different. So, Daughters can (and thankfully have been
smile.gif
) prophesy - as defined in 1st Corinthians 14:3 - without being preachers!I mean the following strictly as worded, not pointing a finger or accusing anyone here of such, but some people think homosexuality ( male AND female BTW) is okay - why science has even found we're born that way!, fornication is okay - gollee hormones kick in and it's only natural, that the Bible is just another religious book - Jesus can't be the only way, and many other things that fit their whatever. Unfortunately, the Bible is the Truth and what it says, whether we like it or not, is the way it is. We are to obey it whether we like it or not or we sin. I've found that trying to prayerfully understand the reasons and remember it's for our good, not harm, helps. Sadly, some things folks (I had to go through YEARS of such) will only learn some of those things after being put through trials and valleys. Blessed are those who will accept the Bibles Truth - like a good child listening to and obeying parents - and obey without being chastised and put through Gods "boot camp"
smile.gif
.Maybe this clarified where I was going, what I was trying to get to the Truth about, and my perspective towards women. AND... Thanks Jules! I think I have a better understanding now. I'm learning!!!
smile.gif
In Christ,Jim
I agree. The bible is truth. In fact, Christ did tell us to be as a little child. (Matthew 18:2-5) It means do away with our preconceived notions. However, it's not just men who are guilty of this... but also the women's side as well, because I am sure they are situation where women won't listen to the husband because they follow God... And there is situations where men wants women to do everything for them, just to be floormats...It's obvious that not all situation is the same. It varies.