The Truth About Hell

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setfree

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Hell (the Lake of Fire) is never described as being temporary. Instead, the eternal nature of hell is constantly stressed throughout Scripture: "The mighty man will become tinder and his work a spark; both will burn together, with no one to quench the fire." (Isaiah 1:31) "The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"" (Isaiah 33:14) "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (Isaiah 66:24) "His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matthew 3:12) "If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire." (Matthew 18:8) "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41) "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matthew 25:46) "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. ... And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'" (Mark 9:43-48) "His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Luke 3:17) "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9) "instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment." (Hebrews 6:2) "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7) "They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever." (Jude 1:13) "He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:10-11) "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10) The eternal nature of hell is constantly stressed throughout the Bible. Why is hell eternal? Why will the fires of hell burn forever? The purpose of hell is for the punishment of sinners, so if the fires of hell never go out then it must mean that the punishment of sinners will never end. If sinners were all annihilated in hell then at some point the fire would no longer have any "fuel" and would no longer be needed, so it would go out. However, hell is never described as being temporary. There is not a single passage of Scripture that specifically describes any sinners being totally annihilated, but there are passages which specifically describe sinners suffering agony forever.
 

savedbygrace57

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So when the earth is burned up...will these hills remain forever?
Whenever everlasting is used, its application has a spiritual meaning and not physical and temporal, everlasting means what it says..everlasting.. with your reasoning, then no one can be sure what everlasting life really means..its the same word..
 

Christian Mystic

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Praise the Lord setfree....let's look at your post....QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 11 2009, 09:24 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70620
The Bible specifically describes people being tormented in the Lake of Fire for ever and ever: "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
The key point here is the word "They". We have to define that term. The term "they" is a plural pronoun indicative of the individuals specifically named in a prior sentence or clause. Who is the "they"? The prior clause clearly states it is the "devil, who deceived them", and the, "beast and the false prophet". These are said to burn in the lake of fire (not capitalized in the text because it is a descriptive term not an actual title (we attribute that title theologically, but that's because we're prone to doing such things). So all this verse states is that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet burn forever. This says nothing about mankind. QUOTE
"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:9-11)
Here we see that the "smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever", this is describing a towering pillar of smoke that appears to rise out of sight, continuing on "for ever and ever". Not smoke ascending "forever and forever". Basic English here folks. The verse then specifies that those in the lake of fire have "no rest day or night"...but it doesn't specify how long they are there. All we can conclude is that they will not experience rest day or night for however long they are there, rather it be temporarily (as I propose) or forever (as you propose). QUOTE
These two passages describe the "beast" (the Antichrist), the "false prophet," and all those who receive the "mark of the beast" being tormented day and night for ever and ever in the lake of burning sulfur. Therefore, the Bible specifically describes sinners being tormented for eternity in hell, which provides Scriptural precedent for the view that all sinners will suffer eternal conscious agony in the Lake of Fire.
You're committing a big leap of logic here. Let's assume you're right and those named in these verses do indeed burn forever. The only ones specified are the devil, the beast, the false prophet, and those who received the mark of the beast. The vast majority of sinners aren't even mentioned here, for everyone lost thus far in human history haven't received the "mark of the beast". You're imposing the idea that this is therefore representative of all sinners. When the text is pretty clear as to who it is addressing. QUOTE
For example, in Revelation 14:9-11 and Revelation 20:10 (above), the apostle John shows us that the Lake of Fire is the place where certain sinners will be tormented forever, and then just five verses later he tells us that all sinners will be cast into that same Lake of Fire: "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15) Since the Lake of Fire is the place where the beast, the false prophet, etc., will be tormented forever, and since all sinners will be thrown into the same lake of burning sulfur, the most natural and reasonable conclusion is that all sinners will suffer conscious agony in hell for all eternity.
Not necessarily. The text then goes on to tell us....
Revelation 22 1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.​
It is clear that those who enter the New Jerusalem are glorified and saved. Those who are not in the book of life are condemned to the lake of fire. However, Paul states,
I Corinthians 15:22-2622For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.​
Paul states that just as in Adam ALL men die (both spiritually and physically), even so in Christ shall ALL men be made alive. ALL means ALL unless you want to call Paul a liar. All men shall find their life (both physically and spiritually) in Christ Jesus. That being said we return to the text in Revelation 22. We've seen that you are correct, those who are not in the book of life are condemned to endure the lake of fire. However, we soon see that there is a tree that is designed to facilitate "healing of the nations". Those who entered the New Jerusalem don't need healing...they were resurrected, glorified, blood bought, forgiven, set free, SAVED. Who's in need of healing? The text clearly implies that it is those who were condemned to endure the lake of fire. Every man "in his own order" shall be released as God sees proper when they have paid for their sins and shown absolute submission to God's authority....
Philippians 2:10-1110That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​
Then it can be said that all that the prophets foretold concerning mankind's reconciliation with God had been accomplished....
Acts 3:21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.​
The truth is that you're reading as far as the sinner's condemnation...but you're not continuing on to accepting the ultimate promise of God that the Gospel will be victorious unto all men in the very end. I asked this before...do you have loved ones who died not knowing Jesus Christ? This is an important question because it brings the issue home, into reality, and away from being an abstract theological concept. It's easy to say, "Sinners shall burn forever." It's much harder to say, "My grandmother will burn forever." Why would God burn your grandmother forever??? Surely, if she died not knowing Christ, she must be purified and punished for wrongs done...but what could possibly warrant God burning her forever???Let the Holy Ghost speak to your heart and reveal something far greater than anything religion is claiming. You see....the truth is that the Gospel will be victorious for all men. In the end ALL will be reconciled to God and Satan will have won NOTHING. QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 11 2009, 09:42 PM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=70623][/url]
Several Old Testament passages describe the eternal fire of hell in a way which clearly demonstrates the Jewish view that hell is a place of everlasting burning, not a place of annihilation: "The mighty man will become tinder and his work a spark; both will burn together, with no one to quench the fire." (Isaiah 1:31) "The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"" (Isaiah 33:14) "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (Isaiah 66:24) The first two passages above describe sinners burning in unquenchable fire. The imagery here is of eternal torment in fire, not total annihilation. The third passage says that a sinner's "worm" will not die, nor will his fire be quenched. This passage is quoted by Jesus in the New Testament: "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. ... And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'" (Mark 9:43-48) The Bible Knowledge Commentary (Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.147) explains this passage by saying that the Greek word geena ("Gehenna," often translated into English as "hell") refers to a site near Jerusalem that "became Jerusalem's refuse dump where fires burned continually to consume regular deposits of worm-infested garbage. In Jewish thought the imagery of fire and worms vividly portrayed the place of future eternal punishment for the wicked. ... The worm (internal torment) and the unquenchable fire (external torment) ... vividly portray the unending, conscious punishment that awaits all who refuse God's salvation. The essence of hell is unending torment and eternal exclusion from His presence." The reason the worm does not die and the fire does not go out is because sinners are never annihilated. They continue to exist forever, and therefore the worm has "food" to eat forever and the fire has fuel to consume forever.
You really should look into how the Jews understand these passages in the original Hebrew. Judaism doesn't teach an eternal Hell as you describe it. Early Christians understood it much the way Jews do today. So let's look at a verse of Scripture and I'll ask a YES or NO question... Let's look at Jude 7....
Jude 7 7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.​
To understand the concept of what "eternal" meant I have to ask.... Are the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha still burning today in the Middle East? Yes or no? This will define how the term "eternal" can speak of the nature of a thing and not the duration. QUOTE
In the following passage, Jesus makes a direct comparison between the eternal nature of life (for Christians) and the eternal nature of punishment (for sinners): "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal (aionios) fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ... Then they will go away to eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous to eternal (aionios) life." (Matthew 25:41,46) Notice that in each case, the word "eternal" is translated from the same Greek word aionios. The fire is "eternal" (aionios), the punishment is "eternal" (aionios), and the life is "eternal" (aionios). The implication is that a Christian's life will go on forever, the fires of hell will go on forever, and a sinner's punishment will go on forever.
Ahhhhh....but you're neglecting something. The term "aionios" here is an adjective describing the "punishment" mentioned in verse 46. The nature of that punishment will determine how we are to interpret "aionios". The Greek word for punishment here is "kolasis" The term "kolasis" doesn't speak of torment, torture, or retribution. Barclay put it this way...
"Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give."-William Barclay, 1907-1978, Christian Theologian and author​
So if the punishment is indeed a "kolasis" it is a remedial punishment the aionios must be understood as relating to the nature of that remedial punishment, not it's duration. Else why would Christ use this word to describe it when others would be far more suitable if never ending torments were in view? For example, my father whipped me with a belt when I was younger for cursing him to his face. I have never forgotten that punishment (kolasis) and it has left an eternal correction upon me. I'll never curse him again. So my father's punishment was an "eternal punishment", however, my father will not beat me forever. QUOTE (savedbygrace57 @ Mar 11 2009, 11:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70633
Whenever everlasting is used, its application has a spiritual meaning and not physical and temporal, everlasting means what it says..everlasting.. with your reasoning, then no one can be sure what everlasting life really means..its the same word..
The term "aionios" is an adjective used to describe a thing. Context must determine how we are to interpret this word, it cannot stand alone. For example the hills of Judea are referred to as the "everlasting hills". Does this mean that after the earth and all that is therein is burned up these hills will be floating unharmed in outer space? LOLOLOLOL Surely you jest! No, in this context it simply means that the author doesn't know how long the hills will endure, therefore they are "aionios" in the sense of "age enduring" not existing "forever". With Christ's own words in Matthew 25:46 we see that the punishment upon the wicked is described by the use of the word "kolasis" whose roots and usage in other Greek literature means "pruning" so that something can grow right. Therefore "aionios" as to be interpreted with this fact in view. The "pruning" is "eternal" in that it "eternally" sets straight the soul...the punishment purifies the wicked. I wish y'all realized how dangerous some of you are with a dictionary while ignoring proper laws of hermeneutics. Do any of you have a loved one who died without knowing Christ?
 

setfree

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I can only conclude that hell is a place of eternal, fiery, conscious agony where sinners will be shut out from the presence of God forever. I would much prefer to believe that sinners will receive a temporary punishment in hell (perhaps based on the extent and magnitude of their sins) before being put out of their misery by being annihilated. However, I can't find any justification at all in Scripture for that view, and therefore I must discard it. I believe that God is infinitely and perfectly fair, and therefore whatever punishment sinners receive will be perfectly fair and we will have no cause to accuse God of being unfair in any way. It seens that you are of the view which is sometimes called "Ultimate Reconciliation" or "Universal Salvation" or simply "Universalism." The basic idea is that sinners will not spend eternity in hell, nor will they be annihilated. Instead, every person who ever lived will ultimately receive salvation, even if they have to spend a period of time suffering in hell. Those who hold this view argue that the Greek words which are translated as "eternal" and "for ever and ever" do not actually mean eternal, and therefore no sinners will spend eternity in hell. Many of the flaws in this and other Universal Salvation arguments I will have to address later..I am tired now. It would be nice if Universalism were true, but I believe that this doctrine is flawed. The greatest weight of evidence that I see in Scripture supports the view that sinners will be tormented in hell for ever and ever, because God looks at sin with a deeper revulsion and hatred than we can ever imagine. Let the horror of the ultimate fate of sinners spur us on in our evangelism!
 

Christian Mystic

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Interesting article....
I AM A CONVINCED UNIVERSALISTby William BarclayI am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God. Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell. He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained. He did not believe in eternal punishment, but he did see the possibility of eternal penalty. And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification.Gregory of Nyssa offered three reasons why he believed in universalism. First, he believed in it because of the character of God. "Being good, God entertains pity for fallen man; being wise, he is not ignorant of the means for his recovery." Second, he believed in it because of the nature of evil. Evil must in the end be moved out of existence, "so that the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all." Evil is essentially negative and doomed to non-existence. Third, he believed in it because of the purpose of punishment. The purpose of punishment is always remedial. Its aim is "to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness." Punishment will hurt, but it is like the fire which separates the alloy from the gold; it is like the surgery which removes the diseased thing; it is like the cautery which burns out that which cannot be removed any other way.But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation.First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief. Jesus said: "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32). Paul writes to the Romans: "God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all" (Rom. 11:32). He writes to the Corinthians: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28). In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:4-6). The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word all.Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God. I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work. I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world. I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe.Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28). For me this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God - and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God. If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only King and Judge, God is Father - he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.[Quoted from William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, pg 65-67, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977.]
While too liberal and modern for much of the church, none can deny that William Barclay's astute commentary on Scripture has often been enlightening and deeply enriching.Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at the University of Glasgow, Barclay dedicated his life to "making the best biblical scholarship available to the average reader."The result was the Daily Study Bible, a set of commentaries on the New Testament, exploring verse by verse through Barclay's own translation of the New Testament, listing and examining every possible interpretation known to Barclay and providing all the background information he considered possibly relevant. The 17 volumes of the set were all instant best-sellers and continue to be so to this day.The Scottish professor was a life-long student. He was not a cleric who spoke or wrote lazily. He did not employ stale, borrowed (or stolen) or warmed-over material. He obviously had a thirst for knowledge.For more than half his life he was a teacher of Hellenistic Greek. He was perfectly at home with Aristotle, Thucydides, or Herodotus. In his discussions of biblical words he would track the terms from their classical origins, into the environment of the Septuagint era. He was familiar with words in Koine (common) Greek (the first-century Greek). He would explore the New Testament usage of terms, and even compliment the investigation by showing how the early “church fathers” employed various biblical texts. His linguistic studies are models of research methodology. Barclay’s little book, New Testament Words, is a must – especially for ministers.Barclay wrote many other popular books, mostly in the same accessible but scholarly style. In The Mind of Jesus (1960) he states that his aim was "to make the figure of Jesus more vividly alive, so that we may know him better and love him more."He once commented that the teacher who arouses only passion in his student, without pointing out what needs to be done, is a dangerous instructor. That sort of teaching lulls the student into a psychological comfort zone that lends itself to the development of a cancerous apathy that ultimately is deadly. The good teacher, he declared, provides his audience with something to know, to feel, and to do.Anyone here know more about the Greek than William Barclay? Most of us here couldn't order a hot dog in a Greek restaurant. lol
 

Christian Mystic

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QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 12 2009, 12:26 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70641
I can only conclude that hell is a place of eternal, fiery, conscious agony where sinners will be shut out from the presence of God forever. I would much prefer to believe that sinners will receive a temporary punishment in hell (perhaps based on the extent and magnitude of their sins) before being put out of their misery by being annihilated. However, I can't find any justification at all in Scripture for that view, and therefore I must discard it. I believe that God is infinitely and perfectly fair, and therefore whatever punishment sinners receive will be perfectly fair and we will have no cause to accuse God of being unfair in any way. It seens that you are of the view which is sometimes called "Ultimate Reconciliation" or "Universal Salvation" or simply "Universalism." The basic idea is that sinners will not spend eternity in hell, nor will they be annihilated. Instead, every person who ever lived will ultimately receive salvation, even if they have to spend a period of time suffering in hell. Those who hold this view argue that the Greek words which are translated as "eternal" and "for ever and ever" do not actually mean eternal, and therefore no sinners will spend eternity in hell. Many of the flaws in this and other Universal Salvation arguments I will have to address later..I am tired now. It would be nice if Universalism were true, but I believe that this doctrine is flawed. The greatest weight of evidence that I see in Scripture supports the view that sinners will be tormented in hell for ever and ever, because God looks at sin with a deeper revulsion and hatred than we can ever imagine. Let the horror of the ultimate fate of sinners spur us on in our evangelism!
So God's revulsion and hatred for sin is so great he'd torture a 16 year old Hindu girl who never heard the Gospel in the blazing fires of Hell forever? Wow. That almost boarders on blasphemy. Our God is not such a God. His hatred and revulsion of sin is so deep and so great that he is not about to let a single child of his be lost to it's devices. He'll purify this girl and bring her home!
 

Jordan

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Again, you are going at it way too far of what God has said. Why do you think there is a Millennium Reign?
 

savedbygrace57

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The term "aionios" is an adjective used to describe a thing. Context must determine how we are to interpret this word
Then context dictates people are going to suffer everlasting destruction.. 2 thess 1:Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;QUOTE
To understand the concept of what "eternal" meant I have to ask.... Are the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha still burning today in the Middle East
The inahbitants of those cities are..they are burning now..the cities are just synonyms for the people..like sometimes i may go somewhere, and somebody who knows me will say, atlanta is here..but they really mean me..
 

Christian Mystic

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QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 12 2009, 12:53 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70645
Again, you are going at it way too far of what God has said. Why do you think there is a Millennium Reign?
I've already addressed this question. First, one has to prove that there will be a millennial reign. Futurist, namely Dispensational, theology holds to a millennial reign. I've always read about it and even taught it when preaching. However, I've also come to know Amillennialism and Post Millennialism well enough to understand that the millennium itself is a debateable topic all of it's own. Personally, more recently I've found myself leaning more toward the Amillennial camp. I can't presuppose that there will be a millennium until it is proven that the Amillennial or Post Millennial perspectives are incorrect. Then we have to look at all the theories regarding the millennium, and there are many. Together, we would then have to weed each of those theories out and settle on your theory. So to answer your question, my response would be, first, prove there will be an earthly millennial reign.P.S.Instead of asking a question that would lead into a convoluted debate on theological perspectives regarding the Millennium, share with us what YOU believe regarding the Millennial Reign that YOU believe in. Are you saying that you believe that this 16 year old Hindu girl will be resurrected and live in the Millennium so that she can have ample opportunity to be saved? If so...please provide chapter and verse for this in Scripture.
 

setfree

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I struggle with these issues a little bit as well, but Scripture tells us very clearly that God's ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts (Isaiah 55:9). God is perfect and His decisions are perfect. I don't like the thought of people being tormented eternally in the Lake of Fire, but I believe that God is righteous, merciful, and just, and I am willing to let Him execute justice in any way He sees fit. I can understand and empathize with the question of "Is this really justice?," but this argument does not prove that sinners will be totally annihilated in hell. God's view of justice is not necessarily the same as our human view of justice! First off...I believe God is a loving God and desires all to come to salvation. Sending His son to die on the cross proves His love. But it also says in Rom. that man is without excuse....Romans 1 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein * * is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written *, The just shall live by faith18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, We have all sinned(Rom3:23)...Christ died for us(Rom. 5:8).....Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved(Rom10:13)...But if we reject the gift of salvation, then there is death, spiritual, physical, and eternal seperation! Where will they be seperated too?
 

setfree

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QUOTE (Christian Mystic @ Mar 11 2009, 11:21 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70637
The key point here is the word "They". We have to define that term. The term "they" is a plural pronoun indicative of the individuals specifically named in a prior sentence or clause. Who is the "they"? The prior clause clearly states it is the "devil, who deceived them", and the, "beast and the false prophet". These are said to burn in the lake of fire (not capitalized in the text because it is a descriptive term not an actual title (we attribute that title theologically, but that's because we're prone to doing such things). So all this verse states is that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet burn forever. This says nothing about mankind. This verse includes mankind that worships the beast...You can not worship God and the beast/or image..."A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:9-11) Here we see that the "smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever", this is describing a towering pillar of smoke that appears to rise out of sight, continuing on "for ever and ever". Not smoke ascending "forever and forever". Basic English here folks. The verse then specifies that those in the lake of fire have "no rest day or night"...but it doesn't specify how long they are there. All we can conclude is that they will not experience rest day or night for however long they are there, rather it be temporarily (as I propose) or forever (as you propose). Personally, I don't buy the argument that the smoke is merely symbolic Now, why does Revelation 14:9-11 (above) say that "the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever"? What is the description of smoke meant tell us? Well, one way to look at it is to imagine throwing a log onto a fire. It burns and produces smoke. When the log has completely stopped burning then there is no longer any smoke. If the log could feel pain then we might say that the smoke of its torment rises while it is burning. The only way for the smoke of its torment to rise forever is for the log to actually burn forever. Likewise, the only way for the smoke of a sinner's torment to rise forever is if the sinner burns forever. You're committing a big leap of logic here. Let's assume you're right and those named in these verses do indeed burn forever. The only ones specified are the devil, the beast, the false prophet, and those who received the mark of the beast. The vast majority of sinners aren't even mentioned here, for everyone lost thus far in human history haven't received the "mark of the beast". You're imposing the idea that this is therefore representative of all sinners. When the text is pretty clear as to who it is addressing. You forgot those that worship the beast or his image......Paul states that just as in Adam ALL men die (both spiritually and physically), even so in Christ shall ALL men be made alive. ALL means ALL unless you want to call Paul a liar. All men shall find their life (both physically and spiritually) in Christ Jesus. You are assuming they die spiritually! "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death." (Revelation 2:11) "Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6) "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." (Revelation 20:14) "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." (Revelation 21:8) For example, at physical death our bodies die and eventually decay, but they are not annihilated forever. The molecules that made up our bodies continue to exist, and in fact our bodies will be re-formed when we are resurrected. (see 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). It is true that physical death is the end of physical life (at least until Christians receive their resurrected, glorified bodies), and in a sense it is also true that the second death will be the end of spiritual life for sinners. This is because it is only in Jesus that we have life (see John 1:4 and 14:6, for example). Sinners will be shut out from the glorious presence of the Lord forever (2 Thessalonians 1:9), and in this sense they will have no life since they do not have Jesus. However, this does not mean that they will be annihilated. The "first" death (physical death) does not include annihilation, so we have no evidence to support the assumption that the "second" death refers to annihilation.
Philippians 2:10-1110That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​
Then it can be said that all that the prophets foretold concerning mankind's reconciliation with God had been accomplished....All will recognize Him as who He said He was...even the ones that denied Him will know that He is God...you contradict scriptures if you say all will come to him...because it says those that worship the beast will be thrown in the Lake of fire.
Acts 3:21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.​
The truth is that you're reading as far as the sinner's condemnation...but you're not continuing on to accepting the ultimate promise of God that the Gospel will be victorious unto all men in the very end. Only to those that except Him as Lord and Savior!I asked this before...do you have loved ones who died not knowing Jesus Christ? This is an important question because it brings the issue home, into reality, and away from being an abstract theological concept. It's easy to say, "Sinners shall burn forever." It's much harder to say, "My grandmother will burn forever." Why would God burn your grandmother forever??? Surely, if she died not knowing Christ, she must be purified and punished for wrongs done...but what could possibly warrant God burning her forever???Let the Holy Ghost speak to your heart and reveal something far greater than anything religion is claiming. You see....the truth is that the Gospel will be victorious for all men. In the end ALL will be reconciled to God and Satan will have won NOTHING. Christ defeated Satan at the Cross...He is defeated! He has lost! But we have a choice! We will be the loser if we chose to worship satan!
I answered you in green....I will address the last part later!
 

savedbygrace57

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First off...I believe God is a loving God and desires all to come to salvation
This is a false presumption..for God doesnt desire the seed of the serpent to come to salvation, for He created them for wrath and the day of Judgment..rom 9: 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: prov 16: 4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. The amplified gives a good reading on this verse:4The Lord has made everything [to accommodate itself and contribute] to its own end and His own purpose--even the wicked [are fitted for their role] for the day of calamity and evil.This solidifies rom 9 22So God never desires these to come to salvation in any shape or form, that would counter His immutable purpose for their being..
 

Christian Mystic

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I wish to draw the reader's attention to something. Isaiah 55:9 was mentioned in a post above. The idea is that God's thoughts and ways are higher than ours, so that while we may not understand why God would condemn so many who never had a chance to eternal burning in flames it's somehow just. However, in context Isaiah's point is just the opposite....
Isaiah 55:7-9 7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.​
God's ways are higher than ours and this thoughts higher than ours...not in that he seems cruel but isn't...but because he is abundantly merciful to anyone who turns to him. And if God never changes, and if the Gospel never changes, and neither hight nor depth, nor death, or things to come can separate us from the love of God in Christ....God can forgive a condemned soul that has adequately suffered for their sins and reconcile them unto himself. We seem to automatically see God as a destroyer or a judge...we are failing to see him as a Father.
 

setfree

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QUOTE (savedbygrace57 @ Mar 12 2009, 10:38 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70654
This is a false presumption..for God doesnt desire the seed of the serpent to come to salvation, for He created them for wrath and the day of Judgment..rom 9: 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: prov 16: 4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. The amplified gives a good reading on this verse:4The Lord has made everything [to accommodate itself and contribute] to its own end and His own purpose--even the wicked [are fitted for their role] for the day of calamity and evil.This solidifies rom 9 22So God never desires these to come to salvation in any shape or form, that would counter His immutable purpose for their being..
I said DESIRE ...He does not wish that any perish. I did not say fact! He foreknew what would happen, but the God I know desires all to come to him. Many are called but few chosen...He knew from the beginning what would happen when he created Adam and Eve.
 

Christian Mystic

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Let's look at Jonah's testimony....
Jonah 2:1-101Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, 2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. 3For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. 4Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple. 5The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. 6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. 7When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple. 8They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy. 9But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD. 10And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.​
Here Jonah describes his death. Yes, Jonah died. Jonah dies and finds himself in an out of body experience wherein the waters of the seas enclose him, his soul procedes down to the lowest depths of the seas where the foundations of the mountains and landmasses are. Jonah is decending into Hell...yet his soul cries unto the Lord and the Lord hears his prayer. Jonah wouldn't have seen all of this if he were living in the belly of the whale. The implication of the text is that Jonah died. Then we see that God revives him in the belly of the whale and has the whale spit him out on dry land. This is very interesting for two reasons. First, it is interesting because Jonah's repentance in soul is while he is disembodied...yet God hears him. Jonah repents after death. The second interesting detail is that Jonah's experience dovetails with the experiences experienced by those who have had near death experiences. Many who were irreligious have died, only to discover that they are decending into torments. Their soul cries out and "the light" hears them and they are revived and given a second chance at life. God hears prayer and repentance....even after death. It is written....
I Timothy 2:1-4 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.​
God clearly desires all men to be saved. God isn't the monster Calvinists depict him as being. Nor is he the wreckless, ambivalent Father that Arminians depict him as being. The truth is that God desires all men to be saved. The "elect" are those who accept the Gospel according to their free will. Yet God has already predestined that all things be reconciled in Christ....
Acts 3:21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.​
Romans 5:18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.​
Colossians 1:20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.​
1 Timothy 4:10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.​
Romans 11:32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.​
Sadly most here believe that God will never get what he desires. Religion holds a fatalistic Gospel of doom and failure, serving a depiction of God that claims that God is incapable of saving all his children. Even the Pharisees, who were listed as children of the devil, were given space to repent and escape God's judgment because he loves them too. We know of one Pharisee, Nicodemus, who did indeed come to faith in Christ. The notion that God created "vessels of destruction" FOR destruction and/or torment forever is an attack on God's character and nature. God has chosen that all who do not obey the Gospel must endure the fires of Hell. All of mankind will be reconciled...the choices are...be saved in Christ Jesus...or pass through the fire. But all will be reconciled.
 

savedbygrace57

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I said DESIRE ...He does not wish that any perish
You still are presenting falsehoods..God doesnt desire the salvation of the devil nor his seed..where does scripture teach that God desires the salvation of the devil ?
 

Christian Mystic

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QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 12 2009, 10:13 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70651
I answered you in green....I will address the last part later!Christ defeated Satan at the Cross...He is defeated! He has lost! But we have a choice! We will be the loser if we chose to worship satan!
Most haven't chosen to "worship Satan". Most simply have never heard about or experienced God's love. What about them?Jesus clearly stated...
John 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.​
All men will be reconciled to God. Yes, some will experience the chastisement of Hell...but eventually ALL mankind will worship and bow before our creator.
 

setfree

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QUOTE (Christian Mystic @ Mar 12 2009, 11:31 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70655
I wish to draw the reader's attention to something. Isaiah 55:9 was mentioned in a post above. The idea is that God's thoughts and ways are higher than ours, so that while we may not understand why God would condemn so many who never had a chance to eternal burning in flames it's somehow just. However, in context Isaiah's point is just the opposite....
Isaiah 55:7-9 7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.​
God's ways are higher than ours and this thoughts higher than ours...not in that he seems cruel but isn't...but because he is abundantly merciful to anyone who turns to him. And if God never changes, and if the Gospel never changes, and neither hight nor depth, nor death, or things to come can separate us from the love of God in Christ....God can forgive a condemned soul that has adequately suffered for their sins and reconcile them unto himself. We seem to automatically see God as a destroyer or a judge...we are failing to see him as a Father.
I agree that he will forgive IF a person forsakes his ways and returns to the Lord...But not all will turn to him.(Rev. 9:20-21)He is not a father to all because he claims some to be the children of satan, and that satan is their father....because they chose to believe his lies...One question...If everyone is eventually going to be saved...why did Jesus have to suffer and die on the cross?
 

Christian Mystic

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QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 12 2009, 12:58 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70663
I agree that he will forgive IF a person forsakes his ways and returns to the Lord...But not all will turn to him.(Rev. 9:20-21)He is not a father to all because he claims some to be the children of satan, and that satan is their father....because they chose to believe his lies...
A 16 year old Hindu girl who never heard the Gospel didn't CHOOSE to believe lies. She never knew the truth. This is what's wrong with your fundamentalism. You shut up heaven for most human beings with your exclusivist doctrines of men. You assume that just because they never heard the Gospel they must have CHOSEN Satan. How silly and illogical! LOL QUOTE
One question...If everyone is eventually going to be saved...why did Jesus have to suffer and die on the cross?
First, not all men will be "saved". Those who are "saved" will not experience God's chastening in Hell (or the lake of fire). Those who have been lost will be "reconciled". Second, you ask why Jesus had to die....the answer is....to make it possible for the elect to be saved and all of mankind to be reconciled. That's why. Jesus didn't die to only save a sliver of mankind. He died to reconcile ALL of mankind to the Father. And Jesus NEVER fails. He WILL reconcile ALL men by the blood of the cross. Some will be saved from God's chastisement in Hell through the Gospel...others will pass through Hell...but in the end all will fall in their faces before God realizing that it was the blood of Christ that made their salvation a reality. Satan will have won NOTHING.
 

tomwebster

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Christian Mystic,Just wanted you to know that I completely disagree with your Theological point of view and your interpretation of select Scriptures. I do not have time right now to go into the many points of disagreement, so I'm going to leave it here for now. I will try to get back to it.
 
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