The Truth About Hell

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Christian Mystic

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QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 13 2009, 12:06 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70723
Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Matthew 7:22 - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Matthew 7:23 - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Lamentations 3:31-32 31For the LORD will not cast off for ever: 32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.​
QUOTE (tomwebster @ Mar 13 2009, 12:06 AM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=70724][/url]
I answered that somewhere. Find it and read it.
I'm sorry Tom, I must have missed it. You could answer again here. Why the bitterness?
 

setfree

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I have heard others say that Christians are "spiritually alive," and non-Christians are "spiritually dead." However, these terms can be misleading unless we understand what they really mean. The Bible says that God is a spirit (John 4:24), and we are told that humans were created in God's image (Genesis 1:26-27). Even though we all have a physical body while we live on the physical earth, all humans have a spirit because we were made in God's image. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 says that we are made up of "spirit, soul and body." Your body is aware of the physical world around you, your spirit is aware of God within you, and everything else is your soul, which is aware of "self." Pastors and Bible teachers often describe the soul as being made up of your mind (what you think), your will (what you want), and your emotions (what you feel). Every human, whether Christian or non-Christian, is made up of a body, a soul, and a spirit. When we say that non-Christians have a spirit but they are "spiritually dead," this is not intended to mean that they are dragging around a dead "spirit corpse" everywhere they go. The Bible never says that a spirit can die, whether it's a demonic spirit, an angelic spirit, a human spirit, or God's Spirit. Some people might disagree with this statement based on their view of what will happen to sinners after they are cast into the Lake of Fire, ...... that sinners will eventually be totally annihilated (in which case their spirits would presumably be dead). Will their spirits die nor become "annihilated?" Again, the Bible never says that a spirit can die. Being spiritually dead really means being separated from the life that is in Christ. Mat 10:28 just mentions soul and body...not spirit!
 

Christian Mystic

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QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 13 2009, 12:14 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70726
Mat 10:28 just mentions soul and body...not spirit!
Also note that it just states that God is ABLE to destroy both soul and body in hell...it never says that he will.
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setfree

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QUOTE (Christian Mystic @ Mar 12 2009, 11:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70727
Also note that it just states that God is ABLE to destroy both soul and body in hell...it never says that he will.
wink.gif

I have already shared many scriptures showing that they will be cast in the lake of fire..those that follow satan. Being spiritually dead really means being separated from the life that is in Christ. For example, notice how Jesus defined eternal life: John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." In the above passage, Jesus defined eternal life in terms of a relationship with God. Notice that "eternal life" does not simply mean "existing eternally," because even the unrighteous people throughout history will exist eternally (eternal anguish in the Lake of Fire). All humans will exist eternally because our spirits can never die or be snuffed out of existence. However, only the righteous will have "life" eternally, because we will be in a relationship with God. Notice that once again Jesus said that He is the "life," and once again He put this in the context of a relationship with God: John 14:6: "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:7: "If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."" The apostle John also tells us over and over that eternal life involves remaining in the Son and in the Father: 1 John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life." 1 John 1:2: "The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us." 1 John 2:24: "See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father." 1 John 2:25: "And this is what he promised us--even eternal life." 1 John 5:11: "And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." 1 John 5:12: "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 John 5:20: "We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." All humans have a spirit, and all humans will exist eternally (because our spirits cannot die). The phrase, "eternal life," does not simply mean "existing eternally," it means remaining in a relationship with God eternally. All unrighteous people throughout history will exist eternally, but they will be in anguish because they will be denied that fellowship with God. What it boils down to is that a "spiritually dead" person does not have the life of Christ in him, and therefore he will not go to heaven if he dies in that state. Similarly, if a person will go to heaven when he dies then by definition he is "spiritually alive" because he has a relationship and fellowship with God. There is no such thing in the Bible as a person going to hell who is not "spiritually dead," and there is no such thing in the Bible as a person going to heaven who is not "spiritually alive." Those things go together. Therefore, if infants will go to heaven then by definition they are "spiritually alive."
 

Christian Mystic

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QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 13 2009, 12:29 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70728
I have already shared many scriptures showing that they will be cast in the lake of fire..those that follow satan. Being spiritually dead really means being separated from the life that is in Christ. For example, notice how Jesus defined eternal life: John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." In the above passage, Jesus defined eternal life in terms of a relationship with God. Notice that "eternal life" does not simply mean "existing eternally," because even the unrighteous people throughout history will exist eternally (eternal anguish in the Lake of Fire). All humans will exist eternally because our spirits can never die or be snuffed out of existence. However, only the righteous will have "life" eternally, because we will be in a relationship with God. Notice that once again Jesus said that He is the "life," and once again He put this in the context of a relationship with God: John 14:6: "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:7: "If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."" The apostle John also tells us over and over that eternal life involves remaining in the Son and in the Father: 1 John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life." 1 John 1:2: "The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us." 1 John 2:24: "See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father." 1 John 2:25: "And this is what he promised us--even eternal life." 1 John 5:11: "And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." 1 John 5:12: "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 John 5:20: "We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." All humans have a spirit, and all humans will exist eternally (because our spirits cannot die). The phrase, "eternal life," does not simply mean "existing eternally," it means remaining in a relationship with God eternally. All unrighteous people throughout history will exist eternally, but they will be in anguish because they will be denied that fellowship with God. What it boils down to is that a "spiritually dead" person does not have the life of Christ in him, and therefore he will not go to heaven if he dies in that state. Similarly, if a person will go to heaven when he dies then by definition he is "spiritually alive" because he has a relationship and fellowship with God. There is no such thing in the Bible as a person going to hell who is not "spiritually dead," and there is no such thing in the Bible as a person going to heaven who is not "spiritually alive." Those things go together. Therefore, if infants will go to heaven then by definition they are "spiritually alive."
Setfree....I was agreeing with you. I was only offering a different angle. Wow...you guys are a contentious lot. lol God bless yer hearts. As my grandpa would say, "Y'all need the love o' God."
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setfree

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QUOTE (Christian Mystic @ Mar 12 2009, 11:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70729
Setfree....I was agreeing with you. I was only offering a different angle. Wow...you guys are a contentious lot. lol God bless yer hearts. As my grandpa would say, "Y'all need the love o' God."
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I did not see where we agree on this.... "Also note that it just states that God is ABLE to destroy both soul and body in hell...it never says that he will." I just made a comment that he WILL cast them in the Lake of fire.. So how is that agreeing?I will have to admit your post have got me to thinking...I have never heard of universalism. The hindu girl illustration made me start digging... Even if our ways are not His ways. I could not see in that instance God sending her to Hell. It still says in Rom. 1 that we are without excuse....I also do not see where our spirit dies, but I am still looking into it.Before people place their faith in Jesus for salvation, they are "lost" or "unrighteous" or "sinners," and they will end up in the Lake of Fire (i.e. hell) if they die in that state. They are "spiritually dead." But when they trust in Christ for salvation, notice what happens to them. They are "born of God" (John 1:12-13), they are "born again" (John 3:3), the Spirit "gives birth to spirit" within them (John 3:6), they are "born of the Spirit" (John 3:8), they become "a new creation" (2 Corinthians 5:17), they become "a new creation" (Galatians 6:14-15), they "put on the new self" (Colossians 3:9-10, Ephesians 4:22-24), they are given "new birth" (1 Peter 1:3), they are "born again" (1 Peter 1:23), they are "born of God" (1 John 5:1), and so on. In other words, when we receive salvation through faith in Christ then we receive the new birth. We are born again. We have new life. We are "spiritually alive" and we will go to heaven when we die. That gave me a better idea of what it means to be spiritually alive or spiritually dead, notice that the apostle Paul said that he "died" as a result of becoming aware of sin, and notice that he was alive until that happened (verse 9): Romans 7:1: "Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives [zao in the Greek]?" Romans 7:2: "For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive [zao in the Greek], but if her husband dies [apothnesko in the Greek], she is released from the law of marriage." Romans 7:3: "So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive [zao in the Greek], she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies [apothnesko in the Greek], she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man." ... Romans 7:9: "Once I was alive [zao in the Greek] apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died [apothnesko in the Greek]." In verse 9 (above), notice that Paul didn't say, "Once I was happy apart from law," and he didn't say, "Once I was at peace in my conscience apart from law," and so on. Paul said, "Once I was alive apart from law," and then he said that he "died" when he learned of the commandments. In verses 1 to 3 (above), Paul talked about individual people being alive or dead, and then in verse 9 (above) he talked about being alive and being dead using the same Greek words as in verses 1 to 3. In verse 9 (above) he was talking about his own personal death. When Paul said that he died, he obviously didn't die physically because he wouldn't have been able to write the above passage. So if he died, but he didn't die physically, then we tend to say that he died "spiritually," meaning that he would not have gone to heaven and would not have had eternal life with Christ if he had physically died in that state. Here's what a prominent Bible commentary says about this verse: "Evidently the apostle was speaking of his personal experience as a child and perhaps even a youth prior to his awareness and understanding of the full impact of God's commandments. ... The result was that the principle of sin within made its presence and power known (it sprang to life) in his violations of the commandment. As a result Paul died spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.466-467, emphasis added) According to Paul's example, we were all "alive" in some sense as children until sin "sprang to life" within us through an awareness or understanding of sin. At that point we "died." This further supports the view that infants and young children are spiritually alive and will go to heaven if they die.
 

Christian Mystic

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QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 13 2009, 10:09 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70744
I did not see where we agree on this.... "Also note that it just states that God is ABLE to destroy both soul and body in hell...it never says that he will." I just made a comment that he WILL cast them in the Lake of fire.. So how is that agreeing?
We agree in that we both believe in an immortal soul or spirit in man that isn’t destroyed. Those who believe that the soul is destroyed and ceases to exist base a lot on the fact that Christ said that God was able to destroy both soul and body in hell…my point was that Jesus only stated that God was ABLE to do such a thing….not that he would. So we agree at least that for bro. QUOTE
I will have to admit your post have got me to thinking...I have never heard of universalism. The hindu girl illustration made me start digging... Even if our ways are not His ways. I could not see in that instance God sending her to Hell. It still says in Rom. 1 that we are without excuse....I also do not see where our spirit dies, but I am still looking into it.Before people place their faith in Jesus for salvation, they are "lost" or "unrighteous" or "sinners," and they will end up in the Lake of Fire (i.e. hell) if they die in that state. They are "spiritually dead." But when they trust in Christ for salvation, notice what happens to them. They are "born of God" (John 1:12-13), they are "born again" (John 3:3), the Spirit "gives birth to spirit" within them (John 3:6), they are "born of the Spirit" (John 3:8), they become "a new creation" (2 Corinthians 5:17), they become "a new creation" (Galatians 6:14-15), they "put on the new self" (Colossians 3:9-10, Ephesians 4:22-24), they are given "new birth" (1 Peter 1:3), they are "born again" (1 Peter 1:23), they are "born of God" (1 John 5:1), and so on. In other words, when we receive salvation through faith in Christ then we receive the new birth. We are born again. We have new life. We are "spiritually alive" and we will go to heaven when we die. That gave me a better idea of what it means to be spiritually alive or spiritually dead, notice that the apostle Paul said that he "died" as a result of becoming aware of sin, and notice that he was alive until that happened (verse 9): Romans 7:1: "Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives [zao in the Greek]?" Romans 7:2: "For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive [zao in the Greek], but if her husband dies [apothnesko in the Greek], she is released from the law of marriage." Romans 7:3: "So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive [zao in the Greek], she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies [apothnesko in the Greek], she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man." ... Romans 7:9: "Once I was alive [zao in the Greek] apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died [apothnesko in the Greek]." In verse 9 (above), notice that Paul didn't say, "Once I was happy apart from law," and he didn't say, "Once I was at peace in my conscience apart from law," and so on. Paul said, "Once I was alive apart from law," and then he said that he "died" when he learned of the commandments. In verses 1 to 3 (above), Paul talked about individual people being alive or dead, and then in verse 9 (above) he talked about being alive and being dead using the same Greek words as in verses 1 to 3. In verse 9 (above) he was talking about his own personal death. When Paul said that he died, he obviously didn't die physically because he wouldn't have been able to write the above passage. So if he died, but he didn't die physically, then we tend to say that he died "spiritually," meaning that he would not have gone to heaven and would not have had eternal life with Christ if he had physically died in that state. Here's what a prominent Bible commentary says about this verse: "Evidently the apostle was speaking of his personal experience as a child and perhaps even a youth prior to his awareness and understanding of the full impact of God's commandments. ... The result was that the principle of sin within made its presence and power known (it sprang to life) in his violations of the commandment. As a result Paul died spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.466-467, emphasis added) According to Paul's example, we were all "alive" in some sense as children until sin "sprang to life" within us through an awareness or understanding of sin. At that point we "died." This further supports the view that infants and young children are spiritually alive and will go to heaven if they die.
Here’s an interesting question…can a soul repent of sin and find God after death? We who embrace universalism believe that this is possible. God, the Gospel, the blood, it’s all just as powerful and effectual after death as it is in life. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever more. We believe that Hell has a purpose beyond being torment, retribution, or entertainment for a vindictive and angry God. We see Hell as a place were individuals pay for their sins and once they’ve paid the last mite their repentance is heard. Of course…if a soul refuses to repent they will remain there. But we Universalists believe that God’s Word explains that eventually all will be reconciled.
 

setfree

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In Rev. 9: 20-21 said that those that were not killed by the six trumpet repented not....The Bible says that we were all dead in our sins before we received salvation: Ephesians 2:1-2: "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, Ephesians 2:2: "in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." Colossians 2:13: "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ." So we were all dead in our sins before we accepted Christ as our Savior. But consider that an inanimate object such as a rock can never be dead because it was never alive in the first place. So if we were spiritually dead in our sins, the implication is that we must have been spiritually alive before we died. This supports the idea that babies and young children will go to heaven if they die before they reach an "age of accountability," because they are spiritually alive before sin "springs to life" within them.
 

Christian Mystic

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QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 13 2009, 10:38 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70747
In Rev. 9: 20-21 said that those that were not killed by the six trumpet repented not....The Bible says that we were all dead in our sins before we received salvation: Ephesians 2:1-2: "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, Ephesians 2:2: "in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." Colossians 2:13: "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ." So we were all dead in our sins before we accepted Christ as our Savior. But consider that an inanimate object such as a rock can never be dead because it was never alive in the first place. So if we were spiritually dead in our sins, the implication is that we must have been spiritually alive before we died. This supports the idea that babies and young children will go to heaven if they die before they reach an "age of accountability," because they are spiritually alive before sin "springs to life" within them.
I believe that. However, I don’t think that when one dies their chance at repentance or for salvation is over. Paul wrote…
Romans 8:38-3938For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​
Paul is persuaded that not even death can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. When we die… it’s not over. Yes, we will pay for our sins, but God’s grace can extend even to the lowest depths of Hell for the soul who has paid for their sins and desires to be saved. Of course, those who hate God will remain…but the blessed hope of Scripture as we Universalists understand it is that every soul will eventually be reconciled, with every knee bowing, and every tongue confessing that Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Cases supporting this idea can be found in I Peter …
1Peter 3:18-2018For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.I Peter 4:66For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.​
Every soul both dead and alive will be presented with the Gospel that they might be saved. And the blessed hope is that all will be saved and God’s plan will be victorious over sin and Satan.
 

setfree

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What matters is what God has revealed in His word. They're scriptures in the Bible that plainly state that not all are saved. "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14). "For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14). "And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27). "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27). These verses are plain and clear. Not all are saved; in fact, few are. Whether or not we think this makes God a failure, or that it makes us sad, or upsets us, isn't really that important. If the Bible says it, that settles it. What is left is to make adjustments in our understanding and feelings in order to bring more in line with what God has stated.QUOTE (Christian Mystic @ Mar 13 2009, 10:10 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70748
Cases supporting this idea can be found in I Peter …
1Peter 3:18-2018For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.I Peter 4:66For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.​
Every soul both dead and alive will be presented with the Gospel that they might be saved. And the blessed hope is that all will be saved and God’s plan will be victorious over sin and Satan.
What Did Jesus Do While He Was in Hades?Many people believe that 1 Peter 3:18-20 tells us that Jesus preached to some departed spirits while He was in Hades: (1 Peter 3:18-20) People sometimes interpret this passage to mean that when Jesus went down to Hades, He preached to some spirits there. However, this interpretation has a number of problems: First let's ask ourselves which spirits did Jesus preach to? Was it the spirits of the unrighteous people in Hades? Was it the spirits of the righteous people in the Paradise section of Hades? Was it the fallen angels in Tartarus? To answer these questions, notice that Jesus preached specifically to those who were disobedient in the time of Noah. But why did He only preach to them, and how did He preach only to those people from Noah's time without preaching to anyone else in Hades? Now let's ask ourselves what Jesus preached to the people from Noah's time? Did He preach the Gospel to them? Was Jesus offering them salvation in Hades? If so, then why did He only offer salvation to the people who were disobedient in Noah's time, and why didn't He also offer salvation to the other unrighteous people in Hades? Recall that no-one was able to cross over from the "agony" compartment of Hades to the Paradise compartment of Hades (Luke 16:22-26), which seems to mean that it would have been impossible for someone from Noah's time to receive salvation and cross over from the "agony" section of Hades to the Paradise section. If Jesus was not preaching the Gospel in Hades, then did Jesus "preach" in the sense of proclaiming His victory? If so, then why did He only proclaim His victory to the spirits from Noah's time? It says that Jesus was made alive by the Spirit, through whom He preached. Why does this passage specifically say that Jesus preached a message "through the Spirit"? If Jesus was right there in Hades then why didn't He preach this message Himself? If we interpret 1 Peter 3:18-20 (above) as meaning that Jesus "preached" something while He was in Hades, this interpretation brings up a number of problems and questions. However, there is another way to interpret 1 Peter 3:18-20 (above) which does not bring up those problems and questions. First, let me offer an illustration. My Granddad was a Presbyterian minister in North Carolina for many years, and there was a graveyard on the grounds of his church. Undoubtedly some people in his congregation were buried there over the years. So if I visit the church where my Granddad used to preach, I could point to the graveyard and say that my Granddad preached to many of the dead people who are buried there. Obviously I don't mean that those people were dead when my Granddad preached to them, but instead I mean that he preached to them while they were alive and that now they are in these graves. Keep that illustration in mind, and look at 1 Peter 3:18-20 again in a literal translation of the Bible.
 

Christina

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QUOTE (watchman @ Mar 12 2009, 08:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70717
QUOTE (Christina @ Mar 12 2009, 12:31 PM) *You can all believe as you chose but God has a plan so if you think you can change the nature of God and figure out his whole plan by one or two words in a verse being misunderstood be my guest ... There is no burning in hell forever just a lack of man to understand God his nature and his plan .. He says Sodom and gomorrah would burn forever is it still burning ?????????????QUOTE (watchman @ Mar 12 2009, 09:12 PM) *Where is that scripture?Yeah how dare I ask someone to back up their claims with scripture. What kind of person would do that? I have studied the subject and no where does God say Sodom or Gomorrah would burn forever. If He did then quote the scripture, for all you know that scripture might convince me of your point. however I am sure you will not find a scripture that says God said Sodom and Gomorrah would burn forever.Prove me wrong.
LOL ..........like I said can you read ? I gave you the verse. tell me what do you think eternal means ??7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
 

Christian Mystic

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QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 13 2009, 12:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70751
What matters is what God has revealed in His word. They're scriptures in the Bible that plainly state that not all are saved. "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14). "For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14). "And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27). "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27). These verses are plain and clear. Not all are saved; in fact, few are. Whether or not we think this makes God a failure, or that it makes us sad, or upsets us, isn't really that important. If the Bible says it, that settles it. What is left is to make adjustments in our understanding and feelings in order to bring more in line with what God has stated.
I agree with you that few will be saved by the Gospel. Most will enter Hell. Once that happens the second phase (for lack of a better term) begins in God’s plan. Now those who were lost must be purified and reconciled. Very few are saved form this experience. QUOTE
What Did Jesus Do While He Was in Hades?Many people believe that 1 Peter 3:18-20 tells us that Jesus preached to some departed spirits while He was in Hades: (1 Peter 3:18-20) People sometimes interpret this passage to mean that when Jesus went down to Hades, He preached to some spirits there. However, this interpretation has a number of problems:
That was a nice explanation of what you believe…but you are performing “guided interpretation” instead of letting the text speak for itself. One can generate many doubtful questions to suggest any number of doctrines, but what the Bible says is what the Bible says. The Gospel wasn’t only preached to those who perished in the flood, it was preached to “the dead”, those who perished in the time of Noah being a notable example,
I Peter 4:66For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.​
And it was preached so that these dead might be judged in like fashion as men who are alive in the flesh, who live for God according to the spirit. This of course requires their redemption from Hell. We can look at only those passages that speak of the majority going to Hell and walk away believing that the vast majority are lost forever burning in God’s own little torture chamber. But if we consider the whole of Scripture and it’s implications we walk away understanding the truth about Hell. For example…these Scriptures are often forgotten, disregarded, or explained away to justify the medieval interpretation of Hell….
I Corinthians 15:22.For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.Romans 5:18. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Luke 2:10. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. John 12:32. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Isaiah 45: 23. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (I Corinthians 12:3. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.)Philippians 2: 10-11. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. I Timothy 2: 1-6. I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.Genesis 28: 14. And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. Psalm 22:27. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ephesians 1: 9-11. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things[/] in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Colossians 1: 16 and 20. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Revelation 21:5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Acts 3: 20 and 21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. II Corinthians 5: 17-19. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation John 1:29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. John 3:16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. I John 2:2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. John 12:47. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world John 4:42. Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. I John 4:14. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Hebrews 7:25. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Romans 5: 15-21. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. I Corinthians 15: 22 and 26.For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Romans 11:26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Ephesians 2:7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Hebrews 8: 11-12. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Titus 2:11. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, I Corinthians 4:5. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. Revelation 15:4.Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. II Corinthians 5: 15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Romans 11:32 and 36. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen Ephesians 4:10.He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Revelation 21: 4-5. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. I Corinthians 3:15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Mark 9:49. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Hebrews 1:2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; I Timothy 4: 9-10. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (meaning not only)Isaiah 46: 10. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Deuteronomy 32: 39. See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. Psalms 90: 3. Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. Lamentations 3: 31-32. For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. Isaiah 2: 2. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Genesis 18: 18. Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? Psalms 138: 4. All the kings of the earth shall praise thee, O LORD, when they hear the words of thy mouth. Psalms 86: 9. All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name. Psalms 22: 27. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee Psalms 65: 2O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come. Psalms 66: 3-4. Say unto God, How terrible art thou in thy works! through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves unto thee. All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah. Psalms 145: 9-16.The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee. They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power; To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom. Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations. The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down. The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season. Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing. Isaiah 25: 6-9. And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
The implications of these texts are profound. They must be matched with those verses explaining that few be saved. The logical outcome is that few are saved from God’s punishment…but all will be reconciled to God after their punishment is complete and all things submit to his lordship. The whole of Scripture must be considered.
 

Jordan

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Christian Mystic, I don't care what you believe, but the Truth is, you are changing God's Words into a lie. (Romans 1:25) You are clearly twisting God's Words especially Lord Jesus Christ. Hey, if you feel that it's right to mislead others with your interpretation of men... go feel what you need to be done. Go take it up with your Father then.
 

Christian Mystic

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QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 13 2009, 01:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70762
Christian Mystic, I don't care what you believe, but the Truth is, you are changing God's Words into a lie. (Romans 1:25) You are clearly twisting God's Words especially Lord Jesus Christ. Hey, if you feel that it's right to mislead others with your interpretation of men... go feel what you need to be done. Go take it up with your Father then.
Please address the whole of Scripture, as I posted it to you. Why select ONLY those passages that APPEAR to teach that God will forever burn the lost? Think about this one also…Let’s say that a 16 year old American girl dies in a car accident while partying with friends. She had been invited to church by a friend but she wasn’t raised in church and it didn’t seem to her to be very interesting. Being an American she’s heard of Jesus, but all the religion stuff is strange to her. She figured that she wanted to have a little “fun” instead of going to church that night. She’s then killed in a tragic car accident. Most “traditional” Christians with a “traditional” view of Hell will say this poor misguided girl’s soul will be drug before God by the angels where she is condemned to be burned forever. Screaming, begging, pleading, in absolute horror her cries are not heard by a God whose face is as cold as stone, “I never knew you.” is his only reply to her begging and screaming pleas for mercy. As she screams for mercy and calls out for her parents in terror, she is cast into the fire where she will burn and roast forever. She will burn for billions upon billions upon billions upon billions of millennia…a period of time so long her human existence equals less than what would be comparable to a nano-second of her existence. It’s quite possible that after such an unimaginable period of time her soul will not even recollect the sins that landed her there…all she will have known or ever will know is terror and burnings. Perhaps driven insane by the horror and pain her soul exists in a blank and constant silent scream, her thoughts perhaps only represented by shades of terror as continual waves of pain and agony sweep over her.Now tell me…what did this 16 year old girl do to possibly warrant such a fate? And what kind of heavenly Father would do this to her? Or perhaps some of you believe this… her soul is carried away pleading and screaming for mercy as she is cast by the angels into the lake of fire where she is burned up, experiencing unprecedented pain and terror during the last few seconds of her existence. Again, what did this 16 year old girl do to possibly warrant such a fate? And what kind of heavenly Father would do this to her? The doctrine of a never ending hell of burnings and torments is a medieval error not unlike indulgences and popery…it’s a doctrine designed to instill absolute horror in the masses to subjugate them to the power of the church. It paints God as a brutal father who will torture or destroy most of his own children…in spite of their cries for mercy or the fact that he could punish them remedially, purifying them. And it is this medieval doctrine of spiritual terrorism that causes most today to reject the God of the Bible. I submit to you that we have misinterpreted what the Bible says about Hell…and that we must interpret it in light of the whole counsel of Scripture, Scriptures that teach that one day, perhaps in the dateless future, all the nations and all peoples that God ever made will worship and glorify his name before his throne, having been purified.
 

Jordan

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QUOTE (Christian Mystic @ Mar 13 2009, 01:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70767
QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 13 2009, 12:59 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70762
Christian Mystic, I don't care what you believe, but the Truth is, you are changing God's Words into a lie. (Romans 1:25) You are clearly twisting God's Words especially Lord Jesus Christ. Hey, if you feel that it's right to mislead others with your interpretation of men... go feel what you need to be done. Go take it up with your Father then.
Please address the whole of Scripture, as I posted it to you. Why select ONLY those passages that APPEAR to teach that God will forever burn the lost? Think about this one also…Let’s say that a 16 year old American girl dies in a car accident while partying with friends. She had been invited to church by a friend but she wasn’t raised in church and it didn’t seem to her to be very interesting. Being an American she’s heard of Jesus, but all the religion stuff is strange to her. She figured that she wanted to have a little “fun” instead of going to church that night. She’s then killed in a tragic car accident. Most “traditional” Christians with a “traditional” view of Hell will say this poor misguided girl’s soul will be drug before God by the angels where she is condemned to be burned forever. Screaming, begging, pleading, in absolute horror her cries are not heard by a God whose face is as cold as stone, “I never knew you.” is his only reply to her begging and screaming pleas for mercy. As she screams for mercy and calls out for her parents in terror, she is cast into the fire where she will burn and roast forever. She will burn for billions upon billions upon billions upon billions of millennia…a period of time so long her human existence equals less than what would be comparable to a nano-second of her existence. It’s quite possible that after such an unimaginable period of time her soul will not even recollect the sins that landed her there…all she will have known or ever will know is terror and burnings. Perhaps driven insane by the horror and pain her soul exists in a blank and constant silent scream, her thoughts perhaps only represented by shades of terror as continual waves of pain and agony sweep over her.Now tell me…what did this 16 year old girl do to possibly warrant such a fate? And what kind of heavenly Father would do this to her? Or perhaps some of you believe this… her soul is carried away pleading and screaming for mercy as she is cast by the angels into the lake of fire where she is burned up, experiencing unprecedented pain and terror during the last few seconds of her existence. Again, what did this 16 year old girl do to possibly warrant such a fate? And what kind of heavenly Father would do this to her? The doctrine of a never ending hell of burnings and torments is a medieval error not unlike indulgences and popery…it’s a doctrine designed to instill absolute horror in the masses to subjugate them to the power of the church. It paints God as a brutal father who will torture or destroy most of his own children…in spite of their cries for mercy or the fact that he could punish them remedially, purifying them. And it is this medieval doctrine of spiritual terrorism that causes most today to reject the God of the Bible. I submit to you that we have misinterpreted what the Bible says about Hell…and that we must interpret it in light of the whole counsel of Scripture, Scriptures that teach that one day, perhaps in the dateless future, all the nations and all peoples that God ever made will worship and glorify his name before his throne, having been purified.We already deal with that same old situation you said in earlier posts.First of all, where in scriptures do we know other people's heart and/or mind? Where in scriptures are we to judge a man? Lastly who appointed you as the Judge?
 

Christian Mystic

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QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 13 2009, 02:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70770
We already deal with that same old situation you said in earlier posts.First of all, where in scriptures do we know other people's heart and/or mind? Where in scriptures are we to judge a man? Lastly who appointed you as the Judge?
I think you’re dodging the issue. This example is a bit different from the first, in the first example there was a Hindu who never heard the Gospel…in this example it’s an American who had but didn’t heed or seek it out. Also, in our example we didn’t pick an actual person and attempt to judge their heart….we took a hypothetical person and presented a window into her heart…she was an unbeliever and died an unbeliever in our example. Now please answer the question….Where does she stand according to your interpretation of Scripture? And for the record…the only answer provided for the first question was an individuals theory about her somehow being resurrected and given a chance to hear the Gospel in the Millennium…yet no Scripture was presented that isn’t questionable in it’s interpretation…not to mention that the notion isn’t found in any major school of theology….so it’s only a private or personal opinion. You throw out a lot of Scripture illustrating that “all” are eventually reconciled to justify the idea that God burns or destroys people forever.
 

tomwebster

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QUOTE (Christian Mystic @ Mar 13 2009, 02:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70776
...Where does she stand according to your interpretation of Scripture? ...
I don't really think it matters where she stands according to your view, or Jordan's view or my view or anyone's view. It's God's view that counts. I am willing to let Him decide. I do believe He is the Judge.This topic is getting monotonous. I will give it a little more time then I will close it.
 

Jordan

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QUOTE (Christian Mystic @ Mar 13 2009, 02:12 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70776
QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 13 2009, 01:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70770
We already deal with that same old situation you said in earlier posts.First of all, where in scriptures do we know other people's heart and/or mind? Where in scriptures are we to judge a man? Lastly who appointed you as the Judge?
I think you’re dodging the issue. This example is a bit different from the first, in the first example there was a Hindu who never heard the Gospel…in this example it’s an American who had but didn’t heed or seek it out. Also, in our example we didn’t pick an actual person and attempt to judge their heart….we took a hypothetical person and presented a window into her heart…she was an unbeliever and died an unbeliever in our example. Now please answer the question….Where does she stand according to your interpretation of Scripture? And for the record…the only answer provided for the first question was an individuals theory about her somehow being resurrected and given a chance to hear the Gospel in the Millennium…yet no Scripture was presented that isn’t questionable in it’s interpretation…not to mention that the notion isn’t found in any major school of theology….so it’s only a private or personal opinion. You throw out a lot of Scripture illustrating that “all” are eventually reconciled to justify the idea that God burns or destroys people forever.Hey, I'm not going to answer your question in that tone of voice... And lastly I don't care about my opinion. I am not God, so therefore I am not the Judge, nor do I can read people's mind and heart. So I'm going to let Him deal do that part. If you don't believe that God is going to kill Satan, which is one of His sons, that's fine by me... All you are doing is twisting scriptures to suit your desire. It changes nothing and doesn't change one bit what God clearly said He will do.
 

Christian Mystic

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QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 13 2009, 03:31 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70781
I think you’re dodging the issue. This example is a bit different from the first, in the first example there was a Hindu who never heard the Gospel…in this example it’s an American who had but didn’t heed or seek it out. Also, in our example we didn’t pick an actual person and attempt to judge their heart….we took a hypothetical person and presented a window into her heart…she was an unbeliever and died an unbeliever in our example. Now please answer the question….Where does she stand according to your interpretation of Scripture? And for the record…the only answer provided for the first question was an individuals theory about her somehow being resurrected and given a chance to hear the Gospel in the Millennium…yet no Scripture was presented that isn’t questionable in it’s interpretation…not to mention that the notion isn’t found in any major school of theology….so it’s only a private or personal opinion. You throw out a lot of Scripture illustrating that “all” are eventually reconciled to justify the idea that God burns or destroys people forever.Hey, I'm not going to answer your question in that tone of voice... And lastly I don't care about my opinion. I am not God, so therefore I am not the Judge, nor do I can read people's mind and heart. So I'm going to let Him deal do that part. If you don't believe that God is going to kill Satan, which is one of His sons, that's fine by me... All you are doing is twisting scriptures to suit your desire. It changes nothing and doesn't change one bit what God clearly said He will do.
Kill Satan....Satan's a spirit, a fallen angel. And besides, we've already covered that the prophet was addressing human kings...the king of Babylon and the king of Tyrus. It's right there in the Scriptures.As for the young girl in our example...it appears that both of you give room for God to reconcile her. Now you're on the verge of a revelation.
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