Who is John talking about.........

Giuliano · Jan 11, 2020

DNB said:
How in the world did the topic just change from you saying that Jesus could've followed the Beast, to me saying that he couldn't because he 'attained' perfection?

I don't recall saying Jesus could have "followed the Beast." Could you be confusing what I wrote with what someone else? I wrote this:

We read Jesus was tempted in all things. What would have happened after he was baptized and came up out of the water if he had sold out to Satan?

You answered:

Salvation would've been lost, ..was that your point?

I wrote:

I wasn't asking people to look at things based largely on how they affect them. I'm not sure that salvation would have been lost. I think God has back-up plans; but that wasn't what I was driving at. I was asking if Jesus could have become "a beast that came out of the water" by following Satan and betraying the Father.

I suggest that Revelation is a book relevant to everyone who reads it. It is about more than future events. Often it can be about the here and now. Blessed is the person who reads it and keeps the sayings -- true nearly two thousand years ago -- and true today. I think we see "minor" versions of the beast of the water in every generation. Thank goodness, most of them are not gifted spiritually.

I am talking about people who have this or that spiritual ability and then sell out to Satan. Some are like Jesus -- they're baptized and the Holy Spirit descends -- and when the time comes for them to face temptation, they succumb because they crave power or money more than the kingdom of God. Some have the ability to perform miracles; and they mislead others through signs and wonders. Yes, we can be grateful they aren't that gifted spiritually. Satan can use them, but the truth is they aren't that powerful. Ultimately a truly powerful person will rise up out of the water with the ability to do great signs and wonders. For now, never mind him -- look at the minor ones already around.

The passage can also be read as a warning to the individual Christian not to sell his gifts that way to the Devil.

Then you wrote:

Well, everything in life can be construed as an analogy, metaphor or a figure or typology. That's too easy, and goes without saying. And this is the precarious aspect of biblical hermeneutics & exegesis, if one establishes as a hermeneutic principle that a certain amount, or all, of scripture, allows a non-literal interpretation, then without further guidelines and disciplined exegesis, it turns into a free-for-all.

So, yes, you're right, if one wants to, the passages in Revelation can have multiple allusions, as in the Beast coming out of the water can mean for us not to sell-out to the Devil. But that type of frivolous interpretation is for the inexperienced. The mature strive to find the precise meaning that God intended, and all the implications, ...but to a profound degree. As in, not superficially, like 'Jesus sat on the green grass and taught the people', is supposed to mean that the people were green-behind-the-ears. As true as it may have been, it's too easy, and too frivolous, and leads to unbridled and perverse interpretations.

So, no, Jesus could never have followed the beast, ever. Jesus attained perfection in all wisdom and actions, in that, a wise man never succumbs to depravity, hedonism and wickedness (don't even try to ask me why). Perfection is also a sign, and primarily above all things, that Jesus loved God with all his heart mind and soul. Thus, there is no reason to believe that Jesus was that stupid, shallow, reprobate and reckless, to commit such a wayward and sinful act, ever, ever.

Jesus acquired perfection by being tempted and resisting, for with many tears and supplications he prayed to God for strength and wisdom. My point was, once perfect, on what grounds would he succumb to sin, if he didn't during his many trials and tribulations? Perfection means not seduced by sin. Sin is not attractive to a wise person, that's my point.

You appear to changing your position. If not, at what point did he achieve perfection, as you ask later.

Now if I'm misunderstanding you, maybe it is stemming from the extremely hypothetical nature of your question?
There might be a chronological issue that is required to clarify. Could Jesus have failed while on earth, yes, ...but not after reaching perfection.
Question lies, when did he reach perfection (after he obeyed unto death-the cross, or previously). And, when do you mean follow the beast (at the end times, or during his temptation)
Maybe I didn't follow you 100%?

I thought the question straightforward enough. "What would have happened after he was baptized and came up out of the water if he had sold out to Satan?" You never really answered it. It's fine with me if you don't have an answer you want to give, but so far I've seen no answer. Now that I looked up all our exchanges, I wasn't the person who used the phrase "follow the beast." You were. That strikes me as odd to ask what I meant by it when you were the person who used it, not me. I don't think you did understand me.

brakelite · Jan 12, 2020

Earburner said:
Every time that you use the words "THE" Anti Christ, you trip yourself up, head over heels into the fabrications and false interpretations of "Church-ianity", who vainly have tried to force fit scripture to support their idea of a singular man.
The context of 2 Thes. 2 IS IN THE PLURAL, not the singular!!

It's a number of individual men, yes, but they all comprise a whole... The Antichrist system they are head of...
And the horn
(which became a beast in its own right)
had the eyes of a man.

DNB · Jan 12, 2020

Giuliano said:
I thought the question straightforward enough. "What would have happened after he was baptized and came up out of the water if he had sold out to Satan?" You never really answered it. It's fine with me if you don't have an answer you want to give, but so far I've seen no answer. Now that I looked up all our exchanges, I wasn't the person who used the phrase "follow the beast." You were. That strikes me as odd to ask what I meant by it when you were the person who used it, not me. I don't think you did understand me.

Well, you're right, ..and wrong.
You did not say 'follow the beast' , i confused your baptism reference, with the Revelation part of the Beast coming out of the water (not sure why).
But, all the same, i did answer your question the first time, if Jesus sold out to Satan, it would mean that salvation was lost, ..as far as we know it to be.

But sorry, I'm finally getting your point, you raise an interesting question. If Jesus failed in trying to achieve man's redemption, and that by doing so, he lost our salvation and his own, where does God and his creation stand now? That is, would God have a contingency plan?

If I got it right this time, my answer then, is a categorical and unequivocal no, God would not impose a fourth opportunity for eternal life!
We failed at the Garden of Eden, failed under the Law, failed again with Jesus, what would be the purpose now, for God is looking rather inept at this point, ...get it?
You see, you're missing the paramount point to Jesus Christ and God's divine will, i.e. he was God's first-born of all creation. All the failures were meant to introduce him, and explain God's plan.
All was created for Christ, including you and me, ...not him for us. History only makes it seem that way, that's God's wisdom.
So, sorry Giuliano, again, your question is way too hypothetical to the point that it's naive.
For, it implies that you didn't understand what just transpired in history, and why. Adam & Eve never foiled God's plan. The Israelites never frustrated God's purpose either. All this was meant to reveal his perfect Son, and man's constant unprovoked and unwarranted rebellion.
So, no, if Jesus failed, we would have to take away the title of first-born, which was ordained to him before history began, therefore, can not be taken away.
Thus, there wouldn't have even been a baptism if he wasn't God's first-born, ...and no universe either (for all was created for him), ...thus, no room for selling out.

Giuliano · Jan 12, 2020

DNB said:
Well, you're right, ..and wrong.
You did not say 'follow the beast' , i confused your baptism reference, with the Revelation part of the Beast coming out of the water (not sure why).
But, all the same, i did answer your question the first time, if Jesus sold out to Satan, it would mean that salvation was lost, ..as far as we know it to be.

But sorry, I'm finally getting your point, you raise an interesting question. If Jesus failed in trying to achieve man's redemption, and that by doing so, he lost our salvation and his own, where does God and his creation stand now? That is, would God have a contingency plan?

If I got it right this time, my answer then, is a categorical and unequivocal no, God would not impose a fourth opportunity for eternal life!
We failed at the Garden of Eden, failed under the Law, failed again with Jesus, what would be the purpose now, for God is looking rather inept at this point, ...get it?
You see, you're missing the paramount point to Jesus Christ and God's divine will, i.e. he was God's first-born of all creation. All the failures were meant to introduce him, and explain God's plan.
All was created for Christ, including you and me, ...not him for us. History only makes it seem that way, that's God's wisdom.
So, sorry Giuliano, again, your question is way too hypothetical to the point that it's naive.
For, it implies that you didn't understand what just transpired in history, and why. Adam & Eve never foiled God's plan. The Israelites never frustrated God's purpose either. All this was meant to reveal his perfect Son, and man's constant unprovoked and unwarranted rebellion.
So, no, if Jesus failed, we would have to take away the title of first-born, which was ordained to him before history began, therefore, can not be taken away.
Thus, there wouldn't have even been a baptism if he wasn't God's first-born, ...and no universe either (for all was created for him), ...thus, no room for selling out.

I found this post condescending in tone; and to be blunt, you have already shown me you have no cause to be condescending. I think you are a person who thinks a little too highly of himself and his own intellectual abilities and understanding. I also say with some disappointment, you still failed to answer the question, preferring instead to dismiss it as "too hypothetical." So we're back to a Jesus who couldn't fail and thus couldn't be truly tempted.

For the record, John wrote:

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

That is not about Jesus since he appears later in chapter 5.

I doubt continuing this conversation would accomplish much.

bbyrd009 · Jan 12, 2020

DNB said:
Yes

ok well "eternal" might mean forever, or it might mean forever as far as you are concerned, from aeon, a space of time, from eternity to eternity, like that maybe? There is only One Immortal? No one has ever gone up to heaven? Where I am going, you cannot come? So i dunno, ok, but i would reflect upon the possibility that that wont happen, and you and your sons will be here with me instead, rather than Cult of Sol in a dress, ok? With all, every single one, of the attendant elements, Jesus as Apollos, etc.

btw there's a hidden trackback button in every quote banner in a post, just like this one, where it says "DNB said:" just to the right of the colon

DNB said:
Paul's wolves were extremely reliable. Although considered wild by nature, if fed regularly and trained properly, wolves can be trusted and be extremely disciplined. I won't guarantee that they'll fetch a ball every time that one is thrown to them, or not chase a fox when told not to, but extremely reliable all the same.

well i agree they are as reliable as a reed, yes, and we all trust what we will trust, but i just dont anymore, where Paul's wolves are concerned. Doesnt mean they werent doing their best i guess, and we all gotta start somewhere eh. The blind lead, the blind

DNB said:
yes, yes

well, im reading No one has ever gone up to heaven, so i gotta wonder how you can say that with so much confidence tbh

DNB said:
Well, you're right, ..and wrong.

wadr you might contemplate standing where it should not be in that context, and also manna and meat, which we just did right before you got here. Meanwhile, have a good day leading bro, we make leaders in this country huh

bbyrd009 · Jan 12, 2020

Giuliano said:
I was asking if Jesus could have become "a beast that came out of the water" by following Satan and betraying the Father.

good point imo, using Jesus maybe clouds the point tho

VictoryinJesus · Jan 12, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
if you could rephrase the q more succinctly, im not getting the perceived dichotomy yet i guess sorry

its okay. Doesn’t matter. I’ve just always been confused there at what you mean about none can abide in the Light but instead He abides alone in it. (Unless I’ve misunderstood). Only saw it as relevant in discussing the Revelation of Jesus Christ to show to His servants. is the Revelation of Jesus Christ Light or darkness given to His servants? Is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the spirit of fear unto bondage again or 2 Timothy 1:7-8 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. [8] Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

Berserk · Jan 12, 2020

There is no debate among academic Bible scholars and commentaries about the meaning of "666." For 3 reasons, "Emperor Nero" is the unanimous answer:
(1) The answer is determined by gematria, which is often used in this era. In Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, letters also stand for numbers. The numerical equivalent of "Emperor Nero" in Hebrew (actually "Caesar Neron") is "666." The use of Hebrew gematria makes it harder for Roman persecutors to decipher this code.

(2) Then when the Bible was translated into Latin, the number is changed to "616." Why? Because in Latin the nun (= "n") is deleted from "Caesar Neron," dropping the gematria number to "616." This change attests the early Christian consensus that the gematria "666" stands for "emperor Nero" (not for "Nero" alone!).

(3) The identification of the "man" represented by "666" (13:18) as "the Beast" of 13:3 removes all doubt about a Nero identification.
13:3 elaborates on this identification by noting, "One of its heads seemed to have received a death blow, but its mortal wound had been healed." Ancient Roman historians report the rumor that after Nero's exile from Rome, he committed suicide in Asia Minor. But then new rumors arose that Nero had come back to life and was about to return in triumph to reclaim his throne in Rome. Tacitus and Suetonius report that 3 Nero impersonators terrorized the empire, adding fuel to this rumor, which was rampant in the time when Revelation was composed.

The real issue here is whether it is legitimate to prophetically apply this Nero imagery to a modern Nero-type dictator.

DNB · Jan 12, 2020

Giuliano said:
I found this post condescending in tone; and to be blunt, you have already shown me you have no cause to be condescending. I think you are a person who thinks a little too highly of himself and his own intellectual abilities and understanding. I also say with some disappointment, you still failed to answer the question, preferring instead to dismiss it as "too hypothetical." So we're back to a Jesus who couldn't fail and thus couldn't be truly tempted.

For the record, John wrote:

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

That is not about Jesus since he appears later in chapter 5.

I doubt continuing this conversation would accomplish much.

Alright, sorry for the perceived tone of arrogance, ...but, I thought that it was commonly accepted that all things were created for Jesus. My mistake for assuming that. But, it still is my position.
I don't think that Rev 4:11 dismisses that point. For Ultimately, all things are sustained by God the Father, so even Jesus, who is his primary and pre-eminent creation, must pay hommage to God. But again, that still makes Jesus the desire behind God to create all things, as God found pleasure in this set-up.
Therefore, if true, that would preclude the grounds to ask such a question as you did.
But again, i was assuming that you accepted the predicate that Jesus was the first-born, destined to become King of Kings & Lord of Lords.
Which, in my opinion, does not make beyond temptation. We are condemned because Jesus fulfilled the Law, obeyed God perfectly, and loved him with all his heart, mind, soul and life. Something that was incumbent upon us all, but none of us did. If Jesus were beyond seduction to sin, then even Adam could argue that God was unjust in tempting both him and Eve. But because he was human like Adam, you & I, he was tempted in all ways, making himself worthy to end the Law, and be exalted to ewhere he is now.

DNB · Jan 12, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
ok well "eternal" might mean forever, or it might mean forever as far as you are concerned, from aeon, a space of time, from eternity to eternity, like that maybe? There is only One Immortal? No one has ever gone up to heaven? Where I am going, you cannot come? So i dunno, ok, but i would reflect upon the possibility that that wont happen, and you and your sons will be here with me instead, rather than Cult of Sol in a dress, ok? With all, every single one, of the attendant elements, Jesus as Apollos, etc.

btw there's a hidden trackback button in every quote banner in a post, just like this one, where it says "DNB said:" just to the right of the colon

well i agree they are as reliable as a reed, yes, and we all trust what we will trust, but i just dont anymore, where Paul's wolves are concerned. Doesnt mean they werent doing their best i guess, and we all gotta start somewhere eh. The blind lead, the blind

well, im reading No one has ever gone up to heaven, so i gotta wonder how you can say that with so much confidence tbh

wadr you might contemplate standing where it should not be in that context, and also manna and meat, which we just did right before you got here. Meanwhile, have a good day leading bro, we make leaders in this country huh

Thanks a lot for the track-back tip, ...really frustrating trying to navigate back to a previous post.
Have a good day also, thanks for the discussion!

bbyrd009 · Jan 12, 2020

VictoryinJesus said:
I’ve just always been confused there at what you mean about none can abide in the Light but instead He abides alone in it.

hmm, i dont recall saying "none can abide in the light," tho i more or less agree. Do you recall the context i said that in? I remem saying stuff like "Who Alone is Immortal, and dwells in unapproachable light" which is a not great xlation btw but anyway v trinity doctrine (not actual Trinity) or ppl who think they are going to a place called heaven after they have died to also become immortal--Cult of Sol Invictus stuff iow--ring any bells?

Giuliano · Jan 12, 2020

DNB said:
Alright, sorry for the perceived tone of arrogance, ...but, I thought that it was commonly accepted that all things were created for Jesus. My mistake for assuming that. But, it still is my position.
I don't think that Rev 4:11 dismisses that point. For Ultimately, all things are sustained by God the Father, so even Jesus, who is his primary and pre-eminent creation, must pay hommage to God. But again, that still makes Jesus the desire behind God to create all things, as God found pleasure in this set-up.
Therefore, if true, that would preclude the grounds to ask such a question as you did.
But again, i was assuming that you accepted the predicate that Jesus was the first-born, destined to become King of Kings & Lord of Lords.
Which, in my opinion, does not make beyond temptation. We are condemned because Jesus fulfilled the Law, obeyed God perfectly, and loved him with all his heart, mind, soul and life. Something that was incumbent upon us all, but none of us did. If Jesus were beyond seduction to sin, then even Adam could argue that God was unjust in tempting both him and Eve. But because he was human like Adam, you & I, he was tempted in all ways, making himself worthy to end the Law, and be exalted to ewhere he is now.

I think we're making different assumptions about some things.

bbyrd009 · Jan 12, 2020

we do understand that "king of kings, lord of lords, messiah, savior," et al these are all titles of Caesar right?

VictoryinJesus said:
Only saw it as relevant in discussing the Revelation of Jesus Christ to show to His servants. is the Revelation of Jesus Christ Light or darkness given to His servants?

well, yes
ha sorry
but i means satan serves Yah too right
everything serves Yah

but imo The Rev reads you, you dont read The Rev lol
pls, print (your) interpretation of The Rev narf

um but for you, just go grab a random post interping The Rev, randomize it however, and then strip out the IDers and bring it here, and we'll see if you like. Make it an old one i guess

VictoryinJesus said:
its okay. Doesn’t matter. I’ve just always been confused there at what you mean about none can abide in the Light but instead He abides alone in it. (Unless I’ve misunderstood). Only saw it as relevant in discussing the Revelation of Jesus Christ to show to His servants. is the Revelation of Jesus Christ Light or darkness given to His servants? Is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the spirit of fear unto bondage again or 2 Timothy 1:7-8 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. [8] Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

iow basically go to the proverbial cross joyfully, easier said than done maybe

VictoryinJesus · Jan 12, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
"Who Alone is Immortal, and dwells in unapproachable light"

yeah, that is the one. Never have understood there. “Pick up your cross and follow” is not unto the unapproachable light?

bbyrd009 · Jan 12, 2020

VictoryinJesus said:
yeah, that is the one. Never have understood there. “Pick up your cross and follow” is not unto the unapproachable light?

ah well maybe taking a step toward it, but really comes under "what you should have been doing" anyway?
To respond to the implied question, imo the fact that our spirit goes back to God is really going to moot the desire for soul immortality pretty much at the moment of death, or right after or whatever

VictoryinJesus said:
yeah, that is the one. Never have understood there. “Pick up your cross and follow” is not unto the unapproachable light?

rewarded for what you should have been doing anyway
https://biblehub.com/lexicon/luke/17-10.htm
which see we dont have this attitude right
wheres my crown lol

DNB · Jan 12, 2020

Giuliano said:
I think we're making different assumptions about some things.

Probably, fair enough, thx!

VictoryinJesus · Jan 12, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
imo the fact that our spirit goes back to God

Our spirit goes back to God. Return to me and I will return to you.? Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

not trying to convince that which perishes is immortal. No. Neither a literal crown is incorruptible. “Our spirit goes back to God who gave it” John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Base12 · Jan 12, 2020

Willie T said:
….. and why does he use this 666 "code?"

Revelation 13:18 King James Version (KJV)

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

I haven't read the previous pages, so I apologize if this has been brought up already.

The Word of God gives us the answer plainly. No need to look outside of it. All One needs to do is simply look for a verse in the Bible that describes a mark in the forehead...

Ezekiel 3:9
"As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house"

Adamant is a Diamond, thus God made Ezekiel's Forehead like a Diamond. Why?

To match the heads of the Rebellious House...

Ezekiel 3:8
"Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads"

The Rebellious House is a foreshadowing of those that will take the Mark of the Beast. In other words, God is teaching us that the Mark on the Forehead is like a Diamond.

Diamond is Carbon.

Carbon contains...

6 Neutrons
6 Protons
6 Electrons

666

So what does all of this mean?

We are Carbon Based Life Forms. The Mark of the Beast is designed to keep Humanity trapped in their corrupt flesh bodies via Transhumanism.

It goes all the way back to the Serpent promising Adam and Eve that they 'surely won't die'.

I.e. Man trying to become Gods.

Base12 · Jan 12, 2020

Here is another Witness...

Jeremiah 17:1
"The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars"

The verse clearly shows that Sin is written with 666. The Carbon Diamond.

On top of that, God reveals that it is written in our DNA... the 'Tables of the Heart'.

Again... look in the Word of God for the clues as to what the 'Mark' may be...

Genesis 4:15
"And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him"

The Mark of the Beast is the same as the Mark of Cain.

BTW...

The word 'Cain' means 'to buy and sell'.

Now you know the name of the Beast.

Base12 · Jan 12, 2020

I can do this all day.

Another Witness...

Strong's 8068: Shamir
Definition: Thorn, Adamant, Flint, Diamond

Strong's Hebrew: 8068. שָׁמִיר (shamir) -- a thorn, adamant, flint

The word 'Diamond' is also translated as 'Briers' as in sinful flesh...

Isaiah 9:18
"For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke"

Ash and Smoke are also Carbon 666.

Genesis 18:27
"And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes"

Abraham teaches us that we are Carbon/666 Based Life Forms.

Note that the word 'Ashes' is Strong's 666....

Is God trying to tell you folks something?

Who is John talking about.........

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