The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

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mjrhealth

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You did not answer me. I said the letter that kills is the OT, not the NT.
Agreed?
it all does, just look at you and BOL at each others throats, where is the life in that, our life is in Christ if you seek Him you will find it.
 

Truther

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it all does, just look at you and BOL at each others throats, where is the life in that, our life is in Christ if you seek Him you will find it.
Well, per 2 Cor 3, it says they are ministers of the N.T., not the O.T., because the O.T. kills, but the N.T.(Spirit) is life.

The Apostles writings and doctrine are life.

The Spirit alone leads us to un-doctrinal chaos.

Folks say "God said this or that", many times unscripturally.

I am sure you see that from time to time....
 

Truther

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The yoke is the bondage they put themselves into when people try put the words of the NT down in a set of black and white laws similar the laws God gave to Moses. Consider what Jesus brought: Life

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" Acts 2:38

Water baptism is a good thing, but if a person is immersed in the name without material water [H20), what difference might you see? What is the name? Where is the name? How does one get into the name?

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matt 18:20 This verse certainly is not talking about 2 or 3 people getting together in baptistry pool, is it? It is talking any time any where getting into His name so that Jesus will be in their midst. It is not necessary to get into a tank or pool of water every time we want to do this.

Many people meet regularly to worship God and when they do they should really all, [each person], be in His name to get what God wants them to get when they gather together. Without being the "in His name" such a gathering of people amount to nothing more than a social gathering of people. It may be good, but it certainly falls short of the "very good" that God made in the beginning [Gen 1:31].

The fact that they all were initially baptized in water with someone reciting the words, "in the name of Jesus" won't make them be "in the name" every time thereafter that they are physically gather together. What makes the difference are other things, such as praising God for God certainly does inhabit the praises of His people [Psalm 22:3]. Being in the name as I understand it means being in His presence. Every time we talk to God we should be in His presence. It is better with 2 or 3 or more, but we can do it alone with God only.
One gets into the name per immersion in the name......


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


This is extremely simple....like a bath.

I think folks that teach water baptism is a yoke just hate taking baths.
 

mjrhealth

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Well, per 2 Cor 3, it says they are ministers of the N.T., not the O.T., because the O.T. kills, but the N.T.(Spirit) is life.

The Apostles writings and doctrine are life.

The Spirit alone leads us to un-doctrinal chaos.

Folks say "God said this or that", many times unscripturally.

I am sure you see that from time to time....
No they are not, it all points to Christ, whats it He say,

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

you wont find life in the bible, you will only find it in Him, its called "Christianity", for a reason.
 

amadeus

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One gets into the name per immersion in the name......


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


This is extremely simple....like a bath.

I think folks that teach water baptism is a yoke just hate taking baths.
You simply restated what you had already said without addressing the rest on my post. You surely do not get baptized in water every time you press to be "in his name"? If you believe a person stays always in his name after that initial dunk in water, that would appear to me a statement in support of OSAS and I quite sure you don't believe in that. Could you clarify what happens from the point of water baptism forward in a person's walk with God?
 
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Truther

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You simply restated what you had already said without addressing the rest on my post. You surely do not get baptized in water every time you press to be "in his name"? If you believe a person stays always in his name after that initial dunk in water, that would appear to me a statement in support of OSAS and I quite sure you don't believe in that. Could you clarify what happens from the point of water baptism forward in a person's walk with God?
Their sins are remitted.
This gives them a clear conscience before God.
Now they can fellowship with God without the guilt associated with sin.
 

Truther

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No they are not, it all points to Christ, whats it He say,

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

you wont find life in the bible, you will only find it in Him, its called "Christianity", for a reason.
Do you read the NT?
If so, do you obey it or just the Spirit?
 

amadeus

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Their sins are remitted.
This gives them a clear conscience before God.
Now they can fellowship with God without the guilt associated with sin.
You still did not address my questions. What does it mean for 2 or 3 to be gathered in his name? That verse is shown in the gospel account to be actual words that Jesus spoke. What did he mean? Do you believe that you have done everything was necessary for the remainder of your allotted time as a man of flesh when you have been properly dipped and anointed in the water tank? Is there nothing more to do? Does it matter for salvation sake if you never again are "in the name"?
 

Truther

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You still did not address my questions. What does it mean for 2 or 3 to be gathered in his name? That verse is shown in the gospel account to be actual words that Jesus spoke. What did he mean? Do you believe that you have done everything was necessary for the remainder of your allotted time as a man of flesh when you have been properly dipped and anointed in the water tank? Is there nothing more to do? Does it matter for salvation sake if you never again are "in the name"?
Oh, sorry, when folks gather in His name, it is for fellowship.
Gathering in His name does not remit sins though.
 

mjrhealth

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Do you read the NT?
If so, do you obey it or just the Spirit?
Just Jesus, is He a problem to you or the Holy Spirit that God sends to all those whom believe to teach us the truth, not the bible. as

Eph_4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

you can leave Him out if you choose.
 

justbyfaith

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--Faith/belief is obedience. Faith only does not justify.

--The fact remains no case in the Bible of God saving anyone who continued in disobedience/rebellion to His will.

Living/saving faith produces obedience: it is an obedient attitude.

It is not our obedient actions (works) that save us; but our faith: which is an attitude that results in obedient actions.

And there you go again thinking YOUR interpretation is best – when there are literally tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines yet insist that THEIR interpretations are correct.

I find that the majority of Protestant denominations have unity in what we call the essentials of the faith. If a group departs from the truth in what we call an essential, they are usually designated as a pseudo-Christian cult, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

I consider that I labour in the word and doctrine. Therefore I am to be counted worthy of double honour, even in the sense that we have been speaking of (in that I am in and of the church and therefore have the final authority when it comes to how you interpret holy scripture).

That’s WHY we have tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines ALL claiming that THEIR interpretations are correct.

Perhaps you could give us an example of what you are talking about? I find that there are a few Protestant sects and none of them departs from scripture when it comes to essential doctrine.

I will give an example that I think of: Nazarenes believe in entire sanctification and generally Baptists don't emphasize this truth. However, the latter group will not deny this truth if the minister sees it in the Bible. Nazarenes also have bent against speaking in tongues as a practice. However, this is not an essential, doctrinal issue but an issue concerning methods of how we worship God. This also is true of differences between, say, Baptists and Methodists, some churches rely more on liturgy, others want to be more flexible with the Holy Spirit.

God created people differently; and some people feel more comfortable in a church that tongues-speakers might consider "dead".

But again, none of these things has to do with essential doctrine; but everything to do with preferences as concerning how we worship the Lord.
 

RogerDC

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Most churches today teach false doctrines for several reasons:
ignorance, unbelief, for popularity, for financial benefit, etc.
Only a few churches are teaching correct doctrine these days.
There is more to correct doctrine than “Jesus is Lord and Savior”.
Many Spirit-filled Christians are warning, “The church is fast asleep!”

Grace-only, cheap-grace, hyper-grace, easy-believism …
are all called antinomianism! This is the notion that a one-time
justification saves … apart from sanctification. But, this is an
incomplete understanding of God’s wonderful free gift of grace!

The problem with easy-believism is that it allows
those who are living in hypocrisy, disobedience, and sin
(i.e. those who are NOT walking in obedience)
to live comfortably with a false assurance of salvation!
This leads to the tragedy described in Matthew 7:21-23 (for example).

“… some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches,
saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives.
… they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” (Jude 4-5, NLT)


NOTE: We are talking here about believers who have received the Holy Spirit.

There are at least 10 NT verses for each of the following truths …

Believers prove they have true saving faith:
1 -- by their obedience
2 -- by practicing righteousness
3 -- by living holy lives
4 -- by having a healthy fear of God
5 -- by repenting of their occasional sins
6 –- by overcoming sin, the world, Satan, persecution
7 -- by enduring in the faith to the end of their lives

Re: #4 … If people are believing and trusting in grace-only, cheap-grace,
hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc., HOW can they be fearing God?

So, all of these verses PROVE the road to eternal life is indeed narrow,
and believers are responsible for playing their part in their salvation!
Or, shall we view these verses as merely bluffs, exaggerations, lies even?

Initially, through His grace, God gives to new believers:
Jesus’ righteousness, redemption, reconciliation, etc. and salvation.
However, this grace/salvation is NOT guaranteed to last forever!
Because ONLY their old-past-former sins have been forgiven (2 Peter 1:9).
And because NT verses warn about the possibility of losing salvation.

Some believers became “estranged from Christ”
… they had “fallen from grace” (Galatians 5:4).

Some believers are “of those who draw back to perdition” (Hebrews 10:39).

And there are many more warning verses.
.
This is a great post, Zachary. Justification can be lost due to deadly sins and/or loss f faith. Furthermore, no one is saved until Jesus judges us after we die and grants us eternal life in heaven.
And as James 2:26 says, "faith without works is dead" - the false doctrine of "faith alone" is a sure-fire recipe for DEAD FAITH. Works are essential for justification and hence, salvation. Works include repentance and keeping God's commandments.
 

justbyfaith

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Works are not required for justification.

They are the result of a living faith; by which we are alone justified.

If I give $5, or even $5,000,000, to the poor, this is not going to bring about the regeneration of the Holy Spirit in my life (see Titus 3:5). If that were the case, the reward would not be reckoned of grace, but of debt (see Romans 4:4).

His faith is counted to him as righteousness, who worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly (see Romans 4:5).

God imputes righteousness apart from works (see Romans 4:6).

That being said, I define faith as being an attitude of obedience; and therefore if true faith is in the heart, obedient action will not be far behind.

Regeneration is accomplished "not by works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5).

It is accomplished by faith in Christ, through repenting and receiving Jesus Christ into your heart as Saviour and as Lord.

It becomes a state of mind in which you are obedient. By faith, Jesus is your Lord.

But the things that you do over the fact that Jesus is your Lord have no power to save you (see Ephesians 2:8-9).

What saves you is your relationship to Him; which results in being a doer of the word and not a hearer only.
 

BreadOfLife

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I find that the majority of Protestant denominations have unity in what we call the essentials of the faith. If a group departs from the truth in what we call an essential, they are usually designated as a pseudo-Christian cult, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.
Really?
Whereas Catholics AND Protestants agree on MANY essentials . . .
Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on . . .


Doesn't sound like "unity on essentials" to me . . .
I consider that I labour in the word and doctrine. Therefore I am to be counted worthy of double honour, even in the sense that we have been speaking of (in that I am in and of the church and therefore have the final authority when it comes to how you interpret holy scripture).
1 Tim. 5:17 says to "Let the ELDERS (Presbyteroi/Priests) that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, ..."
Are you part of the Presbyteroi? If not - they YOU are guilty of the sin of Korah.

In the Epistle of Jude, we read the warning about those who would usurp Church Authority by assuming the ministerial priesthood without the Church’s consent (Jude 1:11). In this passage he compares them to the rebellion of Korah and their subsequent punishment (Numbers 16:1-35; 31:16).

1 Cor. 12:29-31
Are ALL apostles? Are ALL prophets? Are ALL teachers? Do ALL work mighty deeds?
Do ALL have gifts of healing? Do ALL speak in tongues? Do ALL interpret?
Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts.


Be careful about overstepping your bounds . . .
Perhaps you could give us an example of what you are talking about? I find that there are a few Protestant sects and none of them departs from scripture when it comes to essential doctrine.

I will give an example that I think of: Nazarenes believe in entire sanctification and generally Baptists don't emphasize this truth. However, the latter group will not deny this truth if the minister sees it in the Bible. Nazarenes also have bent against speaking in tongues as a practice. However, this is not an essential, doctrinal issue but an issue concerning methods of how we worship God. This also is true of differences between, say, Baptists and Methodists, some churches rely more on liturgy, others want to be more flexible with the Holy Spirit.

God created people differently; and some people feel more comfortable in a church that tongues-speakers might consider "dead".

But again, none of these things has to do with essential doctrine; but everything to do with preferences as concerning how we worship the Lord.
Read the list I gave you above . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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Works are not required for justification.

They are the result of a living faith; by which we are alone justified.

If I give $5, or even $5,000,000, to the poor, this is not going to bring about the regeneration of the Holy Spirit in my life (see Titus 3:5). If that were the case, the reward would not be reckoned of grace, but of debt (see Romans 4:4).

His faith is counted to him as righteousness, who worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly (see Romans 4:5).

God imputes righteousness apart from works (see Romans 4:6).

That being said, I define faith as being an attitude of obedience; and therefore if true faith is in the heart, obedient action will not be far behind.

Regeneration is accomplished "not by works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5).

It is accomplished by faith in Christ, through repenting and receiving Jesus Christ into your heart as Saviour and as Lord.

It becomes a state of mind in which you are obedient. By faith, Jesus is your Lord.

But the things that you do over the fact that Jesus is your Lord have no power to save you (see Ephesians 2:8-9).

What saves you is your relationship to Him; which results in being a doer of the word and not a hearer only.
Works are not a "result" or "after effect" of faith - they are an essential component of faith (James 2:19-24, Gal. 5:6).

Faith us a gift from God - as are WORKS. We are taught in Scripture that God prepared good works for us IN ADVANCE (Eph. 2:10). They are GIFTS from Him - and not of our own
The works that Scripture speaks of as NOT being efficacious are "good" works that do NOT involve belief and trust in God.

Faith is NOT simply "believing". As I have shown you MANY times before - even the demons believe in the truth about God (James 2:19). If ALL you do is "believe" - then you'r NO better off than the demons.

TRUE Faith = Belief + Works (obedience)
 
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justbyfaith

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Really?
Whereas Catholics AND Protestants agree on MANY essentials . . .
Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on . . .


Doesn't sound like "unity on essentials" to me . . .

None of these are essentials of the faith.

In the Epistle of Jude, we read the warning about those who would usurp Church Authority by assuming the ministerial priesthood without the Church’s consent (Jude 1:11). In this passage he compares them to the rebellion of Korah and their subsequent punishment (Numbers 16:1-35; 31:16).

Seems to me like the priesthood of all believers is given as a doctrine here:

1Pe 2:5, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Works are not a "result" or "after effect" of faith - they are an essential component of faith

Wrong.

Faith us a gift from God - as are WORKS. We are taught in Scripture that God prepared good works for us IN ADVANCE (Eph. 2:10). They are GIFTS from Him - and not of our own

Works do not save anyone. period. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 11:5-6).

TRUE Faith = Belief + Works (obedience)

More accurately,

Faith = an obedient attitude.

And salvation is by grace, through faith alone in Jesus Christ (receiving Him as Saviour and Lord)...

...not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
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Helen

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This is a great post, Zachary. Justification can be lost due to deadly sins and/or loss f faith. Furthermore, no one is saved until Jesus judges us after we die and grants us eternal life in heaven.
And as James 2:26 says, "faith without works is dead" - the false doctrine of "faith alone" is a sure-fire recipe for DEAD FAITH. Works are essential for justification and hence, salvation. Works include repentance and keeping God's commandments.


Welcome to the forum .

So, what do you do with.
1 John 5:13
13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

If you don't believe that..why?
 
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BreadOfLife

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None of these are essentials of the faith.
REALLY??
Belief in the Trinity is NOT an essential??
Abortion (murder) is NOT an essential??
Baptismal Regeneration is NOT an essential??

You don't know what you're talking about.
Seems to me like the priesthood of all believers is given as a doctrine here:
1Pe 2:5, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Seems to ME that YOU don't know the Scriptures OR the history of God's people.
Time for a Bible lesson . . .

In the Old Testament, there were THREE levels of Priests:
Aaron, the High Priest
The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood
The rest of the people were a general priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also THREE levels of Priests:
Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25)
The Ministerial/Levitical Priests (James 5:14-15)
The general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9)

Just as with all New Testament fulfillments, the fulfillment is ALWAYS more glorious than the Old Testament type.
1 Thess. 5:12 and 1 Tim. 5:17 is talking about the MINISTERIAL Priests - not the general priesthood of all Christians.
Wrong.
Works do not save anyone. period. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 11:5-6).

More accurately,
Faith = an obedient attitude.
And salvation is by grace, through faith alone in Jesus Christ (receiving Him as Saviour and Lord)...
...not of works, lest any man should boast.
WRONG.

Works of your own have no effect on your salvation.
HOWEVER - the works that GOD prepared for us in advance certainly do (Eph. 2:10, Matt. 7:21). This is the entire point of the Lesson of the Sheep and the Goats:

Matt. 25:37-43

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left,
‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
 
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BreadOfLife

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Welcome to the forum .

So, what do you do with.
1 John 5:13
13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

If you don't believe that..why?
Hi Helen -
I believe in that verse.
However, things may change in our lifetime - by our own doing. We stumble - and sometimes fall away.

Remember - Jesus also says the following:
Matt. 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

That's why we are warned in the following passages not to fall back into a life of willful sin - or we can LOSE our secure position (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).
 
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justbyfaith

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REALLY??
Belief in the Trinity is NOT an essential??
Abortion (murder) is NOT an essential??
Baptismal Regeneration is NOT an essential??

You don't know what you're talking about.

I know that there are many Oneness believers out there who are saved to the bone...and they deny the Trinity (but not the Deity of Christ...which is the real essential here (John 8:24)).

There are women who have committed abortion who have become quite redeemed since they committed that act (or those acts).

And we are certainly not regenerated through baptism (Titus 3:5). So how would it be an essential?

Works of your own have no effect on your salvation.
HOWEVER - the works that GOD prepared for us in advance certainly do

Wrong.

We are not saved by works, period.

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
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