The Destruction of Iran in the Last Days =Jeremiah 49

Keraz said:

I have already shown the scripture that proves the RCC and the 'beast' empire are two different entities. Revelation 17:15-18
Your premise may have some credibility for the time up until now, but it doesn't for the end times.

Click to expand...

I think what you have shown re the end times Keraz is a hotch potch of misapplied scriptures.

The foundations of the leaning tower of Pisa is testimony to inadequate or faulty research by the builders.... in the same manner, the exegesis you put forward has blind spots and a misunderstood larger picture.

GISMYS_7 said:

God Words about Israel===
Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Click to expand...

Actually not God's Words about Israel but His Words about Abraham.

Galatians 3:7. 'Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.'
Philippians 3:3. 'For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.'

Keraz said:

I have already shown the scripture that proves the RCC and the 'beast' empire are two different entities. Revelation 17:15-18
Your premise may have some cr edibility for the time up until now, but it doesn't for the end times.

Click to expand...

Think about the big picture. We are in the midst of a controversy between Christ and Satan. Throughout human history the devil has instigsted a plan to impede God's purposes for mankind, and had established institutions to accomplish it. The first was at Babel. This grew and developed, and morphed, changed, evolved, and continued to grow in power and influence. And God knew all about it from the beginning, and in love, mercy and grace through His prophets revealed to man the devil's plans, with a remarkable amount of detail in order we be not deceived. Starting at Babel/Babylon, God revealed to us an evolving timeline of pagan institutional church/state unions all with the common purpose to overthrow or deceive God's people... Beginning with Israel, and now the church.
As we progress in time towards the end, the beasts inevitably took on a closer resemblance to their maker, until the final manifestation as in Revelation 17, is an exact image, just as God's people in the end become an exact image of their Maker.
The RCC as an institution was one link in a long line of institutionalised paganism. Babylon the great, mother of harlots, in connection with the beast she rides, is the final manifestation. The church riding, being supported by, relying on the state power to implement religious doctrine through secular legislation.
Think climate change and the pope's current encyclicals on the subject. Think environmentalism and the plans afoot to mandate Sunday observance to reduce emissions and uplift family and socialism. Think the devil, insane and brilliant, determined to destroy God's people through any means possible... As Jesus said, in these last days through deception. Sunday enforced... But not openly as a holy day... But a day to benefit all of society...
Won't happen yet. Not enough public support yet. But through his many appearances all around the world... His letters... Public pronouncements... His ongoing electioneering... The Pope is fast positioning himself as the popular mandate to lead the coming NWO. And we are just one global disaster away from the whole world wondering after the Catholic beast to take over society and lead the world into a new future.
Face it. Adventists have been teaching this scenario for 175 years. Their understanding since the 1850s and their unique eschatology has been consistent in all its major details, and it is the only perspective I know of that over such a long period of time that has looked more and more relevant as time progresses.

Thank you Brakelite, you are a good, sincere person.
However; I will stick with what the Bible teaches. There will be a One World Govt formed soon after the Lords Day of fiery wrath has devastated the world. It will be a secular Government, run by ten Presidents of ten world regions. Daniel 7:23-24
It won't be too long before another powerful and charismatic man will rise and become the dictator of the world, excepting for the Christian nation of Beulah, in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5
He will ban all religions and demand worship of himself, or pain of death. Revelation 13:15 The fate of the RCC leaders. Revelation 17:16

He will come to Beulah and negotiate a seven year treaty of peace, because he will see how God protected Beulah when a huge army comes down from the North, Ezekiel 38:1-7.
But he will break that treaty after half has passed; 3 1/2 years of world peace. Beulah will be conquered, Zechariah 14:1-2, and about half of the people will leave the holy Land. They are the ones in Revelation 12:14, who will be kept safe for the last half of the seven years.
The other half of the Christians are the ones who agreed to this peace treaty, Daniel 11:32a, Isaiah 28:14-15, Revelation 12:17

He will sit in the Temple and declare himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4
Then exactly 1260 days later, Jesus will Return and destroy his army and chain him; Satan, up for a thousand years. Revelation 19:17-21

Face it: The wisdom of the wise will be lost, Isaiah 29:14, Matthew 11:25, and Who is so blind as My servants... Isaiah 42:18-20
So a trust in what the learned and so called 'wise' people teach, is sadly misplaced.

brakelite said:

@Naomi25
The Little horn described as growing from the 4th beast of the Daniel 7 vision of the four beasts prophecy is universally identified by biblical scholarship as being the same entity as the man of sin... The Antichrist... First beast of revelation 13... Because all share contextually the same criteria... Same life span... Same chronology. Here are 11 specific characteristics of that little horn, many of which he shares with those other metaphorical presentations of this entity.
1. The little horn arises from the fourth beast (7:8). The fourth beast represents Rome, so the little horn must be a Roman power.

2. The little horn arises among the ten horns. The ten horns are the divisions of western Europe, so the little horn must arise in western Europe (7:8). Notice that these first two characteristics restrict the geographical location of the little horn to western Europe.

Click to expand...

Hi brakelite, sorry it's taken me a day or two to get back to this, I've been unwell.
I feel I must point out here that while scholarly consensus is that the fourth beast is most likely talking about Rome, when we look to scripture for the actual characteristics of the beast and the little horn, it does not actually tell us it is Rome or Europe.
So, while we may feel, especially in light of history, safe to label the fourth beast and even the legs and feet of the statue in Chapter 2 of Daniel as Rome, I feel I must caution rushing into any such assumptions when we come to Revelation.
Firstly, the fact that the beast in Rev 13 has components of horns, leopard, lion and bear makes us see a composite of all the 4 beasts of Daniel 7. If we are indeed still taking them to mean kingdoms, then in such a symbol laden book as Revelation we could very well be looking at an analogy that is telling us that all the Kingdoms of the world will stand against God and his people. We also know that at times Babylon is used figuratively to describe a city that is mans city, rather than God's city, which would be Jerusalem. The point is never actually about cities, but societies and nations; those opposed to God and those for him. Rome is also a symbol of a God-opposing city. How many Christian's perished in the colosseum there? When John wrote Revelation Rome was the center of persecution.

3.The little horn rises after the ten horns (7:24). According to historians, the ten horns were complete in the year 476 A. D., this also being the commonly accepted date for the final dissolution of the western portion of the Roman Empire, so this must mean that the little horn was to arise to power sometime after 476 A. D.

4. The little horn was to pluck up three of the first [ten] horns by the roots (7:8). This means that these three nations would be uprooted from history. Daniel 7:20-21 explains that three of the first horns would fall before the little horn, and Daniel 7:24 tells us that the little horn would subdue three horns. In other words, three of the first ten nations would disappear from history!!

5. The little horn was to speak great words against the Most High (7:21, 25). Revelation 13:5 explains what these words would be, namely, blasphemy. And, What is blasphemy according to the Bible? It is when a merely human power claims to be God on earth and when it thinks it can exercise the prerogatives and functions of God (see, John 10:30-33; Mark 2:7).

6. The little horn was to be a persecuting power. This is stated in Daniel 7:21 and repeated in verse 25.

7. The little horn would think it could change God’s “times”, that is to say, God’s timetable of prophetic events. (Daniel 2:21). We shall see that the little horn invented a false system of prophetic interpretation to rival historicism.

8. The little horn would even have the audacity to THINK that it could change God’s holy law. (7:25). This must of necessity be God's laws because political powers change secular human laws because every day... This power however seeks to change God's law... But of course can only think to accomplish this despite claiming to have in fact accomplished it... For no human institution or individual can change God's laws.

Click to expand...

You might need to explain a bit more to me about the changing of God's 'times and holy laws'...I'm not sure what you mean by that, thanks.
Otherwise, sure...all these other facts seem fairly straight forward, biblically.

9. The little horn would be different (diverse) than the other ten horns. It would be an amalgamation of church and state (7:24)

10. This power would govern for a time, times and half a time (7:25). This comes out to 42 months or 1260 days (see, Revelation 13:5-6; 12:6, 13-15). In Bible prophecy, literal days are symbolic of years, so this power was to govern in its initial stage for 1260 years, which explains how Paul could describe that power's imminent arrival, and at the same time be still here at the time of the second coming.

Click to expand...

Again, I'd probably just want to say that I see the idea that the "diverse" nature of the little horn being an amalgamation of Church and state is an assumption. Scripture doesn't really say that...just that it will not be like the others.

Also, my understanding of the 'time, times and half a time', or the 3 1/2 years in various listings, is purely symbolic. All numbers in apocalyptic writings are used in that way. We know that the number of 7 symbolizes perfection and completion. Therefore 3 1/2 is just never that. Always being cut short of perfection and completion. Usually in God's sovereignty. Thus we see that the AC is "given" this time. It is only what he is allowed.

11. The little horn had eyes like a man. In Bible Prophecy, eyes are a symbol of wisdom (see, Ephesians 1:18; Revelation 5:6). Even today, an owl is a symbol of wisdom because of its large eyes. In other words, this power was to depend on human wisdom, but also have at its head an individual spokesman.

Happy to explain more fully any of the above.

Click to expand...

I think eyes can also mean knowledge as well. We can fully expect this little horn to use every available resource at his fingertips to corral those around him. Info would be one of them.

brakelite said:

2Thess.. Isn't the only passage of scripture that describes the nature, character, actions, and tenure of the Antichrist. You can't just fixate on one text without harmonising it with all the others. Rather than settling on one concussion that says, Antichrist is destroyed at the second coming therefore must be in the future, ask yourself, is there a way in which the prophecy is presented that reveals the Antichrist as existing over a long period of time, beginning anciently and remaining to this day and into the future? Are there prophecies which reveal this? And the answer is yes.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure that I'm 'fixating' on 2 Thess 2 as 'the only text' that speaks about the Antichrist. I am pointing to it repeatedly in this case as I feel it raises a particular problem in your schema that I don't feel has been answered satisfactorily yet.
The reason being that Paul specifically links both the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness with the 'coming of the Day of the Lord'. That the restrainer will hold this man back until the time comes when he must remove this restraint so that he may go forth in false signs and wonders, and be slayed by the breath of Christ at his coming.
Now, I grant you there are other passages that speak of this man, and they too must be regarded when trying to ascertain who he might be, but a natural reading of 2 Thess 2 brings some trouble to the idea that the AC has actually been "unveiled" for close to 2000 years.
John also, when speaking of the Antichrist, would also have us understand that THE Antichrist is a last days event. Why else would he tell us that many antichrist have come, but to expect one final one? He then goes on to say that the characteristics of antichrist is to deny the father and the son.

So...I don't know. I'm seeing at this point the fact that you are pulling some 'certainties' out of apocalyptic texts that are not specifically stated, especially given they're apocalyptic texts, and not addressing the very clear intent of the clear texts. It's not usually a very good idea to start interpreting the didactic texts by the non-didactic ones.

In the statue if Daniel 2. The iron (Rome), mixed with clay is still there at the end to be destroyed.
I'm the fourth beast, the little horn which grows out of Rome (making it intrinsically a Roman horn) is also still there at the end to be judged.
The first beast of revelation is a composite beast... Comprising of all those beasts previously revealed in Daniel, all existing, including Rome, at the end to be destroyed and cast into the lake of fire.

Click to expand...

The problem I have with this is that there is just as much assumption that the 'last' kingdom of the iron and clay as well as the little horn must last centuries, as there is assumption that there must be a 'gap' between the last two kingdoms. Neither idea is specified in the text and must be read into. The only Kingdom in the text that we are told will be set up and then will continue to last indefinitely, is the Kingdom of God. Which Christ inaugurated at his coming.
And thus is my point: I just see too much assumption and guesswork on these texts based in Daniel and Revelation, and dismissal of the texts that actually give us something not based on imagery and allegory.

This is the historicist hermeneutic that views apocalyptic prophecy as beginning is fulfillment during the lifetime of the prophet and continues in an unbroken timeline through history until the end. Only by viewing project in this manner can we gauge with any accuracy where we are in relation to the end. The preterist thinks all prophecy is past, except the second coming... This has very little to observe by way of current events to discern where he is.
Futurism is no better off in that most prophecies for him is still future, but to gauge where he is now in the timeline must fit current events into his futurist scenario rather than looking into history and discovering the vast majority of prophecy was fulfilled in an ongoing sweep throughout time.
Harmonising Daniel, Thessalonians, John, and revelation, is not only essential, but a whole lot of fun when you finally see everything coming together in a wonderful perfect revelation of God's awesome knowledge wisdom and power.

Click to expand...

I have no issue with believing or reading scripture in light of an "Already, Not Yet" mindframe. But that hardly leads us to concluding Rome is the AC. It can lead us to John and Paul to say that Rome was a shadow and type of AC, just as we see all sorts of shadows and types throughout the OT.

Naomi25 said:

Hi brakelite, sorry it's taken me a day or two to get back to this, I've been unwell.
I feel I must point out here that while scholarly consensus is that the fourth beast is most likely talking about Rome, when we look to scripture for the actual characteristics of the beast and the little horn, it does not actually tell us it is Rome or Europe.
So, while we may feel, especially in light of history, safe to label the fourth beast and even the legs and feet of the statue in Chapter 2 of Daniel as Rome, I feel I must caution rushing into any such assumptions when we come to Revelation.
Firstly, the fact that the beast in Rev 13 has components of horns, leopard, lion and bear makes us see a composite of all the 4 beasts of Daniel 7. If we are indeed still taking them to mean kingdoms, then in such a symbol laden book as Revelation we could very well be looking at an analogy that is telling us that all the Kingdoms of the world will stand against God and his people. We also know that at times Babylon is used figuratively to describe a city that is mans city, rather than God's city, which would be Jerusalem. The point is never actually about cities, but societies and nations; those opposed to God and those for him. Rome is also a symbol of a God-opposing city. How many Christian's perished in the colosseum there? When John wrote Revelation Rome was the center of persecution.


You might need to explain a bit more to me about the changing of God's 'times and holy laws'...I'm not sure what you mean by that, thanks.
Otherwise, sure...all these other facts seem fairly straight forward, biblically.


Again, I'd probably just want to say that I see the idea that the "diverse" nature of the little horn being an amalgamation of Church and state is an assumption. Scripture doesn't really say that...just that it will not be like the others.

Also, my understanding of the 'time, times and half a time', or the 3 1/2 years in various listings, is purely symbolic. All numbers in apocalyptic writings are used in that way. We know that the number of 7 symbolizes perfection and completion. Therefore 3 1/2 is just never that. Always being cut short of perfection and completion. Usually in God's sovereignty. Thus we see that the AC is "given" this time. It is only what he is allowed.



I think eyes can also mean knowledge as well. We can fully expect this little horn to use every available resource at his fingertips to corral those around him. Info would be one
them.

Click to expand...

Sorry you've been unwell. If you're back, you're feeling better yes? Hope so.

So I've read both posts, and I think I can boil down your objections to this one idea. Because the prophecies don't specifically state certain aspects of the actual historical narrative, then we are justified in doubting them when we interpret them to meet certain historical events. So how are we to interpret prophetic literature of we cannot study history and consider the facts of history as an evidence of fulfillment?
The entire chapter of Matthew 25 is dedicated to Jesus speaking of His own coming again at a time of His Fathers choosing. The previous chapter Jesus was dealing with the expectations of His disciples regarding the coming of the 'kingdom'. They, along with every other Jew, were in full accord with the traditions and teachings handed down from generation to generation, expecting their Messiah to come and defeat their enemies, in the immediate context, Rome.
So Jesus, not for the first time, had to gently realign their hopes and expectations. So first, he dismantled their concept of an impending early kingdom with them at the head table, telling them that their previous temple and everything connected to it will be destroyed... Utterly. To the disciples, that was the end of the world. So they asked, when shall these things be, what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world? Jesus answered in such a way as not to destroy their hopes completely. He didn't tell them it would be 1000s of years away, yet for our sakes gave us signs and indications to when all these things would takes place. But Jesus did not expect us to be clairvoyants in predicting the future. He said elsewhere that the way to determine our place in the prophetic timeline was not to look to the future, but to the past. History. He said, ye shall see... Ye shall hear... Ye shall observe...
KJV Luke 21
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

KJV John 13
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

KJV John 14
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

It is when we have observed history to fulfill all that the prophets have said, then we know where we are. We are in expectation of the second coming because of what has taken place in the past... What we have in the past witnessed, and what we witness today. It is because of what has recently taken place, we can with some certainty understand in general terms what we can expect to come next.
But only those who watch... Only those who are willing to stand on the walls of the city and give the warning will be given the eyes to see and the ears to hear the signs of the times.
Jesus is coming again, and it is a fact that his coming has been delayed, as the parable of the ten virgins shows. Delayed not because he wasn't ready to come nor because it wasn't time, but because the church has been asleep. Many read that passage, and say, there is coming a time when the church will be asleep. But they cannot see that the church, and themselves, are asleep today.
They read 2 Thessalonians about the great apostasy. And predict, there is going to be a great apostasy. And ignore totally that the greatest apostasy in all history took place with the rise of the papacy and it is ongoing today.
Many read that there would an Antichrist, and say, there's going to be an Antichrist. They ignore history which shouts from blood soaked pages of centuries old eye witness accounts if prophetic fulfillment in the inspiring of the papacy, which in every single criteria has completely met the demands of prophecy.
Instead of accepting Christ's word, when these things come to pass, then you shall believe,t say these things are yet to come to pass and we thus believe. For some reason which totally escapes me, people believe a future individual can meet all the criteria already met by the papacy. How is that even possible? How can a future individual uproot the powers that grew from the fourth kingdom? And as you said, to place a gap between the third and fourth kingdoms is understand unwarranted, therefore the fourth kingdom follows chronologically from the third yes?
What other kingdom other than pagan Rome arose after Greece?
What other kingdom incorporated into its own belief systems the Babylonian, Persian and Greek pagan cultures ensuring their continuing development to what we witness today within Roman Catholicism?
What other kingdom divided into separate kingdoms but was not conquered?
What other kingdom sequentially followed Greece?
What other kingdom had such powerful influence over God's people that it has endured for over 2000 years? Was there another kingdom we should be looking to that God thought more important? Had more effect upon Christianity than pagan Rome? What other kingdom other than pagan Rome brought about the great apostasy spoken of by Paul?
What other kingdom other than pagan Rome changed its direction of influence in the middle of its growth from flat lining is neighbours horizontally, to vertically assaulting heaven?
KJV Daniel 8
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
And there are many more texts throughout prophecy that can point only to pagan Rome and the subsequent development of the papacy, through the witness of history, seeing these things coming to pass, that cannot possibly be fulfilled in the future.
A Roman individual? Rome to futurists minds doesn't even exist except it be revived. Where in prophecy does it even intimate a revival of Rome? It has never left!
History Naomi is more reliable... More biblically sound... Than clairvoyant prognosticators guessing without any facts and cherry picking at scriptures to fit their imaginative fortune telling. History, things that have come to pass, are the only sound infallible witness to prophecy.

Oh my goodness. Sorry about the long tome.

brakelite said:

History Naomi is more reliable... More biblically sound... Than clairvoyant prognosticators guessing without any facts and cherry picking at scriptures to fit their imaginative fortune telling. History, things that have come to pass, are the only sound infallible witness to prophecy.

Click to expand...

But the historical record simply does not relate to the Prophetic Word.
Almost the entire Book of Revelation is yet to happen, commencing with the Sixth Seal world changer that will set the scene for the establishment of an actual World Government.
Daniel 7:23, proves that this forth kingdom will encompass the whole earth, with a powerful and pervasive rule. It isn't a religious system as the RCC is, but later the dictator leader will demand worship of himself. Something that even the Pope doesn't do.

I know that a prophecy has to be proved true by its fulfilment.
However; forcing a fulfilment onto prophecy, events that seem to fit, that have some things in common, but don't literally match, is a serious mistake.
So until Jesus does Return, we must continue to look for a full and final completion of all that the prophets have told us, Bible prophesies of dramatic events, told to us in great detail and often in the past tense to reinforce its certain fulfilment.

People who wish to make the prophesies into past events, simply leave themselves in the dark, 1 Thess 5:1-6, and unprepared for all that we are so clearly told will happen in the end times.

brakelite said:

Sorry you've been unwell. If you're back, you're feeling better yes? Hope so.

So I've read both posts, and I think I can boil down your objections to this one idea. Because the prophecies don't specifically state certain aspects of the actual historical narrative, then we are justified in doubting them when we interpret them to meet certain historical events. So how are we to interpret prophetic literature of we cannot study history and consider the facts of history as an evidence of fulfillment?

Click to expand...

Hi brakelite...half over it then, all over it now, thanks!
So...while yes, you might be able to say that one of my 'boiled down' objections is that the prophecies lack the sort of specificity that allows us to place our finger directly on historical narratives with 100% certainty...I would also have to say that the other 'boiled down' objection I have with pointing at the RCC is that we also see many of the prophecies pointing towards a future fulfillment. So...ultimately what we have is something in the past that can only be 'assumed' as being a fulfillment, and something in the future that, quite honestly, you are just guessing at, because it hasn't happened yet.

Now, I am aware, of course, that you claim that the RCC is the best possible fit of the past prophecies for the AC. But yours is not the only claim that must be considered. Joel Richardson, who I don't always agree with but is a decent researcher and good man, I feel, wrote a book putting forth a claim for an Islamic AC. He makes a decent claim for the Islamic Caliphate actually fitting the boundaries found in Daniel 7 as the last beast much better than either the Roman Empire or the RCC. I don't know that I have an opinion either way, but my point is this: while valid claims that remain more or less faithful to scriptural interpretation exist, one must move carefully forward in terms of assumption. Building a house of cards on any such assumption is not, I feel, a wise move.

The entire chapter of Matthew 25 is dedicated to Jesus speaking of His own coming again at a time of His Fathers choosing. The previous chapter Jesus was dealing with the expectations of His disciples regarding the coming of the 'kingdom'. They, along with every other Jew, were in full accord with the traditions and teachings handed down from generation to generation, expecting their Messiah to come and defeat their enemies, in the immediate context, Rome.

Click to expand...

I would, perhaps, just insert here, that Matthew 24 is not just solely dealing with Christ's teachings on t he coming of the 'Kingdom'. The Disciples had asked when the Temple would be destroyed as well. They clearly believed that such an event would either herald or be in conjunction with the coming of Christ and the 'end of the age'. Christ's answer was in line with that of the OT prophets and the 'prophetic foreshortening' we see from them. He discussed both the events of the Temples destruction and his return in the same discourse, often switching back and forth between the two.
But yeah...I agree, the expectation of the time was that the "Messiah" would arrive and set up a kingdom that would kick out the worldly powers...and for them, that was Rome.

So Jesus, not for the first time, had to gently realign their hopes and expectations. So first, he dismantled their concept of an impending early kingdom with them at the head table, telling them that their previous temple and everything connected to it will be destroyed... Utterly. To the disciples, that was the end of the world. So they asked, when shall these things be, what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world? Jesus answered in such a way as not to destroy their hopes completely. He didn't tell them it would be 1000s of years away, yet for our sakes gave us signs and indications to when all these things would takes place. But Jesus did not expect us to be clairvoyants in predicting the future. He said elsewhere that the way to determine our place in the prophetic timeline was not to look to the future, but to the past. History. He said, ye shall see... Ye shall hear... Ye shall observe...
KJV Luke 21
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

KJV John 13
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

KJV John 14
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Click to expand...

Ah...actually, I beg to differ...I do not believe these verses tell us to "look to the past for the answers", especially in terms of 'where we are in the prophetic timeline.

Luke 21:28 is speaking of the return of Christ. It's speaking of the huge, incredible, cosmic disturbances that will take place immediately preceding his return. This is so when terrifying events happen in the sky and all the world fear the end of it, we, as children of God, can lift up our heads and know...'this is not the end'!
Luke 21:31 likewise is a 'mini-parable' explaining that we who have eyes, we who have read scripture, can understand when we see these incredible, world-shaking events, we know 'summer is near'. There are just some events that people cannot ignore, and I would say that the events spoken of by our Lord in the paragraph before that is as about as "when you see these things taking place, then you know..." as you can get.
Luke 21:36. I honestly don't believe this is saying we need to "look to the past to learn where we are on the timeline". It's telling us that in the great upheaval of the end of the world, we are to be watching always for our Lords return, praying that in the chaos that ensues we keep our eyes only on him and are called upwards to stand before him before 'falling asleep'.
John 13:19 is Jesus speaking in large towards servant-hood and how we should consider ourselves, but in particular he is letting the disciples know in advance about Judas, that he knew about him; indeed that Judas himself was fulfilling scripture when he 'lifted his heel against him'. I still cannot see how, however, this tells us where on the prophetic timeline we are.
John 14:39...again. I think I see where you're going with this....scripture has moment where it does, indeed tell us that "this is to fulfill such and such" or "I tell you in advance so that you may know". The problem with this is: these examples you have given are specifics of other topics, mostly about Christ himself or by Christ himself, not the prophetic timeline. And to my knowledge, the only mention scripture gives to the 'timeline', is that no man will know, only the Father in heaven. That is fairly specific.

brakelite said:

It is when we have observed history to fulfill all that the prophets have said, then we know where we are. We are in expectation of the second coming because of what has taken place in the past... What we have in the past witnessed, and what we witness today. It is because of what has recently taken place, we can with some certainty understand in general terms what we can expect to come next.

Click to expand...

But, this helps us...how? We can say that there needs to happen certain things: increased wickedness, the last AC, the 'rebellion', Christ's triumphant return. But there is nothing that tells us when that could happen. Indeed, there are things that tell us we cannot know when this will happen. So, in a sense, we are like the Jewish people in the intertestamental period, waiting for a Messiah but not knowing when he would come. We, like they, can know he will come, but this show is all on God's timing, not our own. We stay wakeful, watching, praying, but that's about all we can do.

But only those who watch... Only those who are willing to stand on the walls of the city and give the warning will be given the eyes to see and the ears to hear the signs of the times.
Jesus is coming again, and it is a fact that his coming has been delayed, as the parable of the ten virgins shows. Delayed not because he wasn't ready to come nor because it wasn't time, but because the church has been asleep. Many read that passage, and say, there is coming a time when the church will be asleep. But they cannot see that the church, and themselves, are asleep today.

Click to expand...

Maybe the Western Church is asleep, but we do keep forgetting that we don't make up the whole Church. The rest of the Church? It's sort of alive and thriving today. Suffering, yes, but vibrant regardless.

They read 2 Thessalonians about the great apostasy. And predict, there is going to be a great apostasy. And ignore totally that the greatest apostasy in all history took place with the rise of the papacy and it is ongoing today.

Click to expand...

Again, I find a statement like that hard to qualify and quantify. Really? The worst apostasy in "all" history? Well, where are the numbers? The percentages? How can you possibly know how bad it's going to get in the future? You can't, therefore it seems rather...presumptuous to make such a claim.

Many read that there would an Antichrist, and say, there's going to be an Antichrist. They ignore history which shouts from blood soaked pages of centuries old eye witness accounts if prophetic fulfillment in the inspiring of the papacy, which in every single criteria has completely met the demands of prophecy.

Click to expand...

And as terrifying and sickening as such history is, it's not alone. As history marches on men excel at killing one another over religion, over ideology. Christians are the most martyred and persecuted people on the face of the planet. And as populations swell so to do the numbers of Christians slaughtered for their faith.
So, what I would ask is, again, how do you quantify the 'blood soaked' nature of the papacy against any other regime or belief system? By numbers, location, time period, religious beliefs? Because it's all well and good to keep repeating that the 'papacy' meets all the criteria of these prophecies, but I'm still unsure I've seen any such proof or persuasion of such.

Instead of accepting Christ's word, when these things come to pass, then you shall believe,t say these things are yet to come to pass and we thus believe. For some reason which totally escapes me, people believe a future individual can meet all the criteria already met by the papacy. How is that even possible? How can a future individual uproot the powers that grew from the fourth kingdom? And as you said, to place a gap between the third and fourth kingdoms is understand unwarranted, therefore the fourth kingdom follows chronologically from the third yes?

Click to expand...

Except, there's not a single thing to link Christ's words to the Papacy. At all. He's speaking about the coming of the Holy Spirit, and the betrayal of Judas.
And, as I've said before, maybe it "escapes us" because all we're seeing is a pointy finger pointed in an accusatory manner at the RCC with not much chop to back it up. And I'm not even a RCC supporter. But to be honest, I sort of expected something more, and I just haven't seen it, I'm sorry. Not yet, at least.
As far as 'the gap' goes, yes, I agree, it's not a good exegetical practice to just wack in a gap. We may, I suppose, allow some warring back and forth and societal upheaval, but there seems no real reason to skip over real and obvious 'nations, powers or systems' to land, arbitrarily, on something in the distant future that just 'happens' to fit your theological system.
However, if one is assuming it 'has to be' the RCC based on this faulty premise alone, we are right back at poor exegesis. We can cast reasonable doubt upon that by again looking towards Joel Richardson's thesis; Islam rose relatively early and began making a name for itself. Again, I don't support or decry either view, I'm just saying we mustn't automatically land in one spot just because we feel there is nothing else.

What other kingdom other than pagan Rome arose after Greece?

Click to expand...

Okay, good...these questions are more helpful. And they help shine a light on why I'm cautious to throw labels about. For example:
Dan 2:40 tells us that the 4th Kingdom (which people usually assume to be Rome), breaks and crushes the 3 other kingdoms under it's feet. And we see another almost identical verse in Dan 7:23. However, first, we know that Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece didn't exist at the same time, so the 'crushing' must refer to the territories, rather than the kingdoms. The problem here is that Roman Empire only conquered about 1/3 of the regions controlled by these other 3 empires. Which means, roughly 2/3 of the regions that were under the control of these 3 other kingdoms, were left completely untouched by Rome. Rome never even reached two Persian capital cites: Ecbatana and Persepolis. That's a little...ah...un-trampl-y to my mind. That would be like trying to say that if China came down and took over the NT that they had "captured and trampled Australia". Nope. Not really.

brakelite said:

What other kingdom incorporated into its own belief systems the Babylonian, Persian and Greek pagan cultures ensuring their continuing development to what we witness today within Roman Catholicism?

Click to expand...

Mmmm. This might be one of those where you need to do more work to convince me. Did the Roman Empire welcome pagan beliefs into their "empire" as long as homage was paid to the Emperor as well? Sure. But, two things: I'm not sure that's proof positive that we see that in the RCC. And, well, do we see that in the Daniel texts? Daniel tells us that the 4th beast had "great iron teeth, it devoured and broke into pieces..." to me that does NOT sound like a system or entity that welcomes other beliefs. To me, that sounds like Richardson would be correct in HIS summation of Islam...that which destroys all in it's path and rejects anything not its own. And we know, of course, how much of a 'nation-builder' Rome was. Many didn't mind be 'conquered' by Rome. It bought progress and stability. Roads, commerce, law. But Islam? Islam burns and pulls down, rapes and pillages all who dare object...and many who even agree.

What other kingdom divided into separate kingdoms but was not conquered?
What other kingdom sequentially followed Greece?
What other kingdom had such powerful influence over God's people that it has endured for over 2000 years? Was there another kingdom we should be looking to that God thought more important? Had more effect upon Christianity than pagan Rome? What other kingdom other than pagan Rome brought about the great apostasy spoken of by Paul?

Click to expand...

Golly...I'm starting to sound like a Joel Richardson apologetic, and while that's not my intent, I must admit he has some good points. I...I'm not really trying to argue FOR his view, but I do believe it to be a solid argument for a Christian to consider, thus I present it as I believe it casts enough doubt on "there can be only one evident choice" that you claim. If that makes sense.
The Islamic Caliphate...the nations, have not been conquered, but by golly they are not 'one kingdom'. There was strife and division amongst them as soon as Muhammad died. There are different factions of Muslims that fight against one another, each claiming their right of truth. And while they have not had "influence" over Christianity in the way I think you mean, do you think the RCC has killed more of us than they have? Threatened horrific torture and ruin unless renouncing Christ? Not just protestantism, but Christ.
And, interestingly enough, the statue with legs of "iron mixed with clay". Did you know that the Aramaic word 'mix' is 'arab? Interesting, huh?

What other kingdom other than pagan Rome changed its direction of influence in the middle of its growth from flat lining is neighbours horizontally, to vertically assaulting heaven?
KJV Daniel 8
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Click to expand...

Yeah, sorry...I don't understand what you mean at all by "flat-lining its neighbours to vertically assaulting heaven". You might need to spell it out a little more, thanks.

And there are many more texts throughout prophecy that can point only to pagan Rome and the subsequent development of the papacy, through the witness of history, seeing these things coming to pass, that cannot possibly be fulfilled in the future.
A Roman individual? Rome to futurists minds doesn't even exist except it be revived. Where in prophecy does it even intimate a revival of Rome? It has never left!
History Naomi is more reliable... More biblically sound... Than clairvoyant prognosticators guessing without any facts and cherry picking at scriptures to fit their imaginative fortune telling. History, things that have come to pass, are the only sound infallible witness to prophecy.

Click to expand...

The problem remains. I see speculation based upon the fact that some history looks good. The problem, as I've tried to spend this post pointing out, is; history has to do more than look a little good. When other historical events or people can fit just as well, then 'evidence' just becomes personal preference. And I'm afraid I've seen more personal preference here than historical fact. I've seen some good questions, but those questions were not answered sufficiently, they left holes. Enough holes that I just cannot find weight behind the claim that the RCC HAS to be, MUST be, what you claim it to be.

Naomi25 said:

Enough holes that I just cannot find weight behind the claim that the RCC HAS to be, MUST be, what you claim it to be.

Click to expand...

Okay. First, please accept my commendation for persevering with this, and answering so comprehensively. Most, no, all others with whom I have engaged in this topic would have long before resorted to ad hominem... Flown the coop... Or dispersed. So, well done for sticking it out.
The Islam angle is not an unpopular theory. What makes it more fascinating is the actual historical connections in its development with Rome. The Catholic Rome. But we need not go there for the moment, but allow me to remind you of the essential meaning of that word, Antichrist. And remind you also of a post I previously offered, here.... Post number 38, giving a precise picture of how the Antichrist is a substitute, or more definitively, a counterfeit of the true Christ.
You do not get counterfeit $99 bills. Islam is not a counterfeit... It isn't even close to Christianity in any way, shape, or form. With all due respect to Mr Richardson, I am sure he is a very nice well meaning man, but he is looking at the Antichrist only from the perspective of being an opposer of Christianity... And ignoring the how, which is by substitution through deception.
Secondly, my post number 32 offers ten specific characteristics of the Antichrist. Go through them please and see if you can explain how Islam meets those criteria.

Hello

It seems to me that people are trying to link the manifestations of the wicked fallen heavenly host beasts as the beasts of Daniel 7. It is my understanding that the manifestations of the four beats are not the respective fallen heavenly hosts/beasts. The manifestations of the beasts only inhabit the respective beasts dominions and the manifestations ebb and flow over the historical time map as various people groups, nations, empires chose to inhabit the respective dominions of the beasts. I was presenting this argument of the manifestations over 10 years ago, as it best explained for me how the manifested beasts disappear at particular points in history and then rematerialize at another point along the historical timeline for a time before vanishing once more into oblivion by falling off the timeline of history.

This is Joel Richardson's downfall, and he has written many books along this line and moved his goal posts accordingly as to his conclusions as to what manifestation of the "beasts" of Daniel 7 is representative of his understanding of the End time scenarios.

The SDA manifesto of the manifestations of the "beasts," the wicked fallen heavenly hosts, manifesting as the RCC, are no better than Joel's, but they created this argument/understanding that Joel is presently trying to hang his hat on so to speak as the basis of their manifesto of their end time understanding. Sadly, the SDA have created way points in history on which they base their "theory" on, but their way points will cause their ship to flounder on the rocks of their misunderstanding and be considered insignificant by the "profit" Sayers of this present time on the End Times money making industries.

Am I any better with the theories that I hold onto? Probably not, but my research data so far has not let me down, so far.

Shalom

While I feel obliged first to discount Islam, I believe it also incumbent upon me to offer more evidence to support my perspective of the Roman church as the only real viable candidate. That is what I shall now do by going into much more detail as to how Rome meets those 11 or so criteria in post 32. Beginning with why pagan Rome is the fourth beast of Daniel 7. And the iron legs of Daniel 2.

The image of Daniel 2 sets the foundation for every subsequent vision and prophecy from Daniel to Revelation. What God has set down as His word in Daniel 2 cannot be altered to suit one’s false theories when it comes to studying Revelation. All subsequent prophecies are to be studied on the principle of ‘repeat and enlarge’. That is, once Daniel 2 is understood, any further consideration of later visions must be based on Daniel 2, only with the addition of further detail. Daniel 2 sets the scene, everything else must fit into what Daniel 2 has laid down as the bottom line.

That said, let us settle on what nearly all Bible scholars agree as to what Daniel 2 represents.
Daniel 2:30-45.
The head of gold is clearly identified as the kingdom of Babylon (626-539BC) in verse 38. From history we know that the other 3 kingdoms following Babylon were Media-Persia (539-331BC), Greece (331-168BC) , and Rome (168BC-476AD). Although the Roman empire ruled longer than the other 3 kingdoms put together, it was not succeeded by a fifth world power but was divided up into kingdoms of varying strength, symbolised by the feet of iron and clay, just as the prophecy predicted. These are the nations that make up modern Europe, nations that, to this day, exist as separate national political entities.

The Bible makes it plain that the stone represents Jesus Christ (Isa. 28:16; 1 Cor. 10:4; Luke 20:17,18.) Who at His second advent will destroy all the other kingdoms and establish an everlasting kingdom.

Daniel 7 and 8 compliment one another, and give added impetus and detail to Daniel 2. I will deal with both 7 and 8 together, in order to make it easier to see the parallels.
Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings:….

Here is the first beast representing the first of 4 world empires, Babylon, as also revealed as the head of gold in Daniel 2. Another very sound principle when interpreting scripture, is to take all scripture language literally, unless there exists some good reason for supposing it to be figurative; and all that is figurative is to be interpreted by that which is literal. That the language here is symbolic is evident when considering verse 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
That the intention is to show kingdoms and not just individual kings is also evident by the appearance of beasts. Much as modern nations do today, U.S. the eagle; Russia the bear; N.Z. the Kiwi; Aust. the wallaby.etc. Verses 38 and 39 reveal that the first kingdom is Babylon, which rose to power through war and conquest. When Daniel mentioned in verse 2 the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea, this is symbolic language representing war and strife amongst nations. (Rev.17:15; Isaiah 17:12,13; Jer. 51:1; Jer. 25:32,33.)
[/i]
It is to be noted that all the beasts are predatory, in keeping with the above symbolism. And the wings it can be assumed represent speed. (Deut. 28:49; Jer. 4:13; Habakkuk 1:6-9).
The wings were plucked from the lion, thus no longer was it the threat it formerly offered to her enemies. A man’s heart was given to it. Babylon in later years had become timorous, effeminate, and a pleasure seeking society without discipline.

Daniel 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Daniel 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Daniel 8:20 identifies the ram as being Medo-Persia, thus the ram and the bear represent the same power. The bear raised itself up on one side – indicating the more prominent role of the Medes at the beginning of their rise to power, the individual kings being Ahasuerus and his son, Darius.This is also represented by the two horns, with one coming up higher last.
Just as silver is inferior to gold, and the bear inferior to the lion, so was Medo-Persia inferior to Babylon in regards to wealth and brilliance of career. However, the area of conquest was greater than Babylon.
The ribs in the bear’s mouth represent the 3 provinces of Babylon that the Medes and Persians conquered: Lydia, Egypt, and Babylon. The ram pushed west, north, and south, precisely where the 3 above provinces were.
Cyrus was the Persian king that rose to prominence represented by the horn that rose up higher. It was Cyrus spoken of and named 150 years previously by Isaiah as the leader that would overthrow Babylon. (There are many parallels with Revelation and the drying up of the Euphrates thus cutting off Babylon’s support in the last days, just as Cyrus did to the literal city. This is spiritual Babylon, and the Euphrates is also figurative for the means of support that the people of the earth withhold (Rev.18)when made aware of her corruption.Rev. 16:12 . As Cyrus came from the east to conquer Babylon, so also will Christ come from the east as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.)

Daniel 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Daniel 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

The leopard represents Greece, and Alexander the Great is the first king, the ‘notable’ horn between the goat’s eyes.
As Babylon was noted for her speed of conquest, so Alexander even more so, hence the 4 wings. At the height of his power Alexander died, some say of alcohol poisoning, at the young age of about 30. The Grecian kingdom was then ruled briefly by Alexander’s brother and his 2 infant sons, but they were all soon murdered and after 22 years of warring and infighting among a number of generals who had all dispersed to various parts of the empire and assumed authority and declared themselves kings, the number was reduced to just 4, as depicted by the 4 heads of the leopard and the four horns of the goat. The generals were Cassander, Seleucus, Ptolemy, and Lysimachus.
It will be noted that as the ram (Medo-Persia) in Daniel 8:4 is shown to have become great, so the goat (Greece) in Daniel 8:8 ‘waxed very great’. In area conquered this was very true; Greece had overcome vastly more area than had the previous empire, however, just as the leopard is inferior to the bear, and bronze is inferior to silver, so the character of the empire was inferior to Medo-Persia. Paganism was developing among these empires and growing as they grew. Each empire also inherited certain traits, traditions, and practices from it’s predecessors. Thus each kingdom grew progressively worse morally and spiritually.

Before I deal with the horn of the goat, I’d like to briefly recap on something from the image of Daniel 2 and stress something that is very important.
What we know of the image is that there are just 4 kingdoms or empires from the beginning of Babylon to the second coming. These four are destroyed by the rock of Christ at His coming.
That means 2 things.
1. That in some form or another they are in existence today (all four!), and will be until Jesus comes.
How do I know this? By the beast that rises from the sea in Revelation 13. (And remember beasts are kingdoms). In this beast there is a remnant of each of the 4 beasts we see here in Daniel. And it is that particular beast that is destroyed and thrown into the lake of fire. This can be easily explained by the fact that the pagan belief system of Babylon was inherited by all the following powers, was developed further and will be perfected into a Christian counterfeit at the end that will deceive most of the world. But more on that later.
2. The iron begins from the victory over the Greeks, and continues unbroken (albeit in another form) right to the end. In other words, there is no gap in history- no “revived” Roman empire that is yet to come. Rome is still with us today, there has never been any full or conclusive end to the Roman empire as yet.

To continue with the goat of Daniel 8. We have discovered that the goat represented Greece, that the great horn was it’s first king, Alexander, and that when he died , after some conflict and debate, 4 kings ruled in his stead.


8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

There are however a total of six horns that grow out of the he-goat , and it is to the 6th that we will now focus our attention.
This ‘little horn’ was to exceed the greatness of all the preceding horns. Media/Persia “became great” (Daniel 8:4); The he-goat itself was to wax “very great”, (Daniel 8:8), but this little horn was to grow and become “exceeding great”.( Daniel 8:9). It is claimed by many, in fact it has almost become standard belief in modern Christian thought, that Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by this little horn. This is based solely on his persecution of the Jews and the desecration of the temple, as is presumed to have taken place upon a reading of the ensuing verses. The problem however is that Antiochus does not meet the requirements of any other specific in the prophecy. (Some refer to him as being the fulfilment of the little horn that grows out of the fourth beast in Daniel 7 also.)
This is particularly popular with the preterist position, but to insist upon this understanding is to wrest the scripture from it’s historical setting, for an important point to note is that the 4th beast reaches to the end of time, and is destroyed at the second coming. The view that Antiochus is the little horn restricts the entire book of Daniel to the period of time before Christianity was established.

Let me in detail give my reasons why I believe Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 7.
a. Antiochus does not rise after 10 kings. He was the 8th king in the Syrian line of Seleucid kings. Besides, the prophecy calls for 10 kingdoms to exist contemporaneously, not successively.
b. Antiochus belonged to the 3rd empire (Greece) in actual historical sequence from Daniel’s time.
c. He was not ‘diverse’ from any other king.
d. He did not ‘pluck up’ 3 other kings.
e. He was not ‘stouter’ than his fellows. His father was known as Antiochus the Great, not Epiphanes.
f. He did not prevail until the end of time, the judgment.
g. The kingdom following was Rome, not the kingdom of the saints.

Reasons why Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 8.
a. Antiochus was not a horn in his own right. He was of the Seleucid line therefore was a part of one of the four.
b. He did not wax exceeding great. In fact his father was greater, but neither was as great as even Babylon or Media Persia, certainly no greater than Alexander. Yet the prophecy demands that the little horn be greater than any empire before it.
c. He does not fit the time periods. According to Maccabees 1:54,59, and 4:52 Antiochus suppressed the sacrifices exactly 3 years. This fits neither the 1260 days , (times time and half a time,) nor the 2300 days (evenings and mornings of Daniel 8:14). These figures do not compliment one another NOR do they meet the reign of Antiochus.
d. The 2300 days is prophetic. Using the day/year principle established elsewhere as being the standard and norm for interpreting prophetic time periods, it is a literal 2300 years.

Therefore,
And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

can only refer to the empire of Rome, and thus is the Daniel 8 parallel to not just the 4th beast of Daniel 7…
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

… but also the iron legs of the statue of Daniel 2. See how each prophecy repeats and enlarges upon the preceding prophecy?

The dragon beast represents the Roman empire (168 B. C. – 476 A. D.). This empire came to be known as the “iron monarchy of Rome” (Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. 4, p. 161). The ten horns represent the ten kingdoms into which the Roman Empire was divided when it fell apart. These ten kingdoms, according to Edward
Gibbon, were: The Alemanni, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Vandals, the Suevi, the Visigoths, the Saxons, the Ostrogoths, the Lombards and the Heruli (see, M. H. Brown, The Sure Word of Prophecy, pp. 54, 55).
“The historian Machiavel, without the slightest reference to this prophecy, gives the following list of the nations which occupied the territory of the Western Empire at the time of the fall of Romulus Augustulus [476 A. D], the last emperor of Rome: The Lombards, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Ostrogoths, the Visigoths, the Vandals, the Heruli, the Sueves, the Huns, and
the Saxons: ten in all.” (H. Grattan Guinness, The Divine Program of the World’s History, p. 318).
Already in the fourth century, Jerome had spoken of the fragmentation of the Roman Empire in the following terms:
“Moreover the fourth kingdom, which plainly pertains to the Romans, is the iron which breaks in pieces and subdues all things. But its feet and toes are partly of iron and partly of clay, which at this time [note that Jerome was living when this was happening] is most plainly attested. For just as in its beginning nothing was stronger and more unyielding than the Roman Empire, so at the end of its affairs nothing is weaker.” (Jerome, Commentary on Daniel, comments on 2:40, column 504). In the days when Jerome lived, the Roman Empire was coming apart. The barbarian tribes from the north had descended upon the empire with a vengeance and broke it up into the nations which today constitute western Europe.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.



Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Remember, that the little horn in Daniel 8:9 is different from the little horn of Daniel 7:8. The one in Daniel 8:9 represents the empire of pagan Rome. It is the parallel symbol of the dragon beast with the ten horns and iron teeth that rises from the sea. However, in Daniel 8:10 can be seen a change in the practice of the little horn from being one that “waxed exceeding great” on a horizontal plane to one that then “waxed great” on a vertical plane. Rome at first operated as a secular pagan entity. But here we see a change in her nature to a religious entity in that she began to attack the things of God and spiritual truths that pertain to heaven.
The little horn of Daniel 7:8, which grows out of the Roman empire
amongst the former ten horns and uproots 3 of them, is also an entity which has aspirations of a more heavenly nature.

Daniel 7:9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

We see here that the duration of this little horn does not end until the judgment. So it endures right up to the second coming, therefore is with us today. There are also much more written on this little horn. There is in fact more detail given concerning this horn than on any of the other beasts together. Thus it is abundantly clear that in His love and mercy God desires that we know who and what this entity is for it is clearly a threat to our spiritual welfare.

brakelite said:

While I feel obliged first to discount Islam, I believe it also incumbent upon me to offer more evidence to support my perspective of the Roman church as the only real viable candidate. That is what I shall now do by going into much more detail as to how Rome meets those 11 or so criteria in post 32. Beginning with why pagan Rome is the fourth beast of Daniel 7. And the iron legs of Daniel 2.

Click to expand...

Sadly, you have left out the prophecies in Jer 50 and Rev 16, which have a profound bearing on our interpretation of Daniel 2, in your evidence above, which tells us very clearly that the Roman Empire is not the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 statue prophecy.

Around the year 250 BC, Babylon was denuded of its utilities and its people for a period of just over 2,000 years, and was not inhabited again permanently until Britain and France divided up the middle east after World War One with the establishment of Iraq as the recognised nation over the land area of Babylon.

This understanding of the scriptures all comes down to interpretation of the scriptures and sadly many of the keys to understanding the prophecies in scriptures, are hidden from view by the adopted traditions of Christendom which have come from the prior Jewish traditions and understandings before Christ of the Old Testament.

The SDA theories were established prior to the 20th centaury when the above events took place and they are therefore ignoring the recent historical records of the last centaury which clearly shows the establishment of a new nation having dominion over the ancient land of Babylon.

People like to quote history as their main stay as proof for what they claim, but if recent historical facts are ignored, then their argument in support of their position is flawed.

Shalom

brakelite said:

Okay. First, please accept my commendation for persevering with this, and answering so comprehensively. Most, no, all others with whom I have engaged in this topic would have long before resorted to ad hominem... Flown the coop... Or dispersed. So, well done for sticking it out.

Click to expand...

Well, I invited the discussion, so it would be disingenuous of me to then bail.

The Islam angle is not an unpopular theory. What makes it more fascinating is the actual historical connections in its development with Rome. The Catholic Rome. But we need not go there for the moment, but allow me to remind you of the essential meaning of that word, Antichrist. And remind you also of a post I previously offered, here.... Post number 38, giving a precise picture of how the Antichrist is a substitute, or more definitively, a counterfeit of the true Christ.
You do not get counterfeit $99 bills. Islam is not a counterfeit... It isn't even close to Christianity in any way, shape, or form. With all due respect to Mr Richardson, I am sure he is a very nice well meaning man, but he is looking at the Antichrist only from the perspective of being an opposer of Christianity... And ignoring the how, which is by substitution through deception.
Secondly, my post number 32 offers ten specific characteristics of the Antichrist. Go through them please and see if you can explain how Islam meets those criteria.

Click to expand...

Please keep in mind that I don't support the "Islam angle". I have come across it and have a passing familiarity with it, but am truly not, by any standards, an expert in the theory. Therefore it might be hard to weigh everything by it. I will, of course, go and have a look at your other post. But, as my previous post inferred, the reason I bring up the 'Islam angle' is for this reasons:
If you make a claim that 'only pagan Rome' can fit into what is admittedly an apocalyptic and somewhat vague imagery, then it needs to nail down every single aspect to the exclusion of every other possible entity. The 'Islam angle' puts, I think, that claim in question just by its existence.

There is, of course, my other concern that looks to the future fulfillment of AC. And the fact that unless a person claims clairvoyance, once cannot simply know how anything will turn out...even the RCC. The RCC could buckle under the weight of the sexual abuse scandal in the next two years. Only God knows. That's my point.

However, I will go and have a look at that other post about the AC and answer as best I can.