We wouldn't know as Adam was in a state of innocence not knowing good and evil. It is not clear if we will have that state in eternity.
True Human Being?
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If a person became truly conscious of the innermost being, would they not become a True Human Being?
jshiii
Well-Known Member
At work, just as I walk in to one of my patient's rooms. After a minute or two, I have heard from my patient or their family, multiple patients, over the last couple of years...."I sensed the spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ in You (Me)." Interestingly, before they make that comment, I have already sensed Christ in them, even Christ in the same room with us (Where 2 are gathered....). It's such a blessing to walk into a room with a patient who believes in Christ. I have walked into rooms where I felt cold, smelly stinch (poop), dark spirits....this is what I hate most about my job. For some reason, I never smell the stinch of poop in a believer's room.....even if they are a GI Bleed.
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The Hebrew word for life in humans is "Hayim"....or lives in the plural. That means we are to have faculties in two dimensions : we have animal carnal senses in order to be in this world and experience that... AND (at least when we walk in the Spirit) we have spiritual senses that cause us to walk in God's realm of the kingdom.
Animals never have "hayim" life in the bible. They are just alive in the singularity of this life. So then when we are carnal...we are relying basically on the animal life. And this is not enough to be a fully human being. We were created to have more faculties than that. We were created to have a life with God. Jesus Christ brings to God in that we can enter INTO Christ who is with God. As such we regain the eternal portion of life through Him.
It was Jung that said that in order to be enlightened we must first pass through hell.
Acts 14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
If enlightenment was easy then more people would be so. But of course very few can see beyond the seeming limitation of the human mind and heart. Most lack the faith, need and courage to break free of their carnal lives. There is a price to pay...and that is to give up everything that is familiar in order to live.
I see that we live in a bubble with a gravitational force that keeps us in the carnal state. As we attempt to break free of that gravitational pull we find the pain increases...the hell seeks to impede our progress. But by faith...if we persist with an all out effort...God pulls us into His kingdom by His grace so that we are free from this world so to be attached to Him. In Him all things are then possible for us.
Well, if true, I stand to be corrected then.
I personally think that wisdom will be the real test, as many placebos can give people a false sense of peace, ...and maybe this is what others are detecting?
Either way, I can neither prove or disprove your testimony, and can only hope that what you're saying is valid for all the right reasons.
Still, I've heard too many claim about their endowment of the Holy Spirit, and I've heard nothing but nonsense proceed from their mouth when it comes to exegeting scripture?
Nancy
Well-Known Member
I can relate, the last 23 years of my working life was working with patients in their hospital rooms every day. there is something about their spirit that exudes the love of Christ. Yet, there were also patients who were Christians who did have the "smell" (GI bleeds are the worst, right up there with a busted colostomy bag
.) So, I don't think we can go on that alone...
jshiii
Well-Known Member
Yet, there were also patients who were Christians who did have the "smell" (GI bleeds are the worst, right up there with a busted colostomy bag
Maybe I was just so happy that I was in the room with another Christian, that I didn't notice, as much, the "smell."
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Nancy
Well-Known Member
Maybe I was just so happy that I was in the room with another Christian, that I didn't notice, as much, the "smell."
Ahahaah, very possible. Here is something funny, one of my brothers (he is crazy funny!) He once prayed that his flatulence would not ever offend anyone, that they would not smell it and I swear, I never smelled his farts after that, I kid you not!
My words in blue.
Daily prayer and meditation on what we know is true, helps to keep the slate clean from day to day. It helps us to not trust the self, but the spirit of truth within us, the innermost being.
A real human being is true. If that human is not true, then it is unreal, and all its thoughts and actions bear nothing real. It may seem real and true, but has nothing in it. It is distorted or in disharmony with the innermost Being.
My question would be about ultimates.
Is a psychopath who lacks empathy, ie love and perspective, can be ever be saved, because they do not have a conscience, or knowledge emotionally of how much they hurt others?
Or people with various psychological and brain problems which mean they are not complete or are victims of compulsive behaviour?
The answer I leave up to God, for He is the judge. I have no reference point or understand the frailty of humanity and its eternal dimension.
I am not one who holds that there is eternal torture for sinners, because this equates that everyone has the same level of perception of guilt and consequences, when clearly this is not true. One problem christianity fell into was assuming our humanity was singular, where it is actually quite varied. We even taste, smell and see things differently, what is nice to one can be horrid to another. Some a sexually passive and others ridiculously active and promiscuous.
Scripture declares Gods view does not move, and so we have to work with our weaknesses to conform to His direction and ways.
Your take is interesting, but I don't align with it. Adam and Eve were ignorant so to say they should have known better I disagree with. They ate the fruit and then realized they were in error, Eve must have felt pretty stupid after she ate the fruit and it didn't make her wise as she hoped it would. God was serving man, serving Adam and Eve with life and peace and a garden full of fruits. When Adam and Eve chose to follow their own way, God gave them there own way, He separated His life from where now they didn't have a garden from God, they would have to sweat and work hard for food and they would live in fear for their lives, having to serve their flesh in order to live.
Man does NOT SEEK GOD on his own God calls. Without God's calling we are just animals left to our own nature. There is free choice but that is not the same as free will, a free will is IMPOSSIBLE. There is no such thing as a will that is free, your will is DEPENDENT upon factors, and unless you have had control over every aspect of your life from your genes to how you were nurtured, to all influences over your life, then your will is hardly free. When you have freedom to make a choice that choice is made according to many factors, many factors of which have molded your character that were out of you control. Your will is a product of how you have been influenced throughout your life. If you have faith in God it is because God called you to that faith and His influence is stronger than any other influence, His influence makes that of man's influences seem totally foolish. God says His will shall be done, that is because His influence is more powerful than all else. This is how He can say that men were predestined before the world was to be made into the image of His Son.
Think on this, it was necessary for God to make man ignorant. If they started out full of wisdom which God is the source of, then they would think it came from themselves, they would think themselves to be gods and they would also be living a lie not knowing the true God and what He is the source of. Also if God didn't bring forth or weakness and death God wouldn't have been able to make His powers known, He wouldn't be able to display that which He is the source of and we would have no reason to seek and desire Him and want that which He is the source of.
Jodi, I'm sorry but your whole premise is incorrect. Adam & Eve were clearly and explicitly told not to eat the fruit. Thus, they definitely knew better and willfully decided to defy God's decree. This understanding is not open to debate. And by eating the fruit, as warned by God, they became aware of the knowledge of good and evil. And as expected, this is what occurred, their eyes were open and they saw their nakedness.
God did not give man their own way, their ostracization from the Eden was to inhibit them from eating of the Tree of Life. It was a punishment, man would have preferred it otherwise.
So, you said so many errors in your interpretation. Man has always had free will, as we see in the Garden. Plus, free will is imperative to be able to love sincerely and authentically. And this is why the world is playing out in history as it is, it is for men, by their free will, to seek out God. And this is also why God's existence has a discretion about it, as far as the earth as we know it now is concerned. Many atheists ask why God just doesn't send a message across the sky that he exists. This is because only those who have eyes to see, will recognize God's manifestations in the profound manner that he has displayed them. Man, by his free will, will discern God's sovereignty and supremacy and seek him out accordingly.
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Hi DNB, thanks for your relpy.
I agree with you that they knew of the commandment, and they willfully disobeyed. I also believe that God gave that commandment and He knew full well that they wouldn't keep it, that it would be impossible for them to.
I hope to clarify what I was getting at, they were ignorant and in that ignorance they didn't have FAITH in God, they had limited knowledge of Him and they decided not to trust in and believe him, but follow their own way. Ignorance, lack of knowledge, lack of experience, lack of FAITH.
Compare Adam and Eve the first humans to Jesus. Jesus had the Spirit come to rest upon him, he was filled with the full measure of the Spirit, he was given, the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and FEAR of the LORD. He was called to righteousness and had God DIRECT ALL his WAYS.
Adam and Eve didn't fear the LORD, God wasn't holding their hand and keeping them for to be a light, God was exposing man's ignorance that the source of truth and righteousness comes from Him through His Spirit that He gives that then has power to influence us. They ate of the fruit and realized they were wrong and God was true to this matter, and they hid themselves, there eyes were opened and they began to fear God.
Paul and Jesus teach us that we of our own self can do nothing, we are incapable on our own to obey the law, the law only causes sin to abound. We are compared to animals, without God's mercy upon us and Him giving us the fruits of His Spirit according to His will we are just like a serpent deaf and blind, or like a dog that returns to his own vomit.
How is a person's WILL FREE? Yes man IS given the freedom to make CHOICES, but when man goes to make a choice his decision is based on FACTORS NOT BASED out of thin air, not based FROM FREEDOM. READ Romans 7 and understand why Paul calls himself a "wretched man".
Here is a very simple example, you are given the freedom at your lunch meeting to choose an apple or an orange. Your DECISION on which fruit you choose isn't based on some realm of total freedom, it's BASED on your taste-buds for one, which you have no control over, if you don't like oranges your decision is already made for you, you can't tell your tastebuds I have free will and I want to like oranges today and choose the orange. Let's say you like both pretty equally actually, but you just happened to have bought a basket of oranges this week and your kind of sick of having oranges at the moment, so you choose the apple. The FACTOR of your recent eating habits played a role in your choice. You don't tell yourself well I have free will so I am just going to forget I ate all those oranges and pretend like I'm not sick of them at the moment.
Your WILL is a product of your nature and nurture, your knowledge or lack thereof, your experiences, your own perception to experiences, your memory..etc., it's NOT FREE. Unless you have had control over your own genes and all of your experiences, and all of the influences in your life, your WILL is not FREE, it is DEPENDENT on many FACTORS, influences that many are out of your control.
We are told that God's calling is irrevocable. This is because when God calls you into FAITH, the power of His influence is more powerful than all others, it's a light that shines on the darkness and it exposes the foolish things of the world.
Man is ignorant and gullible you name it he can invent the most ridiculous superstitions and believe that they are true. Man is not above God when it comes to power of influence. If God's influence was not greater than all than He would not be able to make promises, He would not say that He will be ALL IN ALL.
He would not have said, "Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Jesus was taught by God. He left the river Jordan having been filled with the Spirit and he went into the wilderness being LED by the Spirit, and he went to the cross having been LED by the Spirit. God as promised raised him up in righteousness and directed all his ways, no other mortal man was elected out from among the people receiving this full glory of God. He could do nothing of himself, through God's Spirit he was righteous. We are to believe in the operation of God unto Christ, that faith is counted as our righteousness and we are promised to have God become ALL in us also, becoming an heir of God a joint heir with CHRIST -the man anointed with the Spirit of God not by measure.
Those that are LED/influenced by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.
I agree with you that they knew of the commandment, and they willfully disobeyed. I also believe that God gave that commandment and He knew full well that they wouldn't keep it, that it would be impossible for them to.
I hope to clarify what I was getting at, they were ignorant and in that ignorance they didn't have FAITH in God, they had limited knowledge of Him and they decided not to trust in and believe him, but follow their own way. Ignorance, lack of knowledge, lack of experience, lack of FAITH.
Compare Adam and Eve the first humans to Jesus. Jesus had the Spirit come to rest upon him, he was filled with the full measure of the Spirit, he was given, the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and FEAR of the LORD. He was called to righteousness and had God DIRECT ALL his WAYS.
Adam and Eve didn't fear the LORD, God wasn't holding their hand and keeping them for to be a light, God was exposing man's ignorance that the source of truth and righteousness comes from Him through His Spirit that He gives that then has power to influence us. They ate of the fruit and realized they were wrong and God was true to this matter, and they hid themselves, there eyes were opened and they began to fear God.
Paul and Jesus teach us that we of our own self can do nothing, we are incapable on our own to obey the law, the law only causes sin to abound. We are compared to animals, without God's mercy upon us and Him giving us the fruits of His Spirit according to His will we are just like a serpent deaf and blind, or like a dog that returns to his own vomit.
How is a person's WILL FREE? Yes man IS given the freedom to make CHOICES, but when man goes to make a choice his decision is based on FACTORS NOT BASED out of thin air, not based FROM FREEDOM. READ Romans 7 and understand why Paul calls himself a "wretched man".
Here is a very simple example, you are given the freedom at your lunch meeting to choose an apple or an orange. Your DECISION on which fruit you choose isn't based on some realm of total freedom, it's BASED on your taste-buds for one, which you have no control over, if you don't like oranges your decision is already made for you, you can't tell your tastebuds I have free will and I want to like oranges today and choose the orange. Let's say you like both pretty equally actually, but you just happened to have bought a basket of oranges this week and your kind of sick of having oranges at the moment, so you choose the apple. The FACTOR of your recent eating habits played a role in your choice. You don't tell yourself well I have free will so I am just going to forget I ate all those oranges and pretend like I'm not sick of them at the moment.
Your WILL is a product of your nature and nurture, your knowledge or lack thereof, your experiences, your own perception to experiences, your memory..etc., it's NOT FREE. Unless you have had control over your own genes and all of your experiences, and all of the influences in your life, your WILL is not FREE, it is DEPENDENT on many FACTORS, influences that many are out of your control.
We are told that God's calling is irrevocable. This is because when God calls you into FAITH, the power of His influence is more powerful than all others, it's a light that shines on the darkness and it exposes the foolish things of the world.
Man is ignorant and gullible you name it he can invent the most ridiculous superstitions and believe that they are true. Man is not above God when it comes to power of influence. If God's influence was not greater than all than He would not be able to make promises, He would not say that He will be ALL IN ALL.
He would not have said, "Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Jesus was taught by God. He left the river Jordan having been filled with the Spirit and he went into the wilderness being LED by the Spirit, and he went to the cross having been LED by the Spirit. God as promised raised him up in righteousness and directed all his ways, no other mortal man was elected out from among the people receiving this full glory of God. He could do nothing of himself, through God's Spirit he was righteous. We are to believe in the operation of God unto Christ, that faith is counted as our righteousness and we are promised to have God become ALL in us also, becoming an heir of God a joint heir with CHRIST -the man anointed with the Spirit of God not by measure.
Those that are LED/influenced by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.
Interesting Jodi, but, in my opinion, not completely accurate.
Yes, you were on to something by stating that ignorance causes people to sin, for Jesus said, 'forgive them for they know not what they do'.
But, it was not impossible for Adam & Eve to obey, that would be entirely ludicrous and unjust on God's part. For, this was the whole point of Christ, and why that he is called the 2nd Adam. Both Adam & Jesus had an equal playing field, Adam disobeyed and Christ obeyed. And this is why Adam is justifiable deemed guilty, Jesus' actions indicted him proving that Adam should've known better.
Adam & Eve were created in the image of God, and God saw that all that he created was good. thus, they had no reason to disobey, besides fee will and shallow desires.
Your analogy about choice was not accurate, for free will can obviously override taste buds, desires, inclinations or propensities. I can be enticed to eat something that I don't typically like, because I'm told that it's either spiced differently, or that it's good for me, etc.. I can be talked out of dating a girl that my friends think is wrong for me, or buying a car, or travelling here or there, despite how strong my passion is to make the wrong choice. Reason can always override one's desires or inclinations, it happens everyday.
We are all capable of doing what's right. God does not implement the death penalty against people who can't help their actions, obviously.
Paul & Jesus' remarks on this issue is a generalization, they were speaking of the majority of people, or the ubiquitous presence of sin in man (but good also). Noah was deemed righteous in God's eyes, so was Abraham called a friend, Moses spoke to God face to face, David was a man after God's own heart.
But, as far as being perfect goes, that's where we need Christ. The problem is, man will stray, sooner or later, or eventually, or invariably. But, he still has the means before him to do what God demands, and that is to love him with all our hearts and mind, and to love our neighbour as ourselves, that's perfection. Every human on earth has the ability to love, this was from the time of creation until now, and this was not denied Adam & Eve, they just chose to misdirect their love, etc.. Christ love for God and his neighbour never strayed or waned.
And this is why God holds us accountable, ...and where his grace comes in. Like Abraham said to God, if you find 10 in Sodome that are righteous, will you spare the entire city, and God said yes.
Same thing with Christ, he found one that could fulfill his law of Love perfectly, and thus, God made redemption available to all that would accept their guilt, and God's grace.
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