The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,155
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Your conversation with Helen....I will only butt in if I deem it necessary.

An open forum is never exclusive...butt in all you like... :)
@mjrhealth also.

I'd like to see him post more. Hope he doesn't feel that someone will 'jump' on him when he does.
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,155
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Thats what gets me, it relies on "our performance", it is not a competition, God is no respecter of person, this makes it as if one is better than another, and we are all equal in the eyes of God.

God bless

It does not rely on our performance ...The race is all about vision...Does He fill our vision?
it relies on our choice and our enduring passion for HIM Himself.. As I said before..HE is our Prize ...

It is our calling and election that we are 'making sure'.
ie. Will we fill the position/ place...the Jesus went to prepare for us all as individuals? The Kingdom is not just one glob of happy christians ...just like God shows us down here...not everyone is a Prophet, not everyone is a pastor , or teacher, or an apostle... even that God is giving us a clue about His kingdom to come.

Al we each do is run in such a way as to please Him ....just as Jesus had the cross before Him..." For the Joy set before Him He endured the cross."

The Race is just our passion and cross ...for the joy that is beyond ...We see Him..thus we run.
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not yet seen." Yet we 'see Him'. He fills our vision, He is our Vision.
 
  • Like
Reactions: justbyfaith

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Hello

Does not the parable of the Judgement of the Nation, in Matt 25:31-46, tell us, that those who have their eyes on the "prize" of eternal life, will be rejected at the time of judgement?

Shalom
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Just ask your local priest when they created the celibacy rule. They are taught it’s origins in seminary. They think it is to keep them pure, but it is to keep them from having their kids take over the congregation
I'm not asking my "local priest" - I'm asking YOU.

I asked YOU to show me when priestly celibacy began taking root in the Church - and whether or not it had ANYTHING to do with nepotism.

If you can't answer the question - then you don't have a case.
I eagerly await your educated response . . .
CRICKETS . . .
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hello

Does not the parable of the Judgement of the Nation, in Matt 25:31-46, tell us, that those who have their eyes on the "prize" of eternal life, will be rejected at the time of judgement?

Shalom
No, it doesn't.
That's what we're supposed to do . . .
Phil. 3:14
I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

The lesson of the Sheep and Goats is about faith working through LOVE.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
No, it doesn't.
That's what we're supposed to do . . .
Phil. 3:14
I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

The lesson of the Sheep and Goats is about faith working through LOVE.

But you have missed my point all together. The goats also call Jesus Lord, but their eyes are on the prize and not tuned in to the heart of Christ.

Shalom
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm not asking my "local priest" - I'm asking YOU.

I asked YOU to show me when priestly celibacy began taking root in the Church - and whether or not it had ANYTHING to do with nepotism.

If you can't answer the question - then you don't have a case.
I eagerly await your educated response . . .
The RCC fathers would never openly admit it. However, it is common knowledge that there was a worry of losing control like all kingdoms have lost control per nepotism.
The RCC fathers cleverly disguised this concern as a holiness issue.
It worked, and they were able to boot out non conformists easily. No sons to take the fathers place in the church....the new appointee is on the way.
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,155
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
But you have missed my point all together. The goats also call Jesus Lord, but their eyes are on the prize and not tuned in to the heart of Christ.

Shalom

The Prize IS the Lord...Himself ....We'd better keep our eyes on The Prize at all times. "Thou shalt love the Lord Thy God with all of thy heart ,mind, body and strength ...."
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

Truther

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2019
10,295
1,479
113
62
Lodi
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
CRICKETS . . .
Fascinating...


Tom MeadowcroftMar 23rd 2017, 14:56


All governance systems that do not explicitly battle it are prone to nepotism. Just about every absolute ruler in history has tried to dictate that transfer of power should be dynastic. Because genetic links to sons are a deeply unreliable way to find a good ruler, that is a weakness of any dynastic empire. Some of the longest lived empires have fought against the power of nepotism, including the Mamluks in Egypt (not allowed families) and the Ottomans, which while dynastic at the top had a bureaucracy and military staffed by men who were recruited as children and forced to live with no (acknowledged) family, loyal only to the Sultan. The papacy, which has lasted for 2000 years, or in its modern form since Emperor Constantine at least, has largely avoided nepotism through the use of celibacy. The danger of removing celibacy is not the sex itself, but rather the splitting of loyalty between family and the church. Without celibacy, in a generation popes would be appointing their sons as arch-bishops.

Ironically, allowing priests to have sex, but not to marry, might be the best way to encourage the priesthood (that and allowing women, of course), without weakening the papacy. Unfortunately, that would involve changing more than a few other rules. But celibacy has always been about avoiding nepotism and maintaining a meritocracy, and thus a strong leadership, in a system of absolute rule. What ancestral dynasty can claim the length and strength of rule that the papacy can? All non-celibate absolute rule dynasties fall within a few generations, even the most powerful. Look at the Mongol empire of Ghengis and Kublai Khan; broken up starting with Kublai Khan's sons. Celibacy has kept the papacy relatively powerful and strong. Abandoning celibacy would inevitably mean abandoning absolute rule of the pope, or allowing it to become hereditary.



Why Catholic Priests Can't Marry (at Least for Now) | Live Science
 

Ernest T. Bass

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
1,845
616
113
out in the woods
Living/saving faith produces obedience: it is an obedient attitude.

It is not our obedient actions (works) that save us; but our faith: which is an attitude that results in obedient actions.

Again, faith/belief is a form of obedience.

There is no example in the Bible of a person who continued in disobedience but saved anyway. People must first obey then saved. THis is why the Bible says faith alone does not justify.
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,447
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's been said that the blood is in the water.

To @mjrhealth.
Actually the blood of the "new man" of us is the Holy Spirit! As the natural/carnal red blood of a man gives/retains life according to the flesh to the natural/carnal body of men, so the Holy Spirit gives/retains Life to the "new man" of the Spirit. This last is the Life which Jesus brought!

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have Life, and that they might have it more abundantly."John 10:10

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." Lev 17:11

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his Blood, ye have no Life in you." John 6:53

"It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are Life." John 6:63

"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is Life because of righteousness." Rom 8:10

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth Life." II Cor 3:6

"For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap Life everlasting." Gal 6:8
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,447
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This bit gets me, if we are in a race, someone must win and someone must loose. I liked it first year in school everyone was rewarded no matter how they performed.
Men's races are one thing, but are usually not good examples comparable to the race we are in or to be in...

"I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all." Ecc 9:11

Most of Solomon's writings do apply to the flesh, but always consider or look for another meaning related to those who serve God!

According to the flesh all kinds of things can and do happen, kind of like the race between the Tortoise and the Hare where the final result was not what men who observe the abilities of men would expect. Than we see Jesus not speaking who finishes first, but rather of who finishes at all!

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Matt 10:22
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: mjrhealth and Helen

Ernest T. Bass

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
1,845
616
113
out in the woods
Again, you are only slightly off.

Faith/belief = an obedient attitude.
There is no verse that says faith is just an attitude and nothing more.

Belief is obedience, an obedient work.

Romans 5:1----------------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2:24----------------------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies

Since there is but one way to be saved/justified then faith must be an obedient work. Again John 3:36 contrasts "believeth" to "obeyeth not" meaning believing is obedience and not believing is disobedience.

Again, no one can produce one example of a person who was saved while that person continued in disobedience. He that continues in unrighteousness continues to not be of God 1 John 3:10
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
WRONG.
The believer must show love in order too have true faith (Matt. 25:31-46, Eph. 5:6, 1 Cor. 13:13, 1 Cor. 13:2) - or its worthless.

WRONG.

Scripture indicates that we obtain the love of the Lord through faith (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5).

And the fact remains that if you deny the nature of God in the Triune Godhead - you have invented a FALSE god.
This is a direct violation of the First Commandment.

"Oneness" theology is a false god.

We must ask the question: if someone's understanding of the Lord's nature is slightly off, but that same someone has a relationship with Jesus Christ and loves God, will not their faith judge the person who has the details of the Trinity down pat?

1Co 8:1, Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
1Co 8:2, And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
1Co 8:3, But if any man love God, the same is known of him.


Oneness Pentecostals have an advantage over you...they have all received believer's baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...and thus they have all been absolutely promised the Holy Ghost (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39).

EVERY example of the Baptism of Christ in the NT was done by one of the Church leaders.
Show me ONE that wasn't.

If you will concede that baptism in Jesus' Name was the only method used in the book of Acts, I will concede that baptism was done only by church leaders in holy scripture.
 
Last edited:

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no verse that says faith is just an attitude and nothing more.

Belief is obedience, an obedient work.

Romans 5:1----------------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2:24----------------------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies

Since there is but one way to be saved/justified then faith must be an obedient work. Again John 3:36 contrasts "believeth" to "obeyeth not" meaning believing is obedience and not believing is disobedience.

Again, no one can produce one example of a person who was saved while that person continued in disobedience. He that continues in unrighteousness continues to not be of God 1 John 3:10
In James 2:24, works justifies because it shows forth the fact that the person's faith is genuine, i.e. that the person has an obedient attitude.

Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart (1 Samuel 16:7).

Before God, a person is justified by faith alone, which is invisible to detection by man, except when the person shows forth their faith by their works.

Justification by works is not before God...it is only before man (Romans 4:2).

And I have never contended that a person with genuine faith will continue in disobedience. What I am contending is that obedient action does not save anyone. Because salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:9).

Obedient attitude does save a man.

What this means is that a person can come to faith, an obedient attitude, and die two minutes later without doing any good works, and still go to heaven. Because we are saved by grace through faith (an obedient attitude) apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:5).

God imputes righteousness apart from works (Romans 4:6).

We are regenerated and renewed, "not by works of righteousness which we have done." (Titus 3:5).
 
Last edited:

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And actually, faith is belief in Jesus Christ in such a manner as to obtain forgiveness.

And whoever is forgiven much, loves much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5).

Therefore the root of our obedience is love; and the root of our love is having been forgiven through simple belief in what Christ has done for us on the Cross.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,760
2,523
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The Prize IS the Lord...Himself ....We'd better keep our eyes on The Prize at all times. "Thou shalt love the Lord Thy God with all of thy heart ,mind, body and strength ...."

Helen you too have missed the point of that parable.

Let me give you an example which is a bit like the outcome of the parable in Matt 25: -

Was your husband a prize to get or someone that you simply loved and the outcome was not considered?

The Lambs in the parable LOVED God/Jesus, not because of the prize, but because of who He was.

The Goats in the parable LOVED the Prize, and not really God/Jesus, and they would have ministered to the Lord/Christ, if they perceived the PRIZE was in jeopardy, otherwise they simply ignored the heart that they should have had for the people around them.

Shalom
 

RogerDC

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2020
1,107
168
63
64
Forster
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I totally agree that we must be ‘found abiding’ in Him ...and clothed In Christ .
... except you don't know what "abiding in Him" means. You think it means "faith alone", but the Scriptures contradict your erroneous belief:
“And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him’ but disobeys His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1John 2:3-4)

“If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love” (John 15:9)
“All who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them.” (1John 3:24)
“If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned" (John 15:6).
Believing in Him through thick and thin of life is indeed work of faith.
Unfortunately, believing in Him is not enough. You must also abide in Christ by keeping his commandments.

Rev 14:12 - “Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
For myself ... I do believe in the finished work of Christ
What do you mean by "the finished work of Christ"?
and ‘he that believes unto the end will be saved ‘.
Which verse says "he that believes unto the end will be saved"?