Must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In the past God allowed unholy men to worship Him in a certain location...the temple. It was the temple that was holy...not the people. But now WE are the temple and WE need to be holy in order to carry God's presence with us.
Good answer!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus was condemned by the crowd. He was seen as too elitist...to use your political jargon.
Jesus seen as elitist? The common people loved Jesus, that was a big part of the rulers being against Him.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And that is essentially the history of mankind AND the modern church. Nobody wants to esteem others higher than themselves. No one wants to obey the Lord. And the ones who do are criticized by the non-obedient ones as ...elitist.

That may be so . . . or it may be a throw-down blanket accusation . . . just the same, there are a number of ways elitism shows itself.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I see several different kinds of worship: Corporate, personal and private. Also, I find that our very lives should reflect true worship in Spirit and Truth, as we continue in our daily lives we should be glorifying Him through our thoughts, actions and very beings connected to Him always. 1 Cor. 10:31
Lifting up thanks always to Him for what He has done for us and sharing those things with others (IMO) is also a form of worship.

Hi Nancy,

I have the idea that the lifting of thanks is like the sacrifices in the temple, while gratitude from the heart is the spirit and truth that Jesus is speaking of.

I like what you wrote here:

as we continue in our daily lives we should be glorifying Him through our thoughts, actions and very beings connected to Him always.

Much love!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Since our innermost being is already at rest with the Truth, why then this need to perform these tasks. It sounds the opposite of the very nature of our innermost being (spirit of God within us).
Hi Invisibilis,

I would agree with you here. These are the externals that Jesus was directing us away from. Not what we "do", but who we are inside.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In order for the love of God (which is shed abroad in our hearts and therefore free to roam within us) to be free and dominant within us...the ego needs to be put into a box....or...crucified. And we bury that box in deep storage because as long as Christ is our life...we don't need the ego. We store it in a box that we don't ever open, at least we should never desire to open it. It's akin to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I think the real answer is that you must be born again. It's not about self-control, burying the ego in a box, it's about a new life. And then the new life gives us control.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Of ourselves we can't worship in Spirit and truth. We need to go through (overcome) the pull of the world and our carnal natures to have that kind of freedom and grace.
True, we cannot, but again, that new life in Christ . . . this gives the freedom and grace to overcome. It seems to me you have the cart before the horse.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We are slaves to sin and the law of sin and death until a greater law causes us to overcome that law. It's like the law of flight that overcomes the law of gravity. That is what grace does.
Amen! Life in Christ!
 

GTW27

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2018
867
1,222
93
wilderness
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think the real answer is that you must be born again. It's not about self-control, burying the ego in a box, it's about a new life. And then the new life gives us control.

And that new life is Him in us, and us in Him as One, just as promised!
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

Stumpmaster

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2009
2,048
1,389
113
69
Hamilton, New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
John 4:23-24. "But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24.God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

This is not a test. I am seriously asking you how do you worship in the Spirit and in truth?
Hi Invisibilis. You ask an excellent question which is part of the ongoing religion versus relationship discussion. The history of Samaria as a place where paganism and ignorance had created a "mongrel" belief system, is noted in these OT verses.
2Ki 17:26-29
(26) Wherefore they spake to the king of Assyria, saying, The nations which thou hast removed, and placed in the cities of Samaria, know not the manner of the God of the land: therefore he hath sent lions among them, and, behold, they slay them, because they know not the manner of the God of the land.
(27) Then the king of Assyria commanded, saying, Carry thither one of the priests whom ye brought from thence; and let them go and dwell there, and let him teach them the manner of the God of the land.
(28) Then one of the priests whom they had carried away from Samaria came and dwelt in Bethel, and taught them how they should fear the LORD.
(29) Howbeit every nation made gods of their own, and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in their cities wherein they dwelt.

Jesus teaches the Samaritan woman at the well that we are to acknowledge the worthiness of God in ways that are not confined to place, tradition, and ceremony, and we are to show our sincerity in this by our actions, not our pretensions as hypocrites. I list below 7 scriptural aspects of worship that I make it my business to cultivate:
  1. Fellowship
  2. Stewardship
  3. Discipleship
  4. Leadership
  5. Evangelism
  6. Intercession
  7. Rest
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mike Waters

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2018
16,761
25,324
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi Nancy,

I have the idea that the lifting of thanks is like the sacrifices in the temple, while gratitude from the heart is the spirit and truth that Jesus is speaking of.

I like what you wrote here:

as we continue in our daily lives we should be glorifying Him through our thoughts, actions and very beings connected to Him always.

Much love!

Thank you Marks!
And yes, good comparison with the "lifting of thanks and sacrifices in the Temple" Reminds me of:
"Sacrifice thank offerings to God, fulfill your vows to the Most High."
Psalm 50:14
So happy we don't have to kill animals! Lol.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

Mike Waters

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2020
317
526
93
89
Holt
slideshowart2.blogspot.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Hi Mike, And welcome!

Yes! And not only because you've quoted one of my very favorites.

I think that worshipping in spirit and in truth is to say that external worship is over, all the temple ceremony, and now, instead of being sinners hidden under the sacrifice, now we are made new, and we are reconciled, spiritually alive, and not by atonement, but by a new birth.

We are in truth His children, His worshipers.

Much love!

The thought that the 'atonement' is God's side of the 'salvation' equation, whereas the experience of our consequential 'New Birth and Life' is our side of that equation, often pervades my quiet times of reflection.
 

Mike Waters

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2020
317
526
93
89
Holt
slideshowart2.blogspot.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
When I was a young Christian (70 years ago) the buzz word was 'constantly abiding' and I well remember how fantastic I felt when I was able to look back on having achieved a long spell when my thoughts (worshipping God in spirit and in truth) had not been interrupted by anything that I was not able to "captivate" and relate to my Christian walk (bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ, 2 Corinthians 10:5)
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Tozer said..in each one of us is a cross and a throne...either we are on the cross and Christ is on the throne or else we are on the cross and Christ is on the throne. That is where the "no longer I" comes in.

I would say that Tozer is right....and I additionally put that as....either the ego is free and loose in us and God is in a box...or else we lose the ego into a box and Christ is loose and free within us.

I am not so sure Tozer is right, any man who has being to the cross, has already died, and now has only Christ before Him who is leading Him the to newness of life, on that narrow path, that cross has being behind many for many a year, following the lamb of God who was slain before the beginning of time.
 

Invisibilis

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2017
383
347
63
Northern Rivers
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
...In order for the love of God (which is shed abroad in our hearts and therefore free to roam within us) to be free and dominant within us...the ego needs to be put into a box....or...crucified. And we bury that box in deep storage because as long as Christ is our life...we don't need the ego. We store it in a box that we don't ever open, at least we should never desire to open it. It's akin to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Tozer said..in each one of us is a cross and a throne...either we are on the cross and Christ is on the throne or else we are on the cross and Christ is on the throne. That is where the "no longer I" comes in.

I would say that Tozer is right....and I additionally put that as....either the ego is free and loose in us and God is in a box...or else we lose the ego into a box and Christ is loose and free within us.
Don't forget that the ego is part of 'self'. It was created by the mind so it can identify itself, for both the brain and mind cannot be sensed by our senses. So, if we bury the ego, in the hope of never experiencing it again, we will be also burying the 'self'. But we need the 'self' because it is the self (self-will) which holds the power to make choices, as in 'to be true, or not to be true'. Besides, I have never heard of a person capable of burying their ego (for too long). However, we can 'choose' to never trust it again.
 

Invisibilis

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2017
383
347
63
Northern Rivers
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Of ourselves we can't worship in Spirit and truth. We need to go through (overcome) the pull of the world and our carnal natures to have that kind of freedom and grace.


We are slaves to sin and the law of sin and death until a greater law causes us to overcome that law. It's like the law of flight that overcomes the law of gravity. That is what grace does.
Faith is easy as long as we don't trust the ego. Ego is always needy and wanting. Faith does not work under any conditionality, including wants and needs. It only works unconditionally, accepting whatever God's will is for us. Faith vacates self/ego from our consciousness and invites Truth to merge with our consciousness. When that happens, our thoughts and feelings are expressions of truth. Truth sets us free. Free of fear, wants, needs, and sin. Free is to be unconditional, free from the bondage of self. Free is Truth, Love and Faith. Free is easy, free is rest.

As soon as we tense up, we are trusting self again, instead of God. We can become sensitive enough to sense our loss of freedom. The more we can accept everything the more grateful we become for the freedom. Hence, we love it. We love the Truth above everything else, this is worshiping God, and we miss it more quickly whenever we get sidetracked.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Invisibilis

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2017
383
347
63
Northern Rivers
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Hi Invisibilis,

I'm seeing that this passages reads a little differently than you have here, that the time is coming and now is, that the true worshipers shall worship the Father . . . "in spirit and in truth", rather than "in the spirit".

Worshiping in spirit would be as opposed to worshiping in flesh. We don't do outward acts of worship that require a bronze altar, and temple.

This was what the woman was asking about, where are we to worship? Jesus answers her, you are to worship God in spirit, an entirely different kind of worship.

Those who worship God worship in spirit and in truth.

Before regeneration, all men had was flesh, and worshiped God in their flesh. But then Jesus brought rebirth, and a new spirit life, and that is now how God is worshiped.

We have a new spirit which gives God worship, and does so in truth.

Not like the pharisee who thanked God he wasn't like the others . . . That's not worship.

Jesus' answer to her was to direct her to an entirely different way.

In spirit is to say, it's inside us, it's about who we are, and who God is, in reality, in our lives. No pretense. No show. Only truth. Are you truly His? Are you a new creation? These are God's worshipers. Not simply whomever gathers at the temple.

Much love!
So in other words, we worship in loving the Truth. Spirit is true, loving and faithful. So, to worship in spirit is to worship God in unconditional faith, love, and absolute honesty (truth).
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

Invisibilis

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2017
383
347
63
Northern Rivers
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Okay, I got the clarification now. It's obvious now.
Thank you all for your input, guidance, soul searching. It has helped me with my own soul searching for the truth. My soul loves the truth, it is so soul nourishing.
So in other words, we worship in loving the Truth. Spirit is true, loving and faithful. So, to worship in spirit is to worship God in unconditional faith, love, and absolute honesty (truth).
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,794
19,242
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I am not so sure Tozer is right, any man who has being to the cross, has already died, and now has only Christ before Him who is leading Him the to newness of life, on that narrow path, that cross has being behind many for many a year, following the lamb of God who was slain before the beginning of time.


Crucified means dead....dead to sins...fully. If being crucified was a once for all event then no Christian would ever sin again because of the death to self that the power of the cross brings.

When we speak of a "positional" crucifixion we are dealing with a dogmatic ideology that has no meaning or power to stop people from sinning.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,794
19,242
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Don't forget that the ego is part of 'self'. It was created by the mind so it can identify itself, for both the brain and mind cannot be sensed by our senses. So, if we bury the ego, in the hope of never experiencing it again, we will be also burying the 'self'. But we need the 'self' because it is the self (self-will) which holds the power to make choices, as in 'to be true, or not to be true'. Besides, I have never heard of a person capable of burying their ego (for too long). However, we can 'choose' to never trust it again.


God does this so that it is no longer I but Christ. The power of the cross takes away the self with it's reliance on ego. Ego goes into a storage box so to speak because Christ is fully in control.

Our identity is with Christ because of this. It is miraculous....beyond human power to conceptualize. It is supernatural.