Judaism or Christianity?

Ernest T. Bass · Jan 20, 2020

Davy said:
The majority of fleshy Israel became... Christian. You cannot compare unbelieving Israel with those of the seed that have believed on Jesus, and I'm not talking about Jews, I'm talking about the majority of the scattered seed of the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) which were not known as Jews, and are still lost to the world and to the Jews, but not to God. This is why Apostle Paul quoted Hosea 1 to Roman Gentile believers. It's because when The Gospel went forth after the passion of Christ, it went to the ten lost tribes scattered among the Gentiles, and both would become Christ's Church. It literally fulfilled God's promise to Jacob that his seed would become "a company of nations", and to Ephraim that his seed would become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.35 & 48).

Just a remnant were saved, Romans 9:27; Romans 11:4-5.

God's election of fleshly Israel was not an unconditional guarantee of their salvation. Those chosen of God they still had to obey God to be saved and just a remnant obeyed.

Romans 11:4-5 "But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

Back in the days of Elijah out of millions of Jews only 7000 were God's people, Paul then points out that in "this present time" there is only remnant of Jews that were God's people. Millions of Jews were not God's people way back then just as it was at this present time....what was true in Elijah's time was true at Paul's time.
That remnant was composed of Paul's time was made of those Jews that obeyed the gospel. In Acts 2 we see the true Israel that is Christianity (spiritual Israel, the church, the true Jew Romans 2:29) coming out of the old fleshly Israel of Judaism.

Netchaplain · Jan 21, 2020

Some useful information I found on this subject can be viewed searching “Redemption Planned” by
Don Kistler, and I like the OT passage he includes that I believe is directly related: Zech 6:13.
Redemption Planned by Don Kistler

Davy · Jan 21, 2020

Ernest T. Bass said:
Just a remnant were saved, Romans 9:27; Romans 11:4-5.

God's election of fleshly Israel was not an unconditional guarantee of their salvation. Those chosen of God they still had to obey God to be saved and just a remnant obeyed.

Romans 11:4-5 "But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

Back in the days of Elijah out of millions of Jews only 7000 were God's people, Paul then points out that in "this present time" there is only remnant of Jews that were God's people. Millions of Jews were not God's people way back then just as it was at this present time....what was true in Elijah's time was true at Paul's time.
That remnant was composed of Paul's time was made of those Jews that obeyed the gospel. In Acts 2 we see the true Israel that is Christianity (spiritual Israel, the church, the true Jew Romans 2:29) coming out of the old fleshly Israel of Judaism.

You've missed whom God placed the blindness stupor upon Israel in part per Paul in that Rom.11 chapter. It wasn't placed upon the majority of the children of Israel, of which the ten northern tribes were. It was placed upon the majority of Jews of the southern kingdom. This is why Jesus was rejected at Jerusalem, but He said that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The house of Israel in God's Word after... the 1 Kings 11 split, meant only the ten northern tribes, not the Jews. Don't confuse the term Jew with the ten northern tribes. The word Jew comes from the tribe of Judah. The southern kingdom was made up of 3 tribes, Judah, Benjamin, and Levi (and a small number from the ten tribes that migrated because they refused Jeroboam's calf idols in the north).

Ernest T. Bass · Jan 22, 2020

Davy said:
You've missed whom God placed the blindness stupor upon Israel in part per Paul in that Rom.11 chapter. It wasn't placed upon the majority of the children of Israel, of which the ten northern tribes were. It was placed upon the majority of Jews of the southern kingdom. This is why Jesus was rejected at Jerusalem, but He said that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The house of Israel in God's Word after... the 1 Kings 11 split, meant only the ten northern tribes, not the Jews. Don't confuse the term Jew with the ten northern tribes. The word Jew comes from the tribe of Judah. The southern kingdom was made up of 3 tribes, Judah, Benjamin, and Levi (and a small number from the ten tribes that migrated because they refused Jeroboam's calf idols in the north).

Paul has already made it clear that just a remnant was saved, Romans 9:27; Romans 11:4-5.

If you are referring to Romans 11:25 that says "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." The "in part" shows that not every single Jew was blinded, but just the unbelieving, rebellious Jews who rejected Christ and His gospel.....which was overwhelmingly most Jews. It was just a remnant that did believe. Also, the blinding was not something God did to these Jews against their will, but due to their own choice in to be in unbelief they were blind and cut off by God (Romans 11:20).

Davy · Jan 22, 2020

Ernest T. Bass said:
Paul has already made it clear that just a remnant was saved, Romans 9:27; Romans 11:4-5.

If you are referring to Romans 11:25 that says "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." The "in part" shows that not every single Jew was blinded, but just the unbelieving, rebellious Jews who rejected Christ and His gospel.....which was overwhelmingly most Jews. It was just a remnant that did believe. Also, the blinding was not something God did to these Jews against their will, but due to their own choice in to be in unbelief they were blind and cut off by God (Romans 11:20).

There are 3 different groups Paul is teaching about in that Romans 11 chapter...

Rom 11:1-23
11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 'Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, and digged down Thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.'
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? 'I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.'
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

That "remnant" does not mean it has to be only a limited number of 7,000. That number is only a symbol for God's chosen elect of the seed of Israel that cannot be deceived, all the way up to Christ' return, a la the 144,000 of Rev.7. The believers of all 12 tribes scattered abroad that Apostle James addressed his Epistle to is an example, not just believing Jews only, but also believers of the ten lost tribes. In Jame's day, it was still known where the majority of the ten tribes of Israel were scattered to. Even the Jewish historian Josephus who lived in 100 A.D. said the ten tribes were still scattered beyond Euphrates, and were a great number, too many to be numbered. That showed he knew where they were. The majority of the house of Judah were still living in Babylon then also, and they would migrate along routes like the ten tribed house of Israel did. That is who all James was addressing in James 1:1. So how big could this remnant be? Certainly not just the believing Jews in Judea like Paul and his brethren.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear

unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

That was written also in OT Scripture like Isaiah 28 & 29. It is about the Jews mainly who rejected Jesus as The Christ. That is the Israel in part that God blinded so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. But it also involves some of the seed of the house of Israel also, for in the end Ephraim is to be deceived.

It is mainly the unbelieving Jews that Paul is talking about further on...

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

All that is given to represent God having put spiritual blindness upon Israel in part so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. But God still has a plan for those He blinded. When He removes that blindness, then it will be their time to believe on Jesus, or still refuse Him and remain cut off.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
KJV

The following is a section of Romans 11 that many preach against, to their own consternation and deceptions...

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

If we think the unbelievers of Israel are done for, and cannot be turned by God, then we have become conceited in our own beliefs about Christ's salvation. Paul marks when God will remove their blindness He put upon them. It will be when the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in". That won't be until Jesus returns. Then just as we have received remission of sins past by belief on Christ Jesus, they also receive that when they believe on Jesus as The Christ, otherwise they will remain cut off and in their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

For this present time, they are enemies against The Gospel. But they are still God's chosen elect, as He blinded them so they are in a spiritual stupor against Christ Jesus. And thus God's gifts and calling is without repentance, meaning He won't go back on those whom He chose. We should easily know this too, with examples like Job, Jonah and Saul (Paul). He already owns His chosen elect and will divinely intervene with them.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV

Very important that. Just as in times past the Gentiles were in unbelief and had no offer of salvation, and then obtained mercy through belief on Christ with The Gospel preached to them, so likewise these (Jews) who have not believed so mercy would go the Gentile, will obtain mercy through the Gentiles' belief on Christ Jesus.

Ernest T. Bass · Jan 22, 2020

Davy said:
There are 3 different groups Paul is teaching about in that Romans 11 chapter...

That "remnant" does not mean it has to be only a limited number of 7,000. That number is only a symbol for God's chosen elect of the seed of Israel that cannot be deceived, all the way up to Christ' return, a la the 144,000 of Rev.7. The believers of all 12 tribes scattered abroad that Apostle James addressed his Epistle to is an example, not just believing Jews only, but also believers of the ten lost tribes. In Jame's day, it was still known where the majority of the ten tribes of Israel were scattered to. Even the Jewish historian Josephus who lived in 100 A.D. said the ten tribes were still scattered beyond Euphrates, and were a great number, too many to be numbered. That showed he knew where they were. The majority of the house of Judah were still living in Babylon then also, and they would migrate along routes like the ten tribed house of Israel did. That is who all James was addressing in James 1:1. So how big could this remnant be? Certainly not just the believing Jews in Judea like Paul and his brethren.

We find in verses 3 and 4 who "His people" of verse 1 are and God's people has always been those that obeyed him. Paul shows in Elijah's time God's people was NOT ALL of Israel but those 7000 that would not bow to Baal. In this present time God's people are those that obey the NT gospel of Christ. There was just a remnant of at Elijah's time that obeyed by not bowing to Baal and a remnant at Paul's time that obeyed the gospel. Disobedient idolators are not God's people. Paul clearly uses the word 'remnant" and not 'all'.

Davy said:
That was written also in OT Scripture like Isaiah 28 & 29. It is about the Jews mainly who rejected Jesus as The Christ. That is the Israel in part that God blinded so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. But it also involves some of the seed of the house of Israel also, for in the end Ephraim is to be deceived.

Those Jews that rejected Jesus as Christ are NOT of God's people of Romans 11:1, they are not of the remnant of Jews that did believe Christ and obey the gospel in Acts 2:38. Paul, though a Jew in the flesh, was not cast away for he was of the remnant that did obey. Paul became a Christian a spiritual Jew Romans 2:28-29 and a spiritual heir of Abraham Galatians 3:28-29

Davy said:
It is mainly the unbelieving Jews that Paul is talking about further on...

All that is given to represent God having put spiritual blindness upon Israel in part so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. But God still has a plan for those He blinded. When He removes that blindness, then it will be their time to believe on Jesus, or still refuse Him and remain cut off.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
KJV

The following is a section of Romans 11 that many preach against, to their own consternation and deceptions...

And most of the Jews did not believe Christ.

Davy said:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

If we think the unbelievers of Israel are done for, and cannot be turned by God, then we have become conceited in our own beliefs about Christ's salvation. Paul marks when God will remove their blindness He put upon them. It will be when the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in". That won't be until Jesus returns. Then just as we have received remission of sins past by belief on Christ Jesus, they also receive that when they believe on Jesus as The Christ, otherwise they will remain cut off and in their sins.

THe unbleievers of Israel are "done' for" if they do not believe. But if they would believe they can be graffed in again.

Davy said:
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

For this present time, they are enemies against The Gospel. But they are still God's chosen elect, as He blinded them so they are in a spiritual stupor against Christ Jesus. And thus God's gifts and calling is without repentance, meaning He won't go back on those whom He chose. We should easily know this too, with examples like Job, Jonah and Saul (Paul). He already owns His chosen elect and will divinely intervene with them.

No, the fleshly Jews are NOT still God's elect for the context clearly says they were cast off, broken off. Christians are God's elect today and anyone Jew or Gentile must become a Christian to be saved. If one can be saved without becoming a Christian then Christ died in vain.

God had promised Abraham that through him all nations (including the Hebrew nation) would be blessed. If God cut off the fleshly Jews making salvation impossible for them then God would have to "repent" that is, change the promise He made to Abraham. But since God left the door of salvation ajar for the Jews to find salvation in Christ then God does not have to change His promises ( God is without repentance). Again if the Jews believe they can be graffed in again.

Davy said:
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Davy said:
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV

Very important that. Just as in times past the Gentiles were in unbelief and had no offer of salvation, and then obtained mercy through belief on Christ with The Gospel preached to them, so likewise these (Jews) who have not believed so mercy would go the Gentile, will obtain mercy through the Gentiles' belief on Christ Jesus.

The fleshly Jews always had salvation offered to them. Under the OT law they could be justified by a faithful obedience as Abraham was justified by a faithful obeidnece. Under the NT law, the fleshly Jew can be jsufieid by obedience to Christ's NT gospel. But their refusal to have a faithful obedience to God is what finally led God to cutting them off.

The gospel was first to go the Jew then the Gentile Romans 1:16, But because of the widespread unbelief of the Jews (v30) of the gospel the gospel went to the Gentile faster. The Gentiles that were once obedient obtain mercy by the disobedience of the Jews.

Verse 31 The Jews could obtain mercy by the preaching of the Gentiles. Gentile Christians back then and today can take the gospel to the lost.

liafailrock · Jan 22, 2020

Ernest T. Bass said:
We find in verses 3 and 4 who "His people" of verse 1 are and God's people has always been those that obeyed him. Paul shows in Elijah's time God's people was NOT ALL of Israel but those 7000 that would not bow to Baal. In this present time God's people are those that obey the NT gospel of Christ. There was just a remnant of at Elijah's time that obeyed by not bowing to Baal and a remnant at Paul's time that obeyed the gospel. Disobedient idolators are not God's people. Paul clearly uses the word 'remnant" and not 'all'.

Those Jews that rejected Jesus as Christ are NOT of God's people of Romans 11:1, they are not of the remnant of Jews that did believe Christ and obey the gospel in Acts 2:38. Paul, though a Jew in the flesh, was not cast away for he was of the remnant that did obey. Paul became a Christian a spiritual Jew Romans 2:28-29 and a spiritual heir of Abraham Galatians 3:28-29

And most of the Jews did not believe Christ.

THe unbleievers of Israel are "done' for" if they do not believe. But if they would believe they can be graffed in again.

No, the fleshly Jews are NOT still God's elect for the context clearly says they were cast off, broken off. Christians are God's elect today and anyone Jew or Gentile must become a Christian to be saved. If one can be saved without becoming a Christian then Christ died in vain.

God had promised Abraham that through him all nations (including the Hebrew nation) would be blessed. If God cut off the fleshly Jews making salvation impossible for them then God would have to "repent" that is, change the promise He made to Abraham. But since God left the door of salvation ajar for the Jews to find salvation in Christ then God does not have to change His promises ( God is without repentance). Again if the Jews believe they can be graffed in again.

The fleshly Jews always had salvation offered to them. Under the OT law they could be justified by a faithful obedience as Abraham was justified by a faithful obeidnece. Under the NT law, the fleshly Jew can be jsufieid by obedience to Christ's NT gospel. But their refusal to have a faithful obedience to God is what finally led God to cutting them off.

The gospel was first to go the Jew then the Gentile Romans 1:16, But because of the widespread unbelief of the Jews (v30) of the gospel the gospel went to the Gentile faster. The Gentiles that were once obedient obtain mercy by the disobedience of the Jews.

Verse 31 The Jews could obtain mercy by the preaching of the Gentiles. Gentile Christians back then and today can take the gospel to the lost.

With all due respect, I don't think you are understanding Davy at all. You still see only Jews and Gentiles. There's 3-- Jews, lost Israel who appear as Gentiles, and true Gentiles -- I call the latter non-Israelite Gentiles. In all cases, all 3 groups can be either saved or lost. Meanwhile, the Israelites ARE Gentiles who became other nations. They are not known as God's people (in the sense of the Jew) as Hosea says. They are like the brother Joseph who was unrecognizable to his brethren and was indeed now a Gentile. God has two nations of people who he will rejoin in end times (Ezekiel 37). However, en masse, the Israelites (Gentiles) accepted the gospel more than the Jews did. So let's recap: Gentiles who reject Christ are lost, Israelites who reject Christ are lost. Jews who reject Christ are lost (provided in all cases that's the final say as opposed to being deceived but that's another topic). Non-Israelite Gentiles who accept Christ are saved. Israelite Gentiles who accept Christ are Saved, and finally Judaic Israelites who accept Christ are saved. What Davy (and I) are saying is that the most accepting group regarding Christ is the Israelite Gentiles. More Jews than not are not saved. Many Gentiles are not saved, but many in Israel (Gentiles) are saved. These same saved ones bring the word of the Kingdom to come to the earth as a testimony. If God decides to save some now, then great. But maybe later.

Davy · Jan 23, 2020

Ernest T. Bass said:
We find in verses 3 and 4 who "His people" of verse 1 are and God's people has always been those that obeyed him. Paul shows in Elijah's time God's people was NOT ALL of Israel but those 7000 that would not bow to Baal. In this present time God's people are those that obey the NT gospel of Christ. There was just a remnant of at Elijah's time that obeyed by not bowing to Baal and a remnant at Paul's time that obeyed the gospel. Disobedient idolators are not God's people. Paul clearly uses the word 'remnant" and not 'all'.

Yes, but we cannot limit who all among Israel that believing remnant is (even now) just because God kept only 7,000 to Himself in Elijah's day. The 144,000 for the end in Rev.7 should have taught you that. Thus that "remnant" Paul is speaking of is much larger than 7,000, and is made up of ten lost tribe Israelite believers also (probably the majority of Israelite believers today).

Stan B · Feb 3, 2020

Ernest T. Bass said:
All Israel (Christians) shall be saved which is true, saved by having faith (Romans 11:23). Yet not all fleshly Jews were saved, other than a remnant, the rest were lost due to unbelief, lack of faith.

It's so wonderful when people like you come along to correct God, and his inspired Scriptures

"All Israel (Christians) shall be saved which is true, saved by having faith" (Romans 11:23).

You have added to Scripture, with the intent of declaring Scripture a lie, but you, so awsome one have appeared thousands of years later, to tell us the truth. Sounds like the Garden of Eden nonsense all over again! In this instant, I am faced with believing God or believing you. Guess which I chose.

This is a theme thoughout Scripture:

The Bible simply says "** *ALL *** all Israel will be saved; just as it is written" Rom 11:26

Israel has been saved by the LORD With an everlasting salvation; You will not be put to shame or humiliated To all eternity. Isaiah 45:17

“In the LORD ***ALL*** the offspring of Israel Will be justified, and will glory.” Isaiah 45:25

etc, etc, etc.

Stan B · Feb 3, 2020

Enoch111 said:
Obviously this is false, since Judaism (Talmudism) excludes Christ, and without Christ there is no covenant with Israel.

By the same token Replacement Theology is false, since after the Second Coming of Christ, there will be a redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel on earth. In the meantime, all Jews today are commanded to repent believe on the the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

Jews today are not commanded to do anything, other than to follow the laws of the Old Covenant. They are still covered under the Old Covenant and God's eternal promise to Abraham and all of his offspring.

Stan B · Feb 3, 2020

Davy said:
But Hosea 1 to Gentiles? By that Apostle Paul showed that God's Promises to Israel continued with The NEW COVENANT JESUS CHRIST. It's as simple as that. Those who say it didn't are pushing a continued 'old covenant' which is actually dead!

The Old Covenant is definitely not dead!! It was and eternal covenant, the promise God gave to Abraham and ALL of his offspring forever! Many Jews still relate to God under the Old Covenant.

The New Covenant is merely defined as a better Covenant, which Paul addresses om his Epistle to the Hebrews, as one which will never terminate the Old, but as the New is embraced the Old will simply face away into obsolescence.

Enoch111 · Feb 3, 2020

Stan B said:
They are still covered under the Old Covenant and God's eternal promise to Abraham and all of his offspring.

This is incorrect. The Old Covenant has been abolished and replaced with the New Covenant. See 2 Corinthians 3, Galatians, and the epistle to the Hebrews.

Reggie Belafonte · Feb 3, 2020

At the end of the day a Jew as we call people who follow the OT is a Jew, because they follow such, outside of that no one is truly regarded as a Jew, nowadays.

At the end of the day a Christian is someone who follow the NT and called Christians, outside of that no one is a Christian at all regardless.

As to the claims of anything in regards to what some people regard as a race, well that never cut the mustard right from the beginning in the OT, as people were banished, being from a Tribe it's self just does not cut it and never did.

The First Christians were all Israel, servants of God. the others missed the bus for they were led astray.

The only way for anyone, is to come to Jesus regardless. God does not give a cracker who you are or who you think that you are, your race means nothing at all, and I will prove this is a fact, as Bible says that their is nether Greek or Jew under Christianity. so when you are truly a Christian no ones race cuts the mustard at all. that was finished with in Christ, only Satanist demand race as a tool. no such tool exist under true Christianity.

Only idiots peddle such rubbish as ones Race under Christianity, I find such as a great insult to hear people claiming the Race card under Christianity.

I could run around claiming such rubbish myself pointing out my Jewish history line and then that what I will demand is to sit in the front pews and just drag anyone out of my seat by the scruff of the neck and drag them back into their place in the back row, just like they do in the synagogue.

God neve cared who people thought they were or what they claimed to be.
Jesus asks a question of who do you think that he is, and we have to respond, you follow him or you don't, if you Serve him you are an Israel = Servant of God and that means that you are born again. remember Nathaniel and what Jesus said of him, not to mention what he would see ! he would see the Heavens opened up and the Angels descending and ascending. this was because of who Nathaniel truly was, as Jesus explained. and not just some bastard claiming to be some Jew to be idolised or some hob knob like the ones who plotted to get Jesus out of the way, just like they did with all of Gods Prophets that he sent, oh hang on ! they were Jews Gods people ! who killed Gods Prophets

we best idolise them all now.

Stan B · Feb 3, 2020

Enoch111 said:
This is incorrect. The Old Covenant has been abolished and replaced with the New Covenant. See 2 Corinthians 3, Galatians, and the epistle to the Hebrews.

"Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. . . My Covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.” When He finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham." Gen 17:19

NO!! It is not incorrect. God has declared it to be an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And if that is untrue, then God and everything contained in Scripture is just a pile of bogus nonsense!!

"11 And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you. And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations Gen 17.

So why was circumcision and essential aspect of this Covenant? Personal hygiene?? No!! Paul explained this in his Epistle to the Hebrews: "according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Hebrews 9:22 This is an Eternal Blood Covenant between God and Israel, and it shall never be abolished for all of Eternity!

ALL Israel is saved under the Old Covenant, through the shedding of blood for the remission of sins, an eternal Covenant that never expires.

Stan B · Feb 3, 2020

Reggie Belafonte said:
At the end of the day a Jew as we call people who follow the OT is a Jew, because they follow such, outside of that no one is truly regarded as a Jew, nowadays.

Reggie, I find your continuous anti-semitic hatred to be intensely nauseous. Your papable hatred of Jews is transparent. You never quote Scripture to support your hate agenda. In all honesty, I believe you are faithfully following a guiding spirit; a spirit from the dark side. :-(

Davy · Feb 4, 2020

Stan B said:
The Old Covenant is definitely not dead!! It was and eternal covenant, the promise God gave to Abraham and ALL of his offspring forever! Many Jews still relate to God under the Old Covenant.

The New Covenant is merely defined as a better Covenant, which Paul addresses om his Epistle to the Hebrews, as one which will never terminate the Old, but as the New is embraced the Old will simply face away into obsolescence.

Sorry, but you are grossly mistaken, the old covenant is definitely... dead, and no more. Jesus nailed it to His cross. The old covenant was NOT the "everlasting covenant". The New Covenant Jesus Christ is the "everlasting covenant". The Promise to Abraham WAS... the New Covenant; Moses hadn't even been born yet when God gave Abraham the Promise by Faith!

You need to study Galatians 3 more. Abraham believed by Faith, and God accounted it to Abraham as righteousness. That was the Promise of The Gospel of Jesus Christ first given to Abraham, and it was by Faith. This is why Apostle Paul calls all those of Faith the "children of Abraham" (Gal.3).

Gal 3:14
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
KJV

Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Stan B · Feb 4, 2020

Davy said:
Sorry, but you are grossly mistaken, the old covenant is definitely... dead, and no more.

"Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. . . My Covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.” When He finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham." Gen 17:19

So when God declares that his Covenant with of the offspring is an eternal everlasting covenant, you are declaring that God is a liar!!

What kind of spirit put you up to this nonsense?? It certainly was not a holy one!

Davy · Feb 4, 2020

Stan B said:
"Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. . . My Covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.” When He finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham." Gen 17:19

So when God declares that his Covenant with of the offspring is an eternal everlasting covenant, you are declaring that God is a liar!!

What kind of spirit put you up to this nonsense?? It certainly was not a holy one!

That "everlasting covenant" declared to Sarah is... The NEW COVENANT, not the old! The old covenant involved the giving of the law, not Faith. The Promise by Faith that Abraham believed was 430 years prior to the law (Galatians 3:16-19).

Rom 4
4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him That justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, 'Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.'

The Promise was not reckoned by works. Abraham's righteousness was not counted to him by works, but by Faith. This Promise by Faith to Abraham was given first, and Abraham believed, and God counted Abraham's Faith that God would do what He promised as righteousness.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

The Promise by Faith was first before the giving of the law, and the Promise is what Abraham believed, and God counted his Faith as righteousness. That did not involve flesh circumcision, because Abraham believed while still being yet uncircumcised. That is why Paul says it was reckoned in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Then after... Abraham's Faith on The Promise, that is when God gave him the token of circumcision. That seal was to represent the Faith Abraham had prior to being circumcised, that is what Paul says there. Paul then shows it happened this way, Faith being first, so Abraham might be the father of all them that believe, even though they are not circumcised, so like Abraham righteousness might be counted to them (believing Gentiles) also.

Apostle Paul is clearly talking about The Gospel here when speaking of this Promise that Abraham first believed by Faith.

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

The Promise to Abraham or to his seed, was not through the law (old covenant), but through righteousness of Faith.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

There it is. Paul is talking about Abraham's righteousness assigned to him by Faith that God would accomplish him and Sarah what He had promised, even though Abraham and Sarah were advanced in years. So that right there connects this Promise by Faith with God's promise that Abraham and Sarah would bear a son (Isaac).

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him That raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
KJV

That Promise to Abraham and his Faith on that Promise, even while Abraham was yet uncircumcised, and 430 years prior to the law being given, was written also for those who believe on The Father and His Son's death and resurrection. Paul linked Abraham's Faith directly to The Gospel of Jesus Christ by all this. In Galatians 3 Paul is even more emphatic that the Promise by Faith Abraham believed is The Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Davy · Feb 4, 2020

Stan B said:
"Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. . . My Covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.” When He finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham." Gen 17:19

So when God declares that his Covenant with of the offspring is an eternal everlasting covenant, you are declaring that God is a liar!!

What kind of spirit put you up to this nonsense?? It certainly was not a holy one!

Gal 3:5-29
5 He therefore That ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth He it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

The FAITH of Abraham and the working of The Holy Spirit by that Faith is the subject. ALL... those of that Faith which Abraham believed are thus "the children of Abraham" (spiritually).

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, 'In thee shall all nations be blessed.'
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

That was not about the old covenant. The old covenant was given 430 years after this Promise to Abraham which was by Faith.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, 'Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.'
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, 'The just shall live by faith.'
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, 'Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree':
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

There Paul is specific. This Faith isn't about the law (old covenant), because the law could not save anyone, and thus none are justified by the law. Christ was crucified for us that the blessing of Abraham (i.e., the Promise by Faith) would be upon the Gentiles through Jesus Christ. Paul thus directly connects the Faith of Abraham on the Gospel Promise which is The New Covenant Jesus Christ, and that is the everlasting covenant.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

There Paul is not just pointing to the Promise to Abraham about his son Isaac, but all the way down to Christ Jesus Who would be born of the seed of the woman. So this Faith on that Promise definitely involved Christ, and that means The Gospel, and that means The New Covenant which Jesus Christ's Blood shed upon the cross represents, i.e., The Gospel.

Thus the old covenant that was given 430 years AFTER, cannot disannul that Promise by Faith which was given first to Abraham. This is why Jesus at the end of John 8 would proclaim that Abraham saw His day, and rejoiced, revealing that The Gospel was preached to Abraham even back in his day. This is why our Faith is the same as Abraham's Faith, and we are counted as his children.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Can't get anymore specific than that. Abraham's inheritance is by Promise, not by the law (old covenant). God gave Abraham the Promise by Faith first. Abraham was not circumcised, nor was the old covenant given until 430 years after... that Promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

If salvation could have been by the law, then there would have been no need for offer of another Covenant, a better Covenant (Jesus Christ). Thus the Promise and the law are two totally separate things. Only the Promise by Faith can save, and that directly involves The New Covenant Jesus Christ, not the old.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Before our Lord Jesus came in the flesh to die on the cross, we all were kept under the law, a type of schoolmaster, which the law's purpose was actually to point to the coming of Christ to die on the cross and cause those who believe to be justified by Faith (i.e., the Promise to Abraham).

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

This is why Paul then says those in Christ Jesus are Abraham's seed (spiritually), and thus heirs with Abraham according to the Promise.

Someone has obviously bewitched you into believing that the old covenant law is what saves us. That is NOT New Testament doctrine at all! The Book of Hebrews goes further into depth of how the old covenant is no more, and was replaced by Christ Jesus Who represents The New Covenant..

Stan B · Feb 4, 2020

Davy said:
That "everlasting covenant" declared to Sarah is... The NEW COVENANT, not the old! The old covenant involved the giving of the law, not Faith. The Promise by Faith that Abraham believed was 430 years prior to the law (Galatians 3:16-19).

Whatever! You are declaring that God is a liar. As for me, I will follow Scripture which declares that the Old Covenant is an eternal Covenant, You declare the Bible is false! Duh!

And it is under the Old Covenant, the end times Temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem, and the sacrificial system re-instituted. The entire Prophecy of Ezekiel is devoted to this period of time under the Old Covenant which is still valid today, tomorrow and forever!

Judaism or Christianity?

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