...being justified by grace...

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justbyfaith

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You’ve just flat-out contradicted James 2:24, which clearly says we are justified “NOT by faith alone”. Denying Scripture is a sure-fire recipe for false doctrine and false Christianity.

But you have just flat out contradicted Romans 4:6, which tells us that God imputes righteousness "apart from works". So, is not a faith that does not have works accompanying it, alone? What do you propose is there with the faith that is apart from works so that it would not be alone?

Abiding in Christ means more than simply belief - it requires keeping God’s commandments:
“If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love” (John 15:9);
“All who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them.” (1John 3:24)

So if you are no keeping “His commandments”, you are not abiding in Christ.

Keeping God's commandments is the result of abiding in Christ; we do not abide in Christ through keeping His commandments but through drawing up nourishment from the vine (faith in and relationship with Jesus).

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15);

Even as I said.

You have dead faith, right?

Not me...

In other words, faith alone is dead faith that doesn't save - so salvation requires faith and works, whichever way you look at it.

A living faith alone does save. If someone comes to have a living faith in Jesus and dies two minutes later, I contend that they will go to heaven even though their life was completely devoid of works. Thus we are not saved by works; but by the living faith that produces them; whether works accompany it or not. What matters is that it is a living faith. And if it is living, works will surely follow if given the opportunity; however the works don't save, but it is the living faith that accomplishes salvation for the believer.

But nowhere does that passage say that FAITH ALONE is all that God requires from us.

Better re-read verse 6 (Romans 4:6). I think that verse 5 (Romans 4:5) has something to say on the matter as well.

No human being can possibly know in this life that they are eternally saved.

I beg to differ. For 1 John 5:13 would tell us otherwise.

Mainly because we are not saved until after we die and are judged by Christ, who then grants us that eternal life.

We pass from death into everlasting life the moment we believe (John 5:24).
 
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justbyfaith

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To add to the OP:

Eph 2:1, And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2, Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3, Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4, But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )


This indicates that those who are saved by grace have been quickened by Christ and are no longer children of wrath by nature; and also do not any longer have their conversation in the lust of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind.
 
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mjrhealth

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a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” and “faith without works is dead”?
Man will never be justified by "his" works, when a man does the works that Christ gives Him to do, than he is not doing his own works, just as Christ did the works that our father had given Him to do.

We are justified in Christ alone, no man will ever be able to boast. not one.

But many would love to, boast that is.
 
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marks

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You seem to have missed the point of that passage, which is that WORKS (eg, circumcision or the law) WITHOUT FAITH is useless in the eyes of God, but that faith, on the other hand, is worth a great deal in the eyes of God and is counted to the believer as righteousness. But nowhere does that passage say that FAITH ALONE is all that God requires from us.
Hi Roger,

I seem to get this a lot. But I recognize the different between true saving faith, and dead faith that doesn't do anything. It's not that works are required, it's that the faith that saves will produce works.

Much love!
 
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marks

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No human being can possibly know in this life that they are eternally saved.
Hi Roger,

I think you'll find a number of members here that will agree with you, though I am not one of them.

If your words above are true than these CANNOT be true:

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

There are others. One is sufficient.

Much love!
 

RogerDC

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But you have just flat out contradicted Romans 4:6, which tells us that God imputes righteousness "apart from works".
Do you realize what you’re arguing here? You accuse me of contradicting Romans 4:6 … simply because I quoted James 2:24. So, in effect, you’re saying James 2:24 contradicts Romans 4:6! If James 2:24 contradicts Romans 4:6, then clearly, there must be something seriously wrong with your interpretation of Romans 4:6, because Scripture cannot contradict itself.

Furthermore, it seems to me that you don’t understand what Romans 4 is about. It explains that works (without faith) are spiritually worthless, whereas faith has great spiritual value and is reckoned as righteousness. But nowhere does Romans 4 say FAITH ALONE is all there is to righteousness. As a matter of fact, other NT verses say there is indeed more to being righteous than faith alone … for example,
James 2:24 - “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”.
Another example is James 2:26 - “faith without works is dead”.
Another is James 2:14 - “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?”

Other examples are
“And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him’ but disobeys His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1John 2:3-4);
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15);
”He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.” (John 3:36);
“He who through faith is righteous shall live.” (Romans 1:17).

It seems to me that your “faith alone” doctrine is shallow, amateurish nonsense that is easily contradicted by Scripture.
So, is not a faith that does not have works accompanying it, alone?
What? Please speak English.
What do you propose is there with the faith that is apart from works so that it would not be alone?
What? Please speak English.
we do not abide in Christ through keeping His commandments
A few posts ago you flat-out contradicted James 2:24, now you have flat-out contradicted the verses I quoted you:
“If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love” (John 15:9), and
“All who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them.” (1John 3:24)
but through drawing up nourishment from the vine (faith in and relationship with Jesus).
Pray tell, what do you mean by “drawing up nourishment from the vine” and what do you mean by a “relationship with Jesus”?

Did you know you can’t have a “relationship with Jesus” if you don’t keep His commandments? So says 1John 2:3 - “And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.”
Thus we are not saved by works; but by the living faith that produces them; whether works accompany it or not.
Here you go again … flat-out contradicting Scripture! James 2:14 asks, “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?” The answer is “No”, as James 2:26 makes clear by this conclusion, “faith without works is dead”.
But you deny these Scriptures, by claiming that you can have “a living faith … whether works accompany it or not”.
What matters is that it is a living faith.
What is a “living faith”?
And if it is living, works will surely follow if given the opportunity; however the works don't save
Do you actually know what “works” are? If so, please explain.
1 John 5:13 would tell us otherwise.
You haven’t worked out yet that a verse like 1John 5:13 is not meant to be read literally?
We pass from death into everlasting life the moment we believe (John 5:24).
John 5:24 is another verse you seem to have read literally, when it obviously shouldn’t be. Btw, you misquoted that verse - it doesn’t include the words “everlasting life”.
We pass from death into everlasting life the moment we believe (John 5:24).
If you are eternally “saved” as soon as you first believe, why does Paul warn BELIEVERS in Gal 5:19-21 that they’re sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God?
 

RogerDC

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I seem to get this a lot. But I recognize the different between true saving faith, and dead faith that doesn't do anything. It's not that works are required, it's that the faith that saves will produce works.
So presumably, faith that doesn’t produce works is dead (as James 2:26 says), right? If so, it seems to me that you’re contradicting yourself. How can you say works aren’t required when faith is dead and non-salvific without them?

If works are not required, you are left with faith alone. So please explain how faith alone can be reconciled with James 2:24 - “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
 

RogerDC

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If your words above are true than these CANNOT be true:
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
You haven’t figured out yet that a verse like that is not meant to be read literally? If you read it literally, then of course it isn’t true! That verse is referring to the PROMISE of eternal life, but that promise is CONDITIONAL. Only Christ can judge if those conditions have been met and that happens after we die, so we cannot “know” we will be granted eternal life before Judgement Day.

Furthermore, a believer doesn’t have “eternal life” now - every believer will die!
And if we “know” that we will be granted eternal life in Heaven, that contradicts the 15+ verses in the NT that describe eternal life as a “hope” - if we “know”, we no longer have “hope”, but certainty. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture.
There are others.
There certainly are other salvation verses should not be read literally, such as this one:
“he who hears my word and believes he who sent me, has eternal life, he does not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life” (John 5:24).

And here are some other verses that are often misinterpreted to mean believers are “saved” for all eternity in this life:
Mark 16:16 - “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved”;
Ephesians 2:8 - “By grace you have been saved through faith”;
1Peter 3:20 - ”Baptism … now saves you”;
Acts 16:31 - “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved”;
Titus 3:4 - “but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us”;

These verses can be read literally, but only in the sense that “saved” or “saves” means saved from past sins, not future sins. In other words, they refer to justification, not eternal salvation. There are other verses that indicate "save" means eternal salvation - such as,

"And just as it appointed for men to die once, after that comes judgement; so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but save those who are eagerly awaiting Him" (Hebrews 9:27-28)
 

RogerDC

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Man will never be justified by "his" works, when a man does the works that Christ gives Him to do, than he is not doing his own works, just as Christ did the works that our father had given Him to do.
Really? So the result of faith is that God takes away our free will and turns us into good-works robots ... sounds like nonsense to me. If God wants human robots with no free will, He could have created us that way from the very beginning. But He didn’t - God gave us free will in order that we could chose to love Him - without free will, choosing to love would be impossible. Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15), so God tests us and measures out love for Him by our works of obedience - done as a result of our own free will.
Man will never be justified by "his" works
In that case, please explain James 2:24 - “a man is justified by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE”.
We are justified in Christ alone, no man will ever be able to boast. not one. But many would love to, boast that is.
We express our love for God by our good works - ie, obeying His commandments (John 14:15) - so boasting doesn’t come into it - love is not boastful (1Cor 13:4).

When Eph 2:9 refers to boasting, it is referring to works done by those without faith, not works done by the faithful out of love for God, which is “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6).
 

RogerDC

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Wrong. You're confusing idle belief with faith. Abraham obeyed God, unlike today's modern christians. Saul was rejected as King of Israel because he would not obey God. No obedience = Rejected by God.
Good points. Obedience is a constant theme throughout the entire Bible and God has demanded obedience from us from the very beginning - even before the Fall, Adam and Eve were commanded to not eat from that tree.
The importance of obeying God commandments cannot be underestimated.

Re "modern Christian", in Matt 7:21-23, Jesus condemns certain BELIEVERS for their “lawlessness”.
 
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justbyfaith

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Do you realize what you’re arguing here? You accuse me of contradicting Romans 4:6 … simply because I quoted James 2:24. So, in effect, you’re saying James 2:24 contradicts Romans 4:6! If James 2:24 contradicts Romans 4:6, then clearly, there must be something seriously wrong with your interpretation of Romans 4:6, because Scripture cannot contradict itself.

No, there is something wrong with your interpretation of James 2:24. For scripture interprets scripture; and James 2:24 is interpreted by Romans 4:2...a man is justified (declared righteous) before man by his works; but before God a man is only justified by invisible faith.

But nowhere does Romans 4 say FAITH ALONE is all there is to righteousness.

Faith without works is not alone? In both Romans 4:5 and Romans 4:6 it speaks of righteousness being imputed by faith apart from works. If faith without works is not alone, then what accompanies it?

for example,
James 2:24 - “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”.
Another example is James 2:26 - “faith without works is dead”.
Another is James 2:14 - “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?”

Other examples are
“And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him’ but disobeys His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1John 2:3-4);
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15);
”He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.” (John 3:36);
“He who through faith is righteous shall live.” (Romans 1:17).

It seems to me that your “faith alone” doctrine is shallow, amateurish nonsense that is easily contradicted by Scripture.
Here is the reconciliation of these verses:

2Co 5:17, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

A man is regenerated and renewed by faith, "not by works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5).

And because he is regenerated and renewed, he is now inclined to be obedient to the Lord; whereas before this, he was dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1).

what do you mean by a “relationship with Jesus”?

You don't know what that means? I suggest you receive Christ into your heart as Saviour and Lord so that you might be born again unto a relationship with Christ; in order that you might know what it is.

What is a “living faith”?

A faith that is not dead.

You haven’t worked out yet that a verse like 1John 5:13 is not meant to be read literally?

John 5:24 is another verse you seem to have read literally, when it obviously shouldn’t be.

You haven’t figured out yet that a verse like that is not meant to be read literally?

The fact that you don't think that scripture should be taken literally speaks volumes.

2Co 3:12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

Btw, you misquoted that verse - it doesn’t include the words “everlasting life”.

John 5:24 does indeed include the words "everlasting life"...perhaps you are not looking at the same translation as me...I am reading the kjv.

If you are eternally “saved” as soon as you first believe, why does Paul warn BELIEVERS in Gal 5:19-21 that they’re sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God?

Salvation faith produces a transformation of character so that one who truly has faith will not commit the sins spoken of in Galatians 5:19-21 unless forced to (as is the case with pharmakeia and the mental health system).

How can you say works aren’t required when faith is dead and non-salvific without them?

What those verses are saying is that a genuine faith will produce works...not that works are required for salvation. If a person comes to a living faith in Jesus Christ, but dies two minutes later, thus never having the opportunity to produce good works, do they go to heaven or hell? If they would have lived then works would have surely followed; but as the case is they produced no works. If they go to heaven, then they were saved apart from works. If hell, then the Lord is not honouring a living and saving faith.

So please explain how faith alone can be reconciled with James 2:24 - “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Romans 4:2 is your answer... a man is justified before man through works...but before the Lord he is justified by what only the Lord can see...his faith. Even Romans 4:5-6 ought to tell you that a man has righteousness imputed to him apart from works.
 

justbyfaith

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Only Christ can judge if those conditions have been met and that happens after we die,

Furthermore, a believer doesn’t have “eternal life” now

No; for John 5:24 tells us that we pass from death into everlasting life the moment we believe.

And if that cannot be taken literally, how do you determine what is to be taken literally in scripture? It amounts to smorgasborg religion.

every believer will die!

Their last breath on earth is their first breath in heaven. Not to mention there is the rapture of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). So not every believer will necessarily die. And those who do continue to live on in their next phase of life.

And if we “know” that we will be granted eternal life in Heaven, that contradicts the 15+ verses in the NT that describe eternal life as a “hope” - if we “know”, we no longer have “hope”, but certainty.

It has been taught that the hope we have as believers is in fact, not defined the way that "hope" is normally defined. A biblical hope has been defined as a certainty concerning things that are coming in the future.

These verses can be read literally, but only in the sense that “saved” or “saves” means saved from past sins, not future sins.

"saved" or "saves" means being saved from hell. Therefore the verses in question are referring to what is coming, that we will enter into heaven as believers.

God does indeed save us from the penalty of future sins...Romans 4:8, Romans 8:38-39, Hebrews 9:12.

In other words, they refer to justification, not eternal salvation.

They refer to being saved from the penalty of hell.

There are other verses that indicate "save" means eternal salvation - such as,

"And just as it appointed for men to die once, after that comes judgement; so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but save those who are eagerly awaiting Him" (Hebrews 9:27-28)

My kjv renders it slightly differently:

Heb 9:27, And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28, So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The salvation being referred to here being the entrance into heaven and the escape from hell that we will all partake of when we stand before Jesus Christ as men and women of faith.

There is a salvation that we partake of immediately when we believe...John 5:24 is clear on that. There is also a salvation that we will partake of when we stand before the Lord in judgment and are found blameless through His shed blood.

But it is clear that believing is the only condition for it to be true of us that we "shall not come into condemnation" (John 5:24). And that this faith can be ours in the present moment; so that right now we can be certain that we will never be condemned.
 
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marks

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You haven’t figured out yet that a verse like that is not meant to be read literally?
No, you are correct, I've not "figured out" that I shouldn't believe that verse and so many like it.

There certainly are other salvation verses should not be read literally, such as this one:
“he who hears my word and believes he who sent me, has eternal life, he does not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life” (John 5:24).

We definitely have different ideas about how we should approach the Bible!

Much love!
 
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marks

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So presumably, faith that doesn’t produce works is dead (as James 2:26 says), right? If so, it seems to me that you’re contradicting yourself. How can you say works aren’t required when faith is dead and non-salvific without them?

If works are not required, you are left with faith alone. So please explain how faith alone can be reconciled with James 2:24 - “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
Hi Roger,

Let's take your car for an example.

You have either a serviceable battery or not. Either is is charged and ready to start the car or it's not. You will then go on to turn engage the starter, and start and drive the car. But whether you do or not, that's not the point. The point is whether or not your battery is capable or not.

You car battery may be charged and useable, but that fact isn't determined by whether it starts the car or not. If it's no good, it's not starting the car.

There is a battery that will start a car, and a battery that will not.

There is a faith that saves, and a faith that does not.

Kind of like that.

You know, one of biggest red flags for me is when anyone, myself included, says of some place in the Bible, Well, it says that, but it doesn't mean that.

"REALLY??? You believe that??"

Yes I do.

Much love!
 
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RogerDC

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No, there is something wrong with your interpretation of James 2:24. For scripture interprets scripture; and James 2:24 is interpreted by Romans 4:2...a man is justified (declared righteous) before man by his works; but before God a man is only justified by invisible faith.
What nonsense. The context of “works” in James 2:24 has nothing to do with Romans 4:2.
James 2:24 mentions being justified by faith, so it obviously relates to justification before God, not man - that being so, the part of the sentence that says “a man is justified by works” also relates to justification before God, not man.

Furthermore, the context of the whole passage (James 2:14-26) is set by the opening lines, “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but not works? Can his faith save him?” Obviously, James is talking about how faith and works relate to salvation, therefore the “works” he speaks of in that passage have nothing at all to do with “a man being “justified before man”.
So please stop talking rubbish.
Faith without works is not alone? In both Romans 4:5 and Romans 4:6 it speaks of righteousness being imputed by faith apart from works. If faith without works is not alone, then what accompanies it?
Good Lord … why do I bother?
Salvation faith produces a transformation of character so that one who truly has faith will not commit the sins spoken of in Galatians 5:19-21
That is actually completely irrelevant to your claim and your doctrine of salvation. You claim that from the moment you believe, you are eternally saved. It follows therefore, that no matter what you do after that saving moment of faith, your admission into Heaven is 100% certain - so no amount of sinning, no matter how evil or how often those sins are committed, can take your eternal salvation away from you.

But Gal 5:19-21 says you’re WRONG: Paul warns BELIEVERS - ie, those you claim gained eternal salvation as soon as they believed - that their sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of Heaven. So much for your nonsense “faith alone” fantasy …
a living faith in Christ
What is your definition of this “living faith” that has nothing to do with works? Please explain what “living faith” means and how one gains it. Please don’t respond with, “a faith that is not dead”.
 

RogerDC

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And if that cannot be taken literally, how do you determine what is to be taken literally in scripture? It amounts to smorgasborg religion.
On the contrary, when one considers the entire NT in the light of simple logic and common sense, it is obvious that the context of John 5:24 is not literal. Surely only a child or a clueless Bible beginner would read that verse literally.
It has been taught that the hope we have as believers is in fact, not defined the way that "hope" is normally defined. A biblical hope has been defined as a certainty concerning things that are coming in the future.
Hilarious. The words “hope” and a “certainty” are polar opposites in meaning, but you claim that in the Bible they mean the same thing! This is typical of your approach to exegesis - any verses or words that don’t conform to your junk theology are simply twisted into whatever you want them to mean, or you ignore them completely. How is it possible to have a sane discussion with someone who thinks nothing of twisting words 180-degees to mean the very opposite?
 

justbyfaith

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What nonsense. The context of “works” in James 2:24 has nothing to do with Romans 4:2.

It has everything to do with it.

James 2:24 mentions being justified by faith, so it obviously relates to justification before God, not man - that being so, the part of the sentence that says “a man is justified by works” also relates to justification before God, not man.

The works do indeed justify before the Lord...but only in that they show forth visibly what is otherwise invisible...faith.

Jesus is both human and divine. As a human, He looks on the outward appearance; and therefore judges according to works. However, as God, He looks on the heart; and in His Deity He judges on the basis of faith alone. He sees into your heart. If you have all the works but your heart isn't right, you will not go to heaven.

That is actually completely irrelevant to your claim and your doctrine of salvation. You claim that from the moment you believe, you are eternally saved. It follows therefore, that no matter what you do after that saving moment of faith, your admission into Heaven is 100% certain - so no amount of sinning, no matter how evil or how often those sins are committed, can take your eternal salvation away from you.

But Gal 5:19-21 says you’re WRONG: Paul warns BELIEVERS - ie, those you claim gained eternal salvation as soon as they believed - that their sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of Heaven. So much for your nonsense “faith alone” fantasy …

No; because salvation itself is a transformation of character so that the person is inclined to obey the Lord. How then is the person who is truly born again going to commit the sins spoken of in Galatians 5:19-21? He "cannot sin" (1 John 3:9).

What is your definition of this “living faith” that has nothing to do with works? Please explain what “living faith” means and how one gains it. Please don’t respond with, “a faith that is not dead”.

A living faith is a faith that will produce works if given the opportunity. But I say to you verily that if it is never given the opportunity, it will still save the man, apart from the works that it never had the opportunity to operate in.

On the contrary, when one considers the entire NT in the light of simple logic and common sense, it is obvious that the context of John 5:24 is not literal. Surely only a child or a clueless Bible beginner would read that verse literally.

The Bible is always to be taken literally, except when the immediate context identifies the passage as a parable; and except when the language is clearly metaphor or simile

Again, it is written:

2Co 3:12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

But if you don't want to take John 5:24 literally, by all means interpret it the way that you want to. You are the one who will be missing out on a wonderful promise of scripture; and I don't think you will ever have a helmet for the battle for as long as you are walking on the earth. Have fun fighting your battles without a helmet!

Eph 6:10, Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11, Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12, For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13, Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14, Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15, And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16, Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

Eph 6:17, And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

1Th 5:8, But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

You may want to say that you will not have the assurance of salvation until after you die and have been judged completely by Jesus Christ. But Jesus wants you to have a helmet for the battle; He wants you to know that you know that you know that you are saved. 1 John 5:13 also bears this out. But any scripture that you don't like, you will say ought not to be taken literally...

It's fine. Live without a helmet; and fight the enemy without a helmet. Perhaps you will have more of a radius to see your enemies as you traverse the battlefield. Just keep your shield of faith always raised up above your head, is my advice to you; and make sure that your breastplate is securely fastened.

1Th 1:5, For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
 
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justbyfaith

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your junk theology
My theology is not junky...

but your public estimation of it as junky is reminiscent of what it says in Ecclesiastes:

Ecc 9:18, Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.

There is much good (even salvation of souls) that comes about because of my theology. But if people start thinking of it as junky, much of that good will be destroyed.

This is why I reported your post.
 
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marks

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On the contrary, when one considers the entire NT in the light of simple logic and common sense, it is obvious that the context of John 5:24 is not literal. Surely only a child or a clueless Bible beginner would read that verse literally.
Curious, why would you not believe what Jesus said?
 

marks

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Hope in Scripture . . . wistful uncertain desires . . . or a coming reality?

Romans 8
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

God's hope is the deliverance of creation from bondage into liberty. Is His hope wistful, uncertain?

We are saved by hope, for what we don't see, but patiently wait for. Wistful? Uncertain? We are waiting for it.

Romans 5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

We rejoice in hope . . . why? Because we have this wistful desire that may one day be fulfilled?

Because hope makes not ashamed . . . does not disappoint . . .

Tribulation works patience (endurance), and endurance, experience. Troubles in our lives cause us to have to endure through them, and as we endure, we see what happens, that God does in fact take care of us, does in fact make Himself real to us.

As we endure through tribulations, we find at the end the proof of our God, the evidence that this is all real, this is the experience spoken of.

This experience, call it experiential proof, is what brings us to our hope. It's been proven to our satisfaction then things God says of our lives, and so that proof supports our hope for what we don't yet see.

The same one Who promised me resurrection has also carried me through my hardships up to now. So I know He will continue to, this is my hope.

Hope is the expected end of faith.

My faith is in Jesus to raise me from the dead, and resurrection is my hope.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?


We are saved by hope . . . Grace through faith . . . we believe.

Much love!