God's Desire is that All Men be Saved!

logabe said:

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Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." THis verse does NOT say all men were UNCONDITIONALLY made sinner by Adam's disobedience no more than it says all men be UNCONDITINALLY made righteous by the obedience of CHrist. If all men are unconditonally made sinners due to Adam's disobedience per 19(a) then 19(b) must teach that all men will unconditionally made righteous by Christ's obedience and you have universalism. Yet the Bile teaches men are made righteous by CONDIOTNALLY haivng faith (Romans 5:1-2) and CONDITNALLY made sinners by having chosen to sin (Romans 5:12).

Paul told us that death came by man and by man came also the resurrection of the dead (1st Corinthians 15:21).
Isaiah said that Israel was a transgressor from the womb (Isaiah 48:8). David said that the wicked are estranged
from the womb and when they are born they come forth speaking lies (Ps. 58:3).

In the 5th chapter of Romans, Paul was talking about the old nature that we receive from our parents. That is the
reason Jesus said, we must be born again. The old nature has it's own mind called the carnal mind. We received the
carnal mind at birth, because it was passed down from man in the form of Adam.

When Adam sinned in the garden death came upon him and Eve by receiving the carnal mind. What it did was it
made them afraid, because they had lost their unity with God. The carnal mind gave them the sense that God was
mad @ them and that he was going to kill them. So they ran and hid when God came to see them. The carnal mind
will always give us the wrong interpretation of God's character and love for his creation.

God isn't mad @ anyone, but he definitely is disappointed in me when I act out of the carnal mind. The purpose of
God is to give us another mind called the mind of Christ. With that mind, we can interpret the character and love of
God perfectly. No more fear, because God in his mercy will comfort us in all things that takes place in our life good
or bad. Romans 8:6-8 says,

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded
is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:
for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So
then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

If all men are unconditionally made sinners by Adam's disobedience, which is what Paul, Isaiah, and David was
saying, then it is only right for Jesus to unconditionally make us righteous, because we aren't capable of saving
ourselves.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

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prism said:

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:14-16)

as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
(Rom 3:10)

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
(Act 17:30-31)

I suppose you deny the substitutionary atonement seeing you deny we have a sinful nature?

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Anthony D'Arienzo said:

All men ever born have not been drawn to Jesus.
millions have already died before he was lifted up. Such posts are fruitless.
All manner of sinners have lived and died in their sins by the time of the cross.
Take Sodom and Gommorah. All manner of sexual sins exposed and condemned;
19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.

20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:

Jesus was lifted up, all these commiting these sins as well as others perished.

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VictoryinJesus said:

What of Adam and Eve? So you are saying they both perished? after
“All men ever born have not been drawn to Jesus.
millions have already died before he was lifted up. Such posts are fruitless. All manner of sinners have lived and died in their sins by the time of the cross.”

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

What of the earth which fled away (in the bondage of the spirit of fear) instead of the New Heaven and New earth crying “ABBA, Father.”
Romans 8:15-21... For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

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Ernest T. Bass said:

We today follow in the steps of Adam, like Adam we are not created/born with a sinful nature

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Ernest T. Bass said:

Again, in Romans 3 Paul says men are GONE out of the way and NOT BORN out of the way. That men BECOME unprofitable and NOT BORN unprofitable. Paul also says in Romans 3 "Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways:" Infants cannot speak, cannot curse, cannot walk, shed blood, etc. Obviously Paul does not have infants in mind.

When Paul says "none are rightoeus" he is quoting Psalms 14 that does say there are righteous people Psalms 14:5. Paul's meaning then in Romans 3 must be that no man is perfectly righteous in and of himself. Righteousness must come through Christ. Nor did Paul say anything about man being born unrightoeus. Romans 9:11 before Jacob and Esau were born, neither had done any good or evil. Not having done any evil means they were not sinners, not unrighteous. Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) and neither twin had transgressed God's law therefore were not sinners. Unborn they were not even accountable to God's law. Hence infants have no sins to be repented of. Again, infants are not accountable to God's law nor able to transgress God's law, cannot lie, steal commit adultery, murder, etc.

There are a couple of threads here from a few weeks ago about "penal substitution"...which has no Bible basis. The Bible shows for the sinner to be forgiven and justified by God requires the sinner to obey by believing (John 3:16) repenting of sins (Luke 13:3) confessing Christ (Matthew 10:32-33) and sbumitting to baptism for remission of sins (Mark 16:16; acts 2:38) THEN he is justified by God. No such thing as the sinner's sin being unconditionally imputed or transferred to Christ while the sinner sits doing nothing and continues in disobeidnce and rebellion to God's will.

One of those threads in the link below and you can see my posts in that thread:
Penal Substitution is NOT a “Theory”

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Again, in Romans 3 Paul says men are GONE out of the way and NOT BORN out of the way.

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Romans 9:11 before Jacob and Esau were born, neither had done any good or evil.

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Again, infants are not accountable to God's law nor able to transgress God's law, cannot lie, steal commit adultery, murder, etc.

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Anthony D'Arienzo said:

God offered to mankind the first gospel promise Gen 3:15....
They seemed to be looking for the promised seed Gen4:25

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Ernest T. Bass said:

John says sin is transgression of the law sin therefore does not exist unless, until an accountable person transgresses God's law. Infants are not accountable to God's law nor are they able to transgress. Infants cannot lie, steal, commit murder, adultery, etc. This makes the man-made idea of original sin impossible.

Let me explain what I said. We sin because of the judgment that was put upon Adam when he sinned.
So in essence, We have been paying for Adam's sin for the last 6 thousand years.

Any infant that is born will sin when he or she is mature enough to do so, because of the judgment that
was put on Adam, unless you know someone other than Jesus, that has not transgressed the law. They
cannot help it because of the judgment of Adam. 1st Corinthians 15:22 says,

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:21 says nothing about man being born with sin. Physical death comes to all men as a consequence of Adam sinning not because men inherited Adam's sin. Likewise everyman will be resurrected as a consequence of Christ's resurrection.

It wasn't Adam's sin that was spread to all men, but his death, or mortality. In other words, Adam's sin
was imputed to all and so all had to pay the penalty for Adam's sin. Hence, all became mortal. We break
the Law, because we are mortal and that's why sin came by man.


Isaiah 48:6-8 is speaking about a nation, from the time Israel was 'born' as a nation of God's people they sinned and has no reference to individual physical birth of men. God had showed Israel "new things" (vs 6-7) that Israel had not heard, they did not listen at the time of Isaiah nor had they listened to God from their "birth" coming out of Egypt.

Psalms 58:3 David is using poetic, figurative language. If it were literal language then where have new born babies 'speaking' or being born with "teeth" (verse 6). Those "estranged" from the womb (v3) are compared to poisonous serpents whose teeth must be broken. The serpent must be killed as not to spread it's venom, so must the infant be killed? Is David talking about humans or lions (v6)? Obviously the language is figurative.

Also David says they "go astray" which shows one's own personal culpability (not Adam's culpability) in sinning...and not how one was passivley born against his will. Even Calvinist Albert Barnes admits Psalms 58:3 cannot be used to prove original sin saying:
"The words, “the wicked,” here do not necessarily refer to the whole human family........but to people who in their lives develop a wicked character; and the affirmation in regard to them is that they go astray early in life - from their very infancy. Strictly speaking, therefore, it cannot be shown that the psalmist in this declaration had reference to the whole human race, or that he meant to make a universal declaration in regard to man as being early estranged or alienated from God; and the passage, therefore, cannot directly, and with exact propriety, be adduced to prove the doctrine that “original sin” pertains to all the race - whatever may be true on that point."


Paull spends the first three chapters of Romans proving all haved sinned yet nowhere, not even remotely does Paul ever say man is born a sinner. If original sin were true, then there would be no better place than the first chapters of Romans to say such. Instead Paul mentions actions, transgressions committed by men as to why men are sinners. Again, Romans 5:19 does NOT say all men are UNCONDITIOANLLY made sinners no more than it says all men are UNCONDTIALLY made righteous. Men are conditionally sinner when he chooses to sin (v12) and conditionally made righteous when chooses to have faith (v1)

Romans 8, Paul does not say man is born carnally minded.

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justbyfaith said:

This is actually false doctrine.

Faithful doctrine dictates:

Jhn 3:6, That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

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prism said:

Figured you wouldn't agree with penal substitution. You seem to have little idea of what regeneration involves...including a new nature (remember our old nature was hostile to God in Eph?). Which means a child of God would never dream of continuing in disobedience and rebellion to God's Will.
Here is what is required...
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:12-13)

Rather they went out of the way because it was their fallen nature to do so.


Why you introduced Rom 9 into the discussion beats me. Paul is not out to prove man's fallen nature there but rather God's Sovereignty.


Yet infants die due to sin.

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Ernest T. Bass said:

Jn 3:6 does not say man is born with a sinful nature, Adam was not created with a sinful nature.

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Ernest T. Bass said:

Romans 9:11 shows that men in infancy have done no good or evil therefore are not sinners but in a neutral state.

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logabe said:

Paul says it is death. Adam didn't fall down and die when the judgment came upon him when he
sinned, but he did run and hide in the bushes from God. Something he had never done his whole
lifetime living in immortality. That's because he received a carnal mind, which is DEATH. From the time
he sinned, death came upon him and caused him to see God differently. We receive the same carnal
mind (mortality) @ birth. In others words, we will transgress the law, because God has imputed Adam's
judgment of sin to us, which is, (death, mortality, carnal mind). Romans 5:18 says,

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation
to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted
justification of life to all men.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

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DoveSpirit05 said:

Poison doctrine taught by the catholic church!! if we're born sinners and you was 2 be constant with your position then you should have no problem in me breaking into your house and robbing your TV!! we're born sinners right!!

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justbyfaith said:

Adam was truly born of the dust of the earth.

But those born of the flesh, truly refers to those who have inherited the sin DNA from Adam; for that Adam and Eve partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

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Ernest T. Bass said:

On the day Adam sinned he died spiritually (so no such thing as OSAS)

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Ernest T. Bass said:

Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

"all men" refer to the same group both times it is used. If 18(a) says all men are UNCONDITONALLY condemned for inheriting Adam's sin then 19(b) says that same all men will be made righteous by Christ's obedience and you have Universalism.

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