God's Desire is that All Men be Saved!

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prism

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Regeneration, the new birth, takes place when one is water baptised has sins remitted and walks in newness of life (Acts 2:36; Romans 6:1-5). Some wrongly think that regeneration is something miraculous, random that occurs to certain men apart from the word of God, apart from hearing and obedience to that word.

Men go out of the way for they choose to do, not born out of the way.

Romans 9:11 shows that men in infancy have done no good or evil therefore are not sinners but in a neutral state. The larger context Paul is refuting the Jew's argument he knew they would have in God having cast them off (Romans 11) but verse 11 does contain truth about how men are born. In the first few verses of ROm 9 Paul is proving to the Jews that God's promises/choices do not have to be based on physical birth.
I see where the problem lies.
The new birth is miraculous..I once hated and scorned God, was into drugs and the occult but through the new birth I was quickly brought to love Him with a new heart that desires to please Him....then I was water baptized.
Sir. You need to be born again.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (Joh 3:3)
 
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justbyfaith

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There is no such thing as sin DNA.
I disagree with you. I believe that the Bible teaches us that we inherited sin from Adam.

You can teach differently if you want; but in doing so I do not believe that you would be preaching sound doctrine.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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There is such a thing (John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30).

No, OSAS is an invention of man to make salvation an easy, unaccountable convenience for himself.

Adam died spiritually when he sinned which would have been impossible if OSAS were true.



justbyfaith said:
No; because a free gift must be received in order to be appropriated.

Ys, men must CONDIONALLY Have faith in order to receive the free gift of justification. Likewise, men must conditionally sin in order to be a sinner.

Romans 5:18,19 does NOT say men are UNCONDITIONALLY born sinners but must be CONDITIONALLY be saved. Verse 19 is an if-then type statement. "IF" it is true that all men are unconditionally made sinner by inheriting Adam's sin "THEN" it is also true that all men are UNCONDITINALLY made righteous by Christ obedience to God and you have universalism.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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I see where the problem lies.
The new birth is miraculous..I once hated and scorned God, was into drugs and the occult but through the new birth I was quickly brought to love Him with a new heart that desires to please Him....then I was water baptized.
Sir. You need to be born again.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (Joh 3:3)

After one is born again, one walks in newness of life Romans 6:4. THis change from walking in sin to walking in newness of life comes about a result of God's word being heard, implanted in the heart and men choose to believe and obey that word. Nothing miraculous about it. In Acts 2, those lost Jews heard the gospel as prached by Peter, that word (seed) was implanted in their heart and it prciked their heart leading them to obeying the word in repenting and being baptized for remssion of sins then walking in newness of life (born again). Again, nothing miraculous took place, all was needed as the word (seed) planted in good soil.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Nope: it is sound doctrine inferred from the scriptures presented (John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30).


I disagree.

Then how did Adam die spiritually, how were the once chosen Jews cast off becoming lost (Romans 10:1 cf Romans 11;20-21)?

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

The verbs heareth and believeth are in the present tense denoting an ongoing sustained action. As long as one CONDITIONALLY continues to hear and believe he hath everlasting life. If one quits hearing and believing he will not have everlasting life.

John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

Again, as long as one CONDITINALLY maintains a present tense ongoing belief he hath everlasting life.

John 10:27-30
(27) "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (30) I and my Father are one."

Who are the "them" and "they" of verse 28? If one desries to be of the THEM that shall never perish and of the THEY that shall not be plucked out of God's hand one must CONDITIONALLY be a sheep of Christ per v27. But no just anyone is a sheep of Christ. To be a sheep of Christ one must CONDITIONALLY 'hear' and follow' Christ perverse 27. Again, the present tense verbs shows that to be of Christ sheep one must have a sustained, ongoing hearing and following. One cannot hear and follow for a moment then stop and remain a sheep of Christ.

Over the years I have seen those that push OSAS idea purposefully ignore the present tense, attempt to get rid of it or just simply abuse it for it gets in their way.


===================

The Bible makes it impossible for a person to be a sinner without 1) law existing and 2) accountable men transgressing that law.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Which happens from conception and the womb, Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3.

These verse do not say David (nor anyone else) is unconditionally, passively born a sinner. If one is born a sinner then what law did the infant transgress? Lie? Steal? Adultery?

--Infants are not born sinners nor able to transgress God's law nor accountable to God's law, Romans 7:7-8.

--Ezekiel 18 son does not bear the iniquity of the father.

--David is using poetic figuratively language so it cannot be pressed literally.

--You create a contradiction Psalms 51:5 that speaks of conception while Psalms 58:3 speaks of birth. Conception and birth are two distinct points separated by about 9 months. If these texts are taken literally then does one become a sinner at conception or at birth? If at conception (Psa 53) then one cannot become a sinner at birth (Psa 58) for he already is one. If one does not become a sinner until birth (Psa 58) then one cannot be a sinner at conception (Psa 53).

--I already dealt with Psa 58 in an earlier post so I won't spend much time on it other than to point out is says "go astray" which shows personal culpability of one's own sins and not Adam's sin.

Psalms 51:5
--I know someone taking college level Hebrew course and the Professor said if taken literally, the language shows David is talking about the sin of his mother. In the context David is repenting of the sin he committed with Bathsheba. David could be speaking on behalf of is son that Bathsheba gave birth to that later died. Threrefore the sin is given to the mother and not the child.

Example:
In a drunken rage a husband beat his wife.
In sin did did my mother conceive me.

Who was in a drunken rage? The husband
Who was in sin? The mother.

--David could also be using similar figurative language as Job who said from his mother's womb he went about helping widows. (Job 31:18). Job obviously did not literally help widows from his mother's womb but he is figuratively saying that his life was so characterized by helping widows it seemed he was helping them from his mother womb. David is using the same figurative language in saying that man is so sinful and wicked that is seems man was born that way. It could be that Job was using a Hebrew parallelism where he was paralleling his birth (womb) to his youth. David likewise was paralleling his conception to his youth which fits Genesis 8:21 that says man's heart is evil from his youth (not from birth).



--"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity..."

It is my opinion that David in Psa 51:5 is speaking to how men are born into a sinful environment. The world is described in the Bible as a wicked and sinful place and all men are born into that sinful environment.

“In iniquity” – in the Hebrew is beavown. Be meaning “in” and avown meaning - “evil:– fault, iniquity, mischief, punishment (of iniquity), sin” (Strong’s #5771). It is argued that beavown must mean “in a state of iniquity”. This is how the Amplified Bible in their highly prejudicial translation puts it inserting in brackets “...I was brought forth in [a state of] iniquity...” This gives the false impression that “in iniquity” undoubtedly means that David bore the guilt of iniquity (2) . Consider another text where beavown is used: Genesis 19:15 records the warning to Lot to leave Sodom – “...lest thou be consumed in the iniquity (beavown) of the city” (ASV). This is not saying that Lot bore iniquity himself, but rather that he was “in the midst of iniquity”. This may well be the very thing that David is saying. He was born into a sinful world, and he has followed its pattern of sinfulness. "

2 We should note that the preface to the Amplified Bible admits that words in the brackets – “contain ...comments, whether implied or not, which are not actually expressed in the immediate original text...” (Explanation of Arbitrary Punctuation Marks, xv, Zondervan, 1962).
What Does Psalm 51:5 Teach?


----One last possibility on Psa 51:5 -

“In sin” – in the last part of the verse seems clearly to refer to the condition of David’s mother. The Greek Septuagint uses plural forms of both the word for “iniquity” and “sin” thus literally “in iniquities” and “in sins”. That could not be referring to Adam’s single act of disobedience in the garden.3 This is not to suggest that David’s birth came from an adulterous relationship on his mother’s part, but simply the fact that even his own mother (a universal symbol of purity) was subject to sin.

3 The Septuagint is simply a human translation, so it does not offer any definitive proof, yet it does show us how Jews before the time of Christ understood this verse. What Does Psalm 51:5 Teach?
 

justbyfaith

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As long as one CONDITIONALLY continues to hear and believe he hath everlasting life. If one quits hearing and believing he will not have everlasting life.

Again, as long as one CONDITINALLY maintains a present tense ongoing belief he hath everlasting life.

The question is whether the life is actually everlasting or not. If, in ceasing to believe, my life comes to an end, then it was never everlasting.

I do not subscribe to OSAS but to POTS.

This means that we are kept by the power of the Lord. Not that we can cease from believing and thus lose everlasting life (the life comes to an end; and therefore was not everlasting). But that those who are recipients of the promise receive everlasting faith and thus everlasting life. They will never cease to believe.

This has to do with my teaching on how Luke 8:13 applies to a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith while John 6:47 refers to a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10).

If one desries to be of the THEM that shall never perish and of the THEY that shall not be plucked out of God's hand one must CONDITIONALLY be a sheep of Christ per v27.

No one is arguing any differently.

But no just anyone is a sheep of Christ. To be a sheep of Christ one must CONDITIONALLY 'hear' and follow' Christ perverse 27.

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

One cannot hear and follow for a moment then stop and remain a sheep of Christ.

Anyone who is truly one of Jesus' sheep will never stop following Him.

If one is born a sinner then what law did the infant transgress? Lie?

Yes. Psalms 58:3.

If these texts are taken literally then does one become a sinner at conception or at birth?

At conception.

If at conception (Psa 53) then one cannot become a sinner at birth (Psa 58) for he already is one.

If one does not become a sinner until birth (Psa 58) then one cannot be a sinner at conception (Psa 53).

He is already a sinner at birth.

--I already dealt with Psa 58 in an earlier post

Didn't see it. Can you provide a link?

Example:
In a drunken rage a husband beat his wife.
In sin did did my mother conceive me.

Who was in a drunken rage? The husband
Who was in sin? The mother.

I suppose that this is an alternate interpretation that may be valid.

However, the fact that there is an alternate interpretation does not necessarily mean that the primary interpretation is invalid. You would have to prove that your alternate interpretation is the only valid interpretation.

that is seems man was born that way.

As is actually the case.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Adam was certainly made upright; but he took of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and thereby, he brought sin upon the entire human race. This is sound and faithful doctrine; and to depart from it is to depart from the realm of being orthodox.
 
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prism

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After one is born again, one walks in newness of life Romans 6:4. THis change from walking in sin to walking in newness of life comes about a result of God's word being heard, implanted in the heart and men choose to believe and obey that word. Nothing miraculous about it. In Acts 2, those lost Jews heard the gospel as prached by Peter, that word (seed) was implanted in their heart and it prciked their heart leading them to obeying the word in repenting and being baptized for remssion of sins then walking in newness of life (born again). Again, nothing miraculous took place, all was needed as the word (seed) planted in good soil.

Sir. You need to be born again.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:12-13)

 

logabe

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1 Corinthians 15:21 speaks of that fact that all men will die physically (Hebrews 9:27) as a consequence of Adam and all men will be resurrected from physical death as a consequence of Christ's resurrection.

On the day Adam sinned he died spiritually (so no such thing as OSAS) but also as a result of his sinning he was cast out of the garden away from the tree of life and would then die physically. As a CONSEQUENCE of Adam sinning we all will die physically. Infants therefore die physically as a consequence of Adam's sin not because they inherited Adam's sin. A drunk drive crosses the center yellow line and hits another vehicle head on killing those occupants. Those people died as a consequence of the drunk driver's sin and do not inherit the drunk driver's sin.

Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

"all men" refer to the same group both times it is used. If 18(a) says all men are UNCONDITONALLY condemned for inheriting Adam's sin then 19(b) says that same all men will be made righteous by Christ's obedience and you have Universalism.

This verse (as verse 19) does NOT say condemnation came upon all men UNCONDITIONALLY nor that justification comes upon that same all men UNCONDITONALLY. One is condemned when he chooses to sin as Adam. One is justified when he conditionally chooses to have faith. Paul's point in v18 is that benefit of Christ's righteousness in dying on the cross can be gained all who have been affected by sin since sin entered the world by the offence of Adam. In other words, the benefit of being justified through Christ's righteousness can be had by any and all who have been condemned by sin since sin entered the world through Adam. Romans 5:18-19 not only refutes original sin but refutes the idea of limited atonement.

Did condemnation come upon all men when Adam sinned? It sure did! Did we have anything to
do with that judgment? Not one thing. That was done before anyone was ever born from Adam
& Eve. Romans 8:20 says,


20 For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by
reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope
.

Paul is telling us that God was the one that subjected us to this vanity. We didn't go to God before
we were born and say, hey God, I don't think I want to go down there, so I will just stay with you.
Nope! We had absolutely nothing to do with being born in this vanity. God did it all in his own
sovereign will.


In other words, what we have been living for the last 6 thousand years is called the 1st death. It
was the death (judgment) that was put upon all mankind, because of the one transgression of Adam.


But the beauty of it is God in his sovereign will subjected the same in hope. He sent his Son to die
for that judgment for the ones that would believe in his death, burial, and resurrection. What a God!


Not only for them, but he also had a plan for the ones that didn't accept him by bringing them in
through the 2nd death.


What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

Ernest T. Bass

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The question is whether the life is actually everlasting or not. If, in ceasing to believe, my life comes to an end, then it was never everlasting.

I do not subscribe to OSAS but to POTS.

This means that we are kept by the power of the Lord. Not that we can cease from believing and thus lose everlasting life (the life comes to an end; and therefore was not everlasting). But that those who are recipients of the promise receive everlasting faith and thus everlasting life. They will never cease to believe.

This has to do with my teaching on how Luke 8:13 applies to a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith while John 6:47 refers to a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10).



No one is arguing any differently.



1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.



Anyone who is truly one of Jesus' sheep will never stop following Him.



Yes. Psalms 58:3.



At conception.





He is already a sinner at birth.



Didn't see it. Can you provide a link?



I suppose that this is an alternate interpretation that may be valid.

However, the fact that there is an alternate interpretation does not necessarily mean that the primary interpretation is invalid. You would have to prove that your alternate interpretation is the only valid interpretation.



As is actually the case.



Adam was certainly made upright; but he took of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and thereby, he brought sin upon the entire human race. This is sound and faithful doctrine; and to depart from it is to depart from the realm of being orthodox.



1 Peter 1:5 "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

As long as one CONDITIONALLY has faith he will be kept by God. Again, the belief must be ongoing, sustained to be kept by God.

Luke 8:13 "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

Speaks of those that clearly belieed but did not maintain a present tense, sustained belief.

1 John 2:17 "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

Again, the verb "doeth" is present tense, so those that CONDITIONALLY sustain a doing of God's will abides for ever.

John 10:27-28 one hears and follow by choice and can stop hearing and following by that same volition. It is not impossible for one to stop hearing and following and that is why there are many warnings, admonishments to Christians about going into unbelief and falling away, Hebrews 3:12;


Psalms 58:3 new born infants cannot lie, they do not even understand or use language much less know what a lie is nor are infants accountable to GOd's law, obviously the language David uses is highly poetic, figurative.. Psa 58:3 speak of "going astray" showing personal culpability of ones own sin and not Adam's sin.

You say one becomes a sinner conception but Psalms 58:3 speaks of birth "... they go astray as soon as they be born..." which is a separate distinct point from conception which occurs about 9 months later. If one is conceived a sinner then one cannot become a sinner at birth for he already is a sinner at birth. Now earlier you said infants can sin by lying using Psalms 58:3 as your proof. Here you say men are sinners at conception. At conception all there is is a fertilized egg about the size of a grain of rice with no developed brain, mouth, etc. Explain how any sin, (as the sin of lying) can take place at conception. IT CAN'T. No transgression = no sin = no sinner at conception or birth.

The idea of original sin has no Biblical bases. it was not taught by Christ, His Apostles nor any other sacred inspired writer of the Bible. A man name Augustine is usually attributed in coming up with the idea and it was made more popular by men like Luther and Calvin. Again, sin is not a substance that is passed from person to person, it is not an idea that is passed from person to person but it is a transgression against God's law. For sin to exist there must be law (Romans 5:13) and accountable person must transgress that law and then and only then sin exist and a person BECOMES a sinner. If original sin were true then Christ would have been born with it (Hebrews 2:17; Philippians 2:7-8; Hebrews 4:15)
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Sir. You need to be born again.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:12-13)
Yes, the new birth takes place when one is water baptized, then one walks in newness of life (born again) (Romans 6:3-4).

John 1:12-13 shows God's role in the new birth, without God there can be no new birth. But to be born again man has to have to be willing to do the will of God (John 7:17) in believing (john 3:16) repentance,(Luke 13:3) confessing (Matthew 10:32-33) and being water baptized (Mark 16:16) and God saves those that do His will.

"Nor of the will of man" means man cannot will himself to be saved apart from God. Note verse 12 those that have "received" Christ and have the "right" to become a son of God are those that of their own will choose to believe. Therefore the passage does not eliminate the will of man altogether.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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Did condemnation come upon all men when Adam sinned? It sure did! Did we have anything to
do with that judgment? Not one thing. That was done before anyone was ever born from Adam
& Eve. Romans 8:20 says,


20 For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by
reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope
.

Paul is telling us that God was the one that subjected us to this vanity. We didn't go to God before
we were born and say, hey God, I don't think I want to go down there, so I will just stay with you.
Nope! We had absolutely nothing to do with being born in this vanity. God did it all in his own
sovereign will.


In other words, what we have been living for the last 6 thousand years is called the 1st death. It
was the death (judgment) that was put upon all mankind, because of the one transgression of Adam.


But the beauty of it is God in his sovereign will subjected the same in hope. He sent his Son to die
for that judgment for the ones that would believe in his death, burial, and resurrection. What a God!


Not only for them, but he also had a plan for the ones that didn't accept him by bringing them in
through the 2nd death.


What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Romans 5:19 does NOT say all men are UNCONDITIONALLY condemned no more than it says all men will be UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous. Men conditionally become sinners when they choose to sin. Romans 5:12 does NOT say " so death passed upon all men, for that all have inherited Adam's sin". It DOES say " so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" The 'all have sinned' shows personal culpability of one's own sins.

Romans 8:20 says nothing at all about men being passively born sinners against his will.
 
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justbyfaith

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1 Peter 1:5 "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

As long as one CONDITIONALLY has faith he will be kept by God. Again, the belief must be ongoing, sustained to be kept by God.

A living and saving faith is an enduring faith, an everlasting faith, therefore.

Luke 8:13 "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

Speaks of those that clearly believed but did not maintain a present tense, sustained belief.

There are two types of faith. Luke 8:13 speaks of a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith. John 6:47 speaks of a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10). The latter type of faith is unto everlasting life. Such a life can not ever come to an end. The last breath on earth is the first breath in heaven.

1 John 2:17 "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

Again, the verb "doeth" is present tense, so those that CONDITIONALLY sustain a doing of God's will abides for ever.

The fact is, they will abide for ever. This means that they can not ever stop abiding. So for those who receive the promise, the condition will always be met.

John 10:27-28 one hears and follow by choice and can stop hearing and following by that same volition. It is not impossible for one to stop hearing and following and that is why there are many warnings, admonishments to Christians about going into unbelief and falling away, Hebrews 3:12;

If someone fears the LORD (which fear shall endure for ever (Psalms 19:9)), he or she shall not depart from the LORD (Jeremiah 32:38-40). The warnings and admonishments are given so that we will fear the LORD.

Psalms 58:3 new born infants cannot lie,

Your statement contradicts the scripture in question.

obviously the language David uses is highly poetic, figurative..

Okay, let's assume that this is true. What is the figurative and poetic meaning of "they go astray from the womb, speaking lies"?

You say one becomes a sinner conception but Psalms 58:3 speaks of birth "... they go astray as soon as they be born..." which is a separate distinct point from conception which occurs about 9 months later.

It is not possible for someone commit to sin while they are still in the womb, they are still confined by the mother's body (they may kick too hard or something). However, the sin nature is indeed in them from conception.

Now earlier you said infants can sin by lying using Psalms 58:3 as your proof. Here you say men are sinners at conception. At conception all there is is a fertilized egg about the size of a grain of rice with no developed brain, mouth, etc. Explain how any sin, (as the sin of lying) can take place at conception.

It is talking about the element of sin dwelling in the individual.

Again, sin is not a substance that is passed from person to person,

So you say, without biblical support.

For sin to exist there must be law (Romans 5:13)

Actually, that verse says that sin is not imputed where there is no law; not that sin doesn't exist.

If original sin were true then Christ would have been born with it (Hebrews 2:17; Philippians 2:7-8; Hebrews 4:15)

No; because the sin-DNA is passed down through the father's blood; and Jesus' Father was God, who has no sin.
 

prism

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"Nor of the will of man" means man cannot will himself to be saved apart from God. Note verse 12 those that have "received" Christ and have the "right" to become a son of God are those that of their own will choose to believe. Therefore the passage does not eliminate the will of man altogether.
I hope you see the contradiction of your own words.
 

prism

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@prism, do you believe that receiving Christ is an act of the will? If not, why not?
I believe that God will convict a person of their sin especially in light of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Those that are obedient to that conviction of sin and seek relief, God will further reveal His rescue (for them) in His Son for their sin...that would be where they exercise their will in embracing God's Son and Him crucified for their sin. But as you can see, even that exercise of the will was made possible by the previous convicting and illuminating work of His Spirit. (see Jn 16:9-11 and MT 16:17)
 

justbyfaith

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I believe that God will convict a person of their sin especially in light of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Those that are obedient to that conviction of sin and seek relief, God will further reveal His rescue (for them) in His Son for their sin...that would be where they exercise their will in embracing God's Son and Him crucified for their sin. But as you can see, even that exercise of the will was made possible by the previous convicting and illuminating work of His Spirit. (see Jn 16:9-11 and MT 16:17)
So, in order to receive Christ, a person must make a choice?