How to debate the Bible: for beginners

stunnedbygrace said:

I have seen Him come through for me in amazing ways. It was always when I insisted on trusting instead of worrying.

The last 10 months or so have been constant exercise of trust, but just recently, it has begun to change a bit, and He is going after...hmm...I find I can't say exactly what it is He is going after...but it is like this: for 10 months, my exercise has been like a part of what the 3 men in the oven said- my God will save me, see to me, take care of me. But I never was exercised in the 2nd part of what they said- "and even if He doesnt..." and this 2nd part is now what He seems to want for me.

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Good for you, when these men were beaten in the temple in acts and thrown out they prayed the Spirt to give them more boldness, I certainly believe it’s in our asking for boldness, if it is what we truly want

So the question raised is can we live a good Christian life, the answer is can you be weak

You know, a friend of mine has recently been talking about how when God works and moves, it appears to us as chaos. It's not the nice, safe, orderly little...existence we want, where we always know what comes next, when it comes, when it ends, what's next, etc. It really is true that He seems like chaos to me. He isn't chaos. He is constantly shaking my life up though, and it seems at first like chaos...

stunnedbygrace said:

Holiness in men is impossible, yes. Holiness is in God alone. So it makes perfect sense that I don't feel holy and it makes no sense for a man to feel he is holy. Only God is holy and even if a man walks in Gods Spirit, and makes it there, he would still never say he himself was holy. Ever. He would not do it.

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Let me ask you . . . what does it mean to you that God tells us to be holy even as He is holy?

Much love!

Grailhunter said:

Ya Helen, worth more than two cents.
But how do explain to a new Christian what faith is? Why should a man and his whole family have faith?
How is that done?

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You are asking a hard question. It can't be done.
No one can impart faith to another, just as we cannot impart vision.
God , as the scripture says - has imparted a measure of faith to every man.
So they are well able to grasp anything that the Holy Spirit drops into their hearts . When we start to chat to them about God and the things He has done so that they can have a relationship with Him...either something awakes in them, and faith rises...or they choose to use the measure of faith to not believe ..the 'why' of their choice to not believe is where they have chosen to put their faith ...some even have faith in fear = ie believing that the thing they fear is greater than their faith in God. Trust in fear being greater is faith in reverse.

I know what I mean here...not sure that you will LOL

When we chat to people about God and Jesus ...faith rises when the Spirit touches them. ( or it doesn't) ..it's all God...we just drop the message of believing faith on them. And we tell them that God will talk to their hearts and led them...and He will do the rest.

✟

Pearl said:

I would tell them to be open to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, because without him we can't live the Christian life. We need him to be in every aspect of our lives; our prayer lives and our bible reading. We should welcome him into all our relationships and allow him to guide us in all things.

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Ahh, such wonderful simplicity ♥ Refreshing

marks said:

Let me ask you . . . what does it mean to you that God tells us to be holy even as He is holy?

Much love!

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It might be hard to explain but ill give it a try.

I guess it would take a Hebrew scholar to tell me if I am right because I'm pretty sure my concordance and the KJV probably translate the word the same exact way in both repetitions, but I don't think God was saying, be exactly like me. God alone is holy. He knows that.

But that's what I think He WASNT saying and you asked what I think He meant, not what He didn't mean.

What I think He meant was sort of...akin to not mixing types of clothing. Or like...not mixing commonness with holiness.

That's the best I can explain.

Another thing occurred to me. Its akin to making a tepid/lukewarm mixture that's good for nothing or to planting 2 types of crops in your field.

And it also sort of falls in with leaven. Leaven being a mixture of...the ideas of men added to Gods holiness, bringing His holiness down to a...worldly mixture.

I don't know, if you take all of those ideas together, can you sort of grasp how my mind starts to see it? Its partly by feel almost. Sorry.

So, the picture that begins to emerge is that wearing one type of clothing is acceptable to God but that what is not acceptable is to wear two types at the same time. And one crop in your field is acceptable. But two different crops at the same time is not.

It begins to look like...righteousness is acceptable to God, but trying to mix it with holiness is not.

That's the picture that emerges for me.

stunnedbygrace said:

It might be hard to explain but ill give it a try.

I guess it would take a Hebrew scholar to tell me if I am right because I'm pretty sure my concordance and the KJV probably translate the word the same exact way in both repetitions, but I don't think God was saying, be exactly like me. God alone is holy. He knows that.

But that's what I think He WASNT saying and you asked what I think He meant, not what He didn't mean.

What I think He meant was sort of...akin to not mixing types of clothing. Or like...not mixing commonness with holiness.

That's the best I can explain.

Another thing occurred to me. Its akin to making a tepid/lukewarm mixture that's good for nothing or to planting 2 types of crops in your field.

And it also sort of falls in with leaven. Leaven being a mixture of...the ideas of men added to Gods holiness, bringing His holiness down to a...worldly mixture.

I don't know, if you take all of those ideas together, can you sort of grasp how my mind starts to see it? Its partly by feel almost. Sorry.

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That seems to makes sense to me, and if I am understanding, is like how I understand holiness. Single. One use. One focus. One love.

I suppose the difference between us is that I see this a gift God gives to us in our rebirth, that our new person is in fact holy, but that we are so used to ways of the flesh, it takes time for the holiness of the new creation to gain control over the flesh of the old creation.

Does that make sense?

Much love!

I see what you are saying, but no, I can't accept it as a good thing to teach.

stunnedbygrace said:

So, the picture that begins to emerge is that wearing one type of clothing is acceptable to God but that what is not acceptable is to wear two types at the same time. And one crop in your field is acceptable. But two different crops at the same time is not.

It begins to look like...righteousness is acceptable to God, but trying to mix it with holiness is not.

That's the picture that emerges for me.

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Again, I think I understand. I think that's a good description.

In being made accepted in the Beloved, this is how we are saved by faith and not works. Because we have a bad way of swapping clothes back and forth. (in the way I see things)

Our works remain a mixture, hopefully hardly diluted at all, but unless we're to think that sometime in This Life we will be fully and permanently sanctified in body as well as mind and spirit, then our hope for holiness in this life is nonexistant.

However, if we come to understand that He has created us in His own pattern, in righteousness AND true holiness, then we have the hope of the ever-increasing impact of holiness in our daily lives, as we are becoming sanctified in our behavior and thought.

Much love!

stunnedbygrace said:

I see what you are saying, but no, I can't accept it as a good thing to teach.

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I feel like I've gained a greater understanding of you and how you see things, and I appreciate that!

Grailhunter said:

You are asking a hard question. It can't be done.
No one can impart faith to another, just as we cannot impart vision.
Exactly.

So they are well able to grasp anything that the Holy Spirit drops into their hearts .
There are people here that deny the movements and the filling of the Holy Spirit beyond the cliches. Of which I for one am very believing of such things...so many aspects that I have seen. And then a new Christian many be filled right away, but on the other hand I have seen the movements of the Holy Spirit scare people. Maybe there could be an experiential aspect that awaits them.

When we start to chat to them about God and the things He has done so that they can have a relationship with Him.

Exactly, a new Christian....strange to us it maybe that even though we live in a Christian culture, there can be things about Christianity that are alien to someone. Starting from scratch, putting yourself in their shoes, they read "you must eat my body and drink my blood....the resurrection of the dead from their graves....you must hate your mother and your father to be my disciple" Handing them a Bible and blessing them my not be enough. Some could see the filling of the Holy Ghost as a possession. So somethings need to be explained.

Chat with them...showing them a little Christian fellowship could be in order. How do we do that? If they are in our church, do we offer to do an introduction to the scriptures? Is the first step attention? Interest? Can we show too much attention? Who should get involved? I am looking for comments....

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Don't make a mountain out of a mole hill. You don't want them swallowing a camel instead of a gnat ( not that gnats are fun to swallow! LOL )

Questions, questions , questions.
When I was first saved I latched on to a lady , I found every excuse to go to her house and ask her questions..I was so hungry to know everything about God.
She was always welcoming and gave me a cup of tea and a couple of cookies to my kids to keep them quiet.

They can always do what I did, if they have a hunger...
When they find a troubling verse..they can ask.
Teach them to pray first and ask God ...and then leave the door open for them to come to you.
When I finally matured and had our own Fellowship Group...we too always had 'an open door'. Always told them to come or call at any time. ( And they did , we often had a 2am call!! But we only dealt with the genuine ones, not the time wasters sent by the enemy to wear us out)

Personally I am not into 'organized church' ...much much more is achieved in the house ... they then feel unthreatened and relaxed and willing to ask their questions. ( everyone is afraid of having 'foolish' questions when first born-again)
Out for coffee, breakfast etc... This kind of ministry to time and can be demanding on your own family ...so count the cost first before launching into a ministry to the babes in Christ...it's Work...but so rewarding. Best days ...but now we are old....

marks said:

Our works remain a mixture,

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I think, given the picture that emerges for me, that's exactly what God does NOT approve of. At all. I think He accepts righteous men. Righteous men do what is right in this matter, they don't try to mix clothing. They don't say they are holy. They don't try to convince anyone they are holy. They realize and admit the truth about themselves. They have some humility and don't claim they are something they aren't.

The picture that emerges is that it would actually be evil for them to mix clothing/bring holiness down to something less than holiness. And it shows why Jesus had His harshest words for religious men, even words of woe.

stunnedbygrace said:

They don't say they are holy.

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However, they will say, "you can be holy."

Also, Psalms 86:2 may be an exception to your rule (the Psalmist calling himself holy).