please only reply if u fully understand what I am talking about here. If you have a slight doubt of what I am saying or the concepts I am discussing, please dont try to give me answers. It will just waste your time.Basically the Bible claims that God has given us "free will" which is the reason why we are able to do evil.However but it is also stated that the "free will" given to us is something good. Ok, I am not gonna argue whether it is good or not, or even bring in predestination and all that that confusing stuff.Because "free will" is a flawed term, it doenst even exist logically.If u think about it, the "free will" that God given us is the ability to choose to do what God wants us to do or what God doesnt want us to do(which could send us to hell)... how is that free will at all? do I really have free will? Am I able to choose who my parents are, when I am born, where i grow up, how tall I am, how long i live, who my teachers are, ........................................... i can go on forever, all factors that makes me who I am and can determine what i am going to do. I cant choose between any of those things, and the bible says I have been given "free will"??If I dont have the ability to do what God doesnt want me to do, does that mean i dont have any choices or I am going to be unhappy?NO, I will still have a pool of options, just in that pool of options, it doesnt include anything that can lead me into Hell.So please explain to me why this loving God would give me such a thing called "free will".What does it do for me other than giving me the possibility of entering Hell.
"free Will" What Is It, Why Do U Think It Is A Good Thing?
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If u think about it, the "free will" that God given us is the ability to choose to do what God wants us to do or what God doesnt want us to do(which could send us to hell)... how is that free will at all? do I really have free will?Am I able to choose who my parents are, when I am born, where i grow up, how tall I am, how long i live, who my teachers are, ........................................... i can go on forever, all factors that makes me who I am and can determine what i am going to do.I cant choose between any of those things, and the bible says I have been given "free will"??
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II Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God is willing that all come to repentance. As a fair God, He will provide the chance for everyone to come to know and love Him, from those who live in the depth of the jungles and have never heard the name Christ to those that were raised in other religions. This is what the Millennium is for before the final, white throne judgment. The key is the focus is not just this life here on Earth, but to recognize that much more is at work.He gave free will because that's how he works as Father. Some of his children rebelled, and instead of throwing out the baby with the bath water, He undertook to give those who rebelled a final chance, born innocent of woman. The choice is certainly free will. You can either love the Lord God or you can choose to occupy yourself with things other than the Lord. It's basically the choice of short, fleeting "enjoyment" or a long and happy eternal life. It is a choice because you make the choice. This is why God is consistently referred to as a heart(mind) knower, because it's more than just not wanting to end up in hell(destruction).
If u think about it, the "free will" that God given us is the ability to choose to do what God wants us to do or what God doesnt want us to do(which could send us to hell)... how is that free will at all? do I really have free will?Am I able to choose who my parents are, when I am born, where i grow up, how tall I am, how long i live, who my teachers are, ........................................... i can go on forever, all factors that makes me who I am and can determine what i am going to do.I cant choose between any of those things, and the bible says I have been given "free will"??
QUOTE
II Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God is willing that all come to repentance. As a fair God, He will provide the chance for everyone to come to know and love Him, from those who live in the depth of the jungles and have never heard the name Christ to those that were raised in other religions. This is what the Millennium is for before the final, white throne judgment. The key is the focus is not just this life here on Earth, but to recognize that much more is at work.He gave free will because that's how he works as Father. Some of his children rebelled, and instead of throwing out the baby with the bath water, He undertook to give those who rebelled a final chance, born innocent of woman. The choice is certainly free will. You can either love the Lord God or you can choose to occupy yourself with things other than the Lord. It's basically the choice of short, fleeting "enjoyment" or a long and happy eternal life. It is a choice because you make the choice. This is why God is consistently referred to as a heart(mind) knower, because it's more than just not wanting to end up in hell(destruction).
QUOTE (Denver @ Mar 16 2009, 08:40 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70896
God is willing that all come to repentance. As a fair God, He will provide the chance for everyone to come to know and love Him, from those who live in the depth of the jungles and have never heard the name Christ to those that were raised in other religions. This is what the Millennium is for before the final, white throne judgment. The key is the focus is not just this life here on Earth, but to recognize that much more is at work.He gave free will because that's how he works as Father. Some of his children rebelled, and instead of throwing out the baby with the bath water, He undertook to give those who rebelled a final chance, born innocent of woman. The choice is certainly free will. You can either love the Lord God or you can choose to occupy yourself with things other than the Lord. It's basically the choice of short, fleeting "enjoyment" or a long and happy eternal life. It is a choice because you make the choice. This is why God is consistently referred to as a heart(mind) knower, because it's more than just not wanting to end up in hell(destruction).
I am sorry, it is not as black and white as you are describing. And it is not fair. Because according to the Bible, all of us deserves to go to Hell, only few are saved because of God mercy, which is complete BS. (yes ppl have explained to me that this is fair, because God is God, he is giving us mercy out of his kindness, he doesnt have to extend it to everyone, again that is BS, he created us, he should be at least partially responsible for what we do, even parents are responsible for their kid's actions, and technically the parents didnt even create the kid.)God not only gave us a "free will", he also gave us a body or nature that desires to sin.Yes i know all that came from Adam and Eve disobeying and eating the apple.But the apple was the "free will" in the first place, and Satan tempting them was giving them the desire to sin.This is like making someone walk on a thin rope to reach from destination A to destination B, yet at the same time you handicap the person with one leg only and creating distraction all around. And at the same time claiming that YES I really really want that person to get across.And we need to stop calling it "free will", it is really not the ability to choose everything, it is basically the ability to choose bad over good. If you tell people God gave us the ability to choose bad over good, instead of calling it "free will". I am pretty sure most people would think this God is really messed up.And yet we say in the Bible that God only tell us the truth instead of using fancy words to decieve us like Satan.So in which part of the Bible does God clearly describe this wonderful gift called free will for us, and the wonderful positive benefits that it brings to the world.I have been baptized too. But you really have to open your eyes and look at what the Bible is saying with an open mind.If God really exist as a powerful being that is orchestrating everything in the universe.And yet we blame everything bad that happens on a petty lil evil being called Satan(compare to God)It is just really dumb.
God is willing that all come to repentance. As a fair God, He will provide the chance for everyone to come to know and love Him, from those who live in the depth of the jungles and have never heard the name Christ to those that were raised in other religions. This is what the Millennium is for before the final, white throne judgment. The key is the focus is not just this life here on Earth, but to recognize that much more is at work.He gave free will because that's how he works as Father. Some of his children rebelled, and instead of throwing out the baby with the bath water, He undertook to give those who rebelled a final chance, born innocent of woman. The choice is certainly free will. You can either love the Lord God or you can choose to occupy yourself with things other than the Lord. It's basically the choice of short, fleeting "enjoyment" or a long and happy eternal life. It is a choice because you make the choice. This is why God is consistently referred to as a heart(mind) knower, because it's more than just not wanting to end up in hell(destruction).
I am sorry, it is not as black and white as you are describing. And it is not fair. Because according to the Bible, all of us deserves to go to Hell, only few are saved because of God mercy, which is complete BS. (yes ppl have explained to me that this is fair, because God is God, he is giving us mercy out of his kindness, he doesnt have to extend it to everyone, again that is BS, he created us, he should be at least partially responsible for what we do, even parents are responsible for their kid's actions, and technically the parents didnt even create the kid.)God not only gave us a "free will", he also gave us a body or nature that desires to sin.Yes i know all that came from Adam and Eve disobeying and eating the apple.But the apple was the "free will" in the first place, and Satan tempting them was giving them the desire to sin.This is like making someone walk on a thin rope to reach from destination A to destination B, yet at the same time you handicap the person with one leg only and creating distraction all around. And at the same time claiming that YES I really really want that person to get across.And we need to stop calling it "free will", it is really not the ability to choose everything, it is basically the ability to choose bad over good. If you tell people God gave us the ability to choose bad over good, instead of calling it "free will". I am pretty sure most people would think this God is really messed up.And yet we say in the Bible that God only tell us the truth instead of using fancy words to decieve us like Satan.So in which part of the Bible does God clearly describe this wonderful gift called free will for us, and the wonderful positive benefits that it brings to the world.I have been baptized too. But you really have to open your eyes and look at what the Bible is saying with an open mind.If God really exist as a powerful being that is orchestrating everything in the universe.And yet we blame everything bad that happens on a petty lil evil being called Satan(compare to God)It is just really dumb.
QUOTE
Basically the Bible claims that God has given us "free will"
where is this biblical claim ?
Basically the Bible claims that God has given us "free will"
where is this biblical claim ?
QUOTE (savedbygrace57 @ Mar 16 2009, 03:27 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70930
QUOTE (noname @ Mar 15 2009, 11:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70886
Basically the Bible claims that God has given us "free will"...
where is this biblical claim ?John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments...........................Noname, Denver is right on this one.QUOTE (noname @ Mar 16 2009, 03:26 PM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=70929][/url]
And yet we blame everything bad that happens on a petty lil evil being called Satan(compare to God)It is just really dumb.
Nobody ever in their wrong mind ever blamed Satan. Only God... Sad part is, there are people who does not believe in God still blames God for the messed. That in itself is a contradiction. God did nothing wrong.God's Words is like parenting. It helps us to stay away from getting into trouble. And it makes people happy.
QUOTE (noname @ Mar 15 2009, 11:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70886
Basically the Bible claims that God has given us "free will"...
where is this biblical claim ?John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments...........................Noname, Denver is right on this one.QUOTE (noname @ Mar 16 2009, 03:26 PM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=70929][/url]
And yet we blame everything bad that happens on a petty lil evil being called Satan(compare to God)It is just really dumb.
Nobody ever in their wrong mind ever blamed Satan. Only God... Sad part is, there are people who does not believe in God still blames God for the messed. That in itself is a contradiction. God did nothing wrong.God's Words is like parenting. It helps us to stay away from getting into trouble. And it makes people happy.
QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 16 2009, 04:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70932
where is this biblical claim ?John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments...........................Noname, Denver is right on this one.Nobody ever in their wrong mind ever blamed Satan. Only God... Sad part is, there are people who does not believe in God still blames God for the messed. That in itself is a contradiction. God did nothing wrong.God's Words is like parenting. It helps us to stay away from getting into trouble. And it makes people happy.
..... where is this biblical claim ???u frikin serious?the stupid apple in the middle of the garden for no apparent reason at all.do u remember that apple mentioned in the bible?what does that apple do?that is not even the point here, all of you have dodge the question.Why have God created being that is capable of disobeying him??Is it impossible for he to create us that have no desire to sin and will be glad to follow his order.NO, if he is God, he created us, he created our desires, he can control our limits.He made it possible for us to sin, and also equipped with a lot of inner desires to sin.How does this make any sense?Just please explain to me in logic If I have someone walk on a thin rope to reach from destination A to destination B, yet at the same time I handicap the person with one leg only and creating distractions all around. If he gets across, he will be awarded of millions of dollar. However if he fall, he will die.Is it morally right what I am doing?And how is it different from what God is doing to us according to the Bible.
where is this biblical claim ?John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments...........................Noname, Denver is right on this one.Nobody ever in their wrong mind ever blamed Satan. Only God... Sad part is, there are people who does not believe in God still blames God for the messed. That in itself is a contradiction. God did nothing wrong.God's Words is like parenting. It helps us to stay away from getting into trouble. And it makes people happy.
..... where is this biblical claim ???u frikin serious?the stupid apple in the middle of the garden for no apparent reason at all.do u remember that apple mentioned in the bible?what does that apple do?that is not even the point here, all of you have dodge the question.Why have God created being that is capable of disobeying him??Is it impossible for he to create us that have no desire to sin and will be glad to follow his order.NO, if he is God, he created us, he created our desires, he can control our limits.He made it possible for us to sin, and also equipped with a lot of inner desires to sin.How does this make any sense?Just please explain to me in logic If I have someone walk on a thin rope to reach from destination A to destination B, yet at the same time I handicap the person with one leg only and creating distractions all around. If he gets across, he will be awarded of millions of dollar. However if he fall, he will die.Is it morally right what I am doing?And how is it different from what God is doing to us according to the Bible.
QUOTE (noname @ Mar 16 2009, 11:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70956
QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 16 2009, 03:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70932
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments...........................Noname, Denver is right on this one.Nobody ever in their wrong mind ever blamed Satan. Only God... Sad part is, there are people who does not believe in God still blames God for the messed. That in itself is a contradiction. God did nothing wrong.God's Words is like parenting. It helps us to stay away from getting into trouble. And it makes people happy.
..... where is this biblical claim ???u frikin serious?the stupid apple in the middle of the garden for no apparent reason at all.do u remember that apple mentioned in the bible?what does that apple do?that is not even the point here, all of you have dodge the question.Why have God created being that is capable of disobeying him??Is it impossible for he to create us that have no desire to sin and will be glad to follow his order.NO, if he is God, he created us, he created our desires, he can control our limits.He made it possible for us to sin, and also equipped with a lot of inner desires to sin.How does this make any sense?Just please explain to me in logic If I have someone walk on a thin rope to reach from destination A to destination B, yet at the same time I handicap the person with one leg only and creating distractions all around. If he gets across, he will be awarded of millions of dollar. However if he fall, he will die.Is it morally right what I am doing?And how is it different from what God is doing to us according to the Bible.Excuse me, I did not at all write "Where is this biblical claim?" It was posted by another poster... but somehow when you quoted me, it is a bug apparently.I see absolutely no reason to even talk about this whole Adam & Eve and that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, because quite frankly, you will not understand what that area of the story is truly about. About this whole Free Will... let me ask you a question... Do you rather prefer to be a robot, which have no heart and no mind and can't feel a thing? And lastly I'm going to say this anyway, God did not create sin at all.
QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 16 2009, 03:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70932
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments...........................Noname, Denver is right on this one.Nobody ever in their wrong mind ever blamed Satan. Only God... Sad part is, there are people who does not believe in God still blames God for the messed. That in itself is a contradiction. God did nothing wrong.God's Words is like parenting. It helps us to stay away from getting into trouble. And it makes people happy.
..... where is this biblical claim ???u frikin serious?the stupid apple in the middle of the garden for no apparent reason at all.do u remember that apple mentioned in the bible?what does that apple do?that is not even the point here, all of you have dodge the question.Why have God created being that is capable of disobeying him??Is it impossible for he to create us that have no desire to sin and will be glad to follow his order.NO, if he is God, he created us, he created our desires, he can control our limits.He made it possible for us to sin, and also equipped with a lot of inner desires to sin.How does this make any sense?Just please explain to me in logic If I have someone walk on a thin rope to reach from destination A to destination B, yet at the same time I handicap the person with one leg only and creating distractions all around. If he gets across, he will be awarded of millions of dollar. However if he fall, he will die.Is it morally right what I am doing?And how is it different from what God is doing to us according to the Bible.Excuse me, I did not at all write "Where is this biblical claim?" It was posted by another poster... but somehow when you quoted me, it is a bug apparently.I see absolutely no reason to even talk about this whole Adam & Eve and that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, because quite frankly, you will not understand what that area of the story is truly about. About this whole Free Will... let me ask you a question... Do you rather prefer to be a robot, which have no heart and no mind and can't feel a thing? And lastly I'm going to say this anyway, God did not create sin at all.
QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 16 2009, 11:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70957
..... where is this biblical claim ???u frikin serious?the stupid apple in the middle of the garden for no apparent reason at all.do u remember that apple mentioned in the bible?what does that apple do?that is not even the point here, all of you have dodge the question.Why have God created being that is capable of disobeying him??Is it impossible for he to create us that have no desire to sin and will be glad to follow his order.NO, if he is God, he created us, he created our desires, he can control our limits.He made it possible for us to sin, and also equipped with a lot of inner desires to sin.How does this make any sense?Just please explain to me in logic If I have someone walk on a thin rope to reach from destination A to destination B, yet at the same time I handicap the person with one leg only and creating distractions all around. If he gets across, he will be awarded of millions of dollar. However if he fall, he will die.Is it morally right what I am doing?And how is it different from what God is doing to us according to the Bible.Excuse me, I did not at all write "Where is this biblical claim?" It was posted by another poster... but somehow when you quoted me, it is a bug apparently.I see absolutely no reason to even talk about this whole Adam & Eve and that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, because quite frankly, you will not understand what that area of the story is truly about. About this whole Free Will... let me ask you a question... Do you rather prefer to be a robot, which have no heart and no mind and can't feel a thing? And lastly I'm going to say this anyway, God did not create sin at all.
I believe I understand the whole Adam & Eve and that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil pretty well, and done numerous of bible study on it b4.Robot??and apparently u dont read all my posts clearly.here is what I wrote in case you think we will be robot if we dont have the ability to do Evil?"If I dont have the ability to do what God doesnt want me to do, does that mean i dont have any choices or I am going to be unhappy?NO, I will still have a pool of options, just in that pool of options, it doesnt include anything that can lead me into Hell."How is not having the ability to choose Evil make me a robot?Please use logic and common sense, instead of just replying with stuff that people have told u before.because a lot ppl have gave me that response before.And when i actually thought about it with my head, it doenst make any sense.If I cant do evil, I am a robot?ask yourself that over and over again, does that make any sense?and i just want to ask this question again.in hope that someone can come up with an answer for it.Just please explain to me in logic If I have someone walk on a thin rope to reach from destination A to destination B, yet at the same time I handicap the person with one leg only and creating distractions all around. If he gets across, he will be awarded of millions of dollar. However if he fall, he will die.Is it morally right what I am doing?And how is it different from what God is doing to us.(please no typical answer that goes like God doesnt want us to die, he loves us all, it is only our fault for the sins, blah, heard it all, and those answer only means you havent thought about this topic enough, or too brainwashed to think logically)
..... where is this biblical claim ???u frikin serious?the stupid apple in the middle of the garden for no apparent reason at all.do u remember that apple mentioned in the bible?what does that apple do?that is not even the point here, all of you have dodge the question.Why have God created being that is capable of disobeying him??Is it impossible for he to create us that have no desire to sin and will be glad to follow his order.NO, if he is God, he created us, he created our desires, he can control our limits.He made it possible for us to sin, and also equipped with a lot of inner desires to sin.How does this make any sense?Just please explain to me in logic If I have someone walk on a thin rope to reach from destination A to destination B, yet at the same time I handicap the person with one leg only and creating distractions all around. If he gets across, he will be awarded of millions of dollar. However if he fall, he will die.Is it morally right what I am doing?And how is it different from what God is doing to us according to the Bible.Excuse me, I did not at all write "Where is this biblical claim?" It was posted by another poster... but somehow when you quoted me, it is a bug apparently.I see absolutely no reason to even talk about this whole Adam & Eve and that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, because quite frankly, you will not understand what that area of the story is truly about. About this whole Free Will... let me ask you a question... Do you rather prefer to be a robot, which have no heart and no mind and can't feel a thing? And lastly I'm going to say this anyway, God did not create sin at all.
I believe I understand the whole Adam & Eve and that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil pretty well, and done numerous of bible study on it b4.Robot??and apparently u dont read all my posts clearly.here is what I wrote in case you think we will be robot if we dont have the ability to do Evil?"If I dont have the ability to do what God doesnt want me to do, does that mean i dont have any choices or I am going to be unhappy?NO, I will still have a pool of options, just in that pool of options, it doesnt include anything that can lead me into Hell."How is not having the ability to choose Evil make me a robot?Please use logic and common sense, instead of just replying with stuff that people have told u before.because a lot ppl have gave me that response before.And when i actually thought about it with my head, it doenst make any sense.If I cant do evil, I am a robot?ask yourself that over and over again, does that make any sense?and i just want to ask this question again.in hope that someone can come up with an answer for it.Just please explain to me in logic If I have someone walk on a thin rope to reach from destination A to destination B, yet at the same time I handicap the person with one leg only and creating distractions all around. If he gets across, he will be awarded of millions of dollar. However if he fall, he will die.Is it morally right what I am doing?And how is it different from what God is doing to us.(please no typical answer that goes like God doesnt want us to die, he loves us all, it is only our fault for the sins, blah, heard it all, and those answer only means you havent thought about this topic enough, or too brainwashed to think logically)
QUOTE (noname @ Mar 17 2009, 12:04 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70958
QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 16 2009, 11:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70957
Excuse me, I did not at all write "Where is this biblical claim?" It was posted by another poster... but somehow when you quoted me, it is a bug apparently.I see absolutely no reason to even talk about this whole Adam & Eve and that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, because quite frankly, you will not understand what that area of the story is truly about. About this whole Free Will... let me ask you a question... Do you rather prefer to be a robot, which have no heart and no mind and can't feel a thing? And lastly I'm going to say this anyway, God did not create sin at all.
I believe I understand the whole Adam & Eve and that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil pretty well, and done numerous of bible study on it b4.Robot??and apparently u dont read all my posts clearly.here is what I wrote in case you think we will be robot if we dont have the ability to do Evil?"If I dont have the ability to do what God doesnt want me to do, does that mean i dont have any choices or I am going to be unhappy?NO, I will still have a pool of options, just in that pool of options, it doesnt include anything that can lead me into Hell."How is not having the ability to choose Evil make me a robot?Please use logic and common sense, instead of just replying with stuff that people have told u before.because a lot ppl have gave me that response before.And when i actually thought about it with my head, it doenst make any sense.If I cant do evil, I am a robot?ask yourself that over and over again, does that make any sense?and i just want to ask this question again.in hope that someone can come up with an answer for it.Just please explain to me in logic If I have someone walk on a thin rope to reach from destination A to destination B, yet at the same time I handicap the person with one leg only and creating distractions all around. If he gets across, he will be awarded of millions of dollar. However if he fall, he will die.Is it morally right what I am doing?And how is it different from what God is doing to us.(please no typical answer that goes like God doesnt want us to die, he loves us all, it is only our fault for the sins, blah, heard it all, and those answer only means you havent thought about this topic enough, or too brainwashed to think logically)You misunderstood what I mean by using the term robot... but it can't be helped.Well first of all, this is a bible study site... we're not stupid and brainwashed. Yes, Free Will does makes sense, because people will always have a choice to make. God does not make decisions for us at all. We humans can not read people's heart and mind. Only God knows their heart. So therefore I'll just leave it to Him.God's Word is like parenting. God is the Father, and we are His children. Like if your parent commanded you to take out the trash, clean the dishes etc... Would you obey your parents to make them happy and loved? or would you go against what they are saying and go on your own way? The whole Free Will is more like this... Relationship or no relationship? Satisfying the relationship or destroy the relationship?As for the whole rope thing you said, it's morally wrong to create distractions. There is nothing different in God. He uses nature to teach His own children... (if they desire to learn)And yes He does love us, but He can't make choices for you or anyone.BTW, I'll say it again... the whole Adam & Eve, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, is not exactly what you are thinking at all...I'll assure you that. You would not understand what I'm talking about.
QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 16 2009, 11:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70957
Excuse me, I did not at all write "Where is this biblical claim?" It was posted by another poster... but somehow when you quoted me, it is a bug apparently.I see absolutely no reason to even talk about this whole Adam & Eve and that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, because quite frankly, you will not understand what that area of the story is truly about. About this whole Free Will... let me ask you a question... Do you rather prefer to be a robot, which have no heart and no mind and can't feel a thing? And lastly I'm going to say this anyway, God did not create sin at all.
I believe I understand the whole Adam & Eve and that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil pretty well, and done numerous of bible study on it b4.Robot??and apparently u dont read all my posts clearly.here is what I wrote in case you think we will be robot if we dont have the ability to do Evil?"If I dont have the ability to do what God doesnt want me to do, does that mean i dont have any choices or I am going to be unhappy?NO, I will still have a pool of options, just in that pool of options, it doesnt include anything that can lead me into Hell."How is not having the ability to choose Evil make me a robot?Please use logic and common sense, instead of just replying with stuff that people have told u before.because a lot ppl have gave me that response before.And when i actually thought about it with my head, it doenst make any sense.If I cant do evil, I am a robot?ask yourself that over and over again, does that make any sense?and i just want to ask this question again.in hope that someone can come up with an answer for it.Just please explain to me in logic If I have someone walk on a thin rope to reach from destination A to destination B, yet at the same time I handicap the person with one leg only and creating distractions all around. If he gets across, he will be awarded of millions of dollar. However if he fall, he will die.Is it morally right what I am doing?And how is it different from what God is doing to us.(please no typical answer that goes like God doesnt want us to die, he loves us all, it is only our fault for the sins, blah, heard it all, and those answer only means you havent thought about this topic enough, or too brainwashed to think logically)You misunderstood what I mean by using the term robot... but it can't be helped.Well first of all, this is a bible study site... we're not stupid and brainwashed. Yes, Free Will does makes sense, because people will always have a choice to make. God does not make decisions for us at all. We humans can not read people's heart and mind. Only God knows their heart. So therefore I'll just leave it to Him.God's Word is like parenting. God is the Father, and we are His children. Like if your parent commanded you to take out the trash, clean the dishes etc... Would you obey your parents to make them happy and loved? or would you go against what they are saying and go on your own way? The whole Free Will is more like this... Relationship or no relationship? Satisfying the relationship or destroy the relationship?As for the whole rope thing you said, it's morally wrong to create distractions. There is nothing different in God. He uses nature to teach His own children... (if they desire to learn)And yes He does love us, but He can't make choices for you or anyone.BTW, I'll say it again... the whole Adam & Eve, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, is not exactly what you are thinking at all...I'll assure you that. You would not understand what I'm talking about.
QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 17 2009, 01:40 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70960
I believe I understand the whole Adam & Eve and that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil pretty well, and done numerous of bible study on it b4.Robot??and apparently u dont read all my posts clearly.here is what I wrote in case you think we will be robot if we dont have the ability to do Evil?"If I dont have the ability to do what God doesnt want me to do, does that mean i dont have any choices or I am going to be unhappy?NO, I will still have a pool of options, just in that pool of options, it doesnt include anything that can lead me into Hell."How is not having the ability to choose Evil make me a robot?Please use logic and common sense, instead of just replying with stuff that people have told u before.because a lot ppl have gave me that response before.And when i actually thought about it with my head, it doenst make any sense.If I cant do evil, I am a robot?ask yourself that over and over again, does that make any sense?and i just want to ask this question again.in hope that someone can come up with an answer for it.Just please explain to me in logic If I have someone walk on a thin rope to reach from destination A to destination B, yet at the same time I handicap the person with one leg only and creating distractions all around. If he gets across, he will be awarded of millions of dollar. However if he fall, he will die.Is it morally right what I am doing?And how is it different from what God is doing to us.(please no typical answer that goes like God doesnt want us to die, he loves us all, it is only our fault for the sins, blah, heard it all, and those answer only means you havent thought about this topic enough, or too brainwashed to think logically)You misunderstood what I mean by using the term robot... but it can't be helped.Well first of all, this is a bible study site... we're not stupid and brainwashed. Yes, Free Will does makes sense, because people will always have a choice to make. God does not make decisions for us at all. We humans can not read people's heart and mind. Only God knows their heart. So therefore I'll just leave it to Him.God's Word is like parenting. God is the Father, and we are His children. Like if your parent commanded you to take out the trash, clean the dishes etc... Would you obey your parents to make them happy and loved? or would you go against what they are saying and go on your own way? The whole Free Will is more like this... Relationship or no relationship? Satisfying the relationship or destroy the relationship?As for the whole rope thing you said, it's morally wrong to create distractions. There is nothing different in God. He uses nature to teach His own children... (if they desire to learn)And yes He does love us, but He can't make choices for you or anyone.BTW, I'll say it again... the whole Adam & Eve, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, is not exactly what you are thinking at all...I'll assure you that. You would not understand what I'm talking about.
aii, I am glad that you have a such strong faith.And I dont want to debate with u, or make you not believe in God.I am just searching for answers for my question as well.and I have to say that you have not look at this issue with a logically perspective.You are mainly telling me this from an emotional side.Which is cool, but it is not what I am looking for.there are prob more stuff i dont understand.Once someone sorta of answered my question by saying you cant make someone love you. not even God.Therefore God actually does not have the power to not give us free willBut as I experience life more, I am starting to disagree with that statement.I wonder if you believe if we are not capable of doing evil, and we cant be tempted by sin, our nature basically wont allow us.We were all born to want to do good things and enjoy doing them. Is that not a wonderful world?If you dont think so, isnt that what heaven is like anyways, you will not be able to sin once you enter heaven.But why cant God just make it like that in the beginning, and never gave the possiblity for Eve and Adam to sin, and never allow Satan to lure them?
I believe I understand the whole Adam & Eve and that Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil pretty well, and done numerous of bible study on it b4.Robot??and apparently u dont read all my posts clearly.here is what I wrote in case you think we will be robot if we dont have the ability to do Evil?"If I dont have the ability to do what God doesnt want me to do, does that mean i dont have any choices or I am going to be unhappy?NO, I will still have a pool of options, just in that pool of options, it doesnt include anything that can lead me into Hell."How is not having the ability to choose Evil make me a robot?Please use logic and common sense, instead of just replying with stuff that people have told u before.because a lot ppl have gave me that response before.And when i actually thought about it with my head, it doenst make any sense.If I cant do evil, I am a robot?ask yourself that over and over again, does that make any sense?and i just want to ask this question again.in hope that someone can come up with an answer for it.Just please explain to me in logic If I have someone walk on a thin rope to reach from destination A to destination B, yet at the same time I handicap the person with one leg only and creating distractions all around. If he gets across, he will be awarded of millions of dollar. However if he fall, he will die.Is it morally right what I am doing?And how is it different from what God is doing to us.(please no typical answer that goes like God doesnt want us to die, he loves us all, it is only our fault for the sins, blah, heard it all, and those answer only means you havent thought about this topic enough, or too brainwashed to think logically)You misunderstood what I mean by using the term robot... but it can't be helped.Well first of all, this is a bible study site... we're not stupid and brainwashed. Yes, Free Will does makes sense, because people will always have a choice to make. God does not make decisions for us at all. We humans can not read people's heart and mind. Only God knows their heart. So therefore I'll just leave it to Him.God's Word is like parenting. God is the Father, and we are His children. Like if your parent commanded you to take out the trash, clean the dishes etc... Would you obey your parents to make them happy and loved? or would you go against what they are saying and go on your own way? The whole Free Will is more like this... Relationship or no relationship? Satisfying the relationship or destroy the relationship?As for the whole rope thing you said, it's morally wrong to create distractions. There is nothing different in God. He uses nature to teach His own children... (if they desire to learn)And yes He does love us, but He can't make choices for you or anyone.BTW, I'll say it again... the whole Adam & Eve, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, is not exactly what you are thinking at all...I'll assure you that. You would not understand what I'm talking about.
aii, I am glad that you have a such strong faith.And I dont want to debate with u, or make you not believe in God.I am just searching for answers for my question as well.and I have to say that you have not look at this issue with a logically perspective.You are mainly telling me this from an emotional side.Which is cool, but it is not what I am looking for.there are prob more stuff i dont understand.Once someone sorta of answered my question by saying you cant make someone love you. not even God.Therefore God actually does not have the power to not give us free willBut as I experience life more, I am starting to disagree with that statement.I wonder if you believe if we are not capable of doing evil, and we cant be tempted by sin, our nature basically wont allow us.We were all born to want to do good things and enjoy doing them. Is that not a wonderful world?If you dont think so, isnt that what heaven is like anyways, you will not be able to sin once you enter heaven.But why cant God just make it like that in the beginning, and never gave the possiblity for Eve and Adam to sin, and never allow Satan to lure them?
QUOTE (noname @ Mar 17 2009, 04:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70965
aii, I am glad that you have a such strong faith.And I dont want to debate with u, or make you not believe in God.I am just searching for answers for my question as well.and I have to say that you have not look at this issue with a logically perspective.You are mainly telling me this from an emotional side.Which is cool, but it is not what I am looking for.there are prob more stuff i dont understand.Once someone sorta of answered my question by saying you cant make someone love you. not even God.Therefore God actually does not have the power to not give us free willBut as I experience life more, I am starting to disagree with that statement.I wonder if you believe if we are not capable of doing evil, and we cant be tempted by sin, our nature basically wont allow us.We were all born to want to do good things and enjoy doing them. Is that not a wonderful world?If you dont think so, isnt that what heaven is like anyways, you will not be able to sin once you enter heaven.But why cant God just make it like that in the beginning, and never gave the possiblity for Eve and Adam to sin, and never allow Satan to lure them?
Ok I was searching on google about this topic. Typed in why God allow SatanThough most article I found are people who agree or reinforce my skepticism.However I did find an article where a christian attempt to answer the question.http://www.comereason.org/phil_qstn/phi055.aspThe answer was very long, well thought out, organized and logical.However it is not a very satisfying answer, because essentially we are God's creation, and therefore we are expendable for God's glory.And the articles states that if it is for his glory, then it is justified.Therefore it means God can do whatever he wants. It is never wrong.He is above the human moral or laws.For me, as a human being, I just dont wish anyone to end up in hell, YES even someone like Hilter.I dont believe anyone deserves to suffer for eternity.And I believe that if God has the power to, then he should make everyone have the desire to do good.
aii, I am glad that you have a such strong faith.And I dont want to debate with u, or make you not believe in God.I am just searching for answers for my question as well.and I have to say that you have not look at this issue with a logically perspective.You are mainly telling me this from an emotional side.Which is cool, but it is not what I am looking for.there are prob more stuff i dont understand.Once someone sorta of answered my question by saying you cant make someone love you. not even God.Therefore God actually does not have the power to not give us free willBut as I experience life more, I am starting to disagree with that statement.I wonder if you believe if we are not capable of doing evil, and we cant be tempted by sin, our nature basically wont allow us.We were all born to want to do good things and enjoy doing them. Is that not a wonderful world?If you dont think so, isnt that what heaven is like anyways, you will not be able to sin once you enter heaven.But why cant God just make it like that in the beginning, and never gave the possiblity for Eve and Adam to sin, and never allow Satan to lure them?
Ok I was searching on google about this topic. Typed in why God allow SatanThough most article I found are people who agree or reinforce my skepticism.However I did find an article where a christian attempt to answer the question.http://www.comereason.org/phil_qstn/phi055.aspThe answer was very long, well thought out, organized and logical.However it is not a very satisfying answer, because essentially we are God's creation, and therefore we are expendable for God's glory.And the articles states that if it is for his glory, then it is justified.Therefore it means God can do whatever he wants. It is never wrong.He is above the human moral or laws.For me, as a human being, I just dont wish anyone to end up in hell, YES even someone like Hilter.I dont believe anyone deserves to suffer for eternity.And I believe that if God has the power to, then he should make everyone have the desire to do good.
QUOTE (noname @ Mar 17 2009, 03:22 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70965
QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 17 2009, 12:40 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70960
You misunderstood what I mean by using the term robot... but it can't be helped.Well first of all, this is a bible study site... we're not stupid and brainwashed. Yes, Free Will does makes sense, because people will always have a choice to make. God does not make decisions for us at all. We humans can not read people's heart and mind. Only God knows their heart. So therefore I'll just leave it to Him.God's Word is like parenting. God is the Father, and we are His children. Like if your parent commanded you to take out the trash, clean the dishes etc... Would you obey your parents to make them happy and loved? or would you go against what they are saying and go on your own way? The whole Free Will is more like this... Relationship or no relationship? Satisfying the relationship or destroy the relationship?As for the whole rope thing you said, it's morally wrong to create distractions. There is nothing different in God. He uses nature to teach His own children... (if they desire to learn)And yes He does love us, but He can't make choices for you or anyone.BTW, I'll say it again... the whole Adam & Eve, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, is not exactly what you are thinking at all...I'll assure you that. You would not understand what I'm talking about.
aii, I am glad that you have a such strong faith.And I dont want to debate with u, or make you not believe in God.I am just searching for answers for my question as well.and I have to say that you have not look at this issue with a logically perspective.You are mainly telling me this from an emotional side.Which is cool, but it is not what I am looking for.there are prob more stuff i dont understand.Once someone sorta of answered my question by saying you cant make someone love you. not even God.Therefore God actually does not have the power to not give us free willBut as I experience life more, I am starting to disagree with that statement.I wonder if you believe if we are not capable of doing evil, and we cant be tempted by sin, our nature basically wont allow us.We were all born to want to do good things and enjoy doing them. Is that not a wonderful world?If you dont think so, isnt that what heaven is like anyways, you will not be able to sin once you enter heaven.But why cant God just make it like that in the beginning, and never gave the possiblity for Eve and Adam to sin, and never allow Satan to lure them?I'm not even looking for an debate... I'm just trying to answer questions to the best of my ability. You're right, God can't make you nor anyone love Him... that's where free will come in. Every human is born innocent. Free Will is all about making life choices. Especially you are making a choice to reply this post or not.No one is judged by God yet except Satan. No humans, not even Adolf Hitler is judged by God yet.As for the last question... that goes back to what I said before in my posts... although I do not think you will be able to understand what I'm saying.Do you rather prefer to be a robot, which have no heart and no mind and can't feel a thing?
QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 17 2009, 12:40 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70960
You misunderstood what I mean by using the term robot... but it can't be helped.Well first of all, this is a bible study site... we're not stupid and brainwashed. Yes, Free Will does makes sense, because people will always have a choice to make. God does not make decisions for us at all. We humans can not read people's heart and mind. Only God knows their heart. So therefore I'll just leave it to Him.God's Word is like parenting. God is the Father, and we are His children. Like if your parent commanded you to take out the trash, clean the dishes etc... Would you obey your parents to make them happy and loved? or would you go against what they are saying and go on your own way? The whole Free Will is more like this... Relationship or no relationship? Satisfying the relationship or destroy the relationship?As for the whole rope thing you said, it's morally wrong to create distractions. There is nothing different in God. He uses nature to teach His own children... (if they desire to learn)And yes He does love us, but He can't make choices for you or anyone.BTW, I'll say it again... the whole Adam & Eve, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, is not exactly what you are thinking at all...I'll assure you that. You would not understand what I'm talking about.
aii, I am glad that you have a such strong faith.And I dont want to debate with u, or make you not believe in God.I am just searching for answers for my question as well.and I have to say that you have not look at this issue with a logically perspective.You are mainly telling me this from an emotional side.Which is cool, but it is not what I am looking for.there are prob more stuff i dont understand.Once someone sorta of answered my question by saying you cant make someone love you. not even God.Therefore God actually does not have the power to not give us free willBut as I experience life more, I am starting to disagree with that statement.I wonder if you believe if we are not capable of doing evil, and we cant be tempted by sin, our nature basically wont allow us.We were all born to want to do good things and enjoy doing them. Is that not a wonderful world?If you dont think so, isnt that what heaven is like anyways, you will not be able to sin once you enter heaven.But why cant God just make it like that in the beginning, and never gave the possiblity for Eve and Adam to sin, and never allow Satan to lure them?I'm not even looking for an debate... I'm just trying to answer questions to the best of my ability. You're right, God can't make you nor anyone love Him... that's where free will come in. Every human is born innocent. Free Will is all about making life choices. Especially you are making a choice to reply this post or not.No one is judged by God yet except Satan. No humans, not even Adolf Hitler is judged by God yet.As for the last question... that goes back to what I said before in my posts... although I do not think you will be able to understand what I'm saying.Do you rather prefer to be a robot, which have no heart and no mind and can't feel a thing?
I don't mean to confuse you, or put you on the defensive, but I wanted to return to your reply to me.QUOTE
God not only gave us a "free will", he also gave us a body or nature that desires to sin.Yes i know all that came from Adam and Eve disobeying and eating the apple.But the apple was the "free will" in the first place, and Satan tempting them was giving them the desire to sin.
(It wasn't an apple, but that's another discussion for another day.
)Sin is a choice.QUOTE
I Corinthians 10:13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Remember that being a Christian centers around the figure of Christ, who is God himself come in the flesh. He endured nothing less than what we endure (and he was taken up to see the kingdoms of the world, which could have been his on the Earth -- not quite something you or I experience). My point is that he experienced it, and as it stands, he is the only one without sin. He is perfection. He did it so we would have an outlet. Man does what man does because man wonders after man's own lusts. It's not free will if we were unable to rebel.For understanding this from another angle, take a look at David. QUOTE
Acts 13:22And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
David was a murderer, adulterer, and sinned directly against God by not trusting in him and counting his military. However, David loved God and his sins (just as any, are forgiven). QUOTE
Psalm 51:1-12To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
That says it better than I could. The key there is that we put aside the worldly perspective and understand that God is giving us this avenue for some very important reason. God himself came and died for us, for some very, very important reason.
God not only gave us a "free will", he also gave us a body or nature that desires to sin.Yes i know all that came from Adam and Eve disobeying and eating the apple.But the apple was the "free will" in the first place, and Satan tempting them was giving them the desire to sin.
(It wasn't an apple, but that's another discussion for another day.
I Corinthians 10:13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Remember that being a Christian centers around the figure of Christ, who is God himself come in the flesh. He endured nothing less than what we endure (and he was taken up to see the kingdoms of the world, which could have been his on the Earth -- not quite something you or I experience). My point is that he experienced it, and as it stands, he is the only one without sin. He is perfection. He did it so we would have an outlet. Man does what man does because man wonders after man's own lusts. It's not free will if we were unable to rebel.For understanding this from another angle, take a look at David. QUOTE
Acts 13:22And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
David was a murderer, adulterer, and sinned directly against God by not trusting in him and counting his military. However, David loved God and his sins (just as any, are forgiven). QUOTE
Psalm 51:1-12To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
That says it better than I could. The key there is that we put aside the worldly perspective and understand that God is giving us this avenue for some very important reason. God himself came and died for us, for some very, very important reason.
Free will is essential because of love. Love cannot be constrained. It must be freely given or it isn't love. God made us as objects of his love. He wants love in return from us. For it to mean anything we must choose to give it of our own free will.It is the same with returning to him. He does not want us to come out of fear of Hell but out of love. We are obedient not because we fear the consequences, but because we love God. Everything including our salvation hinges on love.Romans 5: 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
WhiteKnuckle
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I should get some scripture for this answer. I may have to rely on someone else for this, but if need be, I'll get them (it just takes me longer)I once read in a book a pretty good example. The chapter is long, but the gist of it is this.If we are not in Christ we have free will. We can will to do what ever we want, lie, cheat, steal, murder, rape, (not that a normal person would go that route) whatever we want to do. It's a veritable free for all, Just do what makes you feel good. Make your own choices for everything, Hey, you wanna get drunk, get drunk, you wanna go to a strip club, eh, go ahead, no problem. If we are in Christ, we don't have free will. (although there are those on this board that will argue this with me) The reason those of us in Christ have no free will is because our will is transformed to Christ's will. After we are born again, our will is regenerated and turned to his will. Basically, we could still do what we want theroreticaly, however, since we now have "the mind of Christ" we "choose" not to do what we would normaly do before we believe.Without arguing predestination, If anyone hears the call from God, they then have a choice to head or ignore at that point.
QUOTE (WhiteKnuckle @ Apr 4 2009, 09:45 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71828
I should get some scripture for this answer. I may have to rely on someone else for this, but if need be, I'll get them (it just takes me longer)I once read in a book a pretty good example. The chapter is long, but the gist of it is this.If we are not in Christ we have free will. We can will to do what ever we want, lie, cheat, steal, murder, rape, (not that a normal person would go that route) whatever we want to do. It's a veritable free for all, Just do what makes you feel good. Make your own choices for everything, Hey, you wanna get drunk, get drunk, you wanna go to a strip club, eh, go ahead, no problem. If we are in Christ, we don't have free will. (although there are those on this board that will argue this with me) The reason those of us in Christ have no free will is because our will is transformed to Christ's will. After we are born again, our will is regenerated and turned to his will. Basically, we could still do what we want theroreticaly, however, since we now have "the mind of Christ" we "choose" not to do what we would normaly do before we believe.Without arguing predestination, If anyone hears the call from God, they then have a choice to head or ignore at that point.
Uh no, that is a clear contradiction. God does not take away one's free will, regardless if they are in Christ or not. John 3:16 and John 14:15 proves that God can't take away free will... And to betray Christ is what apostasy is. (II Thessalonians 2:3-4)
I should get some scripture for this answer. I may have to rely on someone else for this, but if need be, I'll get them (it just takes me longer)I once read in a book a pretty good example. The chapter is long, but the gist of it is this.If we are not in Christ we have free will. We can will to do what ever we want, lie, cheat, steal, murder, rape, (not that a normal person would go that route) whatever we want to do. It's a veritable free for all, Just do what makes you feel good. Make your own choices for everything, Hey, you wanna get drunk, get drunk, you wanna go to a strip club, eh, go ahead, no problem. If we are in Christ, we don't have free will. (although there are those on this board that will argue this with me) The reason those of us in Christ have no free will is because our will is transformed to Christ's will. After we are born again, our will is regenerated and turned to his will. Basically, we could still do what we want theroreticaly, however, since we now have "the mind of Christ" we "choose" not to do what we would normaly do before we believe.Without arguing predestination, If anyone hears the call from God, they then have a choice to head or ignore at that point.
Uh no, that is a clear contradiction. God does not take away one's free will, regardless if they are in Christ or not. John 3:16 and John 14:15 proves that God can't take away free will... And to betray Christ is what apostasy is. (II Thessalonians 2:3-4)
WhiteKnuckle
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QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 4 2009, 09:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71829
Uh no, that is a clear contradiction. God does not take away one's free will, regardless if they are in Christ or not. John 3:16 and John 14:15 proves that God can't take away free will... And to betray Christ is what apostasy is. (II Thessalonians 2:3-4)
As stated, I'm sure someone would disagree, (specificaly thinking of you
. But if we are "one in Christ" and are being "transformed to the likeness of Christ" and the "renewal of our mind" Perhaps I should've stated it differently. We, willingly "give" our will over to the will of Christ. In so doing become obedient. So, technically we have no "free will" considering our desire has been turned over to do Gods will. Does that make sense?
Uh no, that is a clear contradiction. God does not take away one's free will, regardless if they are in Christ or not. John 3:16 and John 14:15 proves that God can't take away free will... And to betray Christ is what apostasy is. (II Thessalonians 2:3-4)
As stated, I'm sure someone would disagree, (specificaly thinking of you
QUOTE (WhiteKnuckle @ Apr 4 2009, 10:18 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71830
QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 4 2009, 09:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71829
Uh no, that is a clear contradiction. God does not take away one's free will, regardless if they are in Christ or not. John 3:16 and John 14:15 proves that God can't take away free will... And to betray Christ is what apostasy is. (II Thessalonians 2:3-4)
As stated, I'm sure someone would disagree, (specificaly thinking of you
. But if we are "one in Christ" and are being "transformed to the likeness of Christ" and the "renewal of our mind" Perhaps I should've stated it differently. We, willingly "give" our will over to the will of Christ. In so doing become obedient. So, technically we have no "free will" considering our desire has been turned over to do Gods will. Does that make sense?Yea, but believers can still betray God... so no, it doesn't make sense, because we still sin... but true believers don't sin willingly. It only make sense that we have free will.
QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 4 2009, 09:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71829
Uh no, that is a clear contradiction. God does not take away one's free will, regardless if they are in Christ or not. John 3:16 and John 14:15 proves that God can't take away free will... And to betray Christ is what apostasy is. (II Thessalonians 2:3-4)
As stated, I'm sure someone would disagree, (specificaly thinking of you
WhiteKnuckle
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QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 4 2009, 11:04 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71831
As stated, I'm sure someone would disagree, (specificaly thinking of you
. But if we are "one in Christ" and are being "transformed to the likeness of Christ" and the "renewal of our mind" Perhaps I should've stated it differently. We, willingly "give" our will over to the will of Christ. In so doing become obedient. So, technically we have no "free will" considering our desire has been turned over to do Gods will. Does that make sense?Yea, but believers can still betray God... so no, it doesn't make sense, because we still sin... but true believers don't sin willingly. It only make sense that we have free will.
Maybe we should put this on another post outside of this one. I think this would be a good study. I think we're in agreement, you're just not understanding the way I'm saying it.
As stated, I'm sure someone would disagree, (specificaly thinking of you
Maybe we should put this on another post outside of this one. I think this would be a good study. I think we're in agreement, you're just not understanding the way I'm saying it.
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