Revelation 7: The Tribes

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TallMan

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What are your thoughts on why Ephraim and Dan aren't mentioned, but Joseph and Manasseh are?John Fox says it's because Manasseh is incorrectly translated, it should read Dan.
 

Jordan

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QUOTE (TallMan @ Mar 16 2009, 06:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70943
What are your thoughts on why Ephraim and Dan aren't mentioned, but Joseph and Manasseh are?John Fox says it's because Manasseh is incorrectly translated, it should read Dan.
The reason the tribe of Dan is not mentioned is because of this... it says that Dan shall be a serpent (Genesis 49:17) I haven't gotten into the details... but that is the start I believe.Manasseh belongs to Joseph... the same goes with Ephraim, that also belongs to Joseph.
 

TallMan

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I had always tought that Dan didn't need to be sealed because it was a sea-faring tribe.But this doesn't explain how they also left their mark accross continental Europe.Also why would it list Manasseh as well as Joseph?
 

whirlwind

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QUOTE (TallMan @ Mar 16 2009, 06:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70943
What are your thoughts on why Ephraim and Dan aren't mentioned, but Joseph and Manasseh are?John Fox says it's because Manasseh is incorrectly translated, it should read Dan.
Hi Tall Man....this is an interesting topic but it's too late for me.
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Time to watch a movie and have some popcorn. But, I look forward to seeing what has been added to the topic in the morning. I love information on the tribes.
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Jordan

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QUOTE (TallMan @ Mar 16 2009, 06:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70946
I had always tought that Dan didn't need to be sealed because it was a sea-faring tribe.But this doesn't explain how they also left their mark accross continental Europe.Also why would it list Manasseh as well as Joseph?
From the starting point of Dan... I do believe that the tribe of Dan rebel against God... because serpent is a symbolic name for Satan.Genesis 46:20 - And unto Joseph in the land of Egypt were born Manasseh and Ephraim, which Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On bare unto him.Genesis 48:1 - And it came to pass after these things, that one told Joseph, Behold, thy father is sick: and he took with him his two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.
 

Vickie

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QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 16 2009, 06:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70944
The reason the tribe of Dan is not mentioned is because of this... it says that Dan shall be a serpent (Genesis 49:17) I haven't gotten into the details... but that is the start I believe.Manasseh belongs to Joseph... the same goes with Ephraim, that also belongs to Joseph.
Gen. 49:1 Jacob called his sons,that he may tell them what will befall them in "THE LAST DAYS". All the tribe are spoken of in this chapter and what they will be faced with. Dan will be faced with this Gen 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. 17.) Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adderb in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. 18.) I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD. The term serpent is used not meaning Satan for Dan. It is saying that Dan will be providing JUSTICE for his people in the Kingdom.NIV) Gen 49:16 Dan will provide justice for his people as one of the TRIBES of ISRAEL. 17.) Dan will be a serpent by the roadside, a viper along the path, that bites the horse's heel so that the rider tumbles backward. This is descriptive of the event that Dan will be doing in the LAST DAYS that bring in Christ. This is a prophecy from God of what Dan will be doing, Dan has favor with God in the Last Days. IN Christ's precious words VickieQUOTE (TallMan @ Mar 16 2009, 06:25 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70943
What are your thoughts on why Ephraim and Dan aren't mentioned, but Joseph and Manasseh are?John Fox says it's because Manasseh is incorrectly translated, it should read Dan.
Could John Fox give the information that proves this mistake? I'd like to examine it.ThanksVickie
 

Jordan

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QUOTE (Vickie @ Mar 16 2009, 10:22 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70952
QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 16 2009, 06:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70944
The reason the tribe of Dan is not mentioned is because of this... it says that Dan shall be a serpent (Genesis 49:17) I haven't gotten into the details... but that is the start I believe.Manasseh belongs to Joseph... the same goes with Ephraim, that also belongs to Joseph.
Gen. 49:1 Jacob called his sons,that he may tell them what will befall them in "THE LAST DAYS". All the tribe are spoken of in this chapter and what they will be faced with. Dan will be faced with this Gen 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. 17.) Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adderb in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. 18.) I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD. The term serpent is used not meaning Satan for Dan. It is saying that Dan will be providing JUSTICE for his people in the Kingdom.NIV) Gen 49:16 Dan will provide justice for his people as one of the TRIBES of ISRAEL. 17.) Dan will be a serpent by the roadside, a viper along the path, that bites the horse's heel so that the rider tumbles backward. This is descriptive of the event that Dan will be doing in the LAST DAYS that bring in Christ. This is a prophecy from God of what Dan will be doing, Dan has favor with God in the Last Days. IN Christ's precious words VickieI never said Dan is Satan... but I said that serpent is a symbolic name for Satan, so I am saying that Because of Genesis 47:17 saying Dan shall be a serpent... I assume Dan had rebel against God. As far I am aware, God never use the word serpent for Himself. Eh, it doesn't sound right at all to me... but I will study though...
 

Christina

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QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 16 2009, 08:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70953
Gen. 49:1 Jacob called his sons,that he may tell them what will befall them in "THE LAST DAYS". All the tribe are spoken of in this chapter and what they will be faced with. Dan will be faced with this Gen 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. 17.) Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adderb in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. 18.) I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD. The term serpent is used not meaning Satan for Dan. It is saying that Dan will be providing JUSTICE for his people in the Kingdom.NIV) Gen 49:16 Dan will provide justice for his people as one of the TRIBES of ISRAEL. 17.) Dan will be a serpent by the roadside, a viper along the path, that bites the horse's heel so that the rider tumbles backward. This is descriptive of the event that Dan will be doing in the LAST DAYS that bring in Christ. This is a prophecy from God of what Dan will be doing, Dan has favor with God in the Last Days. IN Christ's precious words VickieEphraim is mentioned quite prominently in prophecy Ephraim w/ Mannash brothers as you probably know In fact Ephraim and Mannash are the Briton and the U.S. in prophecy It was to These two sons of Joseph that the Birthright went while Judah kept the scepter (read Eze. 37 about the two sticks being joined after Christs return you will see Ephraim is very much a part of things.
 

Jordan

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QUOTE (Christina @ Mar 16 2009, 10:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70954
Ephraim is mentioned quite prominately in prophecy Ephraim w/ Mannash brothers as you probably know In fact Ephraim and Mannash are the Briton and the U.S. in prophecy It was to These two sons of Joseph that the Birthright went while Judah kept the scepter (read Eze. 37 about the two sticks being joined after Christs return you will see Ephraim is very much a part of things.
Christina, are you sure you are hitting the right quote? That quote was about Dan... not Joseph... Ephraim and Manasseh. And I know about Ezekiel 37.
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Ezekiel 37:15 - The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,Ezekiel 37:16 - Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:Ezekiel 37:17 - And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.Ezekiel 37:18 - And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?Ezekiel 37:19 - Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
 

TallMan

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"Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward" (Genesis 49:17), and "Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone" (Hosea 4:17). Deborah in Judges 5:15 “ why did Dan remain in ships?”
 

Christina

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Tallman Eze. 37 as quoted above by Jordan is future ... Ephraim and Mannassh are Briton and Usa .... They are part of the scattered ten tribes .... And God divorced Israel (the 10 lost tribes ) for there sins. On the other hand contrary to poplar Belief God never divorced Judah but rather kept them as remenaut to preserve the Law ... This is along complicated story that threads through the Entire bible from Gen to Rev. You can read of this here: http://reluctant-messenger.com/judahs_sceptre_101.htmIt will give you a greater understanding of this Dan fell into Idol worship I have a threory about Dan I will share but remember this my own thoughts reading between the lines If we look at the story od Samson ..We see his srenthgh was in his hair ... This is not a normal human trait Now Samson was from the tribe of Dan ... So if Samson was from a bloodline that had mixed with the Fallen Angels Angels (and daughters of men) ... This could explain his unhuman traits ... It might also show that the tribe of Dan at some point was mixing with the second influx of fallen Angels.heres a link with some info. http://www.learnthebible.org/the-absence-o...ibe-of-dan.html
 

jtartar

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What are your thoughts on why Ephraim and Dan aren't mentioned, but Joseph and Manasseh are?John Fox says it's because Manasseh is incorrectly translated, it should read Dan.
TallMan,Many Bible scholars believe that this list is meant to include, not only the Jewish people, but people of all the nations. WHY THINK THAT??? The Bible tells us that the Kings and Priests will be from all nations Rev 5:9,10. The Bible tells us that God meant for all the nations to be blessed because of Abraham,in time, Gen 22:18, Gal 3:7-9, Eph 3:3-6. When speaking to the Ephesians, who were gentiles, Paul told them that they were now members of the household of God. The scriptures tell us clearly that people from both Jews and gentiles would be called, 1Cor 1:24,Rom 9:24-26. These make up the household of God, Eph 2:11-13,19,20.
 

Vickie

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It becomes clear the only answer anyone can give is speculation. Ephraim is very much not mentioned nor is Ephraim a part of the 144000. Could you provide just how the name Manasseh was wrongly translated? Thanks
 

Jordan

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It becomes clear the only answer anyone can give is speculation. Ephraim is very much not mentioned nor is Ephraim a part of the 144000. Could you provide just how the name Manasseh was wrongly translated? Thanks
Hi there Vickie.
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Revelation 7:6 - Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.Revelation 7:8 - Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.As you can see from those two verses, The tribe of Manasseh is sealed 12,000... and Manasseh is Joseph firstborn son. Don't you think that Ephraim is a right hand picked by Israel himself will be sealed also? Joseph alone can't seal 12,000... so it only can be sealed by seedline... so to exclude Ephraim, who is picked by Jacob who is later named Israel, from the tribe of Joseph will lead one in error in understanding this importance significance in God's precious Words.Genesis 48:13 - And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought them near unto him.Genesis 48:14 - And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
 

BenTobijah

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When in doubt, look at the languages
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The word used in Rev 7:6 is Manasses, the word in Rev 7:8 IS Joseph G2501G3128ΜανασσῆςManassēsman-as-sace'Of Hebrew origin [H4519]; Manasses (that is, Menashsheh), an Israelite: - Manasses.H4519מנשּׁהmenashshehmen-ash-sheh'From H5382; causing to forget; Menashsheh, a grandson of jacob, also the tribe descendant from him, and its territory: - Manasseh.Joseph G2501 G2501ἸωσήφIōsēphee-o-safe'Of Hebrew origin [H3130]; Joseph, the name of seven Israelites: - Joseph. H3130יוסףyôsêphyo-safe'Future of H3254; let him add (or perhaps simply active participle adding); Joseph, the name of seven Israelites: - Joseph. Compare H3084.Dan H1835 H1835דּןdândawnFrom H1777; judge; Dan, one of the sons of Jacob; also the tribe descended from him, and its territory; likewise a place in Palestine colonized by them: - Dan.
 

Vickie

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Hello Jordan, thanks for entering into this response with me. Ephraim is not a part of Manasseh in Revelation 7 and that is just the facts to try to say they are when God clearly did not write Ephraim's name down and Ephraim is not included or God would have documented it to make it known.In fact Levi was placed into the category of servants to God making it twelve. There is a reason why Dan is not listed though different from Ephraim. The bible will make it known if searched out. Jer 7:15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim. Jer 7 appears to be of the prophecy of the End and God's affliction and Wrath on them as well as Judah, but specificallyEphraim. God appears to have placed Levi in Ephraim's place to make the 144000 to be sealed in the End before he appears. Ephraim hasdone great evil in th sight of the Lord. Reading chapter 7 is an end time prophecy of the End. For me this explains why Ephraim will not be sealed but suffer exactly what the verses below prophecy for Ephraim. Jeremiah 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee. 17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queena of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. 19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.Ephraim is going to be facing the Lord's wrath and fury that will be poured out and his fury shall NOT BE QUENCHED This could by why Ephraim is not written in Revelation 7.
 

Jordan

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Hello Jordan, thanks for entering into this response with me. Ephraim is not a part of Manasseh in Revelation 7 and that is just the facts to try to say they are when God clearly did not write Ephraim's name down and Ephraim is not included or God would have documented it to make it known.In fact Levi was placed into the Jer 7:15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim. Jer 7 appears to be of the prophecy of the End and God's affliction and Wrath on them as well as Judah, but specificallyEphraim. God appears to have placed Levi in Ephraim's place to make the 144000 to be sealed in the End before he appears. Ephraim hasdone great evil in th sight of the Lord. Reading chapter 7 is an end time prophecy of the End. For me this explains why Ephraim will not be sealed but suffer exactly what the verses below prophecy for Ephraim. 16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee. 17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queena of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. 19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? 20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.Ephraim is going to be facing the Lord's wrath and fury that will be poured out and his fury shall NOT BE QUENCHED This could by why Ephraim is not written in Revelation 7.
Hi there Vickie.Where did I say in my post that Ephraim was part of Manasseh? I said Ephraim and Manasseh are part of Joseph. Why? Because Ephraim and Manasseh are both sons of Joseph. Manasseh being the firstborn. So I'll ask you again, since scripture of Revelation 7:6 says that Manasseh are sealed 12,000. Who, then, are the tribe of Joseph in Revelation 7:8? Please provide documentation on who are the the tribe of Joseph... because Joseph himself can't be sealed 12,000 all by himself.
 

Vickie

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Hi there Vickie.Where did I say in my post that Ephraim was part of Manasseh? I said Ephraim and Manasseh are part of Joseph. Why? Because Ephraim and Manasseh are both sons of Joseph. Manasseh being the firstborn. So I'll ask you again, since scripture of Revelation 7:6 says that Manasseh are sealed 12,000. Who, then, are the tribe of Joseph in Revelation 7:8? Please provide documentation on who are the the tribe of Joseph... because Joseph himself can't be sealed 12,000 all by himself.
Good morning Jordan. I did some research on verse 8 of Revelation. Strange but not unusual, to find another passage in the bible that no commentary is written on nor is the original translation of the name Joseph traceable at this point of my search. Not one translation has anything on the original word Joseph written for that verse. Something that has been either, removed by translators, or added, not wanting us to have the access to what and who is being spoken of. Interestingly as Manasseh is of the tribe of Joseph, there should be no need to mention Manasseh for he too comes from Joseph. Something is a miss here in this which has been done by man. Though this is an area still, that to assume where a verse or a thought is not accurate, or complete, proof must be sought and not just assumed.
 

Christina

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EZe 37:15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. 18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? 19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. This verse 23 places this event in the future at Christs Return.Ephraim carries the stick of Joshephwhen Christ returns and he always has as Jordan said son of my right hand he was given the inheratance .....