God's Desire is that All Men be Saved!

Nah!! the contradiction is telling someone their born a sinner but sending them 2 prison if they do something wrong!! if u were 2 be consistent with ur position u wouldn't send them 2 prison in the 1st place!!

justbyfaith said:

So, in order to receive Christ, a person must make a choice?

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Your point?
My point was even that choice took a convicting and enlightening work of God apart from which we would never have made that 'choice'.

prism said:

Your point?
My point was even that choice took a convicting and enlightening work of God apart from which we would never have made that 'choice'.

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But it is indeed a choice. Which means that to a certain extent it is of the will of man.

justbyfaith said:

But it is indeed a choice. Which means that to a certain extent it is of the will of man.

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So what you are saying is that Christians have room for boasting by claiming "I exercised my will to choose Jesus, why don't you also?"
Even faith comes by hearing and hearing by God's Word (not our own will). Rom 10:17

prism said:

So what you are saying is that Christians have room for boasting by claiming "I exercised my will to choose Jesus, why don't you also?"
Even faith comes by hearing and hearing by God's Word (not our own will). Rom 10:17

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You yourself have admitted that receiving Jesus is an act of the will.

Case closed.

prism said:

I believe that God will convict a person of their sin especially in light of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Those that are obedient to that conviction of sin and seek relief, God will further reveal His rescue (for them) in His Son for their sin...that would be where they exercise their will in embracing God's Son and Him crucified for their sin. But as you can see, even that exercise of the will was made possible by the previous convicting and illuminating work of His Spirit. (see Jn 16:9-11 and MT 16:17)

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justbyfaith said:

You yourself have admitted that receiving Jesus is an act of the will.

Case closed.

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Yes, a will that has been convicted of it's sinfulness and has been revealed it's Savior.
Case dismissed.

prism said:

Yes, a will that has been convicted of it's sinfulness and has been revealed it's Savior.
Case dismissed.

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A choice is still made by the person who receives Christ.

Case reopened.

justbyfaith said:

A choice is still made by the person who receives Christ.

Case reopened.

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no need 2 respond again, he got debunked the 1st time!! and then wat happens is wen they get refuted they just twist their paradigm 2 suit themselves!!

prism said:

I hope you see the contradiction of your own words.

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There is no contradiction.

1) man of his own will cannot save himself apart from God.

2) God saves man but God saves those men who will to be saved John 7:17; Revelation 22:17.

There is a difference between 1 and 2.


John 1:13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."


John 1:13 is a not-but elliptical statement where more emphasis is put on one thing (God) over another (man's will) but not to the total exclusion of man's will.

John 1:13 puts more emphasis on God in being born again but does not totally eliminate the physical birth (born of blood).

Just the physical birth (born of blood) alone does not make one born again but one must be physically born in order to be born again. So physical birth is necessary to being born again.
Likewise, just man's will alone cannot make him born again but he must use his will to be born again. So the will is necessary to being born again.

Ernest T. Bass said:

There is no contradiction.

1) man of his own will cannot save himself apart from God.

2) God saves man but God saves those men who will to be saved John 7:17; Revelation 22:17.

There is a difference between 1 and 2.


John 1:13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."


John 1:13 is a not-but elliptical statement where more emphasis is put on one thing (God) over another (man's will) but not to the total exclusion of man's will.

John 1:13 puts more emphasis on God in being born again but does not totally eliminate the physical birth (born of blood).

Just the physical birth (born of blood) alone does not make one born again but one must be physically born in order to be born again. So physical birth is necessary to being born again.
Likewise, just man's will alone cannot make him born again but he must use his will to be born again. So the will is necessary to being born again.

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But only after his natural sinful will has been changed to be able to choose God.

Ernest T. Bass said:

So the will is necessary to being born again.

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Yes, He brings us to the point of being willing through convicting us of sin and revealing His Son as Savior...

John 16:8 KJVS
[8] And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Matthew 16:17 KJVS
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

DoveSpirit05 said:

no need 2 respond again, he got debunked the 1st time!! and then wat happens is wen they get refuted they just twist their paradigm 2 suit themselves!!

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You're right, I won't respond again

David Taylor said:

But only after his natural sinful will has been changed to be able to choose God.

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Man is not born with a sin nature but is born with free will and the ability to choose to do well or do not well, Genesis 4:7.

If man were born with a sinful nature and has to be "changed" in order to be able to choose God, who does the changing? How is it determined which individuals will or will not be changed? What about showing respect of persons for those individuals that are "changed" and those left unhanged? How can one be rightly justly condemned for being unable to choose God because of how he was passively born against his will?

prism said:

Yes, He brings us to the point of being willing through convicting us of sin and revealing His Son as Savior...

John 16:8 KJVS
[8] And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Matthew 16:17 KJVS
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

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Men choose of their own free will to be born again. Therefore those not born again will be their own culpability in judgement and not God's culpability for not 'changing' them so they would want to be born again.

1 Peter 1:22-23 "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."


You purified your souls in obeying the truth is how they became born again.

Can man purify his own soul? Yes, in the sense of choosing to obey God's will. Those that do not choose to obey God's will cannot purify their own souls. The fact Peter said "you purified your souls" shows that man has a role in his own salvation (choosing to obey the truth) and salvation is not 100% God randomly, unconditionally choosing certain individuals over other individuals thereby making God a respecter of persons.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Man is not born with a sin nature but is born with free will and the ability to choose to do well or do not well, Genesis 4:7.

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That is not what Gen 4:7 says.

Ernest T. Bass said:

If man were born with a sinful nature and has to be "changed" in order to be able to choose God, who does the changing?

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God does.

Ernest T. Bass said:

How is it determined which individuals will or will not be changed?

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God does.

Ernest T. Bass said:

What about showing respect of persons for those individuals that are "changed" and those left unhanged?

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What about it?

Ernest T. Bass said:

How can one be rightly justly condemned for being unable to choose God because of how he was passively born against his will?

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Because we are responsible for our sin. This is God's world, not yours. Who are you to talk back to the potter?

David Taylor said:

But only after his natural sinful will has been changed to be able to choose God.

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Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

This would indicate that the grace that we receive to have our natural sinful will changed does not come about until after a man has faith, i.e. has made a decision to believe in and receive Jesus Christ.

David Taylor said:

That is not what Gen 4:7 says.


God does.


God does.


What about it?


Because we are responsible for our sin. This is God's world, not yours. Who are you to talk back to the potter?

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Genesis 4:7 "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." Cain had the ability to well or not do well, God says as much Himself. Cain was not 'locked' into only being able to not do well due to a sinful nature he was born with. God tells Cain to rule over sin showing Cain did have the ability to do well but he chose not to. No point, no sense in God telling Cain to rule over sin if God knew he did not have the ability to do such. Abel choose to do well Hebrews 11:4 where Cain chose to innovate and offer something different that what God said.

God has not created a world where He "formed" men to be sinners against their will then punish those men for the wicked men God 'made' them to be. Clay comes from the same lump but can be used for different purposes. But nowhere does the Bible say God alone randomly determines how the clay will be formed.

Jeremiah 18
"At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

It depends on what men do, obey God and repent or disobey God and not repent as to how they are formed.

God told Jeremiah to tell Israel "Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good." And Israel said "And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart." Jeremiah 18:11-12

Due to Israel's rebellion they were fashioned into vessels of dishonor. In the NT we are told "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work." 2 Timothy 2:20-21.

"IF" a man obeys God and "purge himself" he will be fashioned into a vessel of honor.

It was God's desire that He could fashion Israel into a vessel of honor but Israel disobeyed God "How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert! Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Their rebellion kept God from making them the vessels of honor He desired them to be therefore God instead put a mark, stigma upon their forehead...vessels of dishonor. They determined for themselves how they would be formed.

Can man limit God? Yes.
"1. But this may be questioned. It should seem impossible when we think of the greatness and power of God, of his universal sway, of his infinite wisdom, of the hurt and harm that must come of such conduct. All such considerations seem to render impossible the limiting of God.

2. But undoubtedly man can do this. For else he would be a mere machine, not a man; he would have no more volition than a tree or a bird. If he is to be able to say "Yes" to God, he must be able also to say "No." And he can and does. Scripture asserts it—see this whole psalm. God stood ready to bless, but Israel would have none of his counsel, and set at nought all his reproof. Reason asserts it, for it steadily affirms that we are free, and can will and choose as we please. Experience asserts it. Concerning nations, Churches, individuals, has not God again and again said, as Jesus did when he wept over Jerusalem, "How often would I have gathered thee … but ye would not!"? We read how in some places Christ could do no mighty works there because of their unbelief." The Pulpit Commentaries


Israel thought they controlled themselves "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?" isaiah 29:16.

God has sovereign power over the clay for the clay by itself has no power to make anything of itself by itself. Yet again, God does not randomly fashion clay. It is God's desire to fashion all clay as honorable vessels but if the clay mar in the Potter's hand the clay will be fashioned into a vessel of dishonor.

Romans 9:20 why did God make Israel thus? For their own choice in rebelling against Christ and not due to some unknown, capricious reasons. Hence God was fair in His treatment of Israel and not unfair as they wrongly accused God. It was THEIR CHOICE to reject God therefore they could not rightly, justly blame God for their unbelief, rebellion. On the other hand, how could God unconditionally fashion Israel to reject Christ then punish them for the way He fashioned them? THis makes God responsible for their rebellion and the Jews could then rightly, justly accuse God for their unbelief.

Again, Isaiah 29:13-16 "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"

They removed their heart from God. No randomly fashioning vessels apart from how the vessels act towards God, no perseverance of the Saints, Israel had gotten things backwards, the clay marred itself. Israel did not meet the demands God made of them (Jeremiah 18:8) and God fashions clay depending on man's repentance or lack thereof. By Israel's unbelief, they fitted themselves to be vessels of destruction Romans 9:22.

justbyfaith said:

Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

This would indicate that the grace that we receive to have our natural sinful will changed does not come about until after a man has faith, i.e. has made a decision to believe in and receive Jesus Christ.

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And where does that faith come from?

David Taylor said:

And where does that faith come from?

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It comes by hearing and hearing by the word of the Lord (Romans 10:17).

But consider the following:

Heb 4:2, For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

This would indicate that faith is a choice that people make upon hearing the word of the Lord.

justbyfaith said:

It comes by hearing and hearing by the word of the Lord (Romans 10:17).

But consider the following:

Heb 4:2, For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

This would indicate that faith is a choice that people make upon hearing the word of the Lord.

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And where do the ears to hear come from?