The New Covenant

charity said:

Hello @Harvest 1874,

I would dispute that claim, but am not currently in a position to argue the point. However I believe that the times of the Gentiles are still in place, surely present day happenings in themselves are a proof of that.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

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It is apparent my dear sister that you have yet to have taken adequate time to thoroughly study the subject as it appears you are making the common mistake of assuming that this prophecy is about the gentiles when in fact it is about Israel. Many erroneously assume that the “times” of the gentiles refers to the time allotted for their rule, that when these times are up they are to be removed from power. They assume since the gentile nations are still with us, still ruling, that this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, but as stated this prophecy was never specifically about the gentiles.

The times of the gentiles refers to the time in which the dominion of earth was to be exercised by the various gentile governments. During this time both natural and spiritual Israel were to be subject to these powers. Since natural Israel had proven themselves unfit for exaltation to universal dominion, this dominion was given “temporarily” to the gentiles until the appointed times were fulfilled. Nor is anything said about the gentiles having reached that time that they would be “immediately” removed from power.

This gentile dominion was to continue until Christ, the rightful heir to the throne of Israel and all the earth, who purchased it with his own precious blood, would come and take control…But unlike the preceding four dominions which were permitted for an appointed time, and therefore recognized, though not approvingly, this one will be approved and established by God, as his representative in the earth. It will be God's Kingdom, the Kingdom of Jehovah's Anointed. It will be established gradually, during a great time of trouble with which the Gospel age will close, and in the midst of which present (gentile) dominions shall be utterly consumed, passing away amid great confusion.”

The Scriptural evidence is clear and strong that the "Times of the Gentiles" is a period of 2520 years, from the year B.C. 606 to and including A.D. 1914.

"Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles (subject to gentile rule) until the Times of the Gentiles be fulfilled”

The times of the gentiles is likewise confirmed by another prophetic statement made by our Lord found in Lev. 26:17, 18, 24, 28 in regards to the “seven times” of punishment upon the nation of Israel for their continued disobedience.

Once again we refer you to our blog post “The Times of the Gentiles” for a more thorough examination of this subject including the “seven times” mention above.

charity said:

I do not believe that the church which is the Body of Christ, being called out during this dispensation, is in a covenant relationship with God.

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The New Testament (the New Covenant, since diatheke can be translated either way) by itself refutes your contention. But Paul takes it a step further and clearly shows that the Church (the Body of Christ) is now under the New Covenant.

2 CORINTHIANS 3

THE NEW COVENANT: NOT IN TABLETS OF STONE
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

UNDER THE NEW COVENANT OUR SUFFICIENCY IS OF GOD
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

APOSTLES ARE MINISTERS OF THE NEW COVENANT
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament [Covenant]; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

THE OLD COVENANT: WAS ENGRAVED IN STONES
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

THE NEW COVENANT: A MINISTRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
8 How shall not the ministration of the [Holy] Spirit be rather [more] glorious?

THE NEW COVENANT: A MINISTRATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

THE NEW COVENANT: FAR MORE GLORIOUS THAN THE OLD
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

THE NEW COVENANT: WILL REMAIN, THE OLD COVENANT WILL BE DONE AWAY WITH
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

THE NEW COVENANT: GIVES GREAT HOPE TO THE BELIEVER
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

THE OLD COVENANT: HAS BEEN ABOLISHED
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

THE OLD COVENANT: NOW PRODUCES SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament [Covenant]; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

THE VEIL OF THE OLD COVENANT IS TAKEN AWAY THROUGH CHRIST
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

THE NEW COVENANT: ESTABLISHED BY THE INDWELLING SPIRIT TRANSFORMS THE BELIEVER
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

charity said:

Hello @Harvest 1874,

I would dispute that claim, but am not currently in a position to argue the point. However I believe that the times of the Gentiles are still in place, surely present day happenings in themselves are a proof of that.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

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@Harvest 1874

Luke 21:24 "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

It's a lot in how you interpret this, but I ask you, If the gentiles were not trodding down Jerusalem, would there still be a dome of the rock mosque? No temple? The old city offered to the Arabs?

Daniel 2:44 "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

Much love!

Harvest 1874 said:

It is apparent my dear sister that you have yet to have taken adequate time to thoroughly study the subject as it appears you are making the common mistake of assuming that this prophecy is about the gentiles when in fact it is about Israel. Many erroneously assume that the “times” of the gentiles refers to the time allotted for their rule, that when these times are up they are to be removed from power. They assume since the gentile nations are still with us, still ruling, that this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, but as stated this prophecy was never specifically about the gentiles.

The times of the gentiles refers to the time in which the dominion of earth was to be exercised by the various gentile governments. During this time both natural and spiritual Israel were to be subject to these powers. Since natural Israel had proven themselves unfit for exaltation to universal dominion, this dominion was given “temporarily” to the gentiles until the appointed times were fulfilled. Nor is anything said about the gentiles having reached that time that they would be “immediately” removed from power.

This gentile dominion was to continue until Christ, the rightful heir to the throne of Israel and all the earth, who purchased it with his own precious blood, would come and take control…But unlike the preceding four dominions which were permitted for an appointed time, and therefore recognized, though not approvingly, this one will be approved and established by God, as his representative in the earth. It will be God's Kingdom, the Kingdom of Jehovah's Anointed. It will be established gradually, during a great time of trouble with which the Gospel age will close, and in the midst of which present (gentile) dominions shall be utterly consumed, passing away amid great confusion.”

The Scriptural evidence is clear and strong that the "Times of the Gentiles" is a period of 2520 years, from the year B.C. 606 to and including A.D. 1914.

"Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles (subject to gentile rule) until the Times of the Gentiles be fulfilled”

The times of the gentiles is likewise confirmed by another prophetic statement made by our Lord found in Lev. 26:17, 18, 24, 28 in regards to the “seven times” of punishment upon the nation of Israel for their continued disobedience.

Once again we refer you to our blog post “The Times of the Gentiles” for a more thorough examination of this subject including the “seven times” mention above.

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Gentile rule over Jerusalem is not finished.

"In the days of those kings . . ." is a key phrase.

David Taylor said:

Curious, if we are not in covenant relationship, what type of relationship are we in?

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Been trying to gel on Chris' post, but yours brought more clarity to me.

I would answer, Familial. We are born God's children.

marks said:

Gentile rule over Jerusalem is not finished.

"In the days of those kings . . ." is a key phrase.

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It is evident you need to read the blog post.

charity said:

Hello there,

I have been reading through several threads, catching up on the weeks entries I have missed while my computer was under repair. The last one I read through, started by @marks:- Faithful and Just to Forgive . . . - brought to mind the subject of the New Covenant, which was brought into the discussion between @marks and @CharismaticLady.

I do not believe that the church which is the Body of Christ, being called out during this dispensation, is in a covenant relationship with God. For the new covenant, as with the old covenant will be made with Israel.

What are your thoughts concerning this?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

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Hi charity. One thought that comes to mind concerns the need in both Old and New Covenants for blood to be shed. You can stick to your premise that Gentiles in the Body of Christ are not included in the New Covenant if you want, but sadly you will have to remove Ephesians 2:11-22 from your Bible... (see below)

Lev 17:11
(11) For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.'

Mat 26:27-28
(27) Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
(28) For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Col 1:20-23
(20) and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
(21) And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
(22) in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—
(23) if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Eph 2:11-22
(11) Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
(12) that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
(13) But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
(14) For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
(15) having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
(16) and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
(17) And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
(18) For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
(19) Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
(20) having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,
(21) in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
(22) in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Harvest 1874 said:

You are correct in your assertion that the New Covenant is to be (future tense) made with Israel and not with the Church, however where you err is in assuming that the Church (those fully consecrated) is not in covenant relationship with God.

All who have fully consecrated themselves to the LORD are in covenant relationship with the Father, NOT in the New Covenant but rather in a covenant of sacrifice, following in the Master's footsteps. Even now such are being gathered together in mutual appreciation of that covenant with God.

"Gather My servants together to Me, those who have made a covenant to Me by sacrifice" (Psa 50:5), those who have taken the Apostle admonition and who have presented their bodies to Me a living sacrifice (fully justified through Christ Jesus), and thus holy and acceptable. (Rom 12:1)

I would suggest the following blog post "The Mediator and the New Covenant" for a more through understanding on the matter of the New Covenant for all who are interested.

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No, the New Covenant was made with Israel on the Day of Pentecost, to all who accepted Jesus. The Gentiles were grafted into this present covenant with Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

THEN the partial blindness given to national Israel for rejecting Christ will be removed and all of Israel at that time will be brought into the Church. They will finally understand the gospel. This is the part you are seeing and why you seem to think it is only future tense.

charity said:

Hello there,

I have been reading through several threads, catching up on the weeks entries I have missed while my computer was under repair. The last one I read through, started by @marks:- Faithful and Just to Forgive . . . - brought to mind the subject of the New Covenant, which was brought into the discussion between @marks and @CharismaticLady.

I do not believe that the church which is the Body of Christ, being called out during this dispensation, is in a covenant relationship with God. For the new covenant, as with the old covenant will be made with Israel.

What are your thoughts concerning this?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

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You raise an interesting point, a covenant relationship.
Jesus said this

1 And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."
Mark 9:1

The mountain of transfiguration was the kingdom of God come with power.

Paul says this about the Holy Spirit

9 And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Rom 8:9

3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
2 Cor 3:3

13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
1 Cor 12:13

14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor 2:14

In all of history, the church is the first group other than John the Baptist, who are filled with the Holy Spirit, a communion with the Most High, were we are His temple.

There is no closer relationship than this, it is life, eternal life, a communion with the Most High.
This is the start of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.

But then if someones faith is not bounded by these realities, then clearly descriptions of covenants might get confusing.

CharismaticLady said:

It was. Gentiles are only grafted in. Romans 11

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We did a bible study the other day, and I realised Jesus said He was the vine.
Pauls illustration of Israel being part of Gods vine, the branches broken off, and we grafted in was one perspective.

Jesus being the vine, we are sealed in the Holy Spirit into the Kingdom, there is no other reality.
Jesus knew what He was saying calling Himself the vine. Praise the Lord.

CharismaticLady said:

No, the New Covenant was made with Israel on the Day of Pentecost, to all who accepted Jesus. The Gentiles were grafted into this present covenant with Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

THEN the partial blindness given to national Israel for rejecting Christ will be removed and all of Israel at that time will be brought into the Church. They will finally understand the gospel. This is the part you are seeing and why you seem to think it is only future tense.

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Sorry but you are mistaken you need to read, "The Mediator and the New Covenant" if you wish to correctly understand the issue.

I believe we have already addressed some of these statements before as posed by another forum member, it can be found under, Questions on “The Mediator and the New Covenant”

charity said:

Hello there,

I have been reading through several threads, catching up on the weeks entries I have missed while my computer was under repair. The last one I read through, started by @marks:- Faithful and Just to Forgive . . . - brought to mind the subject of the New Covenant, which was brought into the discussion between @marks and @CharismaticLady.

I do not believe that the church which is the Body of Christ, being called out during this dispensation, is in a covenant relationship with God. For the new covenant, as with the old covenant will be made with Israel.

What are your thoughts concerning this?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

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sorry that would be incorrect, though yes the covenant of Jesus Christ is to the Jews first, its to the rest of the faithful Jew or Gentile.



Heb 12:24　 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.　


therefore the covenant is to all the faithful. there is also statements from Paul to the effect of grafting in of the gentile to the Promise of Abraham via the same faith.

simply that God the Father sees all His Children through His beloved Son our Lord Jesus Christ and not through Adam as was before the faithful were born again.

Harvest 1874 said:

Sorry but you are mistaken you need to read, "The Mediator and the New Covenant" if you wish to correctly understand the issue.

I believe we have already addressed some of these statements before as posed by another forum member, it can be found under, Questions on “The Mediator and the New Covenant”

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If the New Covenant was not in effect, then the promises of the New Covenant would be future also. You may think you are right, but you have a lot more to learn. What you've done is like a plane that starts out flying a little off course, and winds up in a completely different country than his destination.

Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. (has been done-past tense)

2 Peter 1:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (again, past tense)

2 Corinthians 3:
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones (Old Covenant), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

Romans 8:1-9
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Hebrews 13:
20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

charity said:

Hello there,

I have been reading through several threads, catching up on the weeks entries I have missed while my computer was under repair. The last one I read through, started by @marks:- Faithful and Just to Forgive . . . - brought to mind the subject of the New Covenant, which was brought into the discussion between @marks and @CharismaticLady.

I do not believe that the church which is the Body of Christ, being called out during this dispensation, is in a covenant relationship with God. For the new covenant, as with the old covenant will be made with Israel.

What are your thoughts concerning this?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

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Hi Chris,

Been mulling this over. The New Covenant was promised to Israel, and includes all the provisions and blessings of the Old Covenant.

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Ezekiel 11
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

My understanding of the Old and New Covenants is that the Old was given to Israel alone, and that the New was likewise promised to Israel alone, and that the bringing of the New would acheive all the blessings offered in the Old, again, for Israel.

When the New Covenant was announced on Pentecost, it was the offer to fulfill all things, including Jesus' return.

Acts 2
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The Kingdom would have been established in Jerusalem, from which Jesus would rule the earth. The Israelites would be reborn, to keep all aspects of the Law, receiving all blessings, the head of nations, through which the gentiles would come to know God.

When the Isrealites as a nation continued in rejection, the offer was put in abeyance, and the Gospel was sent directly to the gentiles.

Now I understand that we being gentiles can approach God through the provision made in the New Covenant.

But I don't think that the gentiles are brought near for the purpose of entering into the Old Covenant, and the Law keeping of the New Covenant as it will be fulfilled in the Israelites under their New Covenant with God.

Ezekiel 36
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

I look at the Gentile's original standing with God, we are in sin, so we are dead.
If we confess our sin, He forgives and cleanses.
In Him we come alive through faith, so in Him by faith we live.

Is there more to it?

Much love!