Why Doubt Osas?

QUOTE (tomwebster @ Mar 27 2009, 09:41 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71359
So Copper, what is apostasy?
2 Timothy 4:3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;2 Timothy 4:4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.My friend, do you even bother to consider or to even think about how much in today’s fast moving society, just how much people press against the truth, and I mean the pure truth of God and not some patronizing version that diminishes truth? Do you even know why many who are calling themselves Christians today are lost? It is not because they are Christians, no but rather because they NEVER were Christians in the first place, Why, QUOTE
Frankly, ether one is in the flock and in the sheep fold of Christ, or they were not in it at all, why?John 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:John 10:28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.Not let me state this, NO TRUE BELEIVER is going to be part of those people in Matthew 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Why because Christ said "I never knew you" to all them and that means that NONE of them can or ever were His sheep. Why, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them" Christ said. All those claiming Christian, but WHO ARE NOT REALLY Christians, they will be the ones in that crowd, those that said "Lord, Lord", claiming to know him and have fellowship with Him but were not in fellowship with him.
As I have said before, you can confess "Lord, Lord" your whole life and still go to hell. The apostasy is the mass who claim to be Christian but in reality never were. Why?John 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow meThese people in the apostasy, which are many, are those that failed to follow Christ, those that would rather seek the world, those who press against the truth, and even substitute what they conjur up in their own mind for the truth2 Peter 3:16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.People who can't handle the truth will try to ruin it, by patronizing their own selves.Matthew 25:32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:Matthew25:33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Matthew 25:41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angelsWho are those in the apostasy, none other than all those goats that claim Christ but don't know, don't seek, nor care to know the purity of his word and its truth. They would rather follow their lust, their pride, their own mind!Proverbs 12:14) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.All these in the apostasy, never entered into the full truth but rather were content living a lie, happier in the world, they reject the truth, they reject God, by substituing the world for God, having the world in someway dominating their heart,Matthew 5:8) Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.These people are subjecting themselves to idols created by their wants and desires of self. They have become dictator over their own life and are hard pressed against the truth. Why?1 Corinthians 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.Do you see, these people were never , ever, ever converted, but rather just lived in carnality, in the flesh, and never in the Spirit!Romans 8:14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.These people are follow lifestyles living in the flesh, living unconverted lives, having not TRULY come to repentance, and their life is hypocrisy. Why?Titus 1:16) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.Am I saying that by works we are saved, no because (Ephesians 2:8) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves", but I will say this, (Ephesians 2:10) "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.". There WILL be evidence in someone’s actions, in someone’s live, their WILL be fruit, and that fruit should remain, as stated in John 15:16, "I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain"Now follow me for a momentMatthew 7:16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Matthew 7:17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. Matthew 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Now, I truely tell you that all those that fall away from the faith and reject the truth, who line up for destruction, are those that bear bad fruit: They are the evil or bad trees that even try to change their stripes, or claim different fruit, but in reality they were and are bad fruit bearing trees and have always been.I TELL YOU TRULY, THAT UNLESS ONE IS CONVERTED, THAT THEY WILL BE A BAD TREE! ONE THAT BEARS CORRUPT OR BAD FRUIT, AND WILL GET HEWN DOWN AND CAST INTO THE FIRE! you say?Well, look at Matthew 7:19 and John 15:6 and tell me what you thinkJohn 15:6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Matthew 7:19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Now combine those to verses with John 3:7, "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.", and as Christians, what does it mean to be born again?Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.This can only happen by God and can certainly not be performed or faked by humans, you can't fool God. Ether one is converted, bearing the fruitfulness of the Holy Spirit, and is being regenerated by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5) "by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost", or they are on their way to hell, because (John 3:6) "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

I will ask you this, if someone confesses Christ, even though their fruit, there life style is bad and wicked, drenched in evil, fornication, ways of the flesh, and things of the such, is that person BIBLICALLY SPEAKING, a Christian? No, simply no. Why?Galatians 519) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. John 3:36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.BIBLICALLY SPEAKING, thes people committing actions that are listed in Galatians 5:19-21, do NOT have eternal life, so therefore, how can they ever believe on the Son of God, Christ Jesus? Now these fake phonies people calling themselves Christian are falling away from Him, Why?Think about it, if one is not progressing toward Christ, then in what direction are they going? THEY ARE FALLING AWAY FROM HIM. EVERY carnally minded person, who lives in constant carnality IS falling away from the one who they confess as Lord, Christ Jesus. I don't think that you understand what I say so let me say it plainly.We have over a billion confessing Christians. Now, BIBLICALLY SPEAKING, over half of them are not even Christians, but are falling away, due to half-truths, or false teachings, or just plain ignorance. They are they that are falling away!!

As I have said before, any real TRUE Christian can never be pulled out of Christ hand. Why?john 10:28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.Second, may the term Once saved, always saved is confusing you, so let me put it bluntly. THERE IS NOT ONE TRUE SHEEP THAT CAN BE PLUCKED FROM THE LORD JESUS' HAND. Why?john 10:29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.It is the Father that gave them to Jesus. Remember,john 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.I tell you truly, that if a REAL sheep were to fall out of the Lord's hand, then that would mean that God is not greater then all.Now, Let me ask you this, who, and I mean who was this severe warning, that Christ gave apply to, and what does it mean?Matthew 7:13) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Matthew 7:14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. I tell you truly, that unless you can comprehend this set of verses, IN THEIR CONTEXT, you WILL keep missing the point that I make. Now Look at verses 13 and 14 in Matthew seven and look at the context, and answer my quesstion.Matthew 713) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24) Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25) And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26) And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27) And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.Again, I tell you truly, that unless you can comprehend this set of verses, IN THEIR CONTEXT, you WILL keep missing the point that I make. Now Look at verses 13 and 14 in Matthew seven and look at the context, and answer my question.I tell you truly, that if a REAL sheep were to fall out of the Lord's hand, then that would mean that God is not greater then all.Now, Let me ask you this, who, and I mean who was this severe warning, that Christ gave apply to, and what does it mean? Please answer my question before we continue on any further

You can call me a false prophet all you want but i never claimed myself to be a prophet, you know that right?Just because you don't like what I say, does that make me false? Second, you don't even use any scripture proof to state your case of your recent statements. Try my words, and prove them by scripture for yourself.I give myself no title of Shepherd, I think you created this in your own mind!first off, how can a TRUE Christian depart from God, when the fear of God is put in them?Jeremiah 32:39) And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:Second of all, God will break his children and humble them all, and will tear down every idol in their life before he let's them walk awayLook at Jonah, who tried to walk away from God, ye err if you think that a true child of God can just say, God I quite, I walk away from you now and that will actually happen.In order to believe what you believeQUOTE
I am talking about a real Christian choosing to leave God's hand of his own free-will.
You would have to completely ignore the doctrine of Hebrews 12 statingHebrews 12 5) And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? And if you think that Matthew 7:13-14 was only referring to false prophets, then you are mistaken and have not looked at the context surrounding it.you are ether in one of two categoriesEther you are bearing good fruit because you are a good tree, living a life that exhibits and displays that the working of God's influencing, doing the Father's will, and are known by Christ, and heeding His word, and you will have eternal lifeoryou are a bad tree bearing bad fruit, living a life that does not exhibit or display the working of God's influencing, not doing the Father's will, and are not known by Christ, and are not heeding His word are will be cut down, thrown in the fire, hear "depart from me, ye that work iniquity.", who is going to get swept away by the judgment of God, and WILL NOT have eternal life In Matthew 7:13-14, Christ was not merely talking about false prophets, but rather all those that confess his name, claiming to be his disciples.In order for a person to ever walk away from the faith, that would have to mean that that person was not a Christian in the first place. Why?Hebrews 12: 8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. They are not God's children. I have made this point many times in this thread, you just can't seem to grasp thatPhilippians 1:6) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus ChristIn order for a TRUE Christian to walk away from and reject the faith, that would have to mean that God willingly would have to forsake themDeuteronomy 31:6) Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.This promise that God would not forsake us is found in multiple places in the bible and He that won't forsake us is certainly going to correct us, unless you are saying that God is a neglectful father like some human parents. Thus concluding that a True Christian can't walk away from the faith.On the side, Look at the sower parable. Three seed types are not fruitful, but the one is, the one in good soil, now tell me were in the entire bible, that Christ said that those that start bearing good fruit, being fruitful by the working of God in them, (for it is only by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit that one can be fruitful, see Titus 3), that they will stop being fruitful or for that matter, that God will forsake them and let them run wild and free to do what ever they want to do in this world. Remember(NKJV) John 15:1-2) “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.and John 15:16) You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. I have laid the proof before your eyes, take it or leave it, you believe what you want to believe.

How do I disregard freewill? I say in a sense that God will make sure His true children never leave him, because they are his workmanship, it is for his own glory.second Christina, how many today are called to be Christian, meaning that they accept the faith or the Christian calling, but fall away to worldly lust, corruption, and seduction of false prophets. I tell you truly, that these failed to live up to the calling, but does that mean that they were ever in Christ' fold, his sheep fold, No, simply no. WhyJohn 10:27-28) My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.This is the concept of the Christian call that I think you miss. Just because someone recognizes the calling to become Christian and declares themself a Christian, does that make them a Christian, Nay. The fact of the matter is that a person's will is governed or is a slave to their nature in a sense. If one who has accepted the calling to be Christian, but is not born again, can they live a life pleasing to God? I think notIf one who has accepted the calling to be Christian loves the world, the lust and the pleasures of the world, but does not live at all like God exist, does that make them a Christian? I think not. The truth is that they are in apostasy, even though they accept the Christian call, they are not corrected by God, nor are they are disciplined by God, these are they that are falling away from Christ.Did I explain it for you better? They that acknowledge Christ, but are not in His fold, no matter how much they praise him, because of their lifestyle they choose to live, they are falling away from Christ. But have I not explained in the other sense that by nature man Hates God( not necessarily by saying it, but rather though action), that he presses against God's truth and does not want it.Jonah 2:9) "Salvation is of the LORD"A human in the carnal, not born again state of mind, though they accept the calling to Christianity, are falling away. Remember, one can only be converted if God moves on their behalf!The thing is, I guess you doubt God's character to keep his TRUE sheep from falling away.QUOTE
Many are called few are chosen
John 1:12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his nameA billion people believe that Jesus is, now how many are actually, BIBLICALLY SPEAKING, are Christians, and are not falling away from the one on the throne, who they call Lord?QUOTE
Many are called few are chosen

Christina, I will say this and I believe that on this we can have one accord, yes we will have trials, yes we will have to endure, but on the toughest most darkest days, can we depend on our own strength. Nay, Philippians 4:13) I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.When we get to heaven, and we ask to the man next to us, "Sir why are you here, Is he going to say, because I endured unto the end" or is he Going to boast in the Lord, saying that when the floods came, and the flood gates opened, it was GOD that upheld me, it was GOD that strengthened me. I am going to say this frankly, and I think you will agree with me on this one. If we had to depend on our feeble human strength, we would die and perish. I say, that us as Christians, make our boast in the strength and the provision of the Lord.Isaiah 43:2) When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.Do you think that (Isaiah 25:4) "when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall" that we live and conquer because of our strength, our because of the Lord's______________________________________And by the way, I don't care what anyone says, not all people are God's elect. (Matthew 7:14) "few there be that find it"Am I saying that as Christians, we should exalt ourselves above the warnings of God, NO, NO, NO! But can we have assurance in our salvation, Yes1 John 5:13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.Not everyone claiming to be Christian is a Christian. WhyGalatians 519) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. And unfortunately, many people in these current doings, are claiming to be Christian, but are not because biblical belief is more then saying "Lord, Lord"QUOTE
God never gave a single one of us the ability to be able to judge others hearts and know if they were/are saved not even you
Uh, when someone is committing fornication, how are they not lost, regardless of whether they profess Christian or not, look at Galatians 5:19And by the way, judging someone's actions and calling it wrong, is not judging their hearts, you have that confused. If I were to judge your motives, or the reason why someone did something, that is judging their hearts.The bible says for example that anyone in the current action of fornication SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God, so is it wrong to call that person Lost who is committing it, No, simply no. You must learn to distinguish the two and then you can see with clearly.QUOTE
only differeance between you and one who struggles is you think you are better because you have declared it
That is just pride and I think think not that, you have become the judge of hearts, the judge of thoughts, you are running off an assumption that is in your own mind, trying to judge my motives or my heart.As far as the OSAS thing, what does this meanJohn 10:28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.I don't go by what man says, because he can be lying, but when I see the word of God speak for itself, that is when I see it as truth written in the word, then is it truth. Some can for example say that faith is by works, now we know that that is a lie because of Ephesians 2:8-9Am I saying that Christians have not responsibility, no that is blasphemy against the truth of God. I just say that God will for example break down and correct his children before he ever let's one slip. Why? Because God Loves us with a jealous love where he will keep us on the straight path.

Christina QUOTE
You want to pretend you are above falling away
I just have such a great confidence in God to see me through, I have experience divine chastening, myself, God litterally is strict with me. The moment I sin, I get convicted in my heart by the Holy Spirit. When you take God at His word, saying something likeJeremiah 10:24) Correct me, O LORD, but in just measure; not in thy anger, lest thou bring me to nothingand mean it with your whole heart pettitioning it to God. God does not slack on his part. QUOTE
You claim God will keep you from sinning ...He will not
Christina, my sister in Christ, have you not heard of sanctification? Or the regeneration power of the Holy Spirit? Do you know that apart from the conviction power of the Holy Spirit, that the world would be in utter chaos. That if it were not for God's common grace that the manifestations of every wicked thought would probably engulf everyone!QUOTE
And you can not say if they sin they are or are not saved
I referenced to certain actions like fornication for example but when did I ever say that we do not sin? That is a complete and utter lie, if anyone says that we do not sin Now growth takes time when one comes to Christ. Its not like we become super holy the moment we come to Christ. QUOTE
Untill tried and tested
QUOTE
He will keep you if you keep yourself from sinning. God doesnt even keep the Elect from tribulation
Since when did I say that God keeps his elect from trials?We are going to have to stand and die for our faith when it comes down to it. 2 Timothy 3:12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.And honestly when I see OSAS, the only type of things I keep referencing to are verses in the bible.John 10:28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.it is just something that Christ said plainly, and I believe Him when He says that, not because of some random personPoint blank, ALL that are TRULY elected of God will be be victorious through Christ, though we are going to have to go through trails, God upholds us.QUOTE
if it doesnt measure up to your OSAS doctrine they are not saved
Do you want to know something that is real sad, I just simply kep using scripture and applying logic to them, but I am not the one that ever sets the standard, nor establish the law, nor determined the destination of souls, that is God's job. As for me, if I call a spade a spade, is that a bad thing? In this world, people are in a way afraid to call a spade a spade, and that is why Christianity got to be the way it is today, with preachers preaching everything but the true gospel in many cases. False concepts on who God is etc..Many people don't like to hear the truth of God's word because they can't handle it, or they don't want to ever submit to it. Like I said, forget the term OSAS, I just believe what my Lord Jesus said in John 10:28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

That post above is extremely funny. I am laughin hard at that one