The Two Witnesses....two Men Or Two Groups Of Men?

QUOTE (whirlwind @ Mar 21 2009, 08:47 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71133
Are these two literal entities or...two groups of witnesses? For some reason I always saw that verse as the olive trees and candlesticks being the same thing. They are not. He explains:Christ of course is that One golden candlestick and from Him the olive trees and candlesticks receive the Holy Oil which gives His Light to the world. But, what are those olive trees and candlesticks...for they together are the two witnesses.Christ, The Golden Candlestick was in the midst of seven candlesticks which He explains are "the seven churches." Notice that in the millennium He is with the seven churches but...not before the millennium. Then He is only among two churches.So, we see that candlesticks are churches and two of those seven are "standing before the God of the earth." [Revelation 11:4] Those two I believe would be Philadelphia and Smyrna because of what they teach. (another study for another time) There are many more folks than two that make up the congregation of those two churches/candlesticks. But, what of the two olive trees? What does that mean?We are told in [Zechariah 4:12-14] that the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth, are the two olive branches. Those branches have many twigs.Those two anointed ones are two of the seven churches and the two olive trees....both wild and natural. In conclusion, the two witnesses, the two prophets, the two anointed ones are made up of two of the seven churches and two olive trees which are Gentile and of Israel. Together they take His message, the oil from Him, to the world.
If I may quote you from another topic...QUOTE (whirlwind @ Mar 20 2009, 02:19 PM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=71107][/url]
...These are not the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel [Revelation 7:4-8] but another group of 144,000 written of in [Revelation 14:1-4]. These are they that were “redeemed by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”[Revelation 5:9] As Christ was "caught up to God and to His throne"...so shall the man child of end times. The man child is simply another name for His elect, His first fruits, His two witnesses.
How you explain this in this "Two Witness?" 288,000 people?

QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 21 2009, 09:15 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71135
If I may quote you from another topic...How you explain this in this "Two Witness?" 288,000 people?
You brought out a good point.

I believe Whilwind is on the right track ... Just think some important verse's are not addressed and we must make all the Word and pieces of puzzel about subject fit ... I think the branches she talks about are absoulty right but I dont see them as two churchs but as two men representing the two branches The Law(Judah,the Old testament) and Christians grace, (Israel ,the New testanent)

QUOTE (Christina @ Mar 21 2009, 12:29 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71141
scI believe Whilwind is on the right track ... Just think some important verse's are not addressed and we must make all the Word and pieces of puzzel about subject fit ... I think the branches she talks about are absoulty right but I dont see them as two churchs but as two men representing the two branches The Law(Judah,the Old testament) and Christians grace, (Israel ,the New testanent)
Also, I don't believe believe Satan will kill all of God's two churches that He is pleased with. Just the only two witnesses (people) that is being referred in scriptures.Zechariah 4:11 - Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?Zechariah 4:12 - And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?Zechariah 4:13 - And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.Zechariah 4:14 - Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth..........Revelation 11:3 - And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.Revelation 11:4 - These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.Revelation 11:5 - And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.Revelation 11:6 - These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.Revelation 11:7 - And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

God in his promise to tell us all things often gives us types of these things so that we can get a picture of what he is talking about (there is nothing new under the sun) he has given us a type of the two wittness's in the story of Elijah 1 Kings 17:1 - 2 Kings 1 compare what Elijah does with what is said of the two wittness, stoping the rain ect. Elijah is our type for the two wittness's And we have Gods promise in Mal. 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD

If Christ wasn't crucified in Jerusalem where was it? Maybe you could start another thread on this when your time permits so we do not get to far off topic as I would like to hear your thoughts on this ...

QUOTE (whirlwind @ Mar 21 2009, 03:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71150
QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 21 2009, 12:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71142
Also, I don't believe believe Satan will kill all of God's two churches that He is pleased with. Just the only two witnesses (people) that is being referred in scriptures. ...
That thought is what kept me arguing against this. More than two people will be killed but will it be all of the candlesticks (churches) and olive trees (Jew and Gentile believers)? No, I don't understand it that way.Consider this....

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the streeth of the great city, which spirtually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.​

At first glance we would believe that was Jerusalem. It isn't. That is another study but it means....the world. Christ died for all of our sins. We all crucified Him. The bodies of the witnesses will be lying in many locations.There are so many titles or names for the witnesses. The elect, the very elect, the Zadok, the man child, etc. My belief is that only a small number are chosen to give their lives for Him. Christ was the example. As He was killed...so will others.

Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."​

I used to understand that as He would call many but only a few would be worthy, only a few would answer. Now I understand it to be telling us that many are called and out of those only a few are chosen for the task of following in His footsteps.

Matthew 16:24-25 Then said Jesus unto His disciples, "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it.

That is speaking of spiritually following Him and giving up your old life, your old man but....I believe it also speaks of a literal event that some will be part of.​

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.​

I believe they/we will be among.....

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."​

Will we be among those asked to do this? We are His elect so....perhaps we will be of the chosen few.Satan is not coming here to kill men. He is coming here to get as many souls to worship him as "Lord Jesus Christ"Revelation 9:5 - And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.Revelation 9:6 - And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them....Revelation 9:10 - And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

QUOTE (whirlwind @ Mar 22 2009, 07:12 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71169
QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 21 2009, 07:03 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71158
Satan is not coming here to kill men. He is coming here to get as many souls to worship him as "Lord Jesus Christ"Revelation 9:5 - And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.Revelation 9:6 - And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them....Revelation 9:10 - And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
I agree Jordan. Satan wants souls...not bodies. But, he will kill the two witnesses. The question is, just who are the two witnesses or...how many are they? Scripture tells us the two are olive trees (Israel and Gentiles) and candlesticks (two churches), so we see that they aren't two literal entities but are two groups. I just don't know how many in those two groups will meet the fate spoken of. I do know, if we are among those chosen few that we will stand! Amen!We will have to agree to disagree on this subject. Satan and his angels is not allowed to touch any of those elects that has the seal of God. But he is allowed to touch those men that do not have the seal of God.Revelation 9:4 - And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.Satan, once again is only allow to kill two people.Revelation 11:3 - And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.Revelation 11:4 - These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.....Revelation 11:7 - And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

QUOTE (Christina @ Mar 21 2009, 10:29 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71141
I believe Whilwind is on the right track ... Just think some important verse's are not addressed and we must make all the Word and pieces of puzzle about subject fit ... I think the branches she talks about are absolutely right but I don't see them as two Church's but as two men representing the two branches The Law(Judah,the Old testament) and Christians grace, (Israel ,the New testament)
I agree pretty much with your take whirlwind but question the group concept... There are two branches (sticks ) (EZE.37) but I see no reason it has to be the whole group, for example God chose out a people he didn't send the whole group up the mountain to get the Law he sent there leader.We see this many times that a person is sent to represent the whole group... The two groups we are talking here is basically the true church body thats upon earth...the idea of killing the whole bride and leaving their dead bodies in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 days seems a little unlikely to me ... they would have to all be in Jerusalem, for one thing.(IMHO) as it isn't really a street but an type of arena or plazaAnd regardless of how we see Mal 4:5 its still leads you to Elijah as our type of the two witness, In Judaism this verse has always been taken literal and its one one of the reasons they didn't accept Christ they didn't understand who John was. Its a sign they watch for today. But again they will not recognize him till later in the week

The Two Witnesses two men or two groups?

Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
Zec 4:4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
Zec 4:5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

We are told in [Zechariah 4:12-14] that the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth, are the two olive branches. The two anointed ones - Christ and the Holy Spirit. The Son was to be sent by the Father, and so was the Holy Ghost. And they stand by him, ready to go.

Christ of course is that One golden candlestick and from Him the olive trees and candlesticks receive the Holy Oil which gives His Light to the world. But, what are those olive trees and candlesticks...for they together are the two witnesses.

QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 21 2009, 09:15 AM)
If I may quote you from another topic...How you explain this in this "Two Witness?" 288,000 people?

The two groups of 144,000 (first fruit groups) are the two witnesses that make up the 288,000 remnant army anointed in the Holy Spirit and commissioned by Christ. God getting the Glory because the work is done by Christ and the Holy Spirit through his remnant end time army. Two types of anointing, just like with Moses and Elijah. It was not the work of men but the Holy Spirit in and through them. So shall it be again. All Glory to YAHUAH.

I don't think it's confusing that Revelation 11 is pointing to two literal witnesses, in Jerusalem on earth, AND also to two symbolic Churches that represent Christ's elect.

The event in Rev.11 of two men that are killed with their dead bodies left laying in the street, literally, is very detailed, as we are told the 'nations' are going to SEE their dead bodies left unburied (Revelation 11:8-9). In connection with the nations seeing them, they will rejoice over them, and throw parties and give each other gifts (Revelation 11:10).

Just HOW... will the nations SEE the dead bodies of the two witnesses left unburied in the street in Jerusalem? It's called satellite technology, cell phones, TV media.

Why would the coming false Messiah and those with him not allow burial of the bodies of those two dead witnesses? I believe it's because of how our Lord Jesus told the scribes and Pharisees that if they destroyed His body, He would raise in 3 days...

Matt 27:62-64
62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, "Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, 'After three days I will rise again.'
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night, and steal Him away, and say unto the people, 'He is risen from the dead': so the last error shall be worse than the first.
KJV

I'm thinking the dead bodies of the two witnesses will be left laying in the street in Jerusalem, with live cameras on them, to show the world that they will not rise; just as the scribes and Pharisees placed their soldiers to guard Jesus' tomb because of Jesus saying He would rise in three days. For these reasons per the Rev.11 Scripture, I believe the two witnesses being two literal men is emphatic and unmistakable. It must be so in order to fulfill that prophecy of their rising after three and one half days, shocking the whole world who will see it.

As for the mention of two candlesticks, that also is clear that it's two symbolic Churches, because Jesus defined the candlesticks in Revelation 1. In Mark 13, and Revelaiton 6 on the 5th Seal, and also in Revelation 12:11, we are shown about Christ's servants that give a Testimony (or Witness) for Him. Jesus said some of us will be delivered up to councils and synagogues to give a Testimony, and to not premediate what we will say, but whatever The Holy Spirit gives us to speak in that hour, that speak. I believe that future event during the great tribulation is linked with the cloven tongue that manifested on Pentecost. God is going to speak through His servants against the beast during the tribulation, and Jesus said those would be given to speak words that the gainsayers would not be able to resist (Luke 21:14-15).

And if you look at all the leaven doctrines of men (from the devil) about those events, you'll find every one of them is against the above Scripture declaration, like Satan knows that is going to happen at the end against him, and he wants to hide it from brethren, hoping we will seek to escape that future duty during the trib.

whirlwind said:

THE TWO WITNESSES​

Are these two literal entities or...two groups of witnesses?

Revelation 11:3-4 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth” These are the two olive trees AND the two candlesticks, standing before the God of the earth.​

For some reason I always saw that verse as the olive trees and candlesticks being the same thing. They are not. He explains:

Zechariah 4:2 And said unto me, "What seest thou?" And I said, "I have looked, and behold, a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:"​

Christ of course is that One golden candlestick and from Him the olive trees and candlesticks receive the Holy Oil which gives His Light to the world. But, what are those olive trees and candlesticks...for they together are the two witnesses.

Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.​

Christ, The Golden Candlestick was in the midst of seven candlesticks which He explains are "the seven churches." Notice that in the millennium He is with the seven churches but...not before the millennium. Then He is only among two churches.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks, The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.​

So, we see that candlesticks are churches and two of those seven are "standing before the God of the earth." [Revelation 11:4] Those two I believe would be Philadelphia and Smyrna because of what they teach. (another study for another time) There are many more folks than two that make up the congregation of those two churches/candlesticks. But, what of the two olive trees? What does that mean?

Zechariah 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?​

We are told in [Zechariah 4:12-14] that the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth, are the two olive branches. Those branches have many twigs.Those two anointed ones are two of the seven churches and the two olive trees....both wild and natural.

Psalms 52:8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with Him after He rose from the dead.Isaiah 43:10. Ye are My witnesses,” saith the Lord, “and My Servant Whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me.43:12 I have declared and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are My witnesses,” saith the Lord, “that I am God.Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,​

In conclusion, the two witnesses, the two prophets, the two anointed ones are made up of two of the seven churches and two olive trees which are Gentile and of Israel. Together they take His message, the oil from Him, to the world.

Click to expand...

The two witnesses represented the saints/holy ones/anointed Christians who were on earth at the time of Jesus' enthronement.

The Two Witnesses are BOTH -
There will be Two actual Witnesses from the OT which would be the Two who were taken and did not see death. These two are assigned to Jerusalem on earth who are in bondage with Her children(Galatians ch4).

The other Two Witnesses are only His Elect who are filled with the Holy Spirit(OIL/LAMPS) = Elect + HS7 = 1+1=2
We see them in Matthew 25:1-13 and in Acts and in Revelation

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on"

I've just glanced at this post, but see I should read everyone's opinion as theories are brought up that I've never heard before. I've only heard that these are two men, so then the question is who. I came up with Moses and Elijah, the two witnesses on the Mt. of Transfiguration. When I have time, I'll come back to this post and read it through.