The "like manner" of Acts 1:9-11

ScottA said:

you must know that Satan will give the same answer as you are likely to, right? Of course He would,

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Satan is a "He"? with a capital "H"? Really?

ScottA said:

This is a big subject, one that has not been fully understood and even taught in error for 2000+ years. I will try to address things one at a time and concisely:

I am not out of context...but you are correct, each body does produce "after his kind." But the leap is not out of context, but rather out of kind, because "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit." Meaning, that "the flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven"...nor populate it. Thus, we must be born again, born also of the spirit of God, after who's kind is spirit. And if I said nothing more--these things are true, and I am correct in what I have told you.

As for the resurrection and the account of Lazarus...nothing has been seen by men unless it was revealed. Thus, in the world, all things including men and flesh, were spoken into existence--that is into an image. Just as God has said He "created man in His own image", that is what we are...which is of the same dust of the earth and its elements, meaning they too are images. Now, if this is too much for you to follow and something you are not familiar with...that does not make it untrue. Nonetheless, we live in the times of our being lead unto all truth, so I make no apology for sharing it as it was given to me.

Continuing on then, the account Lazarus--and even Jesus, are revelations revealed within the limitations of the natural, but about spiritual things. As such, it is of no benefit to lean on natural understanding or to split technical hairs, for it is all just examples of what is otherwise above the understanding of men until that time we become like Him...which if you have not perceived, is spirit. So, if I go off in that direction leaving behind the elementary principles, you should have expected it. Question it, test it, compare the scriptures, but there should be no doubt that all truth and that which is beyond the imagination of natural man, is to be expected. So, if you lean back on the natural examples, you will favor the flesh, bringing forth the things of the flesh. But I lean (press) onward. But not blindly, not with speculation or conjecture--God does not work that way. So, test away. But if I have agreed with scripture, you can either be honest or join those who killed the prophets.

Back to Lazarus and Jesus, coming back to life. God can, for revelation, easily do that, and did. And walking through walls--easy. Remember, the whole creation was spoken into existence. The question is why, and where is it that this all leads. Well, the answer is not that God had intended to evolve men from natural flesh to glorified flesh. Paul makes it very clear that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." But that is not even the issue--the issue is that God is producing children--spiritual children, without flesh, or shadow of turning...His likeness. Not only in His image, but after His likeness, which is spirit.

Or...did you not believe the whole born again of the spirit of God thing?

You might want to think about getting with the program.

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Hello @ScottA,

Thank you for responding, and endeavouring to explain. I have read what you have said, but now I need to try to fully comprehend it, before making reply.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

justbyfaith said:

It is the standard for us in English.

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Not today, but like I said if you or anyone else would rather use the KJV of the Bible that's fine, I have no problem with what version of the Bible a person chooses to use.

justbyfaith said:

No, they don't. Consider...

Jhn 2:18, Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
Jhn 2:19, Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

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The context must be examined. Joh 2 Verses 13 to 18 show that Jesus had cleansed the literal temple at Jerusalem, routing from it those who were making it a place of merchandise, and as a result had been confronted with this question from the Jews: “What sign have you to show us, since you are doing these things?” Then in Joh 2 verse 19 Jesus told them the sign. Joh 2 Verses 20-22 continue: “Therefore the Jews said: ‘This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?’ But he was talking about the temple of his body. When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples called to mind that he used to say this."

This setting shows that Jesus was not talking about his physical body, but “he was talking about the temple of his body”. The temple in Jerusalem that Jesus cleansed represented not Jesus alone but also the body-members over which he is head. Just as the literal temple was not made up of one stone but many, so “the temple of his body” consists of many living stones, with Jesus as the foundation cornerstone: “You yourselves also as living stones are being built up a spiritual house for the purpose of a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” (1 Pet. 2:4-7 ) After the Jewish religionists rejected Christ the living stone and broke him down by death on the torture stake, on the third day thereafter Jehovah God raised him up to become the chief cornerstone of the temple of living stones then under preparation. He immediately appeared to his disciples and lifted them up out of their despondency, built them up spiritually so that they could “offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God”. That this building of “the temple of his body” started then and continued through the years that followed is shown by Peter’s use of the present tense when years afterward he said Christ’s followers “are being built up a spiritual house”.

Now with this broadened view of matters we must return to the consideration of Jesus’ words, “In three days I will raise it up.” We have seen how he did start giving attention to the building up of the temple of living stones after his resurrection on the third day of his death. Yet it might be argued with some force that since Jesus was to be the chief cornerstone and he was the firstfruits of the resurrection, the first one to be built up for use in the construction of the spiritual house or temple, we cannot eliminate him entirely from this building work and apply the expressions concerning it to his followers only. Yet we cannot say that Jesus raised himself, for he was dead, and the trinity doctrine, being proved false by so many scriptures, cannot be appealed to as a basis for saying he was dead only as Christ but alive as God, and hence could, as God, raise himself, as Christ. Moreover, as we have previously noted, Joh 2 verse 22 specifically states that “he was raised up from the dead”, not that he raised himself. Is there any way, then, that we could understand and harmonize in a reasonable way Jesus’ statement that “in three days I will raise it up”, having it embrace his own resurrection as chief cornerstone as well as the building up of his followers as living stones?

There does seem to be such a reasonable explanation. When Jesus said, “Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” he was speaking in a predictive sense; not that he would raise himself up, but that he predicted that three days after he was broken in death by his enemies the temple of God would begin to be raised up, beginning with him as the head member of it. We have examples of this predictive use of a term elsewhere in the Bible, where an individual says he will do a thing, but he actually does not do it at all. It comes about only as a result of his action.

For instance, at Isaiah 6:9, 10, where Jehovah appears to Isaiah and says, “Go, and tell this people.” And then what does he say? He says: “Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.” Now, God did not mean for Isaiah to actually go and fatten their hearts and stop up their ears and close their eyes to forestall any repentance; but he was predicting that that would be the effect of the message that Isaiah had been commanded to go tell the people, that the people themselves would show closed eyes and unhearing ears and fatty hearts, that they would not repent and turn to Jehovah for healing spiritually.

A similar usage is found at Ezekiel 43:3, where Ezekiel sees the vision of Jehovah coming to the temple, and says it was “according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city”. But Ezekiel did not come to destroy Jerusalem; he came only to predict the destruction of the city by the Babylonians. Yet he spoke of himself as doing it, you see. So in the same predictive sense Jesus could speak as though he was going to raise himself, yet actually he would be resurrected by Jehovah God.

Then we also have that controversial text where it says Jehovah hardened the heart of Pharaoh. He said: “I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you.” (Ex. 7:3, 4) Now, Jehovah did not harden the heart of Pharaoh, but he was predicting that Pharaoh’s heart would be hardened as a result of the message sent to him by Moses and Aaron, and that the repeated extension of God’s mercy to him would not soften him but would cause his heart to harden even more. It is not unusual for wicked men to interpret Jehovah’s long-suffering as a sign of weakness and thus become more set in their evil ways, thinking the time of reckoning will never come. This is shown by Ecclesiastes 8:11: “Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.”

There are a number of other Scriptural examples where one person is spoken of as doing a thing, not because he actually does it, but because he predicts it or it results from some action of his. So it is at John 2:19. Jesus’ words, “In three days I will raise it up,” were merely predicting that the temple would be raised up on the third day after his death on the torture stake, and Jehovah God was the one who raised up the temple by first raising up the head member of it, the Lord Jesus Christ, and from then on, from that third day on, God used him to raise up all the other members of the temple class. (Zech. 6:12) So through the Roman military the Jews broke down the chief and initial member of God’s spiritual temple, but on the third day Jehovah raised him as a spirit creature and chief cornerstone of the spiritual temple.

Barney, what is the naive dialectic bro?
yikes

justbyfaith said:

Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

Are you going to report this post as being offensive?

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ScottA said:

Acts 1:11
"Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”​

Now it seems reasonable to determine that the acts of God whom is spirit would in "like manner", be spiritual or in spirit. This would be according to Christ's own clarification that, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6

How is it then, that so many (nearly all) people read of Jesus' ascension where He delivers on His committing only His spirit to the Father, consider the "like manner" to be the likeness of the flesh and what is common to this world...when the subject is the kingdom of God which is not of this world? What is the likeness to the things of the flesh and the things of this world?

I tell you--there is none!

It would appear that few have actually taken to heart that those born of the flesh, in addition to the need to be born again of the spirit of God...also need to develop a new perspective, a kingdom perspective, the "renewing of your mind" to spiritual things...and let that fleshly and worldly perspective die once and for all with that "old man."

And then get ready...because the word of God will take on a whole new meaning "in spirit and in truth!"

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life, more abundantly is surely accomplished in the flesh, so i particularly like the dialectic that is able to say flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom (which is of course within you, a flesh and blood unit) and mean basically the exact opposite, probably, "flesh thinking and blood thinking cannot inherit..."

justbyfaith said:

It is the standard for us in English.

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wouldnt the fact that many will be deceived and few there are who find it argue against any human standard as being the best one? Wouldnt that by definition be the very worst Bible we could read? The one that the most like? HFCS for the spirit, maybe?

Hello @ScottA,
Thank you for endeavouring to explain yourself further. I will address your words section by section:-

* I know and recognise that, ' ... that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit ... ': though that statement of itself does not tell us that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; but 1 Corinthians 15:50 does:-

'As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:
and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren,
that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.'
(1 Corinthians 15:48)

* 'Flesh and blood' cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Yet, in this same chapter, we are told that our bodies will be changed in the moment of resurrection, ' ... it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. ... ' (1 Corinthians 15:44) - Our Lord's body consisted of 'flesh and bone', (not blood) and the members of His church, which comprise His Body here on earth, as I said before, are spoken of as being, ' ... members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.' (Ephesians 5:30). The Lord's resurrected body was a spiritual body, consisting of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).
* Lazarus was restored to life, earthly life, but was still subject to death. This was physically witnessed, and recorded for our learning. We either believe this witness as to the fact of it having taken place or not. It requires no revelation from above to receive knowledge of this miraculous event, only faith in God's ability to perform it, in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.

* God created the heaven and the earth, and all living things within it, either plant, animal, fowl or man, I agree. In making man, we are told that He physically formed man of the dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. That required that He Himself had to have taken creature form in order to do so, for God is 'spirit,' therefore invisible. The One Who became known to us, as the Lord Jesus Christ, Who took creature form in order to redeem us, was there in the beginning with God, He was Himself, 'The image of the invisible God': His 'express image' (Hebrews 1:3): so was it not in His image (or likeness) that we were made (Genesis 1:26)?
* Both accounts, either of the resurrection of Lazarus to earthly life, or the Lord Jesus Christ with a spiritual body are Biblically factual: though what both these deaths and subsequent resurrections are intended to convey require revelation from above, to receive and believe by faith.
* Yes, Praise God! He can and did perform these wonders.
* Yes, it is God's will that we should be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:29). He has also given us the spirit of sonship, whereby we can call Him 'Father'.
* Yes, I am born from above, by God's grace.

'Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,
.. that we should be called the sons of God:
.... therefore the world knoweth us not,
...... because it knew Him not.
Beloved, now are we the sons of God,
.. and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:
.... but we know that,
...... when He shall appear,
........ we shall be like Him;
.......... for we shall see Him as He is.'
(1 John 3:1)

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

I know there are those who have been taught that Jesus Christ himself was raised with the very same body in which he was crucified, and that fact sets the pattern for all the other dead who are to be resurrected. And Jesus now has that same body in heaven to which he ascended.’ These people have been taught so in the religious systems that they have attended. But does the apostle Paul agree with that? In 1 Peter 3:18, 19 he says, according to The New English Bible of 1961: “For Christ also died for our sins once for all. He, the just, suffered for the unjust, to bring us to God. In the body he was put to death; in the spirit he was brought to life. And in the spirit he went and made his proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.” Other modern translations of 1 Peter 3:18, 19 read similarly.

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Hmmm...not so fast. There is also the truthful view!
"Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission".
The blood of Christ was poured out through His nailed hands and feet, until His heart quit pumping it, which brought about the death of His mortal body. IOWS, no blood transfusion or resuscitation of His
"flesh and blood" body, was going to bring Him back from the dead. Therefore, without blood, HE DID Resurrect into NEW Life by the Spirit of God.
Jesus is "the FIRSTborn from the DEAD", being that of "flesh and bone", by and with the Spirit of God.

HE is, and always will be, "the second Adam" , as well as being the second Person of the Godhead.
Being now the "God-man", he is NOW permanently and forever identified with us, as the scriptures say: "God is with us"- Emmanuel, but for now, He is ONLY partially "with us", through the "born again" experience.
However, in our physical bodily resurrection, we and Him will then be permanently with Him forever.
THAT IS the length and depth of His Sacrifice!!
Did you want to think that God the Father GAVE His Son to us, for only the one day of His Crucifixion?

Just as Jesus once was only Spirit, and was always one with the Father, so now through the shedding of His blood, and His Resurrection into a NEW Creation of "flesh and bone" with the Spirit, He still is always one with the Father.

But now, because of His Sacrifice, both the Father and the Son can dwell/live within us together as the Comforter, God's Holy Spirit, thus sealing us unto the Day of Redemption.

In that Day, of His Physical and Glorious return from Heaven, it shall be a simultaneous event, to judge "the quick (saved) and the dead (unsaved)".
2 Timothy 4:1, 1 Peter 4:5. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
The destruction of the wicked, who have not the Spirit of God- Romans 8:9, and then that of our resurrection into Christ's likeness of Immortal "flesh and bone", having also the Spirit of God.
Emmanual- God is with us!

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

Yet we cannot say that Jesus raised himself, for he was dead,

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Jesus did indeed raise Himself (John 10:17-18)

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

on the torture stake,

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On the Cross; for He was crucified (John 19:18).

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

When Jesus said, “Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” he was speaking in a predictive sense; not that he would raise himself up, but that he predicted that three days after he was broken in death by his enemies the temple of God would begin to be raised up, beginning with him as the head member of it.

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He was speaking of His own physical body, in context; as there was no revelation of the church as His body as of yet. And He did indeed rise bodily from the dead after three days; thus fulfilling His statement that "after three days I will raise it up;" speaking of the temple of His body.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

merely predicting that the temple would be raised up on the third day after his death

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And, He was speaking of the temple of His own physical, human body, in context; not referring to the number of those who would become a part of His body through faith in Him, later. For that revelation was not yet given. Therefore, as it is to be understood, according to the historical account, wherein Jesus rose bodily from the dead after three days; it is speaking of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.

ScottA said:

That "flesh and blood unit" is just an outward image, but having no actual substance. Matter is a myth. God spoke and cast us in His "image." Like an image in a mirror, it only reflects God's word on the whole matter.

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wadr "matter is a myth" strikes me about like "law is neither disobeyed nor broken" does, and imo both perspectives deny Scripture, no offense. Much Scripture. Sure, matter is vapor in a sense, but "myth" is demonstrably taking that too far. Flesh and blood are all that can inherit, and everything we do matters imo, unlike the nihilist perspective of "all is vanity, why bother," etc

Barney Bright wrote:
" In 1 Peter 3:18, 19 he says, according to The New English Bible of 1961: “For Christ also died for our sins once for all. He, the just, suffered for the unjust, to bring us to God. In the body he was put to death; in the spirit he was brought to life. And in the spirit he went and made his proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.” Other modern translations of 1 Peter 3:18, 19 read similarly."
> I don't think that the Bible version you cited is equivalent to the KJV, though it is equivalent to the **JW-NWT. Maybe that is why you referenced the **NEB of 1961?

> The KJV speaks of what Peter says giving a totally different scenario!
I color coded the words, so that you can grasp the meaning of "when" and "how" Christ preached to the spirits in prison. All word Insertions [....] are mine.

[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but [himself] quickened [being made alive to God] by the Spirit:
[19] By which [the same Spirit] also, he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
[20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing,
wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

> Therefore, the KJV tells one plainly, of
"when" it was that Christ in the Spirit preached to the spirits in prison. It was "when" God was longsuffering towards them and waiting. Which was "while [when] the ark was a preparing".

Since it is readily apparent that Christ preached to the spirits in prison, while the ark was being built, during the days of Noah, in what form of being was Christ, when He preached to "spirits" during Noah's time of building the ark.
Please select the correct answer:
1. An angel.
2. In the "flesh and bone" of His Resurrection.
3. HImself as the Spirit of God the Son.
4. God the Father.
5. Noah as a Prophet.
Clue: KJV- John 1:1, 14

**Note:
The KJV is translated from the "Textus Receptus Greek Text" .
The JW-NWT and the NEB are translated from the "Wescott and Hort Greek Text" .

@ScottA,

Matter is a myth.

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You have now revealed your true gnostic colors.

Earburner said:

Barney Bright wrote:
" In 1 Peter 3:18, 19 he says, according to The New English Bible of 1961: “For Christ also died for our sins once for all. He, the just, suffered for the unjust, to bring us to God. In the body he was put to death; in the spirit he was brought to life. And in the spirit he went and made his proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.” Other modern translations of 1 Peter 3:18, 19 read similarly."
> I don't think that the Bible version you cited is equivalent to the KJV, though it is equivalent to the **JW-NWT. Maybe that is why you referenced the **NEB of 1961?

> The KJV speaks of what Peter says giving a totally different scenario!
I color coded the words, so that you can grasp the meaning of "when" and "how" Christ preached to the spirits in prison. All word Insertions [....] are mine.

[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but [himself] quickened [being made alive to God] by the Spirit:
[19] By which [the same Spirit] also, he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
[20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing,
wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

> Therefore, the KJV tells one plainly, of
"when" it was that Christ in the Spirit preached to the spirits in prison. It was "when" God was longsuffering towards them and waiting. Which was "while [when] the ark was a preparing".

Since it is readily apparent that Christ preached to the spirits in prison, while the ark was being built, during the days of Noah, in what form of being was Christ, when He preached to "spirits" during Noah's time of building the ark.
Please select the correct answer:
1. An angel.
2. In the "flesh and bone" of His Resurrection.
3. HImself as the Spirit of God the Son.
4. God the Father.
5. Noah as a Prophet.
Clue: KJV- John 1:1, 14

**Note:
The KJV is translated from the "Textus Receptus Greek Text" .
The JW-NWT and the NEB are translated from the "Wescott and Hort Greek Text" .

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3 and 4.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

Not today, but like I said if you or anyone else would rather use the KJV of the Bible that's fine, I have no problem with what version of the Bible a person chooses to use.

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Are you sure? it renders Jesus' death as being a crucifixion...

ScottA said:

And you, your dark heart.

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Judge not (except based on fruit), lest ye be judged.