Faithful and Just to Forgive . . .

Cooper · Jan 31, 2020

Regarding 1 John 1:9 I got this from the Believers Bible. It is a bit deep but I thought I would post it anyway.

"The forgiveness John speaks about here is parental, not judicial. Judicial forgiveness means forgiveness from the penalty of sins, which the sinner receives when he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. It is called judicial because it is granted by God acting as Judge. But what about sins which a person commits after conversion? As far as the penalty is concerned, the price has already been paid by the Lord Jesus on the cross of Calvary. But as far as fellowship in the family of God is concerned, the sinning saint needs parental forgiveness, that is, the forgiveness of His Father. He obtains it by confessing his sin. We need judicial forgiveness only once; that takes care of the penalty of all our sins—past, present, and future. But we need parental forgiveness throughout our Christian life."

Helen · Jan 31, 2020

Cooper said:
Regarding 1 John 1:9 I got this from the Believers Bible. It is a bit deep but I thought I would post it anyway.

"The forgiveness John speaks about here is parental, not judicial. Judicial forgiveness means forgiveness from the penalty of sins, which the sinner receives when he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. It is called judicial because it is granted by God acting as Judge. But what about sins which a person commits after conversion? As far as the penalty is concerned, the price has already been paid by the Lord Jesus on the cross of Calvary. But as far as fellowship in the family of God is concerned, the sinning saint needs parental forgiveness, that is, the forgiveness of His Father. He obtains it by confessing his sin. We need judicial forgiveness only once; that takes care of the penalty of all our sins—past, present, and future. But we need parental forgiveness throughout our Christian life."

Glad to see that you are getting this thread back on track. I had kinda forgotten how it first started 4 pages back!

Davy · Jan 31, 2020

Cooper said:
Regarding 1 John 1:9 I got this from the Believers Bible. It is a bit deep but I thought I would post it anyway.

"The forgiveness John speaks about here is parental, not judicial. Judicial forgiveness means forgiveness from the penalty of sins, which the sinner receives when he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. It is called judicial because it is granted by God acting as Judge. But what about sins which a person commits after conversion? As far as the penalty is concerned, the price has already been paid by the Lord Jesus on the cross of Calvary. But as far as fellowship in the family of God is concerned, the sinning saint needs parental forgiveness, that is, the forgiveness of His Father. He obtains it by confessing his sin. We need judicial forgiveness only once; that takes care of the penalty of all our sins—past, present, and future. But we need parental forgiveness throughout our Christian life."

That paragraph is really like talking out of both sides of one's mouth. I know you didn't write it Cooper, but you really need to be careful with that, because it doesn't really align with God's Word. I mean, our Lord Jesus showed He will close the door on some believers because of their following iniquity (i.e., the "outer darkness" idea). Like the paragraph above, I'm not saying Jesus won't save those eventually, that's not up to us. But just having the salvation door shut on you when our Lord Jesus returns is a lot more serious than some Jewish idea of a supposed difference between Christ's judgment as Judge vs. our Lord.

CharismaticLady · Jan 31, 2020

Helen said:
And the sign of the N.C is His death and resurrection.

I also believe that Jesus mentioned- " Those who "seek signs".

Why does anyone "need" a greater sign that Jesus Christ Himself. View attachment 8544

Christ Himself is the sum of all spiritual things.

There is a difference between the world and the church. You have to be able to see the whole picture.

An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign

vs.

Jesus also said, these SIGNS shall follow those who believe... Mark 16:16-18. Won't those be after His death and resurrection? Think about it.

The evil and adulterous generation would have no covenant with God (with its sign, or any of the gifts of the Spirit). They would first need to accept Christ, the sign of Jonah, not reject Him, and those who love darkness never will. But they still seek after a sign and will accept those of the Antichrist.

CharismaticLady · Jan 31, 2020

Cooper said:
Regarding 1 John 1:9 I got this from the Believers Bible. It is a bit deep but I thought I would post it anyway.

"The forgiveness John speaks about here is parental, not judicial. Judicial forgiveness means forgiveness from the penalty of sins, which the sinner receives when he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. It is called judicial because it is granted by God acting as Judge. But what about sins which a person commits after conversion? As far as the penalty is concerned, the price has already been paid by the Lord Jesus on the cross of Calvary. But as far as fellowship in the family of God is concerned, the sinning saint needs parental forgiveness, that is, the forgiveness of His Father. He obtains it by confessing his sin. We need judicial forgiveness only once; that takes care of the penalty of all our sins—past, present, and future. But we need parental forgiveness throughout our Christian life."

I don't think this explanation is anywhere near scriptural. In fact, I think it is gross error. It is from the false doctrine that our "past, present and future" sins are forgiven, turning the grace of God into licentiousness Jude 1:4. When we come to Christ, only our past sins are forgiven at that point. 2 Peter 1:9

1 John 1:9 is how to become a Christian.

Cooper · Feb 1, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
I don't think this explanation is anywhere near scriptural. In fact, I think it is gross error. It is from the false doctrine that our "past, present and future" sins are forgiven, turning the grace of God into licentiousness Jude 1:4. When we come to Christ, only our past sins are forgiven at that point. 2 Peter 1:9

1 John 1:9 is how to become a Christian.

I wondered about that myself. I have just come away from a "Grace" forum, and I am heartily opposed to their teaching. To my mind it is a licence to sin. But that leaves the question, how are we forgiven if we do sin?

CharismaticLady · Feb 1, 2020

Cooper said:
I wondered about that myself. I have just come away from a "Grace" forum, and I am heartily opposed to their teaching. To my mind it is a licence to sin. But that leaves the question, how are we forgiven if we do sin?

There are two types of sin. (1) Willful sins against the laws of God - sins unto death, and (2) unintentional, unknown sins against each other (slights that cause hurt feelings, etc.) - sins NOT unto death called trespasses.

1. When we first recognize ourselves as weak and sinful and we truly repent (key) and come to Jesus, He completely cleanses us of all our past sin. (2 Peter 1:9). This is when Jesus gives us the gift of His Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). God's seed. 1 John 3 talk of this type of sin. 1 John 3:4. But the Spirit in us who has made us born again with a completely different nature that is divine, not carnal, cannot commit these sins anymore with God's seen in us. (1 John 3:9) (Romans 8:9) In the Old Testament there were no sacrifices to cover this type of sin - they were stoned to death. Thus sins unto death. Anyone who is still able to commit sins of lawlessness, like stealing or adultery, never had the Holy Spirit in the first place, thus never belonged to Jesus. They must truly repent and turn away, and like David, ask to be completely cleansed (Psalms 51) and receive Christ's power to never sin willfully again. Personally, I was in the Church for 30 years in an unsaved state before truly repenting. Receiving the Holy Spirit that night was the most powerful experience of my life, and changed my desires completely.

2. 1 John 1:7 talks of someone saved who is walking in the light/Spirit. They have fellowship with ONE ANOTHER, and the blood of Jesus continues to cleanse them of all sin. Trespasses, unwittingly committed (Leviticus 5:15) are the only kind of sin that we can still commit. But there is a condition to the cleansing blood of Jesus: forgiving each other of trespasses against us. This is the only type of sin in the Lord's Prayer. "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive others their trespasses against us." After the Lord's Prayer Matthew writes, “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." We must walk in love and not hold grudges. Forgive before the trespass can become a root of bitterness for which you must repent of hatred.

With these two taken care of (the first by the power of God, and the second by the fruit of the Spirit) we are sinless, yet still not perfect. To be perfect we must grow. Peter tells us the steps in 2 Peter 1:5-7
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

101G · Feb 1, 2020

marks said:
There is a different side of this I'm looking at, not so much that they are paid for, though the death that they required was given on my behalf.

More like . . .

I did not commit "original sin", that was Adam's doing.
Adam's sin brought the corruption of sin into humanity.
I, being part of humanity, do not escape that.
Being born corrupted by original sin, I inevitably add to Adam's sin my own sin.
And in this I am dead in sin.

There's a sense in which this isn't my fault. It wasn't anything I did that caused me to be born corrupted and dead sin. I never really had a chance!

God is Just, and has relieved the consequences of that which was not my fault. Through faith in Christ, of course!

Much love!

you was never born a sinner, but became one. you only inherited the sin and as you grew in self awarness you acted on it, just like Cain, you acted on this nature. that's why one need to be born again from above, or of the Spirit. sin is anything not done in faith, which is a learned behaviour. you learn to cuss, or forincate.. ect...... these are acted on. and hence why Laws exist. thy shall not kill. just don't act upon it. see, one don't have to sin., just obey, how? if one is never taught. or have guidelines to go by, (laws). sinning is a choice. Romans 6:12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:13 "Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Just like those before us they said "I can't help it". well that's why we have the "HELPER" for those who can't help it. help has come to help you fight aganist your flesh, that's where sin was condemned at, in the flesh. Galatians 5:17 "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would".

Romans 7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (hence our redemption).
Romans 7:15 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do
I.Romans 7:16 "If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Romans 7:17 "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:19 "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Romans 7:20 "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:21 "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22 "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23 "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? BONGO, DELIVERANCE to come, hence the topic, we confess, he forgives.

Romans 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Willie did you pick up on ... "Bongo?". ..... (smile). as with "in-death"......

PICJAG.

Cooper · Feb 1, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
There are two types of sin. (1) Willful sins against the laws of God - sins unto death, and (2) unintentional, unknown sins against each other (slights that cause hurt feelings, etc.) - sins NOT unto death called trespasses.

1. When we first recognize ourselves as weak and sinful and we truly repent (key) and come to Jesus, He completely cleanses us of all our past sin. (2 Peter 1:9). This is when Jesus gives us the gift of His Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). God's seed. 1 John 3 talk of this type of sin. 1 John 3:4. But the Spirit in us who has made us born again with a completely different nature that is divine, not carnal, cannot commit these sins anymore with God's seen in us. (1 John 3:9) (Romans 8:9) In the Old Testament there were no sacrifices to cover this type of sin - they were stoned to death. Thus sins unto death. Anyone who is still able to commit sins of lawlessness, like stealing or adultery, never had the Holy Spirit in the first place, thus never belonged to Jesus. They must truly repent and turn away, and like David, ask to be completely cleansed (Psalms 51) and receive Christ's power to never sin willfully again. Personally, I was in the Church for 30 years in an unsaved state before truly repenting. Receiving the Holy Spirit that night was the most powerful experience of my life, and changed my desires completely.

2. 1 John 1:7 talks of someone saved who is walking in the light/Spirit. They have fellowship with ONE ANOTHER, and the blood of Jesus continues to cleanse them of all sin. Trespasses, unwittingly committed (Leviticus 5:15) are the only kind of sin that we can still commit. But there is a condition to the cleansing blood of Jesus: forgiving each other of trespasses against us. This is the only type of sin in the Lord's Prayer. "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive others their trespasses against us." After the Lord's Prayer Matthew writes, “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." We must walk in love and not hold grudges. Forgive before the trespass can become a root of bitterness for which you must repent of hatred.

With these two taken care of (the first by the power of God, and the second by the fruit of the Spirit) we are sinless, yet still not perfect. To be perfect we must grow. Peter tells us the steps in 2 Peter 1:5-7
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Jesus knocks at the heart's door, and we bid him enter. We have Jesus in our life who saves us but, Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, while the Holy Spirit is the Third person of the Trinity who has a different role. It is Jesus who saves and it is Jesus who is our judge. Jesus wipes our sins away at conversion, and you say Jesus continues to cleanse us from sin. That is the same as the reformed people, and I am not sure it is much different from what the Believers Bible says, which you condemned saying it gives them licence to live a licentious life.

CharismaticLady · Feb 1, 2020

Cooper said:
Jesus knocks at the heart's door, and we bid him enter. We have Jesus in our life who saves us but, Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, while the Holy Spirit is the Third person of the Trinity who has a different role. It is Jesus who saves and it is Jesus who is our judge. Jesus wipes our sins away at conversion, and you say Jesus continues to cleanse us from sin. That will do for me, and I am not sure that is much different from what the Believers Bible says, and as you say Jesus continues to cleanse us from sin, then that is no different from the Reformed people who say they are always saved, but you say it gives them licence to live a licentious life.

The difference is Jesus is NOT our Advocate for willful sins of lawlessness, only for unintentional trespasses. Reformed believe His blood cleanses us from adultery, murder, etc. which ARE willful sins of lawlessness. That is false but that is what Martin Luther taught! Luther - "even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day, it would not separate us from God." That is turning the grace of God into licentiousness. A true Christian cannot commit these heinous acts; it is not in our new nature.

I suggest you read my last post more carefully.

Cooper · Feb 1, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
The difference is Jesus is NOT our Advocate for willful sins of lawlessness, only for unintentional trespasses. Reformed believe His blood cleanses us from adultery, murder, etc. which ARE willful sins of lawlessness. That is false but that is what Martin Luther taught! Luther - "even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day, it would not separate us from God." That is turning the grace of God into licentiousness. A true Christian cannot commit these heinous acts; it is not in our new nature.

I suggest you read my last post more carefully.

I fully agree with what you say about the inflowing Holy Spirit after accepting Christ as your Saviour, and I agree to walking a life that pleases God, a key theme with David (righteousness). The Reformed people say that is salvation by works. It is not, Jesus is the saviour and our works and righteous living are the evidence of a soul saved by grace. That said, if we are living a life that is right with God, then it is simply a case of walking with the Saviour to the Heavenly mark.

What though, if I did kill my neighbour, is there any recourse?

CharismaticLady · Feb 1, 2020

Cooper said:
I fully agree with what you say about the inflowing Holy Spirit after accepting Christ as your Saviour, and I agree to walking a life that pleases God, a key theme with David (righteousness). The Reformed people say that is salvation by works. It is not, Jesus is the saviour and our works and righteous living are the evidence of a soul saved by grace. That said, if we are living a life that is right with God, then it is simply a case of walking with the Saviour to the Heavenly mark.

What though, if I did kill my neighbour, is there any recourse?

There is kill, and there is murder. What are you saying? Accidentally, or on purpose?

Cooper · Feb 1, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
There is kill, and there is murder. What are you saying? Accidentally, or on purpose?

I was going to suggest the worst case scenario of murder, but clearly that person is not a child of God, that leaves manslaughter, when perhaps someone steps into the road in front of an oncoming car, so no blame there. You might as well forget I asked the question.

marks · Feb 1, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
It is from the false doctrine that our "past, present and future" sins are forgiven, turning the grace of God into licentiousness Jude 1:4. When we come to Christ, only our past sins are forgiven at that point. 2 Peter 1:9

How does forgiven of all sins turn grace into licentiousness? I don't see that being the case. Actually, I see that knowing all sin if forgiven is the key that opens the lock to having victory over sin.

So I see this pretty much the opposite.

Much love!

marks · Feb 1, 2020

Davy said:
I mean, our Lord Jesus showed He will close the door on some believers because of their following iniquity

Could you show me the Scriptures you have in mind on this point?

Thank you!

CharismaticLady · Feb 1, 2020

Cooper said:
I was going to suggest the worst case scenario of murder, but clearly that person is not a child of God, that leaves manslaughter, when perhaps someone steps into the road in front of an oncoming car, so no blame there. You might as well forget I asked the question.

One thing I found in Scripture that I thought was scary, was that for a Christian who has already repented and filled with the Spirit, if we willfully sin afterwards, God may not always accept repentance.

Simon the Sorcerer.
22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.

and about Christians in false doctrine-
2 Timothy 2
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

CharismaticLady · Feb 1, 2020

marks said:
How does forgiven of all sins turn grace into licentiousness? I don't see that being the case. Actually, I see that knowing all sin if forgiven is the key that opens the lock to having victory over sin.

So I see this pretty much the opposite.

Much love!

It is the doctrine that includes automatic forgiveness of present and future sins. That person has no power to not commit those sins, when a true Christian would. 2 Peter 1:9 says our old sins have been forgiven, not future ones that we have been given power not to commit.

Do you believe the doctrine that our "past, present and future" sins are forgiven? How, exactly, is that the key to having victory?

marks · Feb 1, 2020

Cooper said:
I wondered about that myself. I have just come away from a "Grace" forum, and I am heartily opposed to their teaching. To my mind it is a licence to sin. But that leaves the question, how are we forgiven if we do sin?

Hi Cooper,

I think answer to this in in our new creation.

Many come away with the idea that understanding Grace to include total forgiveness of all past present and future sins just gives us this feeling of immunity from prosecution so we can sin willy nilly and not care.

But what I find is just the opposite. Knowing that God has fully and completely solved the sin problem for us is what allows us to realize that God NEVER pushes us away, NEVER withholds His help, and there is NEVER an occasion, no matter what! that I cannot lean on God for deliverance from whatever may be happening.

There's this feeling people get, "I don't deserve this". And when we think that's the key factor, we will not walk in faith. Our faith is shipwrecked on the thought, I can't receive blessing from God unless I deserve it. And I don't deserve it.

But that's the how point! We don't, and we cannot deserve God's help, patience, power, anything. But in Christ all is ours, and be it to you according to your faith.

My faith is that Jesus has rescued me from all sin, from the stain of sin, from the habit of sin, from the damage of sin, from the penalty of sin, He did, not me, I cannot.

My faith is that God ALWAYS relates to me according to the new reality that He created, more generated, in giving birth to me. As a son of God incarnate in a body of corrupt flesh, there always remains the possibility that if I falter in my faith, that corrupt flesh remains ready to take over. But as a son of God, I do have power in the spirit over that flesh.

That power is not used by being strong over my flesh, I'm not that good at that. However, that power is complete when I simply focus my attention on God, that He is here with me, that He loves me, that He at all times has a life for me to live, a wonderful amazing life,

And it is in the certain knowledge of my total justification in the finished work of Christ on the cross, that opens the door wide, that with the same faith that that I was born again, by this same faith in Jesus, I can enter not only into salvation, but into the grace in which I stand.

Standing in Grace - the goodnes that comes from God, His goodness that cleanses us from sin, and leads us in victory - by faith in Jesus, and not in myself.

Anything else is trying to make myself good enough to receive from God.

Will we wait to have peace until we think we deserve it? Or will we by faith receive from God.
Will we wait to walk in power until we think we deserve it? Or will we walk by faith?

So many are afraid to embrace Grace thinking that if they aren't focused on controlling their behaviour they will just run wild. While the reality is that God is the One Who sanctifies us, and if we simply look to Him in trust, that's exactly what He will do.

Much love!

marks · Feb 1, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
Do you believe the doctrine that our "past, present and future" sins are forgiven? How, exactly, is that the key to having victory?

We think God judges us the way we judge ourselves, and therefore close the door to His help, when in fact it is us, and not God that closes that door.

We don't think we deserve His help because we know we are wrong, we believe that we've separated ourselves, and we don't walk in faith.

But knowing that all sin is removed from us, sent away from us, then even the sin I just now committed does not separate me from God, nothing can ever separate me from God, so I remain in His presence and in His care 24/7, no matter what, and He always is loving me, and filling me, and guiding me, and cleansing me, everything He does He continues to do, not because I've been good, but because I believe Him.

Not because I've been good.

Only in faith.

This is what I've found in my life. Any urges to sin are swallowed up in the knowledge of God's presence with me, and His love for me. Weakness becomes strength. Sorrow becomes joy. Life is fruitful. And I walk in His love, and peace, and there is no sin.

Because I know that that's what He does in me, and that even if I do fall short of that calling, even so, it's not about what I do, it's about what Jesus did, and when I realize I've stopped walking in faith, there is no hindrance to return to the walk of faith at that moment.

Much love!

Davy · Feb 1, 2020

Cooper said:
I wondered about that myself. I have just come away from a "Grace" forum, and I am heartily opposed to their teaching. To my mind it is a licence to sin. But that leaves the question, how are we forgiven if we do sin?

The 1 John 1:9 verse tells you how we are forgiven, IF we repent to Jesus about it.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
KJV

The reason the Hyper-Grace movement is so dangerous is because it is teaching the believer they no longer have need to repent of any sin they might do after having believed on Christ Jesus and been baptized. Since they interpret NT Scripture to mean we can't sin anymore after believing on Jesus Christ and baptized, often they also do away with the concept of repentance after that altogether.

But in Luke 11, one of our Lord's disciples asked Him how to pray, and what Jesus gave them to pray also is our example when we pray. In it Jesus included the asking forgiveness of our sins.

Communion with Jesus is another matter directly related. That communion time is a personal time with our Lord Jesus each one of us is to use to work out our problems directly in 'private' with Him. This is why most Churches are in silence when handing out the symbolic bread and wine, because that is a time of introspection on our behavior and things we've done and taking to our Lord Jesus, repenting as necessary and asking forgiveness. And you can bet Satan does not want us to do this communion with Christ Jesus at all.

Faithful and Just to Forgive . . .

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