Hell

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TimMorgan

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Dear Staff,One of my most troubling queryies about this religion is hell I have heard it told in many lights but since you seem verry aware of what your talking about i would like to ask you. First off, what is Hell. Is it truly a pit of eternal fire and pain. Also what must you do to get into hell or heaven for that matter. I hpe you can help meTim Morgan
 

HammerStone

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Tim, much confusion arises from the topic of Hell in the Christian faith. This is due to the lack of understanding of Hebraisms and the Greek language used to communicate it in the New Testament. Start with a verse you may have heard somewhere before:QUOTE
Matthew 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Christ is telling us here that the big issue is not being killed on this Earth in this old body -- nothing is certain but death and taxes, right? Instead, fear the one that can "kill the soul...in hell." Contrary to the popular notions out there, hell is not eternal. I hate to pin a false doctrine on any one person, or work, but Paradise Lost(John Milton) has too much to do with modern notions of hell. (Which wasn't the aim of Mr. Milton, given that he was an Author and not a Preacher.)One of the popular places to grab eternal torment is in Revelation:QUOTE
Revelation 14:10-11The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
The only part that at first glance looks like eternal torment is the rising of the smoke forever; however, this is a Hebraism simply meaning the only remnant of these people into hell aka. the lake of fire, is this wisp of smoke which rises and rises forever through the air.QUOTE
Revelation 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
This is one of the other verses that some point out eternal torture. And, I know this is an issue for some Christians because most translations say something pretty similar. However, I will submit that it's a very bad rendering of the Greek. The Greek here means something more akin to the end of the age than for ever and ever.Now all of this can begin to take one into a deeper topic and deeper study within the faith, because there are reasons for the above and understanding of that comes in time, but not yet and not here. It's best for me to stay on the topic at hand with you.A few verses on down:QUOTE
Revelation 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Second death is pretty explanatory; when you die on this Earth now, what happens when you die? As a living, breathing person, you cease to exist. Such is the case with the second death. It is oblivion. However, that death won't come until the end of the current era if you will, as told in verse 13:QUOTE
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
This is where the answer to the other part of your question comes. We are judged according to what we do. God is merely looking for people who love Him and do his work. It's the peace beyond understanding that is spoken of in the New Testament, because your goal is to witness what you have seen and know, all the time knowing that this will benefit them.One of my favorite verses, which comes from the Old Testament of sin offerings and sacrifices:QUOTE
Hosea 6:6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Mercy being another word for love. That's all he wants, the rest falls into place.To continue this, I suggest you read this study, as it was done for those like yourself that want to understand what's going on. It's a decent study that answers your second part a little more fully.
 

TimMorgan

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Thank You Denver, for responding. Now with my second question to love him and do his work does this mean if you only do one yo will not go to heaven. For example if you were a firefighter and saved many people and donated most of your money to charity but were an atheist would you go to heaven or hell. Or If you were a devout christian and a murderer. And finally do sociopaths go to heaven or hell. I know you won't be able to answer this question exactly you not being god but I'd like to hear your opinion on it.
 

HammerStone

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Now with my second question to love him and do his work does this mean if you only do one yo will not go to heaven. For example if you were a firefighter and saved many people and donated most of your money to charity but were an atheist would you go to heaven or hell.
Well, I hope I didn't mislead you too much in this posting about works. Works don't come about for God until your heart is first right with God. That's why I directed you to the study. If these works are done by someone with God in mind so to speak, then that's what counts in God's eye:QUOTE
Luke 12:43Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Keep in mind this is part of a parable, which is a lesson. Each person is judged according to what they were given. This is at different levels for different people. At least theoretically, this may have been on act that saved many or many acts that saved just one. Another look into God's heart:QUOTE
Matthew 18:11-14For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
What I'm trying to get here is that it's more about the context of the deed than the deed/work itself. That is where God is the judge of the person and will determine where they go. The work is ultimately defined by God as to whether it is good or not. Is the work of the atheist in vain, if he is not yet with God in his heart? I don't think so; I don't believe much in this world happens as a result of coincidence, and more importantly the Bible seems to convey that message as well.QUOTE
Or If you were a devout christian and a murderer.
There is actually Biblical precedence for this, in the form of King David.QUOTE
Acts 13:22And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
So, to answer your question perhaps a little cryptically, God is judge.
 

TimMorgan

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Very well but does that mean we really don't know how god judges us. also in a slightly unrelated subject do you think god plays favorites for example killing everyone but noah or killing the first born sons I don't mean that as an insult and if you take it as one I apologize. Also do you think sociopaths go to heaven or hell
 

HammerStone

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Very well but does that mean we really don't know how god judges us.
No, contrary to what some denominations think you cannot judge each person and say that person is going to heaven/hell. However, He gave us a book that tells you how to get to heaven, so we have a pretty good idea to say the least. That's why Christianity is a religion that centers on personal responsibility, because ultimately you determine if you get into heaven.QUOTE
also in a slightly unrelated subject do you think god plays favorites for example killing everyone but noah or killing the first born sons I don't mean that as an insult and if you take it as one I apologize.
God is not a respecter of persons. However, there are certain people in both the New and the Old Testaments that God does not like for certain reasons. As I said above, I don't believe anything is of random chance. In fact, as I outlined in the study I linked to, everyone will get their chance, because He desires to save all souls. I mean Job was tormented more than these people were killed, and who did the torment? Satan. Again, fear not them that can kill this flesh body.QUOTE
Also do you think sociopaths go to heaven or hell
I'm not going to make that call in a blanket statement. However, to virtually answer your question, I do believe that there are some very evil people in this world and the fact is, some will go.
 

TimMorgan

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The people god doesn't like. correct me if I'm wrong but I thought god loved everyone. The question on sociopaths was more directed to if the insane are given leeway. Another question since god is omnipotent why doesn't he destroy satan thus creating a utopia. Also I apologize but I will not be on for awhile so we will have to continue this discussion later it was most intriguing though.
 

HammerStone

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The people god doesn't like. correct me if I'm wrong but I thought god loved everyone.
If that's how you perceive it, I don't know that anything I say will change that perception. It's not at all about God not liking the person/people, is quite about the opposite. The real problem is those who are not of God (though they sometimes claim to be) are the source of the trouble (Satan included). Without these people, it would be a perfect world. However, God loves them enough to give them the chance to work through it and save themselves instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.QUOTE
The question on sociopaths was more directed to if the insane are given leeway.
Actually, I think it was more to try and catch a Christian, but my point is that we don't know everything there is to know about the insane. QUOTE
Another question since god is omnipotent why doesn't he destroy satan thus creating a utopia.
The answer was given above in this same post. If God destroys those now, some will never have the chance to know Him through their own choice, and that's truly an unfair proposition.
 

Paul

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So if you don't believe hell is forever, then how long is it?

Thanks,
Endzone


It is forever, in that smoke goes up forever and ever. Once something is ashes it will never again return as what it once was.
 

HammerStone

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Endzone, hell lasts until the end of the age.

[bible=Revelation 20:14]
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
[/bible]

The entire chapter talks about what happens in the lake of fire. Smoking ascending forever and the unquenchable fire are idioms for the righteous fire that will do away with things like Death.
 

brionne

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Dear Staff,One of my most troubling queryies about this religion is hell I have heard it told in many lights but since you seem verry aware of what your talking about i would like to ask you. First off, what is Hell. Is it truly a pit of eternal fire and pain. Also what must you do to get into hell or heaven for that matter. I hpe you can help meTim Morgan


We know what it is in todays language and religions teach it to be a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, are punished . But we really need to know what it was back in the first century when Jesus spoke of it what did HE mean.

Jesus spoke in hebrew therefore when he mentioned 'hell' he used the hebrew word. That word is 'sheol' and it means the grave of mankind. Its the hole in the ground were we are buried...or the state of being dead. In Greek its equivalent is hai′des, and means the common grave of the dead

Eccl. 9:5, 10 shows that there is nothing in 'sheol' there is no fire and there is certainly no consciousness down there “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.”

In Acts 2:25-27 we are told the Jesus spent time in hell when he was dead for 3 days. The KJ version renders it this way: “David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell...” other translations render this verse as “death,” NE; “the place of death,” Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV and “Hades,” AS, RS, JB, NW.


So back in Jesus time and earlier, hell simply meant the state of death and being in the ground. Certainly nothing to be fearful of and its certainly not a place where demons and satan torment the wicked...that idea comes from false pagan relgions and has no place in christianity.
 
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Adstar

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Dear Staff,One of my most troubling queryies about this religion is hell I have heard it told in many lights but since you seem verry aware of what your talking about i would like to ask you. First off, what is Hell. Is it truly a pit of eternal fire and pain. Also what must you do to get into hell or heaven for that matter. I hpe you can help meTim Morgan

From scripture it seems that there is a difference between Hell and the Lake of Fire which is commonly looked upon and referred to as Hell. For the book of Revelation reveals:

Revelation 20
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


So Hell will be cast into the Lake of fire. So Hell cannot be the Lake of Fire.

It seems that Hell is a "temporary holding area" if you like, for those who are destined for the lake of fire.

The Book of Revelation also reveals that those who are destined to the lake of fire will suffer torments there for forever:

Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


The second issue you bring up is the concept most have about people going to heaven for ever and ever. The Book of Revelation indicates that in fact the "New Jerusalem" will be coming down from heaven to earth and God will dwell with men on earth. If you read Revelation chapter 21 you will see that the description of the New Jerusalem is used by many as a description of Heaven.


So first scripture states that the New Jerusalem comes down Out of Heaven so the New Jerusalem cannot be Heaven.

Revealtion 21
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Secondly Scriptures describe it. note how its description is as the popular description of Heaven as most believe it to be like.

Revealtion 21
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

So from scriptures it can be seen that instead of Heaven and Hell there are 4 distinct places Heaven, Hell, New Jerusalem and The Lake of Fire.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

Adstar

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The people god doesn't like. correct me if I'm wrong but I thought god loved everyone.

God's love is available to everyone but if one rejects His love then the benefits of that Love will be lost to that individual.

God's mercy and forgiveness is available to everyone but if one seeks to justify themselves and is offended at the requirement of repentance and seeking forgiveness then that one shall not have the forgiveness that is required to have eternity with God.

The question on sociopaths was more directed to if the insane are given leeway.

God is Just. Therefore He will judge each one according to His total situational awareness.


Another question since god is omnipotent why doesn't he destroy satan thus creating a utopia.

God is Just and therefore must be seen to be justified in front of all creation in casting satan into the eternal lake of fire. Therefore we must go through History to allow satan and those who are with him in spirit to demonstrate to all creation why God is Justly the one and only God of all existence and why satan and his followers in spirit are justly cast into the Lake of Fire.

If God just "destroyed" satan and his followers at the start then God would only be God by His power and might. He would only be a Dictator God. God wants all of creation to willingly follow Him as God. To achieve this He must demonstrate his perfection and reveal the evil of the ones that oppose Him.

Also I apologize but I will not be on for awhile so we will have to continue this discussion later it was most intriguing though.

May you be blessed by this discussion.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

Hawkins

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Dear Staff,One of my most troubling queryies about this religion is hell I have heard it told in many lights but since you seem verry aware of what your talking about i would like to ask you. First off, what is Hell. Is it truly a pit of eternal fire and pain. Also what must you do to get into hell or heaven for that matter. I hpe you can help meTim Morgan

First the concept of Law must be understood,

Human legal system works like this. If you break the Law, you'll be sentenced, whether you understand Law or not, whether you read it or not, whether you ever study law itself or not. That's the case.

Similarly God's Law is embedded in your heart and soul. If you offended His Law, you'll be judged and put to jail. If you sinned you'll be driven out of His kingdom, the same as how Adam sinned and being driven out of Eden, and same as how Lucifer the archangel sinned and being driven out of heaven.

God is to save souls instead of bodies here on earth. Here on earth humans are basically not in His Kingdom. That's why the myseries. And everyone requires to pass the final judgment in order to return to God and His kingdom in heaven. And God foresaw that you won't stand a chance in the judgment. Jesus Christ is thus sent and a new covenant is in place which allows you to escape from the Judgment by Law.

If you refuse to take the new covenant, and when you are judged to be sinful, a permanent separation from God will be called. It is said that His sheep will take the new covenant. It is also said that those who aren't His sheep will continue to sin against His Law without repentance.

Moreover, it is said in the Book of Revelation that Satan (who is said to be an ex-archangel) is an accuser accussing people of sinning in order to keep them in jail with him. So good luck, either to find yourself a good lawyer or prepare yourself for the defense.

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down."

Alternatively, take the Second Covenant as a gift such that the final Judgment by Law can be avoided.

And then the sheol concept,

Sheol is a dark place for human souls to reside, it's not totally equivalent to "grave", else 'grave' is used instead of the strange term 'sheol'. Those Jews following the Oral Torah, including the famous Pharisees believe that humans souls will have to wait in the darkness of sheol for the coming of the final judgment.

The equivalent Greek word for sheol is Hades. Hell can also refer to Hades/sheol, but it bears more meaning then Hades/sheol including the concept of hellfire.

Hellfire is the final state of sheol/Hades after the judgment.

The place where human souls reside;

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV)
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

1 Peter 4:6(NIV)
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Revelation 6:9
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


The same concept can also be found in other early Jews religious document, the book of Enoch,

Chapter 22:3-4
Then Raphael, one of the Holy Angels who was with me, answered me, and said to me: "These beautiful places are there so that the spirits, the souls of the dead, might be gathered into them. For them they were created; so that here they might gather the souls of the sons of men.
And these places they made, where they will keep them until the day of judgement, and until their appointed time, and that appointed time will be long, until the great judgement comes upon them.

So instead of listening to the candy-coated human explanation, you'd better prepare yourself for the worst. Humans think that they know things but as a matter of fact htat noone knows what will happen in a permanent separation from God as no one ever experience such a separation to make a valid conclusion. Prepare yourself for the worst!
 

brionne

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And then the sheol concept,

So instead of listening to the candy-coated human explanation, you'd better prepare yourself for the worst. Humans think that they know things but as a matter of fact htat noone knows what will happen in a permanent separation from God as no one ever experience such a separation to make a valid conclusion. Prepare yourself for the worst!

this sounds like fear mongering 'prepare for the worst' :lol:

Its pretty clear from the scriptures that the ancient hebrews did not have the same concept of an afterlife as did the later jews. The only way to really know exactly what hell/sheol/hades mean is to go back to the original words. Its quite a well known fact what these words all meant back then and we should hold to that same understanding rather then accept the distorted view of the false teachers.


Encyclopaedia Britannica (1971, Vol. 11, p. 276) noted: “Sheol was located somewhere ‘under’ the earth. . . . The state of the dead was one of neither pain nor pleasure. Neither reward for the righteous nor punishment for the wicked was associated with Sheol. The good and the bad alike, tyrants and saints, kings and orphans, Israelites and gentiles—all slept together without awareness of one another.”

Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says: “Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.”

Catholic periodical Commonweal (January 15, 1971) made this comment:
“For many people, some philosophers included, hell answers a need of the human imagination—a sort of Santa Claus in reverse. . . . Who among the righteous doesn’t like to see the unjust get punished with some equity? And if not in this life, why not in the next? Such a view, however, is not compatible with the New Testament, which invites man to life and to love.”




All we really need to know is that God himself does not approve of the torture described by christendoms hellfire to know that it is not a place he would send anyone.

“They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” Jeremiah 7:31
 
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Dear Staff,One of my most troubling queryies about this religion is hell I have heard it told in many lights but since you seem verry aware of what your talking about i would like to ask you. First off, what is Hell. Is it truly a pit of eternal fire and pain. Also what must you do to get into hell or heaven for that matter. I hpe you can help meTim Morgan

We've got a lot of pretty scripture quotations here for you to study, so I won't add to any of them.

Rather I'll write down what Hell ISN'T.

In the mind of most folks, even Christians, the major images of Hell are those of Dante Alighieri's epic poem THE DIVINE COMEDY.

Although it is considered by many to be a major work of western literature, The Divine Comedy is by no means based upon sound Biblical doctrine or study.
The work is divided into sections; INFERNO being the first. It's a tale of a man who is taken on a tour of the world of the damned, all nine levels of it if I remember correctly. The images are ridiculous in the extreme.

For example, in the upper level of Hell we are treated to a scene of supposed torture where the inhabitants are forced to wallow in pools of mud.
People do that today for fun and entertainment.
In a lower level, the inhabitants of Hell are buried upside down in deep holes. Only their legs stick out from the calves to their feet. Some torturing angel goes around setting fire to the soles of their feet. The image was copied by George Lucas in his sci fi movie STAR WARS; The Return of the Jedi.
I could go on, but my point is that Dante's images of Hell are silly if not pathetic in comparison to the warnings we've been given by Christ Himself.

One more thing to consider is that the flames of Hell are not red, orange and yellow as is commonly supposed. They are black. Consider the pains of human experience; hunger, disease, or hitting your thumb with a hammer.

What color was the pain?

No color at all. Pain is something beyond description as is the penalty of sin without repentance and remission.

Only the blood of Christ can free a man of the power of sin and insure that the suffering of Hell remain a distant topic of academic discussion instead of a personal disaster.