The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

Truther said:

Matt 1:25 says ....”....he knew her not until..”
Right, sometimes a fella has to wait until the right time. Only a celibate priest would be puzzled by this statement in Matt.
....not one shred?

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Nope - not ONE SHRED.

However - since you are pretending that I haven't already educated you about this - here is my response from post #1388 to refresh your memory, Einstein:

Did Mary have other children after Jesus? The Bible does NOT support this idea. Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'

Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool? Ignorant anti-Catholics like YOU attempt to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago.

Finally, Mary’s question to the Angel is very telling about her intention to remain a virgin:

Luke 1:34: Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
Mary was a betrothed girl who knew about marital relations. She didn’t say “How can this be, since I have not known a man?” She said “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

She was stating her intention to remain a virgin and was puzzled by Gabriel’s announcement that she was to have a child. She knew that God was aware of her intentions. Her bewilderment and the words “I do not know”, as opposed to “I have not known”, is clear evidence that she had no intention of having marital relations.

You lose because you're Scripturally-bankrupt . . .

justbyfaith said:

What scripture does this?

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READ the verses I gave you. What's wrong with you??
Here they are:
Matt. 27:56 says, "…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome."

Finally, John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister (adelphe), Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

justbyfaith said:

Clearly, this is saying that they had sexual relations after Jesus was born.

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"Clearly" - it's NOT.
As I educated YOU and your buddy @Truther - the use of "until" (heos) doesn't automatically determine that there is a subsequent action.
I gave you a few verses to prove this. Here is another . . .

Deut. 34 says: So Moses, the servant of the Lord, died there in the land of Moab as the Lord had said. He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab near Beth Peor, but no one knows his exact burial place until ('ad) this very day.

Did somebody LATER find out where Moses was buried??
NO, because in Biblical language - "until" doesn't always determine that something happened AFTER the fact.

justbyfaith said:

Yes, He will come and dwell among us according to the Book of Revelation and other scriptures.

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No - He returns ONCE to gather His Church to be with Him Heaven forever.

justbyfaith said:

I sincerely doubt it; for she was espoused to Joseph.

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Yes, it's clear that YOU have a LOT of doubts about Scripture - hence, your perverse twisting of the Trinitarian doctrine . . .

justbyfaith said:

Not really...for the Bible also teaches that Jesus violated the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

Jesus may have indeed had reasons based in the love of God for disrespecting His mother...for example, so that people wouldn't go overboard hyper-exalting Mary. It has availed for those who have seen it and become Protestants.

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That's a LIE.

Jesus showed that he DIDN'T violate the Sabbath by rebuking the Pharisees and exposing the fact that they didn't understand the purpose of the Sabbath. He also reminded them that HE is the LORD of the Sabbath. And He NEVER disrespected His Mother in ANY way because He lived a perfect life. He didn't "violate" anything.

ADD this to your litany of blasphemies . . .

Truther said:

New kind of Catholic?

I am 58, and in my childhood in San Jose CA, we had to.

I spent hours over those years in front of "Mary" on my knees, with candles lit around her and an offering box at her feet.

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Then you were an idolator.
An ignorant idolator - but an idolator nonetheless . . .

Truther said:

New kind of Catholic?

I am 58, and in my childhood in San Jose CA, we had to.

I spent hours over those years in front of "Mary" on my knees, with candles lit around her and an offering box at her feet.

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Yep............!

I understand that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was Catholic years ago......... and had to do some of that stufff,,,,

And other things........... Back then it was not nice............ I sure hope they have changed.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Im 83 years old.

justbyfaith said:

Have some respect. She is probably twice your age.

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Yes, twice my age and still telling lies.
That's shameful.

You're never too old to learn.

justbyfaith said:

Just as Protestants do not follow after the Catholics in making idols out of saints, we do not make idols out of Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli. We go by what the Bible says.

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Oh, REALLY??
What do you call THIS monument to the Protestant Rebels??

I think we should stop feeding the troll, all that diabolical screeching against the mother of Jesus is nauseating.

BreadOfLife said:

Yup - just Like Mary was puzzled by the Angel's message because it was her intention to remain a virgin.

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What person about to get married intends to remain a virgin? Mary did not know that she would be the mother of the Messiah before she heard the angel's voice; so what reason would she have for intending to remain a virgin?

BreadOfLife said:

Finally, John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister (adelphe), Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

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his mother's sister and Mary the wife of Cleophas are two different people; as I explained to you before.

BreadOfLife said:

As I educated YOU and your buddy @Truther - the use of "until" (heos) doesn't automatically determine that there is a subsequent action.

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You are grasping at straws in order to defend your Catholic beliefs.

BreadOfLife said:

Yes, it's clear that YOU have a LOT of doubts about Scripture - hence, your perverse twisting of the Trinitarian doctrine . . .

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I do not twist it in the slightest...but I do believe that you are a Tritheist and therefore do not accept the preaching of the Oneness in the Trinity as I have set it forth.

BreadOfLife said:

Yes, twice my age and still telling lies.
That's shameful.

You're never too old to learn.

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You should follow Jesus' example as you see it and not disrespect your elders...

This is what is truly shameful.

BreadOfLife said:

Oh, REALLY??
What do you call THIS monument to the Protestant Rebels??

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Obedience to verse 5 below:

Pro 26:4, Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Pro 26:5, Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

BreadOfLife said:

That's a LIE.

Jesus showed that he DIDN'T violate the Sabbath

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Here is what the sabbath law dictates:

Exo 20:8, Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9, Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10, But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11, For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Here is the testimony in John:

Jhn 5:17, But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Jhn 5:18, Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

This is the testimony of the apostle John under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Notice that it does not say, "because not only did they think that He broke the sabbath..." it says what it says.

Before you get all in a huff thinking that I am saying that Jesus sinned, consider:

Heb 7:12, For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13, For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14, For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15, And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Christ was indeed Lord of the sabbath; and was not subject to the law as it had been defined in the past. As High Priest according to the order of Melchizedec, He was subject to a higher law, the law of love. He was obedient to the spirit of the law and therefore was not subject to the letter. His obedience and sinlessness was not in relation to the law; but rather in relation to the fact that He lives for ever; for He is indeed God and is therefore the Lord of the sabbath.

But the point I would make by this is that what we sometimes think is sinful is not always sinful; and what we may think is sinful for us is not sinful when we see it being acted out by the Son of God.

Therefore Jesus was not in violation of the 4th commandment when He disrespected Mary...for He is Lord, not only of the sabbath law; but of the 4th commandment also.

Zachary said:

Most churches today teach false doctrines for several reasons:
ignorance, unbelief, for popularity, for financial benefit, etc.
Only a few churches are teaching correct doctrine these days.
There is more to correct doctrine than “Jesus is Lord and Savior”.
Many Spirit-filled Christians are warning, “The church is fast asleep!”

Grace-only, cheap-grace, hyper-grace, easy-believism …
are all called antinomianism! This is the notion that a one-time
justification saves … apart from sanctification. But, this is an
incomplete understanding of God’s wonderful free gift of grace!

The problem with easy-believism is that it allows
those who are living in hypocrisy, disobedience, and sin
(i.e. those who are NOT walking in obedience)
to live comfortably with a false assurance of salvation!
This leads to the tragedy described in Matthew 7:21-23 (for example).

“… some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches,
saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives.
… they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” (Jude 4-5, NLT)

NOTE: We are talking here about believers who have received the Holy Spirit.

There are at least 10 NT verses for each of the following truths …

Believers prove they have true saving faith:
1 -- by their obedience
2 -- by practicing righteousness
3 -- by living holy lives
4 -- by having a healthy fear of God
5 -- by repenting of their occasional sins
6 –- by overcoming sin, the world, Satan, persecution
7 -- by enduring in the faith to the end of their lives

Re: #4 … If people are believing and trusting in grace-only, cheap-grace,
hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc., HOW can they be fearing God?

So, all of these verses PROVE the road to eternal life is indeed narrow,
and believers are responsible for playing their part in their salvation!
Or, shall we view these verses as merely bluffs, exaggerations, lies even?

Initially, through His grace, God gives to new believers:
Jesus’ righteousness, redemption, reconciliation, etc. and salvation.
However, this grace/salvation is NOT guaranteed to last forever!
Because ONLY their old-past-former sins have been forgiven (2 Peter 1:9).
And because NT verses warn about the possibility of losing salvation.

Some believers became “estranged from Christ”
… they had “fallen from grace” (Galatians 5:4).

Some believers are “of those who draw back to perdition” (Hebrews 10:39).

And there are many more warning verses.
.

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Easy-believism as far as salvation is concern is real, but discipleship is separate from salvation where the consequences for not looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin is to be left behind when the Bridegroom comes. So there is more at risk than losing the rewards of crowns because Paul said, he, himself, could be a castaway if he did not bring his body under subjection with His help.

If you consider by what we build on that foundation which was laid by Jesus Christ and cannot be removed, and it is on that foundation, whatever it is, that shall be judged, and those who defile the temple of God ( 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 ), their physical bodies will be destroyed as in incurring a physical death ( 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ) but yet the spirit is still saved as per 1 Corinthians 3:15. So when I read Revelations 2:18-23 on how those who do not repent will be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation and how God will judge their works with death ( unless they repent ) then I can see how easy it is to be saved which is by believing in Him so that even a child or even a babe can come to Him to be saved.

That means former believers are still saved and because they have His seal in them, they are still called to repent.. to look to Jesus for help in discerning the lies that turned them away from Him as well as His help to depart from other iniquities as well. 2 Timothy 2:13 testify that if a believer believes not any more, Jesus is faithful for He still abides and an example is given for why some became former believers, but that foundation remains as His seal does for why they are still called to depart from iniquities as per 2 Timothy 2:18-21.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.... 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So there are scripture for just cause to believe in easy believism for why discipleship has to be separate from salvation as we run that race for the high prize of our calling by faith in Jesus Christ to help us lay aside every weight & sin to be that vessel unto honor in His House in Heaven.

It would seem from scripture that if someone is a partaker of the Holy Ghost and of the good things of the word of the Lord and of the powers of the age to come, and then fall away completely from the faith; that they are eternally lost (Hebrews 6:1-8).

The point that I would make concerning this is that of those who will be condemned on the day of judgment, Jesus' words to them is "I never knew you." (Matthew 7:21-23)

This means that if you think that you were a Christian and have fallen away, chances are you were not a true Christian before; but only thought that you were.

Therefore it is important that you realize that you were never born again and that you come to Jesus for the first time.

And in this, if you thought that you were saved before but were really not; what then is the distinguishing factor between who you were before as a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow Christian and who you will be when you truly commit your life to Christ?

The answer is, Jesus is looking for in you a radical faith; in which you will walk according to His statutes and judgments because of Him (Ezekiel 36:25-27, Philippians 2:13); and in which you will walk by faith and not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7); in which you will be transformed by the renewing of your mind (Romans 12:1-2) into a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) in which the old has gone and the new has come.

Being regenerated and renewed in the Holy Ghost means that you will live a different kind of life entirely; a life of love (Romans 5:5, 1 John 3:17-18).

justbyfaith said:

It would seem from scripture that if someone is a partaker of the Holy Ghost and of the good things of the word of the Lord and of the powers of the age to come, and then fall away completely from the faith; that they are eternally lost (Hebrews 6:1-8).

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That is not what I read when you include verses 7 & 8. All I see is that a believer that sinned or was sowing to the flesh and then repented, they do not have to be water baptized again as if they need to go through that whole process to be saved again, because they are still saved. It is by repenting of iniquity with His help is how one remove the briars and thorns for why that ground would be burned away, but that ground still remaisn just as that foundation does when the wood, stubble and hay gets burned away.

Hebrews 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

In other words, it would be an open shame if Jesus had to sacrifice Himself all over again to save that repentant believer as if that one time sacrifice for sins was not good enough ( see Hebrews 10th chapter ) to have laid that foundation which scripture did say can never be removed. So if you read 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 with Hebrews 6:1-8, then you can see that the ground has indeed received the rain and thus life, but what has been grown on that ground will be judged unless they depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes to get rid of the briar and the thorns for those unrepentant saints the hard way and leaving those unrepentant saints behind as disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven at the pre great tribulation rapture event thus damned forever as vessels unto dishonor in His House, but note, they are still in His House; 2 Timothy 2:18-21.

Enow said:

at the pre great tribulation rapture event

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I know that I am changing the subject here. I will say that I have no disagreement with your above post other than what I will address here.

There is a strong possibility that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture in response to the prayers that Jesus said for us to pray in Luke 21:36; and also according to Revelation 3:10.

However, this does not also preclude that there will not be another rapture event at the mid-trib or pre-wrath juncture.

For it is written that we will be changed and our bodies made incorruptible at the last trump: can the last trump be therefore be before the seventh angelic trumpet spoken of in Revelation 11? How then is it last, if there are other trumpets blown after it?

Therefore I conclude that the rapture, and the bema seat judgment of the saints, will be at the juncture of the seventh angelic trumpet in the book of Revelation.

Be a Berean and study this out.

Truther said:

New kind of Catholic?

I am 58, and in my childhood in San Jose CA, we had to.

I spent hours over those years in front of "Mary" on my knees, with candles lit around her and an offering box at her feet.

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Which Catholic document recommends that Catholics should pray to statues?

justbyfaith said:

I know that I am changing the subject here. I will say that I have no disagreement with your above post other than what I will address here.

There is a strong possibility that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture in response to the prayers that Jesus said for us to pray in Luke 21:36; and also according to Revelation 3:10.

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Luke 21:33-36 refers to a time where the saints would be ensnared by the cares of this life along with drunkenness and that such which saints will not be at liberty to do, let alone be tempted to do during the great tribulation when they need the mark of the beast to buy & do such things. So actually, now is the time to pray that believers will not be tempted not to leave this life when the Bridegroom comes. As it is, I doubt saints will hardly be tempted not to leave during the great tribulation when Satan will be waging a war against the saints that take not the mark to buy & sell.

Revelation 3:10 speaks of that hour that will try all upon the earth with that mark of the beast thing to buy & sell to survive so for God to keep them from that hour that shall try all upon the earth, those saints will not be on that earth.

However, this does not also preclude that there will not be another rapture event at the mid-trib or pre-wrath juncture.

For it is written that we will be changed and our bodies made incorruptible at the last trump: can the last trump be therefore be before the seventh angelic trumpet spoken of in Revelation 11? How then is it last, if there are other trumpets blown after it?

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All I see in Revelation 11th chapter at a glance is that only the 2 witnesses will be taken up at that time after their resurrection before God judges those wicked people that had rejoiced over the death of those 2 witnesses. Unless you are signifying that voice from Heaven to be that trumpet, I do not see any verse testifying to a trumpet. Sometimes a voice from Heaven can be without sounding like a trumpet in scripture. It was that way with the Father at Jesus's water baptism as per Matthew 3:15-17. Could the trumpet signify all who will hear like the whole world? So if only those present at Jesus's water baptism heard the Father and only the two that ascended to Heaven heard that voice, there would be no reason for that voice to be like a trumpet for the whole world to hear.

There are 7 trumpets in Revelation which are to signify certain events to unfold during the great tribulation, but I think the voice from Heaven was just for those two resurrected witnesses to hear to come up hither. I don't think that was one of the seven trumpets. Revelation 4:1 has the apostle John hearing a voice talking to him like a trumpet in making announcements, but I don't think that cunts as one of the 7 trumpets either.

Therefore I conclude that the rapture, and the bema seat judgment of the saints, will be at the juncture of the seventh angelic trumpet in the book of Revelation.

Be a Berean and study this out.

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Seeing how Revelation 8th chapter starts the topic of the seven angels with each a trumpet to sound... I believe I have discerned that the sounding of the seventh trumpets is the same as the breaking of the seven seals as you have to break them all at once for the scroll to be unraveled and be revealed, and so the sounding of the trumpet can happen within a very short period of time in testifying to what will take place in setting up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth as one third of the earth will be burned up along with one third of mankind which could very well be the entire western hemisphere which is one third of the earth. When I read about the 7 trumpets in chapter 8 & 9 & 10, and I read about Revelation 18th chapter for the fall of Babylon ( USA ) in detail of the left behind saints and for that to happen by the second of the 3 angels that will herald that fall of Babylon ( Revelation 14:8 ) after the first angel spread the everlasting gospel everywhere ( Revelation 14:6-7 ) after the rapture including the living among men that are virgins Christians that will make up Jesus's personal choir that will follow Him everywhere ( Revelation 14:1-5 ), then we can see that calamity of the 7 trumpets bringing all this about at the time of the second angel whereby the third angel warns every living soul on earth of the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell which is the lake of fire ( Revelation 14:9-11 ).

I may be prophesying in part and so I may not know the whole thing well enough, but from what I have been able to discern, the 7 trumpets are what brings about the conditions of the earth for why the new world order and the mark of the beast will come as those 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth because everyone will know the gospel and then one third of the earth is burned up, and then every one will know the consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire.

So I am still seeing only a pre great tribulation rapture and the resurrection of the saints coming out of the great tribulation is when Jesus has already been on the earth as it will be after Satan is defeated & in the pit for a thousand years.

"First resurrection" was just to signify that resurrection to happen "first" before the rest of the dead will be resurrected at the great white throne judgment when everybody else will be judged. That resurrection after the great tribulation is actually the second harvest of left behind & new saints reaping a glorified terrestrial resurrection and not of the firstfruits of the resurrection which came before the great tribulation came.

Although, it does look like those 2 witnesses taken up after they were resurrected during the great tribulation will be of that firstfruit reward, but I do not think the 144,000 witnesses will be given that same regard, but I will know for sure when I see Him face to face..

Enow said:

All I see in Revelation 11th chapter at a glance is that only the 2 witnesses will be taken up at that time after their resurrection before God judges those wicked people that had rejoiced over the death of those 2 witnesses.

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I was actually referring to Revelation 11:15-19. If you compare these verses to 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, I believe that you will see that there is a rapture at the last or seventh angelic trumpet and that the bema seat judgment of the saints occurs at that time. So it is not only the two witnesses who are caught up in that moment; but it is the moment that the whole of the church will be raptured. While those who are designated as Philadelphia and who overcome by keeping the word of His patience will very likely be raptured 3 1/2 years before.

Enow said:

I believe I have discerned that the sounding of the seventh trumpets is the same as the breaking of the seven seals

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No; for the seven trumpets occur as the result of the seventh seal being broken, if you will look at it more carefully.

Enow said:

So I am still seeing only a pre great tribulation rapture

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I also see it; but not only a pre-tribulation rapture but very likely a mid-trib or pre-wrath rapture also (or only), at the seventh or last angelic trumpet.

Truther said:

Because John was standing right there and was Jesus' biggest fan.

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I can tell you put a lot of thought into that argument

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